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...just bought a new Jetta GLI a few weeks ago. It's quite an impressive little ride. FAST! Too bad the Cobalt didn't have as nice an interior as the GLI. Chevy dealers would run out of them in an afternoon. The GLI, however, is quite expensive around $30K. I wish him luck with it. My experience with VW hasn't been too good but I'm not going to say anything to rain on his parade.
Most VW owners absolutely LOVE their cars for over 150,000 miles of trouble free driving and would not want to be in a Chebby, Furd or any of the Aisan offerings.
A German roadcar is what many folks settle for and nothing less will do.
I am still LOVING my >55MPG Jetta. It is wonderful to travel over 600 miles between fillups (with AC on and all the amenities to make the trip worthwile)
After having two VW's I am now a Subaru owner, having recently purchased a Legacy GT. Admittedly, the new Jetta is a nice looking car both inside and out. However, I just wasn't willling to roll the dice with another VW. My 1990 Jetta was awesome, but my 1999 GTI was terrible. In my opinion, VW's start to fall apart sooner than a Japanese car.
Most VW owners absolutely LOVE their cars for over 150,000 miles of trouble free driving
(cough)
"A few", ok. "A bunch", maybe. "Many", questionable. "Most" defies reason. VW has been pumping out the Lemon Parade for decades now, and the numbers to back this up are as close as the latest quality surveys.
VW has been pumping out the Lemon Parade for decades now
I thought that award was held by Toyota & Honda. At least until the 1990s when supposedly they improved QC. I think the VW wrap is trash talk from Toyota and Honda because they cannot build cars that compete on any level except boring.
"I thought that award was held by Toyota & Honda. At least until the 1990s when supposedly they improved QC. I think the VW wrap is trash talk from Toyota and Honda because they cannot build cars that compete on any level except boring."
I don't remember much from before 1990, but my parents had a couple of VWs before that transition into modernity. The Bug got rear ended and its engine crunched, not its fault. The Squareback did some heroic drives but wasn't a great car in any way (except in a "she's gonna blow!" sort of excitement way) before dying in the desert.
I know a ton of people with modern VWs (well ok, a dozen) and only three of them have ever had all their lights and windows working at any one time. Two of those have Passats, which don't seem to have many problems, and the other is a mechanic (with a Golf). On the other hand everyone I know in Spain who has a VW (another half-dozen) loves them.
Four of the nine unhappy VW owners I know have already bought a Honda or Toyota. One of those souped up his Honda and loves it, the other three do recall having a lot more fun in their VWs but wouldn't go back.
So looking at people I know with cars on the Golf platform, only 1 out of 10 has been reliable. As anecdotal evidence this shouldn't be taken too seriously, but I am not entirely unsupersticious... I'm staying away.
(Oh and in the 90s I drove Toyotas from the 80s, and they were not boring! They were reliable too, otherwise people in the 90s wouldn't have been buying so many of them.)
A coworker of mine had a Honda Accord and he replaced it with a new VW Jetta. Seemed odd for a guy to replace a car that has a stellar reputation for reliability with one with a marginal one. However, he seems to be happy. I guess boring reliability isn't everything.
I'm reading the JD Powers quality ranking in the O.C. Register dated 6/8/06. According to the survey Porsche is best with only 91 problems per 100 cars sold. Volkswagen is 3rd worst with 171 problems per 100 cars sold. The only brands worse are Isuzu and Land Rover with 204 problems. Now comes the problem for me: The survey rates Acura, Lincoln and Chrysler dead even with 120 problems per 100 cars sold. For me it's hard to believe that Acura is not better than Chrysler, therefore it seems that this survey is not quite accurate. Jaguar is rated 1 point better than Honda. We don't have any German cars but I hate to see the brand tarnished, especially if the picture we get isn't quite right. By the way Hundai is rated with only 102 problems, better than Toyota, Honda, Infinity or Nissan. There is a lot of money involved here and some explanations might be in order.
For me it's hard to believe that Acura is not better than Chrysler, therefore it seems that this survey is not quite accurate.
Why can't Chrysler be better than Acura in this survey?
I'm sure it is accurate in what it measures. Whether what it measures is of any value or significance is another matter.
In addition cars with more features have more potential problems, so this may have something to do with Acura's results. VWs also comes with a lot of standard features so this may be part of the reason for higher incidence of problems for them as well.
Your own bias shows that even if other manufacturers improve, based on objective measures, many won't believe it anyway. Do you think it is impossible for Honda (Acura) to decline and/or some other company to improve?
What the data really show is there is not much difference between any of these cars. I don't see a real significant difference across the range of 90 to 180 "problems" per 100 vehicles. Our Jetta had 4-5 "problems" in the first couple months, all were minor and all were taken car of in one visit. These "problems" were a non-isue to me. It really did not matter much if there were 1 or 10 of these sort of issues.
Having to get the transmission fixed after 9 months and 10,000 miles was another matter. Nevertheless, it was fixed.
I find it hard to believe that Honda and Acura aren't rated better than Jaguar in the JD Powers quality survey, or that Acura is even with Lincoln because when I read the forums for Jags and Licolns horror stories abound. When I read the Infinity FX forums everyone there loves their cars without a single major complaint but Infinity stands behind Jaguar in the survey. Consumers Reports will back up my statements as well. My beef is that many people will decide upon what brand to buy based on these surveys but the surveys are not accurate, my bias or not. We always had Japanese cars in the last 20 years and they were wonderfully reliable and thoroughly boring, now I'm ready to get something I might actually enjoy, (a VW GTI with DSG transm) and JD Powers slams the brand with the 3rd worst rating.
Honda and Toyota's equivalents to the VW GTI have hardly been boring. If you bought an equivalent to a 115hp Golf or Jetta then no wonder you were bored... but a base Golf isn't anything to write home about either.
Again...I'm sure it is accurate in what it measures. Whether what it measures is of any value or significance is another matter.
Anyone who gives any weight to this survey of the number of problems in the first 90 days, or whatever, is a fool, imo. It is a silly measurement and their is not much of a difference between the worst and the best, anyway.
We did not even fill out the stupid thing when we got it, as it was too long and full of dumb questions. We kept the $1 anyway .
CR survey is not all that much better. I found that out a long time ago when I was a subscriber and saw what they actually ask. It is way to subjective, imo.
If you are talking about actual meaningful problems (which is not what JD powers initial quality survey measures), I think you are right about Jaguar. But my agreement is based more on having looked at the cost of an extended warranty for an X-type, when my wife thought she wanted one of those.
What I'm trying to say is that we need a more objective measure of reliability than the J.D. Powers or the Consumers Reports' surveys. It should be possible to obtain some meaningful data figures from the manufactures. What I have in mind is the precise dollar amount spent on warranty repairs during the first 3 or 5 years of ownership, the average amount spent per car, money spent on repairs by the manufacturer. The amount should be somehow adjusted to the cost of the new car because obviously Porsche parts are more expensive than parts for a Kia, and the cost of labor isn't the same either. Nevertheless, the money spent per car on the average could tell consumers, maybe as a percentage point of the M.S.R.P, what to expect in way of repairs down the road as the miles roll by. This would not be a true or scientific prediction of future repair costs, but it might be better than the current system of superficial surveys which in my opinion are not worth a lot. This survey could be conducted by the Federal government and published yearly - think freedom of information act. With the computers we have today a high school kid could obtain the data in a week if the manufacturers would provide access.
Okay, now I get it...so you are essentially saying the same thing as me.
Don't you think comparing cost of an extended warranty gives a pretty good idea of that? I can get cost for the exact same warranty on different models from my credit union. (Edmunds also bases their repair cost figures on extended warranty prices.)
For instance, I got the following prices from my credit union last year:
05 Volvo S40 - 84mo/80K=1,458 84mo/100K=1939
05 Jetta – 84mp/80K=1178 84mo/100K=1563
05 Honda Accord – 84mo/80K=923 84/100K=1020
Prices are for zero deductible, named exclusion which basically means there is a list of maintenance type of repairs not covered and everything else is covered.
The Jag I mentioned before they would not even do 7 years, 6 year and (I think) 72 or 80K mi was maximum and cost was something like $2400 or $2800 or around there. I am going from memory on that one as I only got it over the phone, the other figures above are from an email that I still have.
The Accord was not a car my wife was interested in, but I got the warranty cost as my standard of comparison.
I think I will be getting information like this on cars I am interested in for myself soon. Maybe I'll throw the Jetta on to my list too, even though I do not want one, just to see if there have been any changes.
The automakers seem to have brainwashed most the the car-buying public into thinking the word "quality" is interchangable with "reliability".
There is no question that VW is more QUALITY than anything else in the pricerange. I dont care if my VW is less reliable. I would never sacrifice my values to own a Honda again.
Besides, my 4-wheel drive CIVIC blew head gaskets and had other SERIOUS engine problems. My past 6 VW have NEVER had a serious engine problem.
I want to be in a QUALITY automobile that rides nice and handles exceptionally. I also want amenities that make sense are are useful. I also want to be able to MAINTIN my car myself. Most of all - VW has 12 year - unlimited milage corrosion warante... That is IMPERITIVE in Vermont where roadsalt will destroy lesser car bodys in 4-6 years.
The Aisan makes I looked at did not ofer any of the important items I desire in a car.
I have always had the attitude: buyer beware!! It is especially when it comes to cars! Despite a whole host of advances, this has never ever been more true than now.
So let me say I own a 2003 VW Jetta TDI (75,000 miles) and a 2004 Honda Civic (29,000 miles) side by side. Both have been flawless reliability wise. I further do understand that VW has more problems per 100 than Honda for example. This of course increases the chances or likely hood of you eperiencing more problems. VW must have made a huge mistake and produced this flawless one for me. Quality wise, the truth is the VW is far and away built of better quality. It goes from what you can not see, (galvanized metal under neath the paint making it far and away more corrosion resistant) to the stuff you can see, feel, smell, etc. The Honda (for my purposes) is 5,436 dollars cheaper than the VW JETTA TDI and in fact it is more than obvious. This is both good, neutral and bad.
It is easy to zero in on specific cars for specific purposes when you know how and for what purpose it will be used. So in that sense, I have NO real concerns in owning each, side by side.
Another place where Honda (etc) does real well is in CA. We don't have the rust problem near as badly as New England type places such as Vermont for example. (I spent two years in UPSTATE NY and MD, so I do have a two/three year perspective)
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OK, here's a good one...a coworker of mine is a bigtime cheapskate (he drives a clapped out 94 Mitsu Eclipse and also has an unrestored 70s Beetle, his wife drives a bottom of the line Ion), and he wants a new car. He's also a bit of a tech geek, so he has narrowed it down between a Prius and a Jetta TDI. From his story, the VW dealer he visited locally was absolutely awful, very pushy and unwilling to even discuss pricing unless he committed to buying that day. Somehow, I wasn't surprised.
On the other hand, he says the Toyota people weren't bad.
I have not been in Toyota dealerships much, but the one time I was they were pretty snobish. When we did not want to buy one of their cars, they were like "well what else would you buy". This was back in 2000.
I would expect he would not get much discount on either of those cars, since many people are so willing to overpay for good gas (or diesel ) mileage.
Did the Toyota dealer discuss pricing of the Prius?
I have not run into any pushy car salesmen in many years, at VW dealerships or anywhere else.
I shopped with a friend in an Accord vs Camry trip in 2001...and IMO the Toyota guy was very aloof and unpleasant. The Honda guy - an older very laid back guy - was much more pleasant. He bought the Accord.
From what I understand, the Toyota guy was able to at least give some rough numbers...although they didn't have a car to demonstrate, where VW did.
I'm still very happy. We bought the 06 2.0T last October and have not had any serious problems. The compass did not work, but that has been fixed. And as far as dealer service, I took the car in to be serviced a few weeks ago. We dropped it off over the weekend while going out of town for a few days so they could get to work on it first thing on Monday. When we arrived a little after 2:00 the car was not ready. I expressed my displeasure to the service manager who promised they'd get it finished right away. We ended up waiting until a little after 4:00, but because of the delay he gave me the oil change and tire rotation. Yep, free, cost me nothing, nada, zilch. You can rest assured that I will continue doing business with this dealer.
And to further sing our car's praises, we drove it on vacation a couple of weeks ago to the mountains. We averaged a little better than 30 mpg for the trip and got as good as 35 mpg on one leg of the trip. The car is a blast to drive on the curvy mountain roads, and it hardly grunts to pull itself and all of us up even the steepest hills.
As a former Honda owner, I can truthfully say that while the Passat may be no more reliable than a Honda, and it is more expensive than a comparably equipped Accord, it is worth every dime more if the driving experience means anything at all to you.
it is worth every dime more if the driving experience means anything at all to you.
That is the part that JD Powers and CR fail to cover in their magazines. The Passat TDI is just a lot more fun to drive than a CamCord. I miss mine. I bought it to sell and did just that. If the prices ever get back to reality I may buy another one.
"it is worth every dime more if the driving experience means anything at all to you"...That is the part that JD Powers and CR fail to cover in their magazines.
That's not correct, JD Power surveys owners about these things as well. Use this link and compare whatever cars you like: JD Power
If you compare the Passat to the Accord and Camry, you will see that the VW ties with the Honda and beats the Toyota for comfort, performance and overall appeal. Where the problem lies is that the build quality ratings come well short of both the Honda and Toyota. Most Americans who buy cars in this segment value reliability and build quality over performance, if forced to make a choice.
VW ties with the Honda and beats the Toyota for comfort, performance and overall appeal.
All I have to say to that is they did not drive both the Passat TDI and Accord. There is NO comparison in handling, braking and overall performance. If you are looking for a car to be first to the next stop light, the Accord V6 is very good performer. If you like to get out on the back roads of America and drive, the Passat is way ahead of the Accord. As far as reliability, Toyota and Honda are still raking in the credit for their late 1990s vehicles. Recent offerings from both have had their share of problems. It just takes CR and JDP a long time to catch on.
So as this thread asks the question: YOUR experience with VW good or bad? Mine was Excellent!!!! Both in 1967 & 2005. How was yours?
Plus I know of 4 recent Passat horror stories, all from co-workers (4 separate cars).
In defense of Consumer Reports, they have absolutely raved about the Passat's handling, comfort, safety, and overall performance in recent years and it has always been one of their top-rated models, with one big caveat: As long as the reliability remained at least average, based on owner responses, it stayed on the recommended list. When reliability dropped below average (as was the case for recent 4-cylinder models and 4Motion models), those particular models were removed from the recommended list.
As far as reliability, Toyota and Honda are still raking in the credit for their late 1990s vehicles. Recent offerings from both have had their share of problems. It just takes CR and JDP a long time to catch on.
That's a false statement. CR does annual surveys which include a lookback for each model year of the last several, while JD Power does reliability surveys at the 90-day and 3-year mark. So the data is current, not based upon results from 8-10 years ago.
Just be honest -- you don't have a factual argument against them, you just don't like the results.
In my case the honest thing is that both were highly rated by Consumer Reports. As a matter of fact, the 1985 Toyota was purchased over the like year 1985 Accord SPECIFICALLY because it got THE better write up!!
So in my case, no I did NOT like the results. CR did NOT say "opps we made a mistake" or even; while rated outstanding, the longer term metrics didn't pan out. Some acknowledgement to that effect would have earned total forgiveness on my part. ( or maybe I am too parochial )They just progressively changed the red full dots to black and black and half dots. However long before I saw the dot changes in their subsequent publications, I experienced a WHOLE lot of premature repair bills !!! Ultimately that was app 3,000/4,000 on a car then worth 4,500 dollars !!?? To boot, a friend who had the same model year had almost uncanny similar experiences.
In my case the honest thing is that both were highly rated by consumer reports. As a matter of fact the 1985 was purchased over the like year 1985 Accord SPECIFICALLY because it got THE better write up!!
So in my case, no I didn't like the results. CR did NOT say "opps we made a mistake" or even; while rated outstanding the longer term metrics didn't pan out. They just progressively changed the red full dots to black and black and half dots.
There seems to be a fair bit of confusion about what CR does. It actually does two seperate things -- it does an owner's survey that focuses on reliability, and it seperately reviews cars. There are cars that CR obviously likes in terms of driving experience, performance, etc., but that don't get good reliability results from the survey.
The red and black dots that come from the owner's survey have nothing to do with whether CR likes the car. The one caveat is that they won't recommend a car that they like unless its reliability ratings from the owner survey are "average" or better. If memory serves, one example of this is the Nissan Titan, which is apparently their class favorite, but is so unreliable according to the owner survey that they can't recommend it.
..."The red and black dots that come from the owner's survey have nothing to do with whether CR likes the car. The one caveat is that they won't recommend a car that they like unless its reliability ratings from the owner survey are "average" or better. If memory serves, one example of this is the Nissan Titan, which is apparently their class favorite, but is so unreliable according to the owner survey that they can't recommend it"...
Of course it doesn't and neither did I say it did. However what I did say was when presented with the evidence they did NOTHING about it by way of verbiage!!!!!!
Perhaps what you are saying is that is their corporate concession after many many experiences such as mine. So as a result I take what they say with a LARGE grain of salt.
Subjective surveys of car owners are not factual arguments either. That said, if all you care about is reliability then toyota or honda have been the way to go (whether or not that will continue to be the case no one really knows). I base this on the fact of lower cost of identical extended warranties...but it is not a huge difference, just a few hundred dollars over 100,000 miles.
Who actually fills out these stupid surveys anyway? We did not fill out the JD power survey that we got...way too long and way too many silly questions.
"Who actually fills out these stupid surveys anyway? We did not fill out the JD power survey that we got...way too long and way too many silly questions."
Actually folks like YOU and me! And in your case- NOT !!
So I would surmise they work in a statistical formula to take into account for example they got 100 responses out of 10,000 sent. (just for graphic illustration here) And here is how it affects/effects the results.....
Subjective surveys of car owners are not factual arguments either.
CR lists several categories of specific items, and asks respondents to check off boxes if they've had a problem. It's more objective than subjective -- either the water pump stopped working, or it didn't.
Who actually fills out these stupid surveys anyway? We did not fill out the JD power survey that we got...way too long and way too many silly questions.
Now that is a legitimate issue. I've assembled consumer surveys before, and we tried to keep them short (preferably ten questions or less) to keep people from tuning out or hurrying through it. The CR survey is under 20 questions, but JD Power has over 200, which makes you wonder about how many respondents actually completed the entire thing.
Mine was crappy too, in 1978. I tried to buy a Dasher diesel wagon and the wait was a year. I bought a new Accord and it was nothing but trouble for all the years I owned it. Swore I would never buy another Honda.
So as this thread asks the question: YOUR experience with VW good or bad? Mine was Excellent!!!! Both in 1967 & 2005. How was yours?
2000 VW GTI = :lemon:
Seriously, even after replacing both window regulators I was always afraid to lower either side window for fear of them crashing into the door again.
How can you enjoy a car when the mere thought of opening a window gives you a feeling of dread?
That plus a broken cruise control switch, annoying door speaker rattles, failed remote door unlocking and absolutely horrendous customer service whenever the car was in the shop being fixed led to my first VW ownership experience being my last.
I own a 99 V6 Passat and has 60K miles. Things that went wrong with my car: water pump failed at 20,000 miles air bag control unit failed at 50,000 miles. antenna wire went bad at 45,000 miles. front tie-rods went bad at 55,000 miles. antenna base had to be replaced at 40k.
Only the water-pump was replaced under warranty. In my experience my wife's chevy cavalier was more reliable than my passat by a long shot.
VW makes cars that are joy to drive and the design both in and out that is superb. The new Passat is a great example. But based on my own experience, my next car will not be a VW. It's one thing to have one major thing to go wrong but to have several major things to go wrong is IMHO jut too much.
My car was recommended by CR when I purchased it. I'd like to point out that CR no longer recommends any VW cars due to their reliablitiy problems. I would have to agree.
YOUR experience with VW good or bad? Mine was Excellent!!!! Both in 1967 & 2005. How was yours?
If you scroll a few pages back, you'll probably find my stories, which I won't repeat, but to reiterate: My family's experience was crappy, with 1999 (VR6) and 2003 (TDI) VW products. Pathetic reliability, expensive repairs, crappy service departments, and arrogant sales staff. My friend's experience has been crappy, with a 2005 TDI model. Another friend's experience has been crappy, with a 2000 2.0 model. One friend used to own a 1998 2.0 model, but put very few miles on it (~5k per year), and it didn't start acting up until 2003-04 or so. With the exception of the 2004 TDI, reliability was passable, but not great, until just after the warranty expired.
I drove an Audi A3 and loved it, but there are limits to the amount of frustration I can put up with.
Yet another friend has a 2002-ish TDI, but the last time I talked to him, he had just purchased the car used. I'm still waiting for a follow-up report.
2002 Passat 1.8 T. It has been very good overall. No problems whatsoever with the car itself. The biggest problems are with the dealerships. The service is expensive and not very good. Otherwise, the car has been very good. Good gas milage, above EPA on longer drives. No problems, except the dealership.
If JD Powers was 10 questions we would have filled it out. I wonder what their response rate is?
CR lists several categories of specific items, and asks respondents to check off boxes if they've had a problem. It's more objective than subjective -- either the water pump stopped working, or it didn't.
Have they changed their survey, because it used to say "did you have a problem that you consider serious..."? That is subjective. Some people will say they had a serious problem if they had to have a $200 brake job at 50,000 miles.
CR still asks the question, "did you have a problem that you consider serious, because of safety, downtime, cost, or ____?" (I forget the last one as well as the order.)
But they do say not to include routine replacement items like brake pads, unless they occur too frequently. Also they ask to exclude battery and tire replacement, as well as repairs due to crash damage.
Yes, there is some subjectivity involved as to what is "serious," but in my mind, with over a million responders, do you think there's going to be a significant difference between say, Chevy owners and Toyota owners, in what they count as "serious?" (Maybe there would be between Chevy and Porsche owners, but these cars are in vastly different price classes except of course for the Corvette.)
I had a 99 New Jetta and most recently an 02 Passat wagon. If VW could emulate Japanese or even American car reliability, they'd have the best cars on the market. Both cars were fun to drive, offered lots of value and were well designed and used good materials.
Both were constantly in the shop and I made good use of my warranty! I just bought a new Outback and am optimistic. I just couldn't trust my VW anymore and as someone posted repairs are expensive! My dealer was OK.
I doubt I'll go back to VW because of my experiences.
Have they changed their survey, because it used to say "did you have a problem that you consider serious..."? That is subjective.
I think that 210DelRay covered this one nicely in #713. CR goes to some lengths to define what "serious" means, including a long laundry list of examples, and some specific clarifications of what makes a problem "serious".
Any survey is subject to misinterpretation or lying, but a sufficiently large survey pool should cancel out the responses from these "outliers". And there's no reason to believe that owners of different marques have a tendency to answer surveys any more or less accurately than would others. If JD Powers was 10 questions we would have filled it out. I wonder what their response rate is?
JDP claims to receive a response rate of about 50%, which would mean that it is getting about 25,000 responses for each survey (the 90-day IQS and the 3-year VDS.)
While JDP results tend to be pretty good, being that it tends to be fairly similar to the information you'll get from other sources that survey by similar means, I have to wonder how many of those 25,000 survey forms actually come back completely filled out. And really, a 50% response rate is phenomenally high -- any market research company would kill for a response rate like that -- so it really does make you wonder exactly what those responses look like.
To read the past 20 posts, you'd think that I and one other person are the only ones who've had a good experience with their VW.
Here's my contention - Take any brand of automobile and start the same discussion. Acura brand experience - good or bad? Toyota brand experience... whichever brand you choose, and my prediction is that you will have more negative posts than positive.
There is a story about a six year old who'd never spoken. His family thought he was mute until one day at lunch he said in perfect English, "My peas are cold." His dad immediately said, "Son, we didn't think you could talk." To which the boy replied, "I never had a reason to complain until now."
So it is with topics such as this - and I believe it is also the case with JD Power/CR. People who have a beef with a particular company are more likely to fill out a survey than those who have no problems, simply because they feel it is one way their voice can be heard.
I've had opportunities to fill out surveys before and quite frankly if it's more than 10 questions, I'm going to file-13 it - UNLESS I'm in the mood to complain.
Well, I've had an excellent time with my VW's... and the dealership (regular service every 5000 miles) has been great both in Palm Beach Gardens, FL and Laurel, MD.
Whereas I have never had a good experience with any Toyota dealership or Toyota vehicle, EVER.
Snotty dealers, bad test drives, poor reliability seem to be the hallmark of Toyota in my experience.
But I know Toyota is supposed to be a reliable car. I just know that hidden at Toyota corporate headquarters is my picture with a standing order to all dealerships ensuring that I will only get poor treatment and lemon cars.
:P
Whereas VW, with spotty reliability, seems to have a standing order to only sell me the best vehicles they have and to treat me like royalty.
VW just did really well in the Strategic Vision survey (surveying purchases of last October and November). I only skimmed the article (it is at Autoweek) but it seems like Toyota didn't get anywhere near the top.
Honda gave them a good run for their money, though, and VW only just squeaked by them.
FWIW, given the profusion of differing and conflicting surveys there are out there....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
VW must be doing something right. Jetta sales are up 30% this year over last. 40% of those Jettas were diesel. Of course many here would say there is no demand for diesel cars.
Comments
Most VW owners absolutely LOVE their cars for over 150,000 miles of trouble free driving and would not want to be in a Chebby, Furd or any of the Aisan offerings.
A German roadcar is what many folks settle for and nothing less will do.
I am still LOVING my >55MPG Jetta. It is wonderful to travel over 600 miles between fillups (with AC on and all the amenities to make the trip worthwile)
(cough)
"A few", ok. "A bunch", maybe. "Many", questionable. "Most" defies reason. VW has been pumping out the Lemon Parade for decades now, and the numbers to back this up are as close as the latest quality surveys.
I thought that award was held by Toyota & Honda. At least until the 1990s when supposedly they improved QC. I think the VW wrap is trash talk from Toyota and Honda because they cannot build cars that compete on any level except boring.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't remember much from before 1990, but my parents had a couple of VWs before that transition into modernity. The Bug got rear ended and its engine crunched, not its fault. The Squareback did some heroic drives but wasn't a great car in any way (except in a "she's gonna blow!" sort of excitement way) before dying in the desert.
I know a ton of people with modern VWs (well ok, a dozen) and only three of them have ever had all their lights and windows working at any one time. Two of those have Passats, which don't seem to have many problems, and the other is a mechanic (with a Golf). On the other hand everyone I know in Spain who has a VW (another half-dozen) loves them.
Four of the nine unhappy VW owners I know have already bought a Honda or Toyota. One of those souped up his Honda and loves it, the other three do recall having a lot more fun in their VWs but wouldn't go back.
So looking at people I know with cars on the Golf platform, only 1 out of 10 has been reliable. As anecdotal evidence this shouldn't be taken too seriously, but I am not entirely unsupersticious... I'm staying away.
(Oh and in the 90s I drove Toyotas from the 80s, and they were not boring! They were reliable too, otherwise people in the 90s wouldn't have been buying so many of them.)
Now comes the problem for me:
The survey rates Acura, Lincoln and Chrysler dead even with 120 problems per 100 cars sold. For me it's hard to believe that Acura is not better than Chrysler, therefore it seems that this survey is not quite accurate. Jaguar is rated 1 point better than Honda. We don't have any German cars but I hate to see the brand tarnished, especially if the picture we get isn't quite right. By the way Hundai is rated with only 102 problems, better than Toyota, Honda, Infinity or Nissan. There is a lot of money involved here and some explanations might be in order.
Why can't Chrysler be better than Acura in this survey?
I'm sure it is accurate in what it measures. Whether what it measures is of any value or significance is another matter.
In addition cars with more features have more potential problems, so this may have something to do with Acura's results. VWs also comes with a lot of standard features so this may be part of the reason for higher incidence of problems for them as well.
Your own bias shows that even if other manufacturers improve, based on objective measures, many won't believe it anyway. Do you think it is impossible for Honda (Acura) to decline and/or some other company to improve?
What the data really show is there is not much difference between any of these cars. I don't see a real significant difference across the range of 90 to 180 "problems" per 100 vehicles. Our Jetta had 4-5 "problems" in the first couple months, all were minor and all were taken car of in one visit. These "problems" were a non-isue to me. It really did not matter much if there were 1 or 10 of these sort of issues.
Having to get the transmission fixed after 9 months and 10,000 miles was another matter. Nevertheless, it was fixed.
Anyone who gives any weight to this survey of the number of problems in the first 90 days, or whatever, is a fool, imo. It is a silly measurement and their is not much of a difference between the worst and the best, anyway.
We did not even fill out the stupid thing when we got it, as it was too long and full of dumb questions. We kept the $1 anyway
CR survey is not all that much better. I found that out a long time ago when I was a subscriber and saw what they actually ask. It is way to subjective, imo.
If you are talking about actual meaningful problems (which is not what JD powers initial quality survey measures), I think you are right about Jaguar. But my agreement is based more on having looked at the cost of an extended warranty for an X-type, when my wife thought she wanted one of those.
Don't you think comparing cost of an extended warranty gives a pretty good idea of that? I can get cost for the exact same warranty on different models from my credit union. (Edmunds also bases their repair cost figures on extended warranty prices.)
For instance, I got the following prices from my credit union last year:
05 Volvo S40 - 84mo/80K=1,458 84mo/100K=1939
05 Jetta – 84mp/80K=1178 84mo/100K=1563
05 Honda Accord – 84mo/80K=923 84/100K=1020
Prices are for zero deductible, named exclusion which basically means there is a list of maintenance type of repairs not covered and everything else is covered.
The Jag I mentioned before they would not even do 7 years, 6 year and (I think) 72 or 80K mi was maximum and cost was something like $2400 or $2800 or around there. I am going from memory on that one as I only got it over the phone, the other figures above are from an email that I still have.
The Accord was not a car my wife was interested in, but I got the warranty cost as my standard of comparison.
I think I will be getting information like this on cars I am interested in for myself soon. Maybe I'll throw the Jetta on to my list too, even though I do not want one, just to see if there have been any changes.
There is no question that VW is more QUALITY than anything else in the pricerange. I dont care if my VW is less reliable. I would never sacrifice my values to own a Honda again.
Besides, my 4-wheel drive CIVIC blew head gaskets and had other SERIOUS engine problems. My past 6 VW have NEVER had a serious engine problem.
I want to be in a QUALITY automobile that rides nice and handles exceptionally. I also want amenities that make sense are are useful. I also want to be able to MAINTIN my car myself. Most of all - VW has 12 year - unlimited milage corrosion warante... That is IMPERITIVE in Vermont where roadsalt will destroy lesser car bodys in 4-6 years.
The Aisan makes I looked at did not ofer any of the important items I desire in a car.
So let me say I own a 2003 VW Jetta TDI (75,000 miles) and a 2004 Honda Civic (29,000 miles) side by side. Both have been flawless reliability wise. I further do understand that VW has more problems per 100 than Honda for example. This of course increases the chances or likely hood of you eperiencing more problems. VW must have made a huge mistake and produced this flawless one for me. Quality wise, the truth is the VW is far and away built of better quality. It goes from what you can not see, (galvanized metal under neath the paint making it far and away more corrosion resistant) to the stuff you can see, feel, smell, etc. The Honda (for my purposes) is 5,436 dollars cheaper than the VW JETTA TDI and in fact it is more than obvious. This is both good, neutral and bad.
It is easy to zero in on specific cars for specific purposes when you know how and for what purpose it will be used. So in that sense, I have NO real concerns in owning each, side by side.
Another place where Honda (etc) does real well is in CA. We don't have the rust problem near as badly as New England type places such as Vermont for example. (I spent two years in UPSTATE NY and MD, so I do have a two/three year perspective)
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On the other hand, he says the Toyota people weren't bad.
I would expect he would not get much discount on either of those cars, since many people are so willing to overpay for good gas (or diesel
Did the Toyota dealer discuss pricing of the Prius?
I have not run into any pushy car salesmen in many years, at VW dealerships or anywhere else.
From what I understand, the Toyota guy was able to at least give some rough numbers...although they didn't have a car to demonstrate, where VW did.
Rocky
And to further sing our car's praises, we drove it on vacation a couple of weeks ago to the mountains. We averaged a little better than 30 mpg for the trip and got as good as 35 mpg on one leg of the trip. The car is a blast to drive on the curvy mountain roads, and it hardly grunts to pull itself and all of us up even the steepest hills.
As a former Honda owner, I can truthfully say that while the Passat may be no more reliable than a Honda, and it is more expensive than a comparably equipped Accord, it is worth every dime more if the driving experience means anything at all to you.
That is the part that JD Powers and CR fail to cover in their magazines. The Passat TDI is just a lot more fun to drive than a CamCord. I miss mine. I bought it to sell and did just that. If the prices ever get back to reality I may buy another one.
That's not correct, JD Power surveys owners about these things as well. Use this link and compare whatever cars you like: JD Power
If you compare the Passat to the Accord and Camry, you will see that the VW ties with the Honda and beats the Toyota for comfort, performance and overall appeal. Where the problem lies is that the build quality ratings come well short of both the Honda and Toyota. Most Americans who buy cars in this segment value reliability and build quality over performance, if forced to make a choice.
All I have to say to that is they did not drive both the Passat TDI and Accord. There is NO comparison in handling, braking and overall performance. If you are looking for a car to be first to the next stop light, the Accord V6 is very good performer. If you like to get out on the back roads of America and drive, the Passat is way ahead of the Accord. As far as reliability, Toyota and Honda are still raking in the credit for their late 1990s vehicles. Recent offerings from both have had their share of problems. It just takes CR and JDP a long time to catch on.
So as this thread asks the question: YOUR experience with VW good or bad? Mine was Excellent!!!! Both in 1967 & 2005. How was yours?
Plus I know of 4 recent Passat horror stories, all from co-workers (4 separate cars).
In defense of Consumer Reports, they have absolutely raved about the Passat's handling, comfort, safety, and overall performance in recent years and it has always been one of their top-rated models, with one big caveat: As long as the reliability remained at least average, based on owner responses, it stayed on the recommended list. When reliability dropped below average (as was the case for recent 4-cylinder models and 4Motion models), those particular models were removed from the recommended list.
So I do not know if this is good or bad
That's a false statement. CR does annual surveys which include a lookback for each model year of the last several, while JD Power does reliability surveys at the 90-day and 3-year mark. So the data is current, not based upon results from 8-10 years ago.
Just be honest -- you don't have a factual argument against them, you just don't like the results.
So in my case, no I did NOT like the results. CR did NOT say "opps we made a mistake" or even; while rated outstanding, the longer term metrics didn't pan out. Some acknowledgement to that effect would have earned total forgiveness on my part. ( or maybe I am too parochial
So in my case, no I didn't like the results. CR did NOT say "opps we made a mistake" or even; while rated outstanding the longer term metrics didn't pan out. They just progressively changed the red full dots to black and black and half dots.
There seems to be a fair bit of confusion about what CR does. It actually does two seperate things -- it does an owner's survey that focuses on reliability, and it seperately reviews cars. There are cars that CR obviously likes in terms of driving experience, performance, etc., but that don't get good reliability results from the survey.
The red and black dots that come from the owner's survey have nothing to do with whether CR likes the car. The one caveat is that they won't recommend a car that they like unless its reliability ratings from the owner survey are "average" or better. If memory serves, one example of this is the Nissan Titan, which is apparently their class favorite, but is so unreliable according to the owner survey that they can't recommend it.
Of course it doesn't and neither did I say it did. However what I did say was when presented with the evidence they did NOTHING about it by way of verbiage!!!!!!
Perhaps what you are saying is that is their corporate concession after many many experiences such as mine. So as a result I take what they say with a LARGE grain of salt.
Subjective surveys of car owners are not factual arguments either. That said, if all you care about is reliability then toyota or honda have been the way to go (whether or not that will continue to be the case no one really knows). I base this on the fact of lower cost of identical extended warranties...but it is not a huge difference, just a few hundred dollars over 100,000 miles.
Who actually fills out these stupid surveys anyway? We did not fill out the JD power survey that we got...way too long and way too many silly questions.
Actually folks like YOU and me!
So I would surmise they work in a statistical formula to take into account for example they got 100 responses out of 10,000 sent. (just for graphic illustration here) And here is how it affects/effects the results.....
CR lists several categories of specific items, and asks respondents to check off boxes if they've had a problem. It's more objective than subjective -- either the water pump stopped working, or it didn't.
Who actually fills out these stupid surveys anyway? We did not fill out the JD power survey that we got...way too long and way too many silly questions.
Now that is a legitimate issue. I've assembled consumer surveys before, and we tried to keep them short (preferably ten questions or less) to keep people from tuning out or hurrying through it. The CR survey is under 20 questions, but JD Power has over 200, which makes you wonder about how many respondents actually completed the entire thing.
Mine was crappy too, in 1978. I tried to buy a Dasher diesel wagon and the wait was a year. I bought a new Accord and it was nothing but trouble for all the years I owned it. Swore I would never buy another Honda.
2000 VW GTI = :lemon:
Seriously, even after replacing both window regulators I was always afraid to lower either side window for fear of them crashing into the door again.
How can you enjoy a car when the mere thought of opening a window gives you a feeling of dread?
That plus a broken cruise control switch, annoying door speaker rattles, failed remote door unlocking and absolutely horrendous customer service whenever the car was in the shop being fixed led to my first VW ownership experience being my last.
Things that went wrong with my car:
water pump failed at 20,000 miles
air bag control unit failed at 50,000 miles.
antenna wire went bad at 45,000 miles.
front tie-rods went bad at 55,000 miles.
antenna base had to be replaced at 40k.
Only the water-pump was replaced under warranty.
In my experience my wife's chevy cavalier was more reliable than my passat by a long shot.
VW makes cars that are joy to drive and the design both in and out that is superb. The new Passat is a great example. But based on my own experience, my next car will not be a VW. It's one thing to have one major thing to go wrong but to have several major things to go wrong is IMHO jut too much.
My car was recommended by CR when I purchased it. I'd like to point out that CR no longer recommends any VW cars due to their reliablitiy problems. I would have to agree.
If you scroll a few pages back, you'll probably find my stories, which I won't repeat, but to reiterate: My family's experience was crappy, with 1999 (VR6) and 2003 (TDI) VW products. Pathetic reliability, expensive repairs, crappy service departments, and arrogant sales staff. My friend's experience has been crappy, with a 2005 TDI model. Another friend's experience has been crappy, with a 2000 2.0 model. One friend used to own a 1998 2.0 model, but put very few miles on it (~5k per year), and it didn't start acting up until 2003-04 or so. With the exception of the 2004 TDI, reliability was passable, but not great, until just after the warranty expired.
I drove an Audi A3 and loved it, but there are limits to the amount of frustration I can put up with.
Yet another friend has a 2002-ish TDI, but the last time I talked to him, he had just purchased the car used. I'm still waiting for a follow-up report.
CR lists several categories of specific items, and asks respondents to check off boxes if they've had a problem. It's more objective than subjective -- either the water pump stopped working, or it didn't.
Have they changed their survey, because it used to say "did you have a problem that you consider serious..."? That is subjective. Some people will say they had a serious problem if they had to have a $200 brake job at 50,000 miles.
But they do say not to include routine replacement items like brake pads, unless they occur too frequently. Also they ask to exclude battery and tire replacement, as well as repairs due to crash damage.
Yes, there is some subjectivity involved as to what is "serious," but in my mind, with over a million responders, do you think there's going to be a significant difference between say, Chevy owners and Toyota owners, in what they count as "serious?" (Maybe there would be between Chevy and Porsche owners, but these cars are in vastly different price classes except of course for the Corvette.)
Both were constantly in the shop and I made good use of my warranty! I just bought a new Outback and am optimistic. I just couldn't trust my VW anymore and as someone posted repairs are expensive! My dealer was OK.
I doubt I'll go back to VW because of my experiences.
I think that 210DelRay covered this one nicely in #713. CR goes to some lengths to define what "serious" means, including a long laundry list of examples, and some specific clarifications of what makes a problem "serious".
Any survey is subject to misinterpretation or lying, but a sufficiently large survey pool should cancel out the responses from these "outliers". And there's no reason to believe that owners of different marques have a tendency to answer surveys any more or less accurately than would others.
If JD Powers was 10 questions we would have filled it out. I wonder what their response rate is?
JDP claims to receive a response rate of about 50%, which would mean that it is getting about 25,000 responses for each survey (the 90-day IQS and the 3-year VDS.)
While JDP results tend to be pretty good, being that it tends to be fairly similar to the information you'll get from other sources that survey by similar means, I have to wonder how many of those 25,000 survey forms actually come back completely filled out. And really, a 50% response rate is phenomenally high -- any market research company would kill for a response rate like that -- so it really does make you wonder exactly what those responses look like.
Here's my contention - Take any brand of automobile and start the same discussion. Acura brand experience - good or bad? Toyota brand experience... whichever brand you choose, and my prediction is that you will have more negative posts than positive.
There is a story about a six year old who'd never spoken. His family thought he was mute until one day at lunch he said in perfect English, "My peas are cold." His dad immediately said, "Son, we didn't think you could talk." To which the boy replied, "I never had a reason to complain until now."
So it is with topics such as this - and I believe it is also the case with JD Power/CR. People who have a beef with a particular company are more likely to fill out a survey than those who have no problems, simply because they feel it is one way their voice can be heard.
I've had opportunities to fill out surveys before and quite frankly if it's more than 10 questions, I'm going to file-13 it - UNLESS I'm in the mood to complain.
Whereas I have never had a good experience with any Toyota dealership or Toyota vehicle, EVER.
Snotty dealers, bad test drives, poor reliability seem to be the hallmark of Toyota in my experience.
But I know Toyota is supposed to be a reliable car. I just know that hidden at Toyota corporate headquarters is my picture with a standing order to all dealerships ensuring that I will only get poor treatment and lemon cars.
:P
Whereas VW, with spotty reliability, seems to have a standing order to only sell me the best vehicles they have and to treat me like royalty.
:shades:
Honda gave them a good run for their money, though, and VW only just squeaked by them.
FWIW, given the profusion of differing and conflicting surveys there are out there....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There is plenty of demand for VW's diesel cars. But diesel's future in the U.S. is dim with the upcoming emissions regulations.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)