2005-2007 Toyota Avalon

alpha01

1. Which two Avalon First Drives do you speak of? The one on Edmunds.com is all but gushing, proclaiming that Toyota finally has a real flagship.

 

2. A fully loaded Limited is about the same price as a Lexus ES330 (a few hundred dollars cheaper, actually), and offers several features not available on the Lexus, such as Dynamic Laser Cruise Control.

 

3+4: The car has not even begun its advertising campaign. How exactly would the general (non-enthusiast) buying public find out about a car that does not exist in dealer showrooms yet, nor has had any hard-copy magazine reviews, nor has had any internet or TV advertising?

 

5: Thats an assumption. Does anyone have stats that provide the demographic differences among the buyers of loaded Camrys, the Lexus ES, and Avalon? Or cross-shopping information? My assumption is that Toyota, as a company, is going to position the redesigns of the Camry/ES in a way so as to minimize the cannibalization of Avalon sales.

 

-Just my .02

~alpha

alpha01

6. IMO, the last two model years of Avalon sales came on the coat-tails of very little advertising or dealership emphasis. ONLY recently has Toyota even introduced ANY incentive on this model, and in most cases, its financing not cash back. I dont have data accessible on calendar year 2000 Sales of the Avalon, but I believe it was around 80,000 units. I think 100K is ambitious, but I highly doubt you will see an oversupply, at least not one that will drive down prices significantly.

 

7. Toyota's position of this vehicle is key. I agree that the trunk is smaller than expected, but its a calculated risk. Toyota is definitely NOT positioning its car as a performance vehicle. I'm not sure how this car loses to the Camry in terms of value (especially if you factor in things like V6 fuel economy... Camry 3.0L is rated 20/28 and Avalon 3.5L is rated 22/31, and resale...). And Im not sure how you've determined what is too much power in styling and engine for older folks, but I sure do see a lot driving Northstar powered Devilles with similar HP and more torque.

 

~alpha

mcardle

That's my line and I'm sticking to it.

 

Hopefully, people will start to listen, so that by summer when my Highlander lease is up, I can pick up a Limited with all the options for $25k.

 

I had intended to cross shop Accord, Camry, Avalon, ES330 and TL. The first three would be optioned up, the last two already are. From what I have read (not driven), the Limited Avalon is the best combination of luxury, size and price for me.

 

So, keep up the negative talk and help me drive the cost down. Booooo!

By the way, I'm 31, a married dad, and just want a big luxury sedan at a family sedan price.

future1

Alpha:

 

1. Which two Avalon First Drives do you speak of? The one on Edmunds.com is all but gushing, proclaiming that Toyota finally has a real flagship.

 

The other 05 Avalon review is at newcartestdrive.com

 

2. A fully loaded Limited is about the same price as a Lexus ES330 (a few hundred dollars cheaper, actually), and offers several features not available on the Lexus, such as Dynamic Laser Cruise Control.

 

Umm, I can get a nearly fully loaded ES330 with Nav for $35,500. The Limited is more expensive at its MSRP, according to my calcs.

  

  

I'm not sure how this car loses to the Camry in terms of value (especially if you factor in things like V6 fuel economy... Camry 3.0L is rated 20/28 and Avalon 3.5L is rated 22/31, and resale...).

 

The fully loaded Camry XLE V6 with Nav sells for about $26,000. The fully loaded Avalon is $11,000 more expensive.

alpha01

Thank you, I will read the newcartestdrive.com article. However, you still failed to point out how the Edmunds.com article is negative?

 

I dont compare prices of vehicles based on what I, personally, would be able to get. You'll never see a comparison test in a magazine that quotes anything other than MSRP, and thats what I'm talking about, since its a point of standardized comparison.

 

Prices that the market will bear is a different story. But, apples to apples, a comparison should be using MSRP.

 

~alpha

abfisch

Alpha:

 

Can anyone explain to me the difference in this dynamic cruise control????? How much of a difference is it???? Does it break down more??? How much do people use CC in the first place?????

 

And speaking of marketing this new car to a specific market, not the sports car market, what is the then, advantage of sequential 5 speed auto tranny??? How many new Avalon owners are going to downshift when approaching a long grade or passing on a two lane highway???? Funny.

 

And then lets talk about those new HID's.. Do some people know that some of their illumination is acutally inferior and causes more glare secondary to a sharp cut off???? BMW has superior ones, but not all HID's are created equal. In fact, some halogen are still superior in nighttime illumination with a subtle cut off.

 

Can anyone comment on the similarity of the chassis??? Is it the Camry underneath??? Same struts and independent suspension????

 

Is the HVAC system, a system that can be turned off of "auto" and placed on manual????

 

Arthur

future1

However, you still failed to point out how the Edmunds.com article is negative?

 

Well, I didn't say it was negative, but that it was not a rave review. For example: "Avalon may not be as interesting as a Chrysler 300 or as exciting as a BMW 5 Series" and "The Touring model ... falls short of being a true sport sedan." I agree that the overall review was positive. My point is that it is not positive enough to justify the full MSRP.

  

Prices that the market will bear is a different story. But, apples to apples, a comparison should be using MSRP.

 

I don't see how this is apples to apples. If we have cars A and B, then everything else being equal (including the MSRPs for both), wouldn't you say that car B is a better buy, considering that it sells at a 15% discount to MSRP, compared to car A that sells at full MSRP?

 

Of course, the discounts, consumer rebates, and dealer's incentives change over time and vary according to geographical regions. That's why the standard comparisson is based on MSRP. But if you fail to take the actual price into consideration when comparing the cars, I don't see how this is fair to yourself (the buyer).

motownusa

Did anyone read the Avalon review in the latest Consumer Guide issue? A very positive review that states that the engine and the transmission works perfectly and that the car responds to the slightest throttle input. I am sort of paraphrasing here.

future1

Here is the exact quote: "Smooth V6 teams splendidly with a transmission that furnishes buttery upshifts, delivers quick passing power by responding to even subtle throttle pressure." Sounds great -- looks they did address the throttle issue, after all. I think we all should celebrate.

 

The entire (very positive) review is here.

 

One thing that I could not understand is this: "Limited's keyless ignition a mixed blessing; freedom from having keyfob at hand is offset by reality that car will remain running even without fob nearby." Does anyone understand what CG is talking about?

 
They also said something really strange about the 2006 (next year) model: "[For 2006] We'd expect new styling on the conservative side, little changed dimensions, and a powertrain update to the 3.3-liter V6 and 5-speed automatic transmission as available in the parent Camry." Huh?

 

autoguy1

Although future1 thinks that the ES330 is more of a vaule, I'd like to respectfully disagree with you.

 

While one might find the ES330 more appealing (personal styling preferences, interior, etc.), you really can't say that it has more vaule since there are more features on the Avalon compared to ES330.

 

Here's some:

A more powerful engine (Not to say the 3.3L V6 is not adequate, it's more than needed)

Dynamic Laser Cruise (From personal experience, it's a nifty feature that becomes quite useful during trips)

Reclining Rear Seats

(I think) Extendable Driver's Seat

Something special about the windshield

Smart Key

Driver's Knee Airbag (not sure if that's standard or even available on the ES330)

 

Now the ES330 has a few advantages:

 

Real Wood Trim

Perhaps a better dealership expierence

Less Bugs (Cars in it's first years are never that good)

Mark Levinson (I think the JBL is very good, again judging from my Sienna's JBL Sound system)

I'm no so sure but I think that VSC/TRAC w/all the Side Airbags are standard.

 

But personally, I find a Avalon or ES330 more of "apples to oranges"

ellis1

I'm 72 and if I buy the 05 Avalon it will be my third Avalon. However, I'm bored with the bland look of past Avalons, I'm hoping the Touring model will have a little more pazzazz. I'm thinking black on black, the bigger wheels, the lip spoiler, 280hp. Could be a looker.

bklynguy

future1 said:

 

One thing that I could not understand is this: "Limited's keyless ignition a mixed blessing; freedom from having keyfob at hand is offset by reality that car will remain running even without fob nearby." Does anyone understand what CG is talking about?

 

Their concern may have to do with older people (or for that matter younger people with alot on their minds) forgetting to shut the car off if they don't have to remove a key.

 

 
According to the CG review, the XLS,Limited models have better "natural" steering than the Touring model.

ederzawiec

It is too early to judge demand on the 2005 Avalon, hence the price you are likely to negotiate.

 

Prior to availability at dealer showrooms, it is common for potential buyers to study specs, photos, reviews, etc. They generate all sorts of excitement in forums such as this. However, most people have to wait to see and drive the car before they are ready to fork over cash and create appreciable demand.

 

Six months ago, I was pretty excited about the 2005 Ford Five Hundred. Specs and photos had me "Sold". Saw the car's cheap interior and here I am. At the moment, I'm disappointed with several of Avalon's specs related to size, but who knows, maybe when I actually see it I'll be "Sold".

future1

bklynguy: Their concern may have to do with older people (or for that matter younger people with alot on their minds) forgetting to shut the car off if they don't have to remove a key.

 

Yeah, OK, that makes sense now. Thanks, bklynguy.

ederzawiec

Anyone know what the Consumer Guide Review is referring to..

 

"Toyota will reportedly proceed with a redesigned Avalon for 2006"

autoguy1

bklynguy: Their concern may have to do with older people (or for that matter younger people with alot on their minds) forgetting to shut the car off if they don't have to remove a key.

 

Then wouldn't it be bad since it says the car remains on?

bklynguy

I'm not sure but I think an alarm will go off if the fob leaves the vehicle with the engine on.

bartalk2

That sentence in CG is an editing error; they forgot to remove the sentence from the previous edition, before the new model had been introduced.

alpha01

bartalk2- I completely agree. You'd think they'd be more careful.

 

 
That article is also fraught with factual inaccuracies. Stability control is not available ONLY on the Limited, and its NOT standard on that trim either. We all know from much discussion that VSC is optional on both XLS and Limited, and unavailable right now on the XL and Touring.

 

~alpha

bklynguy

It also states: All but XL model have xenon headlamps. The XLS doesn't have xenon (HID) headlamps.

dmorthole

It doesn't seem they actually know what they're saying. It just seems they are grading holistically and stating obvious facts.

motownusa

Well, the way the review was written gives the impression that someone working for the magazine actually spent some time behind the wheels.

just__me

PLEASE HELP. Can anyone here please tell me what the difference in ride performance would be between the 16 inch and 17 inch tires being offered on the 2005 Avalon. I am thinking of purchasing the XL and wonder if I should upgrade to the 17 inch tires, if it really doesn't noticeably improve the ride then there is no point in spending the money unless it adds some safety to the ride on wet or slick surfaces???. Please help and explain, it will be appreciated. Incidentally for those of you on here, I have already gotten a price on the XL Avalon, and it seems as if they are giving me off the MSRP as much as $2,000. I'm in SC, hope this helps everyone.

jdeib

It depends on what "improved ride" means to you. The tire size goes down by the amount of size the wheel goes up. So you would have a shorter sidewall on the tire. This generally improves the stiffness of the sidewall and provides a firmer, more "sporty" ride. The sixteen inch wheel would be a slightly less firm ride. (More like what a Buick ride is) But please keep in mind, sedans in this class just a few years ago ran 14 inch wheels and 15 inch wheels were the "sporty" option.

 

I would guess that all grades of the Avalon, except the Touring, have the same suspension settings. I would be surprised if most drivers would notice a difference in the wheel sizes on an Avalon.

 

My personal advice would be to drive them both if possible, but you probably wont miss the 17 inch wheels.

 

I'm thinking that the XL Avalon may be a surprisingly popular option for buyers, it may just convince most of those shopping the higher end Camrys that for the same money (and maybe a few less bells and whistles) they could get a bigger, more powerful car.

 

Good luck.

bartalk2

If you want safety equipment such as traction control, stability control, and xenon headlights, you have to go all the way to the top--the Limited, at over $35,000 when you count all the other options they'll load onto it. Clever but cynical. That's behind their omission of traction & stability control from the "sporty" Touring model, a decision that makes absolutely no sense from an engineering standpoint.

 

Also, have heard nothing from any of the early reviews of possible problems with torque steer with a powerful front-drive engine, and turning circle, an important handling component. How about it?

just__me

Thank you so much for your input. That settles it, I don't want a stiffer ride, so the 16 inch tires will do it. There is one minus on the XL for the 2005 Avalon, they did away with the passenger seat power, I guess they want to push you to the XLS.

prince812

Just wondering. Has anyone actually driven one? (I am speaking of a consumer test driving one)

It seems there is a lot of excitement, but is it realy warranted? I am looking forward to it myself, but I would like to hear from someone who has actually seen the interior and felt the ride.

alpha01

Not quite, if you want VSC and TRAC, you can choose the XLS with the VSC, TRAC, and Heated Seats option and that puts you at $32,430.

 

I agree with you on the Touring model.

 

And, you're right- none of the early reviews point to any torque steer issues, AND all three that I've seen commented that the transmission and engine are perfectly synchronized- no mention of hesitation whatsoever. Good things.

 

Finally, dont forget that 2005 is going to be a short year for Avalon, likely only about 6 months, 8 months maximum. I'll bet that for 2006, there will be a greater availability of the VSC. Who knows, once Toyota's second generation stability control (VDIM.. for Vehicle Dynamics Integration Management) is introduced, maybe that will be on the top line models and VSC on the lower line. All speculation, but it could happen. VDIM will debut with the Lexus GS, and RX/Highlander Hybrids.

 

~alpha

 

PS- I like the deep orange-red Optitron pointers on the Touring model. I picked up the brochure at the local Toyota dealer today (I have the day off work) and I noticed that this is the only model that uses that color, the others all use a white scheme.

bartalk2

Yes, but it you want xenons, plus traction/stability control, as I indicated, that combination is available ONLY on the Limited, at about $35,500.

cove148

Your point is well taken about 2005 being a short year. Assuming that the dealers try to hold close to MSRP through the summer, then why not wait until fall and buy a 2006? Surly there will not be any change, glitz will be off the car, year newer when you trade and initial demand has been eliminated.

alpha01

Ahh.. missed the xenons part, my bad, but I dont really care about those since they have a higher rate of theft and none do particularly well in CR's headlight testing... what are the benefits?

 

~alpha

mackabee

None. All they do is blind oncoming drivers.

                    ; )

                    Mackabee

 

back to sleep.

future1

Here is the CR article in question:

 

http://www.consumerreports.org/main/content/display_report.jsp?FO- LDER%3C%3Efolder_id=400057&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=389451&- bmUID=1106781303342

bartalk2

Despite CR's article, I find the xenons on the cars I've driven brighter and throw more light on the road, which I need. Each to his own.

autoguy1

Well, it's quite simple. I find it to have more light that illuminates the road better. I have never tried the auto-leveling Xenons by Toyota/Lexus but my Sienna is controlled via a switch so I choose the level it's at and when I load up where my butt of my Sienna goes down and nose goes up, I can still choose not to shine on coming people.

 

How lights on the RX330, GX and LX470 is beyond me but Xenons are quite useful.

 

I've actually vowed to try to find cars with Xenons first instead Halogens.

larryt22

Doesn't look like anyone has or they would be speaking up. I have 5 dealers fairly close to me who have their inventory on-line. I have been checking every couple of days and none of them have had a new Avalon appear on the web yet, but .... I suppose even if they do update the inventory regularly, they could have sold the unit and had it never show up. But my guess is the dealers haven't had one show up yet.

ederzawiec

I personally have no interest in these, but couldn't you just buy Xenon replacement bulbs and put them in an XL or other trim. (Yes they are very expensive, but so are the higher trims. The Halogens you's be throwing away are probably worth $20)

mrjjgittes

FYI, I have read many accounts of xenons being stolen from Infiniti I-35s. Apparently they are easy to remove from that car. Just a consideration.

fd1000

I am betting that no one has actually driven the 2005 Toyota Avalon. I am including magazines in that statement (despite their bland reviews)

 

There have only been a few short reviews online, and if you read them closely, they really do not give any specific information about the cars (that you couldn't get from a press release). They all say the same thing. I do not think that even the magazines have driven this car yet.

 

Until an article says "We drove it on highways in California, or Wyoming, or anywhere", I am not going to assume they actually drove it.

 

Has ANYONE been able to find any pictures of the 2005 Toyota Avalon that are NOT press pictures from the Auto Show, and are NOT Toyota promotion pictures? Essentially, has anyone seen any pictures of this car on a dealer lot? Or on a truck? Or sitting in someones driveway? (I have seen a few older spy pictures, from before the car show) I sure have not, and I search everyday...

 

You just know there is some huge lot filled with brand-new Toyota Avalons someone where in KY, waiting to be delivered. Just wish someone would go over there and snap a few pictures!

mackabee

As I said before the car has been released to the truckers. They are sitting at the ports waiting for the word from Tms to send them to the dealers. Next week by Tuesday or Wednesday every dealer should have at least one. Be patient my children.

                       : )

                   Mackabee

bklynguy

Yeah, some of us could wait until Nov. and some of us can't even wait for the first avalons to make it to the dealer lots next week

fin

Look back at one of my prior posts and you will see a comment about "every dealer in the country has one before anybody gets one." Local dealer here in Georgia told me this months ago. Toyota is playing this model change for all it is worth. Judging the interest from the number of posts here, it's working. If we don't cool off a little we are all going to be paying $500. over the full sticker and claim we got a bargain.

:-))

jdeib

Check out thecarconnection.com. They just posted a review of the new Avalon by John Pearley Huffman. He actually drove it! (What a refreshing concept) Anyway, it's a decent read. The author asks the question that some here have; "Who needs the ES 330?"

bklynguy

nice review, the Avalon is a better Lexus

 

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=8037&sid=18- - - - 0&n=157

 

I'm not sure if this review(or preview) was posted since its dated Jan-05-2005

 

http://www.jsonline.com/wheels/test/jan05/294432.asp

ellis1

I was following this discussion group when the newly designed 2000 Avalon came out. There were a lot more posts at that time about the new 2000 Ava then there is now about the 2005. And, I brought the XLS the first day it was on the lot at a substantial discount. I don't think this time will be any different.

crv16

Has ANYONE been able to find any pictures of the 2005 Toyota Avalon that are NOT press pictures from the Auto Show, and are NOT Toyota promotion pictures?

 

I can't post a link, but if you go to the autoweek web site, and check out "future sheetmetal" section of the "combustion chamber", you will see some real life shots in the Avalon thread. The natural lighting makes it look much nicer.

abfisch

The only logical comparison is to compare cars with and without, and similar cars with Xenon and Halogen. Not all Xenon nor Halogen are the same. The lens quality and bulbs as well as ballats make a difference. Xenons as a $800 price tag option or inclusion in a package, are alot of money, if you don't get the bang for your buck. Buyer beware. Let's let some objective testing be done before we are sold on them.

 

abfisch

pmcb48

2 of my 3 local dealers are holding to MSRP at this point (one overtly, one implied by only mentioning MSRP of their single incoming car); these 2 dealers also imply that any discount at the 3rd dealer (e.g., $500) given to get the deal would be swallowed up in the fine print by a "dealer prep" fee of a matching amount. I put down $500 deposit when I ordered my Sienna. One local dealer wants a $1000 deposit to give you "refusal" rights on whatever Avalon comes in (but not an order). If you want it, you can have it, or pass and take a look at the next unordered car to arrive. This dealer currently has 2 people lined up with "refusal" deposits for their first Avalon, which is a defacto waiting list. As long as people are doing that, I don't see them discounting from MSRP. :-(

  Re HID headlights. My wife loves the HID headlights on our Sienna limited, and says she finally feels completely safe driving at night. Mackabee's "all they do is blind oncoming drivers" comment is obviously an oversimplification.

autoguy1

I did forget to mention, I have Xenons on the Sienna but my Camry has regular Halogens. I MUCH prefer the Xenons than the Halognes. I see more distance compared to the halogens.

 

I do have to keep in mind that I shouldn't bring the Sienna into bad neighborhoods.

buckwheat

For those who want to read anything available on the Avalon..

 

http://home.bellsouth.net/s/editorial.dll?bfromind=638&eeid=4- 418360&_sitecat=96&eetype=article&render=y&ck=&am- p;ch=au