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There you have it. Somewhere I posted the figures for May and the Jetta TDI went past 40%. Which is amazing when you consider they are not sold in the largest market CA. The last I read VW is building enough 2006 MY TDIs to carry them through 2007. That is when the new diesel will be available.
My brother used to sell VWs and he told me they can't keep TDI models on the lot. They are snatched up as soon as they are unloaded off the carriers. Furthermore, I believe the VW and Mercedes Diesels are already a bit ahead of the game on emissions, and certainly on noise. The VW diesel is the probably the quietest diesel I've ever heard - or not heard.
It's kind of ironic that their base engine does so poorly for gas mileage, when their turbo does so decently and their diesel tops the market for fuel economy.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This is simply not true in the real world, unless you are comparing it to much lighter cars. This is a 3300 pound car and the real world mileage is comparable to other cars of that weight.
CR test measured 17/33/24 mpg (city/hwy/ mixed) for the 2.5 engine in ~3300# Jetta.
For comparison, the 4 cyl 2005 Camry, weighing about the same, 16/34/24 mpg. 2005 4 cyl Altima,also about the same weight, 16/30/23 mpg. Most recent 4 cyl Accord review I could find in CR was from 2003, measured 16/38/24 mpg (weight about 150# less than Jetta).
I don't think it's either - I think it's exactly the way its designers intended it to be, and they consciously made the decision to sacrifice fuel economy in the quest for a substantial-feeling (there's your weight) compact car with a kick-your-butt torquey engine.
It's a decent $18-19K car IMO, but they have to understand that people in that price range and shopping compact cars are often prioritizing fuel economy, especially while the prices stay over $3/gallon.
And as for my original comment, I thought the irony was mainly in the fact that VW seems to be unique in that as you go up from the base engine, fuel economy gets BETTER. Usually it is the other way around - more power gets you less mpgs. :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I know a guy that had his Golf parked when a hailstorm trashed most of the Asian cars in the same parking lot. (Insurance officially called them "totalled")
My friends Golf, had lost some paint on the horizontal surfaces and there was some slight dimpling of the steel. Insurance paid to have it repainted.
I too find it strange that the base engine gets the worst gas mileage. Our Passat 2.0T gets more mpg than a Jetta with the 2.5.
But wait till you see how the new Camry did! (And it's a much bigger car and weighs about the same as the Jetta.)
VW has some really nice non-aspirated engines they sell in Europe, but the premium fuel requirement is pretty much a nonstarter for the NA market.
No matter how well they do in the crash tests they are still a step back from the last model. And they are UGLY. Pretty bad when the best looking car you make is the Scion Xb.
jefferyg: "The fact is you can't really compare the Jetta with a Civic/Corolla, etc. The base price on a Jetta is $17,900 before you add anything - even destination charges"
I know this has been your contention for a while, and I don't wish to be too contradictory, but I will most certainly feel free to do exactly that (compare Civic and Jetta, and Corolla too when the new model comes out in a year), and it is a most logical comparison. The Civic LX is the same price (a few hundred less), is the same size, gets WAY better gas mileage, has a better power-to-weight ratio, and a much more tossable feel. Not to mention all the same safety gear standard. I suspect it will do very well in the side impact tests, once they get round to it.
This would seem to be the car people are looking for at this price point, as it is selling better than ever in its entire history - almost a year after its debut dealers can't keep them in stock - CIVICS, for crying out loud. Its sales eclipse Jetta by a factor of several to one.
Did all, most, or even some of those people cross-shop with Jetta? I have no way to know. But I contend it would certainly be a logical comparison. Same size, same price, similar performance (nothing stellar, but nothing embarassing either in both cases), same primary mission to be urban transport for young singles and couples, perhaps small families too.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Everyone else just thinks of it as a German transportation appliance, only cheaper. Most cars in this class are mostly thought of as appliances, BTW.
You could drive both and form an opinion based on personal experience...I get the feeling you have dismissed the Civic because it is Asian, without ever getting near one? But I may be totally wrong on that one. The new Civic is a good drive. So is Jetta. I would take the Civic.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The funny thing about this is that:
-Jettas sold in North America are built in Mexico. (Actually, I believe that all Jettas sold worldwide are built in Mexico, but I am not certain of this.)
-The Jetta's automatic transmission is built in Japan.
-Jettas are not popular in Europe, Golfs sell in much greater numbers.
-If you read the European motoring press such as Car (UK), you will find that they tend to like VW's, but knock Jettas as an Americanized (read: undesirable) car.
To be fair, this could be a matter of positioning. In Europe, the Jetta is intended to compete with the 3-series (although it might help to know that there are lower-level 316's and 318's being sold in Europe that are offered at a comparable price to these VW's.) But it's a bit funny that a car marketed here for its German engineering is built in Mexico, uses Japanese and Mexican components in its drivetrain, and is designed primarily with the US market in mind.
Check this out.
AFAIK, the Prius is the same with respect to emissions in all 50 states; it just carries a longer warranty on certain emissions parts and the battery pack in CA and the 4 northeastern states that follow the CA rules.
If I'm wrong, please direct me to a link.
In California states it is certified as AT-PZEV, which of course means it has partial-zero emissions and specifically adds that the emissions system components are warranted for performance and defect for 150K miles. This warranty must be standard for any car certified as AT-PZEV in the California states. I believe that includes the current Jetta (base engine).
I do find it interesting that the new Civic BEATS the Jetta for crash safety ratings. I knew Honda had taken great care to make sure its new Civic would score at the top. A lot of people still buy into the notion that the heavier car must be the safer one, because of thicker metal or something, I'm not sure what the thinking is. More important to safety than the gauge of the steel is the design of the cabin and surrounding crush zones, as well as of course the inclusion of side and curtain airbags.
Often, the main "advantage" of extra weight in a car is that it gets that "bank vault" feeling. But at the same time, it becomes less agile and either slower or less fuel efficient, so it's a trade-off.
Oh yeah, if I had one of those Camrys, I would rip off the Toyota emblem at the front! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Actually I went and sat in the Accord Hybrid and the new Civic hybrid. Tipton Honda in El Cajon CA was not allowing test drives on the New HAH. It sat at least 2 weeks before I saw it was gone at $3k over MSRP. The Honda dealer in Poway had one HCH that was sold. So they let me sit in it. I have not driven the Jetta or the Civic so my impressions are from sitting in them. If the Jetta handles like the Passat I am sure it is superior to the Honda offerings. I lost interest as they both seem too small and confining for my taste. The LS400 is cramped enough for me. I just like the feel of being in a full sized truck or Suburban. Much easier ingress and egress. Much better view of the road ahead. And better view all around. They have made most of the new cars with lousy visibility. Too bad the NHTSA does not rate on visibility. Some cars should be outlawed on that alone.
"If the Jetta handles like the Passat I am sure it is superior to the Honda offerings"
I have to question it because you HAVE NOT DRIVEN the Honda offerings (in fact it seems you have not driven either car). You have dismissed the Honda because you have a predisposition against it, it seems.
And by the way, I was comparing gas to gas, like-priced to like-priced, Civic LX to Jetta VE. Not the hybrid. I hear the hybrid does a little better on gas this time than last, but not much. You can still pull low 40s combined mpg without trying very hard, which is decent, given the hybrid is at the EX equipment level and then some, and still priced about $20K.
I am with you on your disdain for the ADM dealers are charging, but they won't be able to do it for much longer.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
According to the fueleconomy website the 2006 Prius is rated an "8" for the 45 non CARB states. The VW 2.5L engine is avalible as a "9" in the 45 non-CARB states. Several cars have a better rating in all 50 states than the Prius. Toyota seems to have a hard time getting a 9 rating outside the CARB states. Even the 2007 Camry Hybrid is a step down. The new HCH carries a 9 so it is possible for a hybrid to make the rating.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
You have to have dealers that make you feel like a test drive will be beneficial to you making a decision. I know we read a lot of crap about bad VW dealers. I have to say the one VW dealer in San Diego that I have dealt with is head and shoulders above the Honda dealers around here. Before I flew to Portland to buy the Passat TDI I went to Drew VW and asked to take a Passat wagon out for a test drive. It was no problem. He knew I wanted a TDI and felt bad that they could not sell them. That was prior to the new Jetta coming out. I understand it is roomier feeling than the older style.
Your comment about the HCH. I think it is a better deal and a better car than the Prius. It gets closer to the EPA rated mileage than the Prius. The dash was kind of a turn off on the HCH. It looks OK from outside. Not for me but a good entry level car IMO.
You are correct that sheet metal thickness is immaterial with regard to crash safety. The outer sheet metal contributes very little to the crashworthiness of the vehicle.
I seriously doubt these days there is much difference in sheet metal thickness anyway, despite claims to the contrary. Everyone has to meet the CAFE standards, and with 2-sided galvanizing in universal use, you don't need overly thick sheet metal to forestall rust.
A major problem with trying to compare the two is that Honda dealers seem to greatly outnumber VW dealers. Most people will never give the VW a look because they have to drive 100 miles to get to a dealer. However, I see Honda dealers in many towns with no more than 25,000 residents. That in itself explains some of the difference in sales numbers.
Each Brand/Model has its strengths. The Hondas are reliable and overall, more frugal with fuel - especially in town. The Passat matches Accord on fuel mileage on the Highway - and I say that from experience.
Both are quiet and comfortable on the Road, but I'd rather have my VW on a long trip or a winding road.
Our kid's booster seats don't fit properly in Civic or Accord. They fit perfectly in the Passat.
Don't know about the Jetta, but the Passat wins over Accord in cargo hauling ability. The trunk may not be any bigger than the Accord's, but every inch is usable.
Compare any trim level and you will always pay more for the VW. However, you will also get more with the VW.
The VW seems to be more expensive to maintain, but only time will tell.
With all that said (and I could go on), I think the major issue when it comes to deciding between Accord/Passat or Civic/Jetta is $$$$$. For someone on a tight budget, the Honda is probably the better choice. Personally I like the Civic slightly more than the Jetta. However, I have to give the nod to the Passat over the Accord, but my opinion may change when the new Accord comes out.
I contrast this with several trips I have taken with friends that have a 2004 Accord 4-cyl - loaded to the gills (3 adults and 2 car seats plus a full trunk), that car would pull 35 mpg easy in long-distance high-speed driving (I consider 75 and above high speed in this context).
Passat is a VERY nice car. With its new 2.0T, you would have a lot of trouble convincing me Accord 4-cyl is the better car. But you do pay the price for the VW - it costs more up front, is slightly off in fuel economy (and does the turbo REQUIRE premium gas, or is it just recommended?), and of course is a big question mark once the warranty expires.
And yes, it's true - VW dealers are much less plentiful. Plus some are real stinkers. I suppose everyone here has a personal story of a Honda dealer that is a stinker too, so that's a wash.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Jetta actually has slightly bigger trunk (in cubic feet) than Passat or Accord and the space is certainly is very useable.
Passat 15/35/23
Camry 16/35/24
Accord 15/34/23
Altima 15/32/22
Also in that test, the Accord was the slowest in acceleration tests and the Passat was the fastest.
Why is it a problem to have an engine designed to work well for the way americans tend to drive and to appeal to American buyers? I think they also wanted to create a reliable problem free engine...hopefully they were successful in that regard.
Why does it matter if the EPA rating is 22/30, if in the real world it gets the same mileage as Japanese cars rated at 24/34?
IMO, the 2.5 is fine with an AT, it just isn't particularly representative of the best stuff VW can produce. And given fuel prices I'd bet VWoA wouldn't mind something with better mpg either.
In my medium size metro area Toyota has 6 dealers, Honda 5, and VW has 5. So it is no more difficult to find a VW dealer than it is to find a Honda or Toyota dealer.
Despite their huge sales numbers Toyota apparently still only has about 1200 US dealers. For comparison there are about 3800 Ford dealers and over 4000 Chevy.
The recommended fuel is minimum 91 octane. There are some other forums out there that can explain better than I can why you need to burn premium. Most of what I put in the car is 93 octane. I try to fill up every Tuesday at the local Exxon that sells premium for a penny more than plus on Tuesdays. At only 11 cents more than regular that means an extra $2 per tankful if the tank is completely empty. In reality what that means for us is slightly more than a dollar per week, because my wife only burns up about a half a tank per week. My opinion is that if you let $10 worth of gas per month stress you out, then you better start riding a bicycle.
Wish I could say the same thing here. I have to drive about 80 miles to get to the closest VW dealer.
Without a doubt that's the biggest problem I have with our Passat - It kills a day to take it in to the shop to get anything done.
It wouldn't for me, clearly, based on my own experience. Some people are better than others at extracting the EPA ratings from their cars, of course. I have always been pretty good at that.
And not surprisingly, my main objection continues unchanged. The Japanese car comparable to the Jetta at 22/30 is the Civic at 30/40, hardly a small difference. You can save 25% of your money at every fill-up with the Civic.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Jetta weighs 500 to 700 lbs more than the Civic. I am not going to debate that weight issue again...but you certainly can not expect a car that weighs that much more than a civic to obtain the same mileage. This is like complaining that the Accord has poor mileage, because it is lower than a Civic.
EPA numbers are not accurate for most people. The CR numbers for Civic with automatic were 18/43/28. So if you drive in urban areas that is only 1 mpg better than the Jetta. If you drive on the highway there is a big difference...about 30%. In mixed driving the Civic was 17% better than Jetta. The Jetta tested weighed 17% more than the Civic that was tested.
My experience has been that five people can sit comfortably in a Camry or Accord for a trip of decent length. Put five people in a Jetta for more than 20 minutes, and the three that had to be in the back will all hate each other when they get out. Not to mention they will be rubbing their necks and backs.
I can't help it if VW built a four-person car so heavy that it could only compete with other companies' five-person cars! To try to compare it to cars of equal weight in order to make the comparisons more favorable is to thoroughly ignore the way in which people shop for cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I see these distinctions up close for I own both a Jetta TDI and Civic. Insofar as the weight (500#) difference, basically a "FAIR" comparison is indeed the Jetta driver alone vs 4 people in a Civic. I think the outcome on whatever metrics you care to compare is predictable.
Since one of mine is a diesel and the other a gasser, The same plain jane commute yields 50/52 mph vs 38-42 in the other.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Five adults in a Camry or Accord for more than an hour is pushing the envelope of human kindness. That is the reason that Suburban and Tahoe along with all the other big SUVs are so popular. 5, 6, 7 or 8 people in a Suburban is very comfortable going cross country. I would not take off cross country in a Camry loaded down with even 4 adults. For one thing you would not get all their stuff in. My Grandson just took off for Idaho with his wife and two toddlers in a 2005 Odyssey. He had to get a Yakima roof carrier for all the "needed" stuff. They called and complained that they only got 18 MPG on the trip up. I thought that was good with all the stuff and that carrier.
Getting back to the VW. I really liked the Passat Wagon TDI. It got 40 MPG on the highway at 75 MPH. It was just not big enough for me to feel comfortable. Maybe a Touareg if they wise up and put the V6 TDI in it. I am leaning more to the GL 320 CDI when it hits our shore this fall. Just about as small as I would go for a cross country traveler.
As for Accord, I have TAKEN interstate trips in that car with 5 aboard, and we were just fine, thank you. I would never consider such a trip in the Jetta. Even Passat seems less roomy to me, especially in the rear, than the Accord.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Balderdash! We took a cross-country trip last December from Los Angeles to VA with my wife, adult son, and his worldly possessions from his LA apartment in our 2004 Camry (he was moving back east). Yes, a good deal of stuff had to go in the back seat, and some was shipped separately to our home. Still the right rear seat had plenty of room for my wife, who usually sat there. We carried NOTHING on the roof or on the outside of the trunk. She never complained about discomfort. BTW, we averaged 30.3 mpg for the trip.
As for your grandson, I don't get it. My wife and I had 2 sons, and during the 80s when they were toddlers, our primary mode of travel was a 1980 Volvo 240 2-DOOR SEDAN. Yes, we used child safety seats or boosters all the time back then, definitely not the norm. Anytime we went on a trip, just about everything (and ALL heavy stuff) went into the trunk. Never had a car top carrier or a trunk rack, but we sometimes hung bikes off the rear.
What do parents carry these days that wasn't used just 20 years ago?
No, the Camry is much roomier than the Jetta and slightly better than the Passat. ALL of them are smaller than I would consider if I was going any distance with 4 or 5 adults. Two people and luggage would be OK with the Camry. I don't like the Accord. I could not get the kink out of my neck from ducking to see out the windshield on the HAH I sat in. I know the specs say it has head room. Not near enough for me. The pre 2007 Camry was good head room. Have no desire to sit in the new one.
You got me. The Odyssey was stuffed and I assume the carrier was full also. You would think they were moving not going on a weeks vacation.
I remember several vacations in my Dad's 1956 Pontiac with all 5 kids and our stuff. No car topper either. We moved back from Portland to Los Angeles with that car a small trailer. All our earthly possessions were in there.
Mostly, they're carting around their belief systems, which associate ownership of a mini-bus with sending a message to the world (or at least their fellow drivers) that they are dedicated and devoted parents.
In my mind, a lot of owners of SUV's and minivans are actually of very similar demographics -- the eager uberparent. The difference between them is that while the minivan owners feel that being a proud superparent with a vehicle dedicated to same is, in and of itself, a symbol of reverse cool, the SUV owners believe that they need to project the image of being the sporty parent who still manage to maintain the vitality of their earlier years.
At the end of the day, most people don't actually require all of that usable space most of the time. If fuel prices keep climbing, I suspect that many of these buyers will forget all about their alleged need for excess space, and will downsize into smaller SUV's and station wagons (yes, station wagons) in order to save money.
And along these lines, this would be one reason for GM and/or Ford to bring back a 4- and 6-cylinder El Camino-style truck-car, similar to the Ford Falcon and Holden Commodore "utes" sold in Australia. With lower fuel consumpion, a car-like ride but the space of a pickup, I'll bet that a segment would snap these up, too.
obesity
how many people can you fit in each car, and how comfortable will they be? That is what counts.
Maybe for you, not necessarily for every other car buyer. This is not a very significant concern for me or my wife when shopping for a car currently. A back seat that is adequate for 2 is sufficient. If the comfort of 3 people in the back seat of a sedan were my primary concern, I guess I'd get a Ford 500...I sure would not buy a Camry or Accord or a Jetta or a Mazda 6 (probably my next car).
----
But with a VW, the 80-mile drive is actually FUN.
:P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)