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Comments
-Frank
When I mentioned dealer tricks, they were- (stopped to ask for price, they offered a test drive, I drove and said that I am going to wait untill price drops with release of 2005, they said they can give me a better price, just come on in, so I walk in, they write in big letters MSRP, I dont say a word, they substract 1500 of MSRP, I dont say a word, they ask if I like the price, I say - no, I can do better than that somewhere else, at the time 100 under invoice at Fitzmall, they leave to talk to manager, mentioning that they are working hard for me to put me in the car tonight, they come back with 500 over invoice, I say no, they invite the manager, who starts talking that its not the price of the car but its value which I should look for, I say no, he talks about my family and my wife, mentions that I must not love my wife if I dont want buy such a safe vehicle for my family, thats where I say, enough, whats your final price he drops to 400 over invoice, and keeps talking about paying commissions, keeping lights in the dealership, feeding kids and putting them through college, at which moment I say no, and get up. He says - take the car for a weekend and see if you like it, I have to pry their hands off of me and leave, they stick a bunch of business cards in my pockets, and then call for 3 days, but dont drop the price. This repeats in 3 dealerships with small variations.)
So theoretically it is possible that you can get a better deal somewhere else, practically for me it wasnt.
As for Fitzmall discounting every month, I dont know what incentives are there, but I only saw the price drop when incentives increased, FWIW other dealers dont immediately share those incentives, so in my experience they are worse. I wont be surprised that my next subie comes from Fitz and I'll save my time huggling with dodgy dealers.
Some people like to haggle, lots do actually. But I saw an investigative report where men were given lower bottom-line prices than women, for instance. It would also depend on the negotiating skills of the individual.
From my (relatively little) experience, I just kept finding surprises every time I'd buy a car. Sure, price was great, then they'd tack on some other fee or try to add freight a 2nd time. Plus there was pressure to buy on the spot.
YMMV.
-juice
That sounds like some BAD experiences. I'm curious, though, did you shop on the internet elsewhere? That's how I was able to obtain my low prices. I certainly wouldn't sit there and get berated like that, I just email a dealer, ask them what their price is, and if they don't give me a straight answer, either email them back or just say forget it. When I'm ready to buy, I look at whoever sent me the best quote by email, and that's that.
In your case though it sounds like you got a very good deal at Fitz anyway. I think that's great, I bet that happens with some frequency. I'm done with this topic now but the ONLY point I was trying to make is that to listen to some, you'd think you would always get the best price at that dealership, and in MY experience that has not been the case. I was trying to warn people to not just shop there and assume they did the best they could.
So in a way you are not talking about haggling for price but shopping for the best price, using email. Well, thats why fitzmall is so good - the prices are listed, actual prices of actual vehicles. By the way, I think Fitz has some kind lowest price garantee, if you can buy the car cheaper somewhere else, they will pay you reward, I didnt check into it, you might want to.
My subaru dealership is a bit closer to my heart and I had some relationships built there so I accepted a slightly less favorable deal in order (not UNDER invoice) to let the guy make some money, but again, he knew I had an invoice offer in hand from another dealer and a carsdirect price, so very little wiggle room.
Even with an internet quote - there's no guarantee they won't tack on processing fees after you agree on a price for the vehicle. Do you mention that specifically in your e-mail quote request?
Thing is, to me the no-surprises, good buying experience is worth something. I'd rather spend $100 more and not feel like I needed a shower after an ugly deal.
-juice
That's true. I know for a fact that other local Subie dealers use Fitz prices as a barometer for their own pricing. I've heard many a dealer say that they will meet or beat Fitz prices.
That being the case, I'd rather reward Fitz for setting the standard, even if it costs me a few $$.
I feel the same about Subaru. They've set the standard for AWD vehicles that average people can afford. Now everyone is jumping on the AWD bandwagon. I'd rather support Subaru for being first, and for continuing to be the leader in that field.
Bob
Exactly what I was trying to say, only more succinct.
Thanks for making me look bad. LOL
-juice
I have had good experience with Subie dealers though, we basically had our choice of 3 dealers that we could have bought the Forester from, all of them under invoice and quick with their quotes on the first email. Just chose the closest one.
I've had trouble getting quotes from Chrysler/Dodge dealers, GM guys are a mixed bag. The Maxx I just bought was great, and in the quote the dealer wrote quite clearly "no doc fee." He even faxed me the actual shipping invoice to prove he was giving me the entire holdback.
I agree that sometimes its worth it to pay a tad more than to give you business to a sleazy dealer who you never really trust.
Not so Honda. Koons says it is, but their web site is NEVER updated with pricing, they always say "Call". :-(
-juice
Excellent leftover Forester bargains in New Hampshire - at some dealers. I'm getting a 2004 Forester XT, silver, premium package (auto, sun roof, leather)
MSRP: $28,240
Invoice: $26,073
Factory incentive: $1250
Additional discount
(from their holdback): $530
Final price: $24,293
plus paperwork fee
no sales tax in NH
Can't wait to pick it up!!
- Steve
Better be *real quiet* when you sneak up and try to swap cars. My daughter and the dog already have big plans to fold down the seat backs and camp out in it every night!
Not to add to the pain, but I could have had the XT with no leather or sun roof for $22,100. I still don't know how they can be selling it that cheap unless it was a 5-speed and not an auto.
- Steve
-juice
Steve, Host
$25,851 (invoice) + tax, title, etc. then minus $1250 rebate? Does the rebate get applied after tax is added to the figure? The car has approx. 50 dealer/lot miles on the odometer...
Thanks!
elissa
The price David (dtos01) quoted is $24,601 ($25,851 - $1250) after the rebate.
DaveM
It can vary by state, though, many states do not tax you on the rebate amount.
-juice
The dealer will knock off $3,350 ( includes $1,250 rebate ). Dealer called back today & was willing to drop another $500 because they low balled my trade last night.
I am going to try & sell the car myself & then come back to the dealer for the lowest price.
Also wondering about rust-proofing....I live in NYS and they use a lot of salt on the roads. I have not owned a Subaru before & don't know how much rust-proofing is done when they are built.
Thanks in advance for your help-
My one regret is that I agreed to a window tint job, and its price was added into the sale and the loan. Now, having belatedly learned a lot about window tints, I have changed my mind. I know what kind of tint I really do want, but it is not what the dealer offers.
The tint installation is not scheduled yet. This weekend I emailed my sales rep and asked if it was possible to arrange for the brand of tint I want, which is Huper Optik ceramic. I think this looks like a superior product to the Solar Gard film the dealer uses. I know it is more expensive.
The response, which did not surprise me, was no. Their tint supplier doesn't carry it. "Never heard of it" was the actual response, which is not credible to me.
I feel personal responsibility for agreeing to an unspecified tint job without researching it first, and I understand that this is a high-markup item for the dealer. Given all that, I didn't just say, "I've changed my mind. Please give me my money back."
Instead, I suggested that they just cancel out the tint job and apply those dollars to a retail credit in their own parts/service dept. (I'm sure there are healthy margins there, too.) That way, since they can't provide the tint product I really want, I would just shop it independently. But they would keep the same amount of business on other accessory goodies. Seemed like a win-win deal to me.
The sales rep first said that seemed reasonable, but then came back after checking with the bad cops (sales manager and business manager) and said no-can-do. They said the tinting supplier has already been paid for the job. <Rolling my eyes>
I ended up sending an email to all three, saying thanks but no, I choose not to take delivery on the tint job. No matter what, it is now a net negative to me (even if it were free) because it would preclude installation of the higher-quality product I really want.
I left it up to the dealer to rectify their own <ahem> accounting with the tint provider, and to give me whatever refund or consideration I may be due. If they think that is zero, then I asked them to just say so.
I think this can be analyzed on several different levels:
* What is legal?
* What is ethical?
* What sort of aftertaste will I have when I fill out Subaru of America's customer satisfaction survey?
What do others think?
Warning: I'm going to play Devil's Advocate as far as the tint goes. I am not sugar coating this at all.
Technically, you ordered the tint and they might have scheduled it and pre-paid, or at least left a deposit. They have a good will relationship with their tint installer and probably just don't want to cancel it.
Here's another thing - they may have made your deal with the profit margins for the tint job in mind, i.e. that might be a good portion of the only profit they made on your sale.
From that perspective, a deal is a deal. You agreed to it and the only one breaking their promise, legally and ethically, is ... you.
But let's step back a bit. What can/should you do?
I have SolarGard film on my Forester, have for 6 years now. It's been great. No fading, no turning purple, no bubbling. It's been great, actually.
I've never heard of "Huper Optik ceramic" tint, it sounds a bit like snake oil to me, so I don't think they were lying when they told you they never heard of it. If SolarGard has worked well for them all this time why wouldn't they stick with it?
I saw the same thing about 5 years ago, people that paid more for metallic-based films kept saying my SolarGard dyed film would fade and turn purple.
When? 20 years from now? I wish I'd made a bet. They'd owe me a cold beer right about now!
Go with the SolarGard, why not? My wife had it on her 626 for several years and she had no problems, either. Ask for warranty information in writing, and make sure the tint installation is perfect.
SolarGard is fine, looks great on my Forester. Here are some pics:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291908527&p=4243265717- &idx=17
This one shows it next to a non-tinted Legacy:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291908527&p=4257080942- &idx=11
-juice
I would get the dealer tint, most likely it's a reputable installer that they use. I had my tint done aftermarket on my own but used my dealer-suggested shop. The shop the dealer used also happened to be the shop my friends with tint jobs recommended and the shop recommended on all the local discussion boards. But I would find out about warranties, most of the product suppliers offer a lifetime warranty. To me, and honorable warranty on a mediocre product is better than none on a great product. At worst, it's equivalent.
Elissa
Let me just say that I am convinced by my own research that Huper Optik, http://www.huperoptik.com/Automotive.asp?cat=NaviAuto.inc a relatively new ceramic-based technology, is a superior product. Huper Optik ceramic tints tend to be installed on high-end BMWs, Lexus, Infiniti, etc., at a premium price. I'm sure Solar Gard makes a good product, but I don't think it is as good as the newer Huper Optik product.
More to the point, the Solar Gard tint is not what I want.
Given that, what is at issue here is the "buying experience" and what constitutes best business practices on both sides.
In fact, you should know that the car deal was in no way contingent on the tint add-on. I know that the tint package is a high-margin item for the dealer, and I can't blame them for wanting to maximize their profit. But we first made the handshake deal on the car price with or without "Business Manager" add-ons.
I do feel some personal responsibility for naively agreeing to the dealer's tint package. Shame on me for not doing my homework first. However, I think that in the ordinary course of business, the customer has a certain privilege -- if not a right -- to be fickle. I am now exercising the inherent right of any customer to say, "Thank you very much, but that is not what I want after all. What can you do for me in the way of a refund, credit or other consideration?"
I doubt seriously that except for the hassle factor, the dealer has incurred any out-of-pocket costs with their outsourced tint supplier. Since they routinely do business with that supplier, I'm sure the bean counters can find a way to undo the order if money has, in fact, changed hands.
My approach with the dealer, from the time I changed my mind, has been to seek some win-win way out of this that gives them something for their trouble.
But all those suggestions have been rebuffed. The dealer's position is in effect, "No. We already have your money. You must accept the tint job you originally ordered."
I took no offense at these negotiating tactics until yesterday, when they pulled the ploy of "we already paid the tint dude." Now I am more inclined just to say, "I've changed my mind. Please just give me my money back."
Legally, perhaps I can't force them to give me a refund or dealer credit; I'm certain they can't force me to accept delivery of the tint job.
Ethically, I think it's a standoff.
Psychologically, this is turning an excellent buying experience into a very sour one.
I'd fax the owner and/or general manager and tell them that the situation is relatively minor but is fast souring your experience with the dealer. They can read between the lines that you'll tell everyone you meet about your experience.
Jobs get cancelled all the time - the tint installer will survive.
Try asking the salespeople over in Any Questions for a Car Dealer? too - often people say there's no deal until the car leaves the lot, but I don't know how true that is.
Oh, the Window Tinting board has been reopened too :-)
Steve, Host
But I also have to wonder why the big deal in the first place? What's wrong with Solargard? Sure Huper Optik makes their product sound wonderful but I'm pretty sure that the difference between the two products is negligible. Of course if you "MUST" have only the best most "gold-plated" version then I suppose it fits the bill.
-Frank
I saw the post in another thread that had a link to Huper Optik, so they're legit it seems, but I'd still never heard of them until today.
OK, gotcha on the car deal, so it was done before you ordered the tint. Hmm, I guess the dealer could cancel the order and charge maybe a small penalty (a deposit maybe?). That seems reasonable, but I do still think it's up to the discretion of the dealer.
Sounds like you want the best possible tint, cost no object, and you're convinced that the ceramic type is best, so go for it.
Call 800-SUBARU3 and tell them about this, see if they can mediate and help you obtain a full refund.
I really think the dealer just didn't make any money on your sale, but sort of recovered on the tint deal, and just doesn't want to give up what was likely the only profit he'd make at all on the whole deal.
-juice
Meanwhile, today the dealer is adopting a more reasonable position, and I am optimistic about a copacetic resolution of the issue. I'll let you know how it turns out.
-juice
I am quite satisfied, and grateful that the dealer humored my change of mind. My gratitude will be reflected in top marks for the dealer on the SoA customer satisfaction survey, which they seem to take quite seriously.
Now, if you get that exotic ceramic-based tint, you gotta share pics!
-juice
I just want to ask you some questions.We just got back from the local subaru dealer and now are even more confused than we were before.I want to know why these subarus are 1) so expensive 2)are still selling at close to MSRP for a 04 before rebates.We have been looking for a wagon now for about a month,and have test driven a forester XS w/premium pack automatic,a 04 legacy 35th ann edition auto(didn't like it),and both the Mazda6 sport wagon,and Mazda3 HB.We have been getting prices to buy these cars that vary from $20180 plus the dealer paying off our trade(00 protege ES),and an interest rate of 3.9% so payments would be around $370 a month for a mazda 6 wagon w/auto and bose stereo pack.Also we got these quotes from the local subie dealer $22431 on a 04 forester XS after the $1500 rebate,and $22966 on a XS premium w/cloth that was a dealer demo w/4200 miles on it.They gave us a ballpark figure on buying these cars and said around $20 per thousand financed so around $440 for the XS and a bit more for the premium.I then asked them what the difference was between the X and the XS.They told us not much aside from the alloys,drums in the rear,no 6 cd changer,no heated mirrors,seats, heated wipers on the front,no limited slip,and no white option on the 05's.We asked then about leasing the 04 XS's and I will tell you I was not impressed with the figures.The residual was really low for the XS premuim at $11450 for a 3 year 15k a year lease with a money factor of .00220(5.28%) and payments of $443 a month tax included.The salesperson then told me that subaru was offering better lease numbers on the 05 X models and that they were offering $1500 incentive until monday on these.They had a cap cost figure of $22046 on a black 05 X w/auto,armrest ext,rubber mat in the rear with a MF of .00120(2.8%) residual of $10940 and a payment of $347 inc tax with zero down.Subaru makes the first payment,and $350 due at signing for doc fees tags and tax on the $1500 rebate which is shown as a downpayment.
My wife is worried about leasing because she is afraid of going over the miles(unlikely),and that our son will tear the car apart(he is 2 as of writing-highly likely).I was wondering what you guys thought of our predicament?I am leaning toward the 05 X lease or maybe at looking at buying a 04 X with the $1500 rebate,or maybe even at the Mazda6 wagon due to us having all mazdas for the past few years,and a $500 customer loyalty bonus voucher.
Would the X model be a good choice or is it a bad investment?We are comparing the X we took home as a demo to her current ride,and the only major differences are the alloy wheels on the mazda,the moonroof on the mazda,and the fact that the subie has AWD.The dealer told me if we did the deal before monday that we could wait for the color that we want to come in if we didn't like the black w/textured grey lower one they had.Sorry to be long winded.Any input would be appreciated.I know most on this forum will tell us go with the subie.Thanks in advance.
Chris and Becky
I just checked fitzmall.com, well known in these parts for no-haggle, aggressive internet pricing, and found only a handful of 2004s left. There was one 2004 XS at substantially below the numbers you quote, but the 2004 pickings are slim.
If you are in driving distance of the mid-Atlantic, check out fitzmall. That's what I did 6 weeks ago for a 2004 XT, and my Texas dealer essentially made a competitive offer.
You might also shop the lease terms independently online at www.leasecompare.com .
The only thing I think she will miss is the moonroof of her mazda,and I think I will miss the alloy wheels a bit,but then again we can get aftermarket ones.What are your thoughts on the X model?I wanted the XS package but really when it comes down to it my wife has had rear drums on her car all these years so that is no big deal,and heated seats are no big deal to us.I did like the heated wipers,mirrors,and limited slip on the XS but they are no big deal either.I think the AWD will make up for the small things missing from her mazda to this new car.Any input is appreciated.
Chris
a. "They were offering $1500 off until tomorrow" That's a classic high-pressure sales tactic and is usually total bunk. Especially since it's not the end of the month (when most promotions expire). The vast majority of the time, whatever deal you negotiate today is going to be just as valid tomorrow. Injecting a sense of urgency into the price negotiations is often used to coerce a buyer into making a rushed decision and one that they might avoid if afforded the opportunity to sleep on it.
b. Even the 05s are selling for significantly less than 5% over invoice so I would think you'd be able to get an 04 at close to straight invoice (and then subtract $1500). This sounds like another shifty sales tactic where the salesman tries to convince you that they would be losing money if they sold for less but neglects to mention that SOA is ponying up the $1500 rebate, not the dealer.
c. Finally, I am not a fan of leasing since it almost never makes sense financially. In fact, you even make a fairly convincing argument against it yourself by pointing out that kids can be rough on cars (and if it's leased that means more money out of your pocket down the road). Plus it doesn't make much sense to personalize your new ride by getting alloy wheels or installing a moonroof when you know that it doesn't really belong to you.
Okay after getting the negatives out of the way I'll end on a more positive note... the X is the value leader of the two and definitely gives you the most bang for the buck. The XS is nice but rear LSD and disk brakes don't make that much of a difference and if you don't need heated seats or mirrors, then there's no reason to pay extra for them.
-Frank
The X has styled steel wheels that IMHO look just fine, I wouldn't bother changing them unless you really wanted a 2nd set of rims, maybe for winter tires, or you wanted to go Plus One.
You got a full size spare, the Mazda would've had a donut.
You also have space for toes under the front seats, not so in the Mazda6.
You will love the break-away mirrors, which the Mazda6 lacks. First hit and they'd break, all right.
Even with the V6, Mazda's peak torque only comes at a sky high 5000 rpm. Some drivers never even get there. Subies peak a lot sooner, 4000rpm.
And despite the X being the "base" model, you're still getting AWD, ABS, side air bags that protect your head, 20 stars in NCAP testing, IIHS Best Pick and Good ratings front and side, best bumpers in the class (IIHS again), two trip odometers, outside temp gauge, 2 sun glasses holders, etc.
I think you'll find more and more little surprises and have a growing fondness for your Subie.
Congrats again.
-juice
Don't worry, be happy.
-juice
I took the $26,105, and knocked off the $1,500 for Cash Back to Dealer thru Sept 30. $24,605.
I've been on the lot of our local dealer when they were not open, and the above numbers are for the ones on their lot plus or minus $100 for different options. I thought maybe an "offer" of $24,800 might be reasonable.
I get an email this morning. They want $24,795.
I almost get the feeling I'm missing something in the equation.
Thanks for any thoughts.
They gotta eat, man! ;-)
Run, don't walk, and buy one.
-juice
Oh yeah the dealer has a program where if you get the car serviced with them at their set intervals(3750 miles between oil changes-severe duty schedule)then you will qualify for their tires for life program,loaner car,and something else.Is it worth paying for these services to get these so called "freebies" when the manual says 3000 for the 1st then 7500 there after?Thanks again
Chris&Becky
-Frank
-juice
However, I'm looking for a 2004 or 2005 Subaru Forester X and I can't find any dealer that has a better quote than Fitzmall.
It won't always be the lowest, but some times it will.
-juice