2005-2007 Toyota Avalon

hamick

Yes, I have a 05 avalon limited and drive to monuntains in snow and traction control gets you stuck half way up the hill. cannot wait!!!

captain2

actually should be the companion TRAC that will get you stuck - VSC would be the one that could limit your ability to execute some sort of avoidance manuever keeping you from an accident. And ABS would be the one that may lengthen your stopping distances for the same result. And, all that said, all three may also have the opposite effect.
The problem with these 'safety' features is that they must be calibrated (or set to intervene) for what I'll call the 'lowest common denominator' driver - otherwise they wouldn't be a 'safety' feature at all. Why the car buying public is so 'hot-to-trot' for VSC/TRAC equipped vehicles is beyond me. Perhaps if I was 90 years old, had bad eyesight, arthritis, and extremely poor reaction times I could understand. IMO, it ought to be law that these systems be easily switched off!

tjc78

What I would like is a "log" of when and if VSC becomes active. For example this morning on a slightly wet road a tractor trailer switched lanes right into me (@ 75+). I agressively cut the wheel into the shoulder and floored it to get around him. The car handled beautifully, but don't know if it was on its own or with VSC's help. If any indicator came on I wouldn't have noticed it during the moment.

On another note I think I remember reading there is a way to disable the VSC/Trac but it is a lengthy procedure that has to be done every time the car is started.

tjc78

Read post # 10630. I believe that the procedure described should work on the Avalon too.

captain2

a common misperception about these systems - if your car 'handled beautifully' it was because the VSC did NOT get in the way. What will happen when VSC does its job: a feeling of sluggishness as throttle and steering inputs are slowed and brakes maybe even applied for you - exactly the opposite of a 'beautifully handling' car. VSC does NOT in any way make your car handle better, it simply prevents you from doing something IT doesn't want you to do and may, in the process, save your bacon by doing so. But, it is good, that you were 'allowed' to complete the manuever that you did!

user777

now that is a procedure.

i'd be weary about disabling these safety features.

what would happen if one was in an accident and by some means, the investigating authorities or insurance company working with the manufacturer could inspect the last x-seconds of ECU/TCM/ABS data just prior to air-bag deployment and determine the systems were disabled?

captain2

and conversely, those same 'authorities' discover, that because of VSC activation, an accident happened that a capable driver could have avoided?

user777

interesting point. i'm not sure they'd actually be performing that analysis. i'm figuring authorities will look to assign blame or to deny coverage, not look to see if there was a mismatch between automation and human capability.

i'm reminded of a post claiming vsc activated erroneously, applying the brakes and sending the driver into the oncomming lane... also a few posts on unintentional vehicle acceleration (supposidly caused by a floor mat applying force to the accelerator pedal).

scarey, but i see a market for high-tech vehicle forensics to review post-crash data.

captain2

no, of course, they wouldn't be doing that kind of analysis because there is no way to quantify any specific driver's (or car's) abilities short of putting them on a race track.
the VSC/TRACs and to some extent the ABSs now in many vehicles are there to make cars 'idiot proof' and must, to some extent, limit evasive capabilities for those that may not be quite the idiots that the systems were designed to accomodate. The 'problem' that I see is what I perceive to be a common notion that these systems somehow improve a car's dynamic capabilities - which, of course, they don't!

tjc78

I am on the fence about Trac and VSC. My 2000 Solara had Trac and my 03 Av XL didn't. I never missed it in the '03. I do remember that the Solara's Trac was always interfering (total throttle deactivation at times), enough so that if I had to make a fast turn into traffic I had to disable it (via the switch on the console). On my '06 Av it almost never comes on unless its wet. Did Toyota adjust the sensitivity, or does the Avalon have better grip? In any case, I guess I like the "reassurance" that the computer can help out if needed, but OTOH I want to be in control of the car. If the system was easily deactivated, I would probably disable it whenever the roads were dry, but in icy/rainy conditions I think it has some merit.

nimimi

"OTOH?"

tjc78

OTOH - "On the other hand"

captain2

and it may be those icy/snowy road conditions that you really DON'T want traction control - as anyone who has been stuck in a car that 'refuses' to move can tell you. don't get me wrong, though - it is not that these systems should not be considered or they are not an overall improvement in vehicle safety - especially if the buyer understands what they are really capable of doing. but, with all good generally comes some bad and, at least, if we are to deal with things like this, we should have the option to [easily] turn it off!

tjc78

You are right, On my Solara you could have the throttle wide open and the car would do nothing. Not good if your trying to get unstuck (in the snow). I haven't had the '06 in the snow yet, but I am printing out the disabling instructions and keeping them in the car just in case.

The VSC/Trac option must be a good money maker for Toyota because here in the northeast every single model I looked at from XL to Limited had the option installed.

morris3

I have dtc's of U0f00 and P1378 indicated. According to the Dealer the U0f00 code is associated with the Laser Cruise (computer network code) and the dealer does not know (according to them) what the P1378 code is. All codes above 1000 are vender specific. The Laser Cruise works just fine. Also when I reset the DTC's (reset the computer) the two codes come right back. Has anyone else snooped into the computer/or have any suggestions? The dealer won't look at unless the Laser Cruise malfunctions.

blackdog4

One cold night it was snowing lightly, the temp was well below freezing and I was in my 2002 heading North in New Hampshire towards ski country. I am not an agressive driver, was on an interstate highway on an upgrade in 4WD when I pulled into the passing lane and passed several slower vehicles. As the grade got steeper and I had one more car to pass, the yellow dash lights began to flash and the throttle was cut. Directional control of my SUV was maintained perfectly, the lights went out and I pulled back into the right hand lane. Near the Vermont border I stopped at a truck stop and they told me there there had been several accidents in the past hour due to "black ice". Despite years of driving in bad conditions here in New England, I obviously was skating on thin ice so to speak and I did not even realize it. I am all for these aids. When starting from a dead stop, I have learned to get the vehicle moving before agressively accelerating and I have not encountered any situations that have placed me in danger.

blackdog4

I forgot which forum I was in! My previous post was about my 2002 Sequoia and I had just been in that forum. I have a 1997 Avalon also that I will replace in the next six months with another Avalon so still read this forum . I would certainly want VSC/Trac in my new Avalon and would not disable it.

captain2

with the advent of DBW steering, throttle, brakes, tranny controls etc., it will obviously become cheaper and cheaper for ALL cars to have these systems because all it is, a silly computer program after you get by the 'wiring'. To the point, that I am guessing that within 5 years or so, it will become standard equipment on all cars (and possibly even federally mandated). Whether we like it or not, or even whether it is good or not - doesn't matter - difficult to argue with what is perceived as being in the public interest!

captain2

I have learned to get the vehicle moving before agressively accelerating and I have not encountered any situations that have placed me in danger.
Just curious - what would you do in that unlikely event that you HAD to move more quickly than your truck's computer thought was prudent - bail?

netwon

Hello all,

I've been following the VSC/TRAC/ABS posts for years now. I grew up in northern Canada (NWT/Alberta Border). 6 months of the year we are up to our eyeballs in snow and ice. -40 F from mid Dec - Feb. I grew up driving FWD and RWD without anything electric in it. (No I'm not talking about 40 years ago, I'm on 26). If you drive on snow and ice long enough you'll realize that my fathers adage of "pretend there is a duck egg beneath your gas peddle" is true and that if you are gentle with the gas you'll find yourself up many hills others in there large SUV's/cars with Electronic nannies can't touch. It's not the cars/SUV's fault its the drivers. If you are pressing the throttle hard enough to spin the tires in the first place either a) your pressing too hard or b) the roads are so icy your co-eff of friction is so small between the tires and the road you had best not be on the roads because nothing will help.

Just my two cents.

Netwon

PS - My mother drives a 99 Avalon XLS which only came with TRAC as an option. (VSC came in 2000 MY) She called me last winter (she's owend the car since new) and asked what the Amber flashing light was when she was pulling away from a traffic light. 6 years with the car and she turned the light on once (that she noticed). Perhaps the electrics are making us poorer drivers, as when I tested her car I was not as lucky and couldn't stop the light from coming on. And got an earful of why I was on the gas so hard in her baby.

tjc78

Just in case anyone does want to disable VSC/Trac the instructions in post #10630 worked in my 06 XLS (w/o Nav if that makes a difference). The VSC and Trac lights stayed on after the procedure. When I restarted the car all was normal.

captain2

exactly - and you live in one of the few places where driving on/thru snow is a frequent problem. Anybody that has spent anytime driving in these conditions knows that the way to succeed is, as you say, slow ALL your control inputs (what VSC/Trac is supposed to do for you) AND maintain momentum albeit at a very sane speed. And sometimes as you struggle to keep up your forward progress you will have your car in attitudes that a VSC system would never 'allow'. This is how you get yourself up many hills those 'nannies' can't touch.
Not to mention, those time honored traditions to get yourself unstuck - spinning the drive wheels (effectively burning off the ice under your tires), back and forth until you have managed enough of that momentum in one direction or the other to get yourself moving. Another thing a TRAC equipped vehicle would likely not permit.

blackdog4

I've had my Sequoia since November of 2001 and so far have not put myself in that position. I live in the Boston area and have to do a lot of fast merging and the above technique works well for me.

navguy

Prior to satellite radio, only radio stations with RDS would show information. Then satellite radio showed up which would show album, artist and track information. The newer displays should show or scroll the information from these new digital devices.

rbarbot

Did you ever find out what your starting problem was, or get any solution? I have an 06 with the same issue. The ignition will crank but not start. Then, on the 2nd attempt, it starts fine. It does this a few times a week and the dealer can't re-create it, although Toyota says they are aware of this occurring. Any help would be great. Thanks.

j_hbrock

Just a quick note (more at the "Price Paid" subforum)

I got a 2007 Touring for 500 under invoice!!

ski1003

I have never received an answer for this problem from Toyata. When I leave it there for them to check, it never happens. It still happens about once a week. Same symptoms that you have. I keep asking about it when I have oil change every 3000 miles.

jhavign

I'm also looking to buy an 07 Touring. I'm in the Boston area, what part of the country are you from

captain2

today, NHTSA is announcing that VSC/TRAC will be required for all new cars - contending that 10000 lives and hundreds of thousands of accidents would be avoided. May be true although there is no number, of course, for the number of accidents/lives that systems like this might cause due to limiting the ultimate evasive capability of a vehicle, or for whatever happens when these systems inherit 'Windows -like' electronic gremlins and simply malfunction until they are 'rebooted'.
A few predictions: 1) complaints from motorists (rightly or wrongly) contending that 'the car went dead and wouldn't let me avoid this accident', or things like 'the brakes went on by themselves' or 'I pulled out and the car wouldn't move' - will become common and possibly even rampant; 2) because of the federal mandate these systems will not be allowed to be disabled - no VSC off switch; and 3) there will be a new market created for those that can figure out how to shut off/adjust these systems especially for the driving enthusiast.

lgigante

I've been doing some research of blades for the Avy. Trico has recently come out with a new blade that they call The INNOVISION. It looks exactly like the AVY's. It's called a BEAM TYPE blade). I called Trico and the person I spoke to didn't know anything about Avalons but said they DO come up to 28in. long. (Avalons are not listed on their website) See http://www.tricoproducts.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=2838&location_id=65

NAPA stores are listed as dealers so I called my local store. They DO have them but didn't know that Trico now supplies 26 and 28 in. blades. He said he could special order them till they get on the shelves. (He said the 24 in. refill cost $18.)
I will take my car in and see how close they are and will post my results.
P.S. Love everything about my Limited.

wwest

I have a 2001 AWD RX300 with VSC/Trac and a 2001 Porsche 911/996 C4(AWD) with PSM, Porsche Stability Management.

My experiences with the RX's VSC/Trac activation have been very few, 2 or 3 at the most, and there were at times that I was totally unsuspecting of any traction problem/issue. I'm relative sure that there was an indication of same, both visual and aural, but the "event" was so short of duration and so occupied my total attention that I had no time to look or "acknowledge" the indications.

Insofar as I can say the Porsche's PSM has never activated, not even with pushing it so hard at Daytona that the "tail" tried to come around a few times.

But there is a significant difference in the two "stability" implementations. The Porsche system actually delays the activation of PSM for a few hundred milliseconds to give the driver time, an opportunity, to react and correct the situation on his/her own.

If VSC ends up being mandated, and I would champion that being the case, maybe a switch can be provided to indicate to the system that the driver is an experienced one as relates to the dynamics of maintaining control on adverse roadbed conditions.

I could readily see, otherwise, where there will be cases wherein simultaneous system activation and driver corrective measures would result in over-correction and possibly an otherwise avoidable accident.

And I still think VSC should be used to prevent ABS activation unless directional control is threatened.

wwest

the easiest, simpliest, way to disable VSC/Trac is to disconnect the MAF/IAT while the engine is idling. Once the engine quits reconnect the MAF/IAT and be on your way. The VSC/Trac will remain disabled for the next few driving cycles.

j_hbrock

Might be hard to get the same deal - I dunno. I am in Southern Calif. I used Fightingchance.com and carbuyingtips.com for all my strategies and "manuvering".

Most of the other dealers I dealt with couldn't believe the offer I was given and tried hard to beat it but said there was no way.

captain2

But there is a significant difference in the two "stability" implementations
Of course there are - and this would be where I can see many drivers having problems with the mandatory/non-disengageable VSC/TRAC. The implementation (or intervention settings) for those cars that are not 911's; must, by any reasonable definition of a safety feature, be set to help those drivers of limited capabilities.
I am certainly do not have the same reaction times etc. that I did 20 years ago when I messed around in parking lots (AC) and hill climbs, and I am likely a more capable driver now than I will be in another 20 years. Note that I didn't say 'better'. And I would guess, for however unrealistic the average driver (including myself) is about their individual abilities, most would concede that those abilities to handle a car in adverse conditions does erode with age.
So, in the cases, of the average family sedan/SUV like the Avalon/RX - how must Toyota 'program' its VSC intervention levels? To keep me out of trouble when - me of 20 years ago, today, or 20 years from now? I am afraid that the answer to that question is exactly where the difficulties may be with mandated/non-switchable 'safety' systems..

jlsexton

Okay, sounds great BUT what's in it and what is invoice. Each dealer gets a holdback depending on volume, so invoice can be relative. I purchased a loaded Limited except for Nav for a little over $32,000. This was a good price but not a great price, so they threw in (?) 5 oil changes valued at $125.00.

j_hbrock

I posted in the Prices Paid forum - Invoice:$27965 --OTD:$30262. Sure, they get a 2% hold back, a 1% Wholesale Financial Reserve and 1-2% TDA (regional advertising). I made sure THEY KNEW I KNEW about these from the get go.

jlsexton

Then apparently you did your homework and did well on the purchase depending on again, whats in the vehicle. With options now averaging in the near $1000 mark it can go up rather quickly. I like my Avalon, although I must admit size wise it is a much larger vehicle to navigate than my Camry was but I only have about 800 miles on it. Does anyone know exactly how the traffic alert works, must it be in a metropolitan area.

captain2

maybe a switch can be provided to indicate to the system that the driver is an experienced one as relates to the dynamics of maintaining control on adverse roadbed conditions
This somehow calling for me to go out and drive like a crazy fool in order to convince a silly computer that I either do or do not know what I am doing?

captain2

Duh!, how about 'moot point'

lmacmil

I would like to hear of one documented incident (i.e., proven via engineering analysis) where a stability control system caused an accident by not allowing the driver his intended evasive manuever. They will be as hard to find as the proverbial hen's teeth.

kuyper

Randomly the audio system will quit or the Volume Control will stop working, both on the steering wheel switch or on the radio. Some time later it will work ok for a while. The dealer replaced the steering wheel switch and the radio. Any ideas?

wwest

I was 66 in July.

But your point is well made, very well made and an important one too.

At Daytona I was fully alert and fully prepared to quickly react to any untoward event.

But in point of fact NONE of us, regardless of age, can be constantly alert and prepared for these "events" for all the time we spend behind the wheel. Great to have VSC, PSM, Trac for backup.

topgear

Concerning your audio problem. I have an '06 Limited Avalon and did not have that happen. HOWEVER, it did happen on my '06 Solara convertible once, which has a very similar radio layout. I could not control the volume for a ½ minute or so. Then it worked just fine. I didn't think about this again until you mentioned your problem.
Never happened again though. But very weird!
Do you have the DVD Nav? I do on both cars. I wonder...
Pete

j_hbrock

Well, I did not want to mess around with the NAV system - heard too many bad things about it - kinda scared me away.

I got the JBL Synthesis, Pwr Moonroof, and floor mats.

topgear

The reason why I asked about the Nav is because I thought there might be a connection. Apparently not.
Too bad the navigation system is getting such a bad rap. Although using it isn't the most efficient, with it's poorly designed controller, I still would recommend it. (I know, ...too late for you).
It is still very effective and I use it all the time. I do use some choice words when programming it though, but I love it when it directs me to my destination!
Anyway, good luck with your Avalon -keep us posted with your solution -if you or the dealer find one.

bluesman3

I did the exact same method to purchase my 07' Touring, except I didn't use Fighting Chance. I took delivery on mine 8/28 and it's truly a wonderful car.

Titanium Metallic

Options:
JBL stereo
Sunroof
VSC

Invoice:
$29,342

MSRP:
$32,545

Price paid:
$29,332

Customized features:
32% tint - back 3 windows
Autostart remote start system
Clearshield clear bra system

Soon to be added:
XM radio
Ipod interface
Toyota Avalon Limited wheels

oilcan2

FYI:Check ebay under toyota avalon 06,a seller has the shop
manual on PDF for buy it now of $1.99,$7.95 shipping (is on
cd).looks like a decent buy to me.

captain2

the 911 being one of those few cars - 60%+ rear weight bias, that would need as much 'help' as possible - why, maybe because at the limit corrections tend to be counterintuitive (power on). The earlier 911's without all the electronics, without all the 'help', while several orders of magnitude superior to other 'sports' cars of its day, certainly a real handful and possibly dangerous to the average driver. Kinda surprises me that even on a track, your newer 911 systems would even 'allow' that rear end snap that Porsches are famous for.
And FWD cars, like our Avalons, kind of the opposite situation with the same weight bias to the front. For whatever benefits in traction and stability come with that, the ultimate corrections to the same at the limit situations are 'intuitive' or power off. I contend FWD a generally safer condition for the average driver, although it is foolish to even entertain the notion that a 50/50 (or so) weight distribution, rear wheels driven setup isn't ultimately better, if that limit behavior is a mild understeer condition.
I am concerned that there seems to be a large portion of the car buying public out there that doesn't seem to understand what VSC/TRAC/ABS actually do. They spend their money and think somehow they are getting a better handling car and/or the 'car' is impervious to gross errors. They may definitely be buying a 'safer' car, but not without a price in overall drivability. Thankfully I don't live in snow country anymore - the first thing I think I would want to do on snow covered roads is turn the VSC/TRAC off!

captain2

you are right about that - how would ever be able to prove that if the car allowed you to accelerate and swerve violently that you could have controlled the result? But, I am guessing that there will be a number of drivers that do end up in unavoidable accidents, frustrated by the result (and probably overestimating their own abilities), will blame a VSC intervention.
did have a situation about a year ago where I avoided an multiple car accident with a violent, accelerating high speed swerve onto a gravelly shoulder, breaking the rear end loose as I did. Can't imagine that any VSC system worth its salt would have 'allowed' me to do that, and my Avalon should have been toast. But, from your perspective, I certainly can't 'prove' what could've happened, had my Av been VSC/TRAC equipped. And never will.

wwest

There seems to be a basic misunderstanding of just exactly how VSC operates. If you decide to "swerve" and the vehicle understears, does not fully follow your stearing inputs, the VSC activity is such to reduce the level of understearing. On the other hand if the vehicle over-stears, wags the tail, the VSC activity is such that it reduces the effects of overstearing.

The only danger I foresee is the possibility of over-correction if the driver happens to "sense" the out of whack condition and act to correct it at the same time as the system.

And I have no idea of how it was done, but Porsche has removed the "snap" type of tail wagging, at least in the newer 996 series.