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As for checking the charging rate, well, once you get the car started and if the alternator shuts off the charging light on the dash, at least that tells you that SOME juice is coming from the alternator. A better way is to get the car running and hook up a simple digital voltmeter to the battery and see how much voltage is being pumped in. I'm sure any of the auto chain stores sell simple voltmeters and they are handy to have around, as they also measure ohms (resistance). They can only measure milli-amps so don't work for starter draw testing. You would fry one instantly if you tried that. The voltmeter can also measure simple battery voltage to a wire or terminal, as in "is this wire live right now?"--so you could use it to see if current goes to your starter relay every time you turn your key.
Only do what you know, read the directions, and don't experiment on your car's electrical system. You might find it useful to take a trip to the public library and try out one of those popular "how to" books on cars. If nothing else, you'll get some good ideas about the theory of how these things work.
fast charge on a car battery is 40-50 amps, and if it doesn't blow up or boil dry or a plate warps into a short from the heat, should be stopped after an hour. slow charge, or trickle charge, is done at under 6 amps, and is limited by the windings of the charger's transformer and the voltage design point.
if you are charging a car battery, the terminal voltage should be between I believe 13.5 and 14.2 volts. any more, you are cooking out the battery. any less, and you can't get it to a full charge. midpoint, around 13.8, is expected in a modern system as the maximum charging voltage.
you pass load testing, but the alternator can't generate enough current to hit the charge voltage afterwards, it's alternator or regulator issues that need fixing.
if you can't get better than 10.8 volts to the starter terminal when cranking with a full and tested-OK battery, you have a starter relay, wiring, or ground fault. starter amperage is generally tested with an induction current meter, anything over 200 amps on a passenger vehicle means shorted windings in the starter, change it.
any voltage under 10 volts may cause the engine computer to get nutty, and under 9 or so depending on vehicle brand will cause the computer to get super-nutty, to the point where it won't stay up long enough to determine it's a computer and try to set the engine up to start.
SO, for your information only, that's what the tech needs to do to figure out what in the devil has infected your car. that's worth $25-40, isn't it? it's called a "battery load and charging test."
had a broken carbon rod in a "bunny battery" in a flashlight that tested OK for voltage, but the flashlight petered out every single time it was turned on in 45 seconds. same deal. finally caught onto the deal when the little rattle in that battery finally was realized as significant.
Now the things with the car go as following:
1. I recharged the battery by battery charger up to 13.5V and after that the car started. After that the car was run for about 50-100 miles for a week. Generally battery worked well, BUT:
2. When the enginge is running the voltage on the battery is about 14.4 V. Is not it too much?
3. I asked to make "battery load test" at tech station. They made it and told that battery is ok.
4. The car usually starts well, HOWEVER it SOMETIMES does NOT start at all when the engine is hot. The starter does NOT rotate. When this happened last time I measured the voltage on the battery.
Before turning the ignition key it was 12.5 V. As the key turns the voltage drops to 11.7V. I believe that means that the current FLOWS into the starter, but for some reason does not rotate it. I tried then several times rotating the key for about 1 second. It did not started. I checked battery contacts and made sure by wrench that they are firm. No effect. Then I left the car for about 2 hours and after that tried again. It DID start immediately. And even after running it for about 5 miles and then stopping and starting again it worked fine too.
So, what could be wrong now?
Does anybody know, how can be 6 volts on the starter solenoid when I turn the igntion switch on? That is the problem that I have now. Sometimes, when the engine is hot the starter does not rotate at all when one tries to start it.
#4 Today, 08:58 PM
w9q
Free Account Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7
Re: No start problem
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Hi!
May someone could help after additional information that I got. When this happesn (the stater motor does not rotate at all when the car is hot) the voltage on the starter solenoid is just 6 volts!
1. Where could be the problem?
2. Is it ok to check whether the problem in solenoid by directly connecting + battery terminal to the starter solenoid by jumping wire cable?
3. What do I have in circuit between the battery and the starter solenoid besides ignition switch. I actually can't understand how this weird voltage (6 volts) can form? Moroever, the voltage on the battery changes just from 12 to 11 volts when I turn the ignition switch on.
#4 Today, 08:58 PM
w9q
Free Account Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7
Re: No start problem
------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------
Hi!
May someone could help after additional information that I got. When this happesn (the stater motor does not rotate at all when the car is hot) the voltage on the starter solenoid is just 6 volts! Usually this happens when the car is hot. The battery passed load test. The voltage on the battery changes just from 12.5 to 11.5 volts when I turn the ignition switch.
1. Where could be the problem?
2. Is it ok to check whether the problem in starter solenoid by directly connecting + battery terminal to the starter solenoid by jumping wire cable?
3. What do I have in circuit between the battery and the starter solenoid besides ignition switch. I actually can't understand how this weird voltage (6 volts) can form? Moroever, the voltage on the battery changes just from 12 to 11 volts when I turn the ignition switch on.
4. On the wiring diagram I can read that between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid there is some "inhibitor switch". What is that??
Thanks a lot.
The inhibitor switch is in the ignition solenoid circuit. Prevents voltage from reaching the solenoid, and prevents the starter from operating, unless it's in Park or neutral.
Could be the battery needs replacing. 4 years is a natural life for it.
It might well be that your cables were INTERNALLY corroded all along (I'd certainly replace them totally at this point, not just the connectors) and this might have damaged the alternator. Alternators don't like to run with bad ground or interruption from the positive side of the battery.
Did you buy an alternator for no good reason? Impossible to say without testing the old alternator, so it's water over the dam at this point.
The lesson here is to replace old battery cables when you replace an old battery.
I hope someone can shed some light on this as I am about out of ideas
The car will crank but will not start. There is spark but no fuel. Originally, I thought it was the fuel pump so I replaced the pump and filter. The problem remained the same.
Afer many hours, I have narrowed the problem down as follows: With the ignition key in the run or fully on position the power distribution box (located in the engine copartment next to the battery)does not receive any ignition voltage. After several minutes it magically energizes (all the relays chatter and I can hear fuel pressurize. The dashboard at this time flashes a check engine light which goes away about a second or two later.
This all takes about 6 minutes when it is cold outside and 1-2 minutes when warmer. From this point on the car immediately starts and runs great. This happens every time I try and start the car. Even if the engine has beeen off for a few minutes.
I stopped by a local Jeep dealer and he saw first hand what I saw. He agreed that it was coming from something leading to the power distribution block. I don't know how savvy he was as I asked him what could be some of or THE culprit. He answered that he could spend hours tracing down the wires. This to me at $75 /hr on a 11 year old car is not a pretty option.
I do not know what can be causing this - does anyone out there have any ideas? I have checked all grounds. All relays and all fuses.
Thanks
So you might try some inexpensive and artful substitutions---call them "the school of highly accurate guesses".
Did you check and clean your fusebox and replace the fuses?
She has intermittent problems getting the key to turn in the ignition switch; she's tried both her keys and explains if she just lets it sit in the switch for a while it eventually does turn. I am no expert on locks/tumblers but it sounds like it might simply be dirty needing lubrication. What's a good lube for this? I gave her some WD40 which I have used in door locks successfully, but am not sure if it's really that good or should be used in the switch. I said to spray a little on the key, not "gush" it into the switch. Any other ideas?
Use only a graphite lubricant, often sold in a powder form and sometimes in a spray.
Thanks.
Check all wires and grounds, checked pickup coil. Good power throughout the car. All seems good. I am puzzled. I could use some help at this point! What should I look for?
It is not getting fuel. Will turn over and run for 1 or 2 sec., then quits. Will continue to run as long as you stand in front and feed it starter fluid.v
It is cold here, 10-30 defrees F, so I added 24 oz. of gasline anti-freeze. No help either. Can't get it to a dealer until Monday. Seems like a computer signal or something related to VSC, will not send gas to the carbuerator. Any ideas? Please help! Thanks.
So how come it runs for a couple seconds? Could it be that the cold start injector gets a signal but not the regular injectors? Then why is that? OR, is the fuel pump shutting down after the key is released? Could we have a system here with two relays for start and run, and one of those is screwy? Might we have two separate fuses for these functions?
I can't take a guess on this one but the symptoms do seem to give a clue or two.
This time we seem to have bright blue spark at the plug, but no fuel. The plugs had the smell of "varnish" gas to them, but the truck is used on almost a daily basis to run at least 10 miles on a light day, and it was filled at the same time as his wife's car and they have not had any problem with that car at all, so I doubt it's the fuel itself. The fuel pressure gauge reads 62-65 psi while the pump is running and drops to 55 psi pump off. Service manual says this is normal, but we changed the fuel filter anyways and the pressure readings were the same.
I checked my computer GM Manual and it says that it could be a bad crank sensor, and that a bad sensor can advance the timing by 50º and that that would cause it not to start. I also want to see if I can run get it to run from the 3M cleaner in a can, you know the kit where you disconnect the fuel pump and run the truck from the cleaner in the pressurized can. If you are not familiar with the kit and have ever taken your car to the dealer to have the injectors cleaned this is what they use, the whole kit can be had on ebay for around $80. The dealer here charges $130 and it's not covered under the factory warranty, so for less than the dealer charges you can do almost any car for under $25 for the can of cleaner. Have not tried the shooting starting fluid down the intake trick yet to see it it's not getting fuel through the injectors.
I am going to hook it up to the Tech 2 tomorrow and see if I am getting a signal from the crank sensor, if not I know what to do, but if I do get a signal it's still going to be a mystery, any other ideas?
Document ID# 542003
2000 GMC Truck GMC C Sierra - 2WD
Engine Cranks but Does Not Run
Circuit Description
The diagnosis for an engine that cranks but does not run must have three elements present before proceeding with the diagnostic table. The following conditions must exist:
- The battery must be adequately charged.
- The engine cranking speed must be sufficient.
- There must be an adequate amount of fuel in the fuel tank.
Diagnostic Aids
If no trouble is found in the fuel pump circuit or the ignition system and the cause of an Engine Cranks But Will Not Run has not been found, check the following conditions:
Perform the Fuel Injector Coil Test .
An after-market vehicle theft deterrent system could cause a start then stall or a no start condition.
Fouled spark plugs
An exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) valve stuck open
Water or foreign material in the fuel system
A grounded or intermittently grounded Ignition Control (IC) signal circuit
Restricted exhaust system -- Refer to Restricted Exhaust in Engine Exhaust.
Check the following ignition components:
- Worn distributor cap
- Worn distributor rotor
Check ignition wires by lightly spraying them with water in order to identify intermittent no starts.
Check the following mechanical components:
- Cylinder valve timing
- Loose or broken timing chain
- Low compression
- Worn camshaft lobes
- Bent or burned intake or exhaust valves
The vehicle control module (VCM) has integrated circuits that are fault protected, therefore, if a circuit has failed, the integrated circuit may not be damaged. If that is the case, then the system will keep the circuit open until the condition has been corrected.
Afterwards, reinstall the VCM and check the circuit. Replace the VCM only if the circuit is still inoperative.
An intermittent may be caused by any of the following conditions:
A poor connection
Rubbed through wire insulation
A broken wire inside the insulation
Thoroughly inspect any circuitry that is suspected of causing the intermittent complaint.
If a repair is necessary, refer to Wiring Repairs or Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Test Description
The numbers below refer to the step numbers on the diagnostic table.
2. If the engine starts, the problem could be intermittent. Basic engine mechanical problems, the vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system, if equipped, and poor connections could cause a no start condition.
3. This step will determine if the cause of the no start or start and stall is related to the VTD.
4. If the signal is over 2.5 volts, the engine may be in the clear flood mode which will cause starting problems.
5. If the engine coolant sensor is below -30°C (-22°F), the VCM provides fuel for this extremely cold temperature which will severely flood the engine.
6. Voltage at the spark plug is checked using the J 26792 spark plug tester tool. No spark indicates a basic ignition problem.
7. This test will determine if there is fuel pressure at the fuel injection unit and holding steady.
8. Use the J 34730-375 injector test lamp in order to test the injector circuits. A blinking lamp indicates that the VCM is controlling the injector.
Step * Action * Value(s) * Yes * No
1 * Did you perform the Powertrain On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) System Check? * -- * Go to Step 2 * Go to Powertrain On Board Diagnostic (OBD) System Check
2 * Attempt to start the engine. Does the engine start and continue to run? * -- * Go to Symptoms * Go to Step 3
3 * Install a scan tool. Monitor the VTD Fuel Disabled parameter. Crank the engine. Does the VTD Fuel Disabled parameter display active while you crank the engine? * -- * Go to Diagnostic System Check - Theft Deterrent in Theft Deterrent * Go to Step 4
4 * Monitor the throttle position (TP) sensor on the scan tool. With the throttle closed, is the TP sensor more than the specified value? * 2.5 V * Go to DTC P0121 Throttle Position (TP) Sensor Performance * Go to Step 5
5 * Monitor the engine coolant temperature (ECT) sensor on the scan tool. Is the ECT sensor below the specified value? * -30°C (-22°F) * Go to DTC P0118 Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor Circuit High Voltage * Go to Step 6
6 * Check for spark at two spark plug wires using the J 26792 spark tester. Is spark present at both spark plug wires? * -- * Go to Step 7 * Go to Enhanced Ignition System Diagnosis
7 * Reconnect the spark plug wires. Turn OFF the ignition. Connect the J 34730-1A fuel pressure gauge. Turn ON the ignition, leaving the engine OFF. Is the fuel pressure within the specified range? * 414-455 kPa (60-66 psi) * Go to Step 8 * Go to Fuel System Diagnosis
8 * Disconnect the injector connector at the intake manifold. Install the J 34730-375 injector test lamp into each injector circuit one at a time. Crank the engine with the injector test lamp in each circuit. Does the injector test lamp flash for each injector circuit? * -- * Go to Diagnostic Aids * Go to Fuel Injector Circuit Diagnosis
The flow chart for repair of the P1351 trouble code, and now you are talking about the VCM, is this also known as a PCM, or ECM? The problem here is that the truck is a new body style, truck , and GM made the old body style through 2000 for fleet trucks, and the V-6 trucks classify as fleet vehicles, not just the HD models so some of the stuff I am finding is for the older model truck. I guess that the new truck is a Sierra C 800 model.
In step for it says that the signal not be over 2.5V. Where do I measure this signal from? If it's the TPS that's all ok, one of the first things I checked.
Do you think it could be a bad Crank Pos. Sensor?
Thanks
I have a 2003 Grand Cherokee, 8 cyl., 2-wheel drive, automative transmission.
The problem I have is that when I go to start the vehicle after it has been sitting for mre than 1-hour, that starter cranks and cranks for about 5-6 seconds, and then the engine finally turns over. If it has been just a few minutes since the car was running (i.e. you went to run an errand, ran into a store, and ran out 10-minutes later), and you start it back up again, it starts immediately, without hesitation. I have had this problem for nearly 3 weeks now. I should also mention that the battery, starter, and alternator have all been tested and checkout perfectly.
The vehicle has 35,000 miles on it, so it is still just barely (36,000 miles) within warranty. I have taken it to the dealership, and they had it for two days and stated that they "could not reproduce the problem". They recommended that I have them do a fuel injector service on it, and so I agreed to that. However, it STILL has the problem, and it is a VERY consistent problem (i.e. there is never a time when the vehicle sits for MORE than 1-hour where I do not encounter this problem). I think it might be a fuel pump or fuel pressure sensor problem, but the "mechanic" stated that the pump pressure was just fine when he tested it.
I need suggestions on what to do/say to the dealership because I am taking it back to them tomorrow.
Thanks!
I have a 2003 Grand Cherokee, 8 cyl., 2-wheel drive, automative transmission.
The problem I have is that when I go to start the vehicle after it has been sitting for mre than 1-hour, that starter cranks and cranks for about 5-6 seconds, and then the engine finally turns over. If it has been just a few minutes since the car was running (i.e. you went to run an errand, ran into a store, and ran out 10-minutes later), and you start it back up again, it starts immediately, without hesitation. I have had this problem for nearly 3 weeks now. I should also mention that the battery, starter, and alternator have all been tested and checkout perfectly.
The vehicle has 35,000 miles on it, so it is still just barely (36,000 miles) within warranty. I have taken it to the dealership, and they had it for two days and stated that they "could not reproduce the problem". They recommended that I have them do a fuel injector service on it, and so I agreed to that. However, it STILL has the problem, and it is a VERY consistent problem (i.e. there is never a time when the vehicle sits for MORE than 1-hour where I do not encounter this problem). I think it might be a fuel pump or fuel pressure sensor problem, but the "mechanic" stated that the pump pressure was just fine when he tested it.
I need suggestions on what to do/say to the dealership because I am taking it back to them tomorrow.
Thanks!
Next day for work it would not start. Had the battery tested - said it was just a bit low. Had it charged. Still have that whirring problem and cannot get the vehicle started. Not sure what the next move to make should be. Any ideas?
and check if the icm ( ignition control systhem)ground.
check or replace fuel pump relays
First thing I would be looking at is the battery. When you got the jump the starter had the correct amount of amps to kick the starter's gear out all the way and start the car. I would have the shop do an individual cell check to see if there is a bad cell in the battery. The cold is when any weakness in the battery will pop up. The battery itself could be what killed your alternator the first time. What happens is that the battery never fully reaches a full charge so the alternator keeps on charging, overheats and cooks the internals. A basic way to see if the alternator is still good is to remove the positive battery cable while the engine is running, if the motor stays running it's good if it doesn't it's toasts. Either way have the charging system checked out after the battery is replaced. Another thing to consider is that thye did not test the battery after is sat in the cold overnight, like I said before that is when the battery is at it's weakest. Start with the battery first, if you are running a big sound system you should consider a spiral cell/Optima yellow top battery because it can handle the extra drain the system pulls, and it recovers better when you are just sitting in the drive listening to the radio.
It could also be the starter. The starter has a bendix built into it, in plain English it's the part that shoves the gear out of the starter housing to engage the flywheel and turn the engine over. The fact that when you had a friend gave you a boost the extra amps from the other car kicked the sticking bendix out. The only thing you can do is replace the starter, unless you are really mechanical and can rebuild it yourself. I highly recommend getting one from a local well established parts store NAPA comes to mind. I'm not sure of your money situation but the lifetime warranty always pays for itself because it is a completely rebuilt unit with all replaceable parts being replaced, the 1 or 2 year units are usually only cleaned up and the bad parts replaced leaving the rest of the old stuff in place untouched.
The other possibility is that your flywheel has a few missing teeth, but that usually causes a grinding sound not just a loud whirring.
Let us know what you find out.
The engine won't start when I get in and turn the key immediately, BUT if I turn the ignition on on and wait about 10 seconds, then crank it, she starts right up. Other than that, the engine runs fine.
I replaced the plugs and fuel filter a few days ago, and that made no difference.
Dirty fuel injectors?
Weak Fuel pump?
Any other ideas?
Thanks very much,
Tim
Does anyone have ideas what this could be?
Will the car jump start?
If you had a sudden engine failure like that, and the battery and cables check out, and turning the key does nothing, even with a jump, you may have to trace the problem from the ignition switch down to the starter motor.
occasionally when I go to start the car, it somewhat mis-starts and holds a static engine noise/whine. Kinda like the belts are not running smooth or the engine is not fully cranked. When I pull the key from the ignition, the engine stops and the starter repeatedly continues to engage over and over again. Even when the key is completely pulled from the ignition it continues to engage. I have to keep putting the key in the ignition and re-starting the car. It will hold the same static engine noise/whine for three or four tries. I have to keep repeating this process until the car eventually turns totally off. Then it will crank up with no problems at all. This happens about once a month. I have taken my 4runner to Toyota several times and they have not been helpful or cannot explain the problem.
Any help or insight would be very appreciated!
If it keeps up, I may trade it in for go for the 2003!
Michael C. in Charleston, SC
My first guess would be to swap out the starter motor but before I did that I would carefully inspect all the wires going to the motor and attaching to it.
I think you either have an internally defective starter or a short circuit in the wiring to it.
More remote guess would be the ignition switch. You could by-pass the ignition switch and work the starter with a remote starter device and see how the starter behaves.
I can't imagine why Toyota doesn't understand what to do. This is pretty elementary stuff.
Your starter draws a LOT of current. If it jams in the engaged position one day and won't turn off you are going to fry your battery cables and create a potential fire hazard, so you need to get this problem solved. It is more serious than it sounds to you.
TIA