The last three cars I've had with five speed auto transmissions were real slugs at freeways speeds while in 5th gear. All could climb any hill easily - in fourth, and all had no trouble passing on two lane roads - usually a two or three gear downshift. None of the cars I have driven with five speed automatics (including test drives and rentals) have had an imperceptible downshift to fourth and upshift to fifth. However, some could climb most hills because the manufacturer did not set the transmission to downshift until there was a large gas pedal movement compared to most, that downshift at a small pedal movement.
Two of the five speed cars above had V8 engines and nearly 300 hp. The current one has a 240 hp V6. The current car will, at freeway speeds, downshift on even small hills and cannot maintain freeway speeds in fifth gear against a strong head wind. Yet all three cars are/were quite peppy when driven aggressively.
The point I was trying to make is as cars get heavier a larger engine (within reason) can provide better high gear part throttle performance than a similar horsepower smaller displacement engine, with little or no loss in economy.
My experience has been that all else being similar the size of the engine does not have a big effect on mpg. At one time I had three cars that all gave essentially the same mpg. One had a V8, one a V6, and one a 4. Engine size went from 5.7L to 2L. All of the cars weighed within 100 pounds of each other. All had similar drag coefficients (close anyway). All had four speed automatic transmissions with locking torque converters. The bigger the engine the peppier the car was for part throttle high gear operation, yet mpg did not suffer because of the bigger engine. Yes, the big engine car was very fast at full throttle, but in my normal driving over 95%+ of the time it is part throttle driving
It is not the horsepower that determines how peppy a car is during part throttle high gear operation. It is torque and or final drive ratio. Normally the bigger the engine the more torque at lower rpm. This doesn't mean there aren't cars that already feel fine during high gear part throttle operation with a five speed transmission, just that many that don't would be with more displacement.
I like my Avalon, but it is getting up in years. When I look for a replacement I hope the new Avalon has at least as much performance in part throttle high gear operation as my 96 has now. I don't care if it has better full throttle performance, but if the new model gets heavier the added low rpm torque from a larger displacement engine should keep part throttle performance level, even with an extra gear or two.
Note: The only 'seemless' shifting cars I have driven are cars with essentially shiftless CVT transmissions (no abrupt rpm changes due to a gear change). Who knows, maybe the new Avalon will end up with one of these.
The new Acura RS is now up to 300hp, and in the few pictures I've seen looks like a Mercedes. I see also that Ford's Escape hybrid is being exhibited at the New York Auto Show.
And by the way, I wonder how the RL will manage torque steer with so much power, being a front-wheel drive. I think the new RL will be offered in AWD, too (I read it somewhere).
The RL costs in the mid-upper $40,000 range. The Avalon is not near that amount. I realize the RL is being heavily discounted, but that will end when the new model comes out. The RL and Avalon are priced too far apart to be competitors.
Besides, the RL still caters to a younger target than the Avalon. The Avalon buyer's average age has crept up in recent years and is now 61, placing the car on the top 10 list of cars with the oldest buyers.
It is worse than that. With the new recall announced yesterday, Honda now has five model years of cars with transmission problems (1999-2004 models). My MDX is part of the new recall. I don't know how that compares to the oil gelling problems Toyota and Mercedes have/had, but it does tend to shake one's confidence in reliability and quality reputations.
With a virtually all new car (2005 Avalon) coming, and taking into account problems formerly bullet proof reliability car companies are having, maybe, as part of the purchase decision, we should accept that there will be some problems and concentrate on which companies handle the problems best.
I'm not thrilled with silent recalls (If the customer complains loud enough, fix it. Otherwise do nothing.). My Avalon was subject to one that I know of. Toyota did do a lot of work on the car but did not tell me there was a fix for my complaint. I found the fix by looking at service bulletins.
Sorry about those problems. Too much trying to bring too many models out. Best advice is to never buy the first model year of any vehicle, and if you can wait out the second.
I am hoping Toyota just sticks the 3.3L in the new 2005 Avy, and does not debut a 3.5L like others on other forum talk about. Not a big deal anyway, as it has become overrated, pushing the prices up as well.
There was a memo to the TMMK staff regarding the imminent demise of the 3.0L engine, and the 3.5L has been confirmed for use in the "2006 Avalon". My guess, as others have stated here, is that there will be a short run of 2005 Avalons (kind of like how there was a short run of 2003 Siennas), with a February/March 2005 debut for the 2006 models. Also, the 5 speed auto will be the only transmission offered in the 2005 model Avalon. No word yet on how soon the 3.0L is being killed, ie... if it will linger for the abbreviated 2005 MY, or will be replaced by the 3.3L.
That 3.3L sure does seem to have been a stop-gap measure, though. Im wondering if all Camry variants will adopt this "new" 3.5L, or the timing of that. (Very little is known about the 3.5L- Not sure how new it is, if its just a bored-out 3.3L, much as the 3.3L is a bored-out 3.0, or a clean slate design.)
I doubt the 3.5 would be a second stop gap. With as much money and effort as Toyota is investing in this project, it is surely a new design. When was the last time the V6 got a full redesign anyway? 1997?
Much of what is being posted here follows my Toyota service writer's comments of some time ago: slightly larger engine (25 more hp), a 5 speed transmission, etc. The real question is: When do we get it? late '04 maybe? '05? Just hope they don't rush production and sacrifice quality for a faster delivery date. Of course, all "spy pics" are always welcome. When the new Av finally arrives, it will be interesting to again debate how the total package compares to a current model Acura TL and RL. That debate can be a topic unto itself......
Re-read my post. It states my opinion that the 3.3L, NOT the 3.5L, may be a stop-gap. The 3.0L (1MZ) engine debuted in 1991 as a 1992 in the Camry and ES300. It has been continually refined up to this point, to maximize efficiency, and lower emissions. Its top power/torque ratings were in the OLD RX300 (and HL) 220hp and 222 lb. ft. of torque. The 3.3L (3MZ) now used in Camry applications is a bored out version of the 3.0L. We do not yet know if the 3.5L is related to this family of engines, or if it is a clean sheet design.
Fin- I really do not feel the Avalon will be competing against the RL, a vehicle priced higher by about $10,000. The Avalons competitors will likely continue to be some of the non-performance oriented entry luxury models, as well as the Chrysler 300s, Ford Five Hundreds, Kia Amanitis, etc.
If the 05 Avalon gets the much anticipated 3.5 engine wouldn't the ES330 also get it? It's hard to imagine the Avalon outdoing the ES. So in that respect the ES330 was also a stop gap measure. Why didn't Toyota just go from 3.0L to 3.5L?
With all the talk about the new Avalon, is it still a given that it will be built in Kentucky? And that it will remain FWD?
I keep wondering if the (concept) Toyota Crown is really the Avalon replacement. Seems awfully strange that the Avy is slated to appear the same time as the new GS300 (350?), and that the Toyota web-site is even showing the Crown.
On the other hand, it's crossed my mind that Toyota could be going the way of the entry-level Lexi -- offering both a IS300/ES300 at the (roughly) same price point.
Does anyone think there could be a FWD Avalon sold alongside a RWD Crown?
Enquiring minds want to know ... (or just have too much time to think about about such things .. <g>)
To be clear, I think its pretty much accepted at this point that the NEW Avalon will debut with a 2006 model year designation. Not much is known about other Camry variants using the 3.5L engine, but I would imagine that the ES will get the engine too. The entire ES line is hardly a stop-gap. Who knows the reasons why Toyota didnt go from 3.0L to 3.5L directly? Im guessing it was for similar reasons that Ford can't debut its new models with the Duratec 35- timing, production, testing, and monetary constraints. Basically right now there is too little known to provide concrete answers of many of the questions being asked.
All we can say is Toyota has a 3.5L in the works, destined for use in the next Avalon and other Camry based platforms. Timing of the final production of the 3.0L is uncertain, though likely to occur BEFORE the 3.5L is mass produced.
cammer- The Avalon will be produced at TMMK. Powertrain employees were the ones who received the memo about the "2006 Camry and Avalon 3.5L V6". I feel the Crown is a doubtful candidate- its not a Camry based model, which the Avalon is.
Don't get your hopes up that the Avalon will be the Toyota Crown! That model is only on the Toyota website to showcase what they can do if they put their minds to it. The Toyota Crown is basically a Lexus GS/Toyota Aristo. Same platform, same transmission, same engines. The Avalon will be based on the Camry which uses a different V6 engine.
With projected new engines, will premium gas be recommended? With current gas prices, seems like a bad time to introduce a car that recommends premium. I know several TOL do recommend premium, but that would be major change for the Avalon. Also know that premium recommendation can be ignored, but Avalon owners do like to "follow the book" for at least a while.
The Toyota Crown was one of the first Toyota vehicles. It dates back to the beginning of Toyota Motor Corporation. It is just that the Crown has never been introduced into the North American market. This year marks the 12th generation of the Toyota Crown and is introduced into the US as a "concept" which is really the 12th redesign of the Toyota Crown. The Crown is also not really a variant of the GS. It might share some components but these two were intended for very different markets. The Crown is and always have been a Toyota flagship (in other parts of the world), it serves as a luxury sedan for one who wants a luxury car but not at a price of a premium sedan. On the other hand, the GS/Aristo is a luxury sport sedan that is very... sporty. lol. It does not have as much luxury features as the Crown is more sport-oriented. The new Crown is still going to serve as a luxury sedan with ammenities such a 7-inch colour display, a refridgerater, fold-down front seat (as a leg rest for the rear passenger) and such. It also has a softer suspension and is heavier in comparison to the new GS (more sluggish handling). And the new GS will continue is sport-oriented path and feature tighter suspension and a lighter body.
I hope the new Avalon gets its styling cues from the Crown. The Majesta looks beautiful, much better looking than any Toyota or Lexus cars sold here. I was wondering why they haven't thought about selling the Crown in North America
The Toyota "Flagship" vehicle in Japan is not the Crown but actually a vehicle called the Toyota Century. It has a V12 engine and looks very much like a stretched version of a Buick from the '80s. It has a price tag of over $100,000. Not that it matters much to the discussion, just thought you might like to know.
In case you wanted to see pictures here is a link to the Japanese toyota.com site that has them:
The wallpaper from that website is actually the previous generation Toyota Crown. The new Toyota Crown looks almost the same, just sleeker. IMO, the new Toyota Crown Athlete looks the best.
Solara00, the link on the US Toyota website to the Crown "concept" should not have anything to do with the new upcoming Avalon or any other Lexus models. The main point of my post was just to clarify that the Toyota Crown has been and always will be a completely separate Toyata vehicle from the Avalon and that it is NOT a "concept" as it is really the new generation of car that has been around for a long time. PS: and most of the time the local dealerships are the last to know of any company intelligence.
Kmcmi, what I meant was that the Toyota Crown has been a very significant vehicle in Toyota for a long time (it is one of the longest serving Toyota models, first appeared in 1955). The Century was actually introduced aprroximately 10 years after the first Toyota Crown before then, it was the Crown was the flagship by specifications and price. However, even after the Century was introduced, many still considered the Crowns as the flagship of Toyota because of the image of status it car was inteneded to portray. Which is why the Toyota Crown has been used for transportation and named as the offical car of Japan for Royals and important business leaders for so many years.
Thanks for the info. We've purchased 3 Toyotas from this dealership. Althought not liking the current Avalon body style, I was wanting to know if the salesman had any info on the next generation Avalon. I had sent in the link to the "greenish" Avalon that you can also find in these posts. He said the greenish Avalon is not the body style and that's when he directed me to the Crown Concept link. He said he was at a Toyota auto show in September and they told him that would be fairly close to what the 2005 Avalon would be.
Am I surprised that his info is probably bad? Not at all. So I guess we'll all just have to wait to see what rolls out.
I wonder if we will have more definite information by September or October?
You know, we really should create a Crown forum also. Since its such an important car for Toyota. Especially now that it might be coming into North America.
If the Crown is to be a Lexus, why is it shown in the TOYOTA website as a FUTURE vehicle?
If it's going to be a Lexus, it should be displayed in the Lexus Concept Vehicle, like the HPX 400.
Therefore, isn't it logical to assume that the Crown will eventually be in the Toyota line-up? If so, why would they need both the Crown and the Avalon? Or can we speculate that the Crown will replace the Avalon just like the Avalon replaced the Crest?
Or can we speculate that the Crown will replace the Avalon just like the Avalon replaced the Crest? - which replaced the Crown as Toyota's top of the line in the U. S. many years ago.
Sorry, couldn't resist. It would be nice if it had all of the latest safety and performance/economy goodies (like hybrid standard), but as long as it isn't ugly and provides the room and ride of the current model it will be a very nice car. Make it look good too and it will draw in more people to look and might increase Avalon sales at the expense of Lexus sales.
Toyota is just looking to drum up speculation and anticipation of the new Avalon by putting the Crown concept on the website. If so, it seems to be working!
Ive read so much conflicting information and sheer speculation on the next Avalon that Im not going to be surprised by ANYTHING that appears as the actual vehicle.
Now Im reading that the REDESIGNED Avalon may be available as soon as Nov/December, with the confirmed 3.5L V6.
Theres just not much concrete information available right now. Whatever, the case, purchase prices on the 2004s should be falling by end of summer.
I am amazed at the ability of Toyota to keep this information secret. If the Avalon comes out in December or even January, does that mean right now there is a test Avalon going around a track somewhere or is it now just a little model in a wind tunnel or a design in a computer? How long does it take to tool up the assembly line and robotics in a factory to produce a car? If it is being tested, does it get tested in Japan or here? How long is an actual vehicle tested before the announcement? It seems it easier to get info out of the Pentagon. Just fascinating to me.
I couldnt agree with you more. Theres a TMMK worker who posts at another website bulletin board, and he seems to fully believe the next Avalon is a FWD variant of the NEXT Lexus GS platform, and not the Camry. This blows my mind if its true. And if its not, I dont know why he would be claiming it. Allegedly, Toyota is going to offer all the full-scale luxo appointments on the next Avalon, ranging from backup camera to dynamic laser cruise. Said TMMK team member claims that 3 hand built next-gen Avalons were recently delivered from Japan, and that they are truly FLAGSHIP automobiles. Also claimed is that 270 hp is dead-on for the 3.5L.
Again, I just dont know how credible any of this stuff is.
If it true what you say about the Avalon Version 3.0, then how does Lexus differentiate itself from Toyota. The whole point of the Lexus Division, I believe, is to offer product refinement, a pleasant sales experience and unsurpassed service, all a premium price. I believe they call that prestige pricing.
If the same features and amenities are offered in the Avalon, then the Avalon would cannibalize Lexus's sales. So from a strategic marketing point of view the Avalon has to be a "lesser" car than a Lexus. And that lesser car I am afraid will be another dowdy design.
Look at the Toyota Sienna! It's a Toyota, and yet it has features normally reserved for Lexus: Gated Shifter, R/V Camera, NAV, DVD RES, Laser Cruise Control, Intuitive Parking w/both Front and Rear sensors, HID headlamps, Manual Sunshades for 2nd and 3rd row seats, Side-Curtain airbags for all 3 rows, 3-Zone Climate control, Powered liftgate, AWD, and Tire Pressure Monitor. So why not put these features on the Avalon in the form of the Crown Concept? Some people will still prefer the Lexus name badge. The current Avalon is already larger in size than the ES330. It's not going to compete with the GS since the GS is a sports sedan whereas the Avalon/Crown is near-luxury sedan. It's definitely not going to compete with the LS430.
The Solara and Sienna already have the Gated Shifter, normally associated with Lexus. The Avalon already has the nice huge chrome grille, normally associated with Lexus. And with Toyota putting the Crown Concept on their website means it's a possibility the next Toyota Flagship will be near-lexus.
Lenscap- I dont know how much this TMMK dude actually knows. Im just reporting what Ive read. I agree that being having a bi-drive (FWD and RWD) platform is very out of the ordinary, and Im not sure it can be done. (Though does anyone know why not?)
Actually, bwia, "If the same features and amenities are offered in the Avalon, then the Avalon would cannibalize Lexus's sales. So from a strategic marketing point of view the Avalon has to be a "lesser" car than a Lexus. And that lesser car I am afraid will be another dowdy design."
I disagree with this. Toyota's marketing strategy is not necessarily something that any of us on this board are privy to. Im not sure what they're thinking, but I am sure that if they do it- they're confident in their efforts. Even if they dont succeed- Toyota always seems to learn from their mistakes.
Example: Echo = sales and marketing mistake. Keep the chassis, engine, remarket with funky bodies, quirky styling, lots of room, low price. = Scion = sales success.
Im not concerned by what Toyotas doing, I just dont understand it at this point in time.
Ok, the Crown is not the next Avalon. That's what I believe, same with many others. It's on the Toyota website to showcase what they can do if they put their minds to it. I highly doubt it will come here as a Toyota in the US because the 2006 Lexus GS is built on the same platform, uses many of the same interior bits and pieces, same powertrain, and same suspension. That wouldn't really work out very well...
i've read many of the current LS430 reviews, and most of them had only one flaw. THE STYLING. Perhaps this would be the next LS as it certainly looks more sporty, and modern styling. When i looked at the thumbnail, i thought it was the IS300!
We have been given many clues now and in the past about how the next generation Avalon will look. A couple of Toyota dealership owners have said that the next gen Avalon looks like a Lexus(they have seen actual pictures of the car).
Now going back to the original Avalon, it too, looked liked a Lexus LS from the front and its body looked like that of a Lexus GS. Motor Trend showed a rear spied photo of the next gen Avalon, it had dual exhaust pipes like the Lexus LS/GS.
Toyota salesmen has been pointing to the Toyota Crown Concept as a possible look for the next gen Avalon. The Toyota Crown Concept has a Lexus LS body style look. So what point am I trying to make?
That the next gen Avalon will look similar to the Toyota Crown Concept/Lexus LS, it may not have similar quality interior materials like the Lexus LS, no V8 engine, it may not be built on the Lexus LS/GS platform, no Lexus like warranty, and you will not get the same level of service as you would get from a Lexus dealership.
I usually avoid this subjective stuff, but I got home a little early tonight... IMO, NO salesman has seen the new Avalon. They are salesmen! I have two friends who work with Toyota/Lexus at their Torrance headquarters. I grill them all the time for more info. Even they tell me "No." salesmen have NOT been shown the new models. Paraphrasing...Toyota policy does NOT circulate material that may end up reproduced and redistributed, especially on confidential product info. (ie: They don't want it to end up on the internet) It is easy to guess it will look like a Lexus/Camry/Crown. Enlarge a pic of a Corolla on your copier, it will look like a Lexus!
As for the Crown, it is NOT likely it is the new Avalon. They should be two separate vehicles. Toyo announced that they WILL continue the Avalon. They also anounced, at The Tokyo Motor Show, that the Crown will once again be "exported." They did NOT say which countries will get it, but we can cross our fingers.
Avalon performance??? IMO, very important, IMO!!! Don't count on an Acura TL fighter the Avy is Toyo's OldsmoBuick. It is not marketed to younger more aggressive drivers. Look to the Camry and TRD for that. ...and, maybe soon, the Crown????? This is all speculation and opinion, based on what we know. If I break my friends, I'll let y'all know. -nomad56-
>> It makes no sense to show people that the future TOYOTA will be a LEXUS. No, the next FUTURE TOYOTA will be a TOYOTA.
Like the current Camry had nothing to do with the Lexus ES (and inherited the 3.3 engine in certain models after it first showed in the Lexus 330), nor is the Highlander anything like the Lexus RX?
Toyota eats its young. The latest U.S. Scion is just the European market Aveo.
Comments
Two of the five speed cars above had V8 engines and nearly 300 hp. The current one has a 240 hp V6. The current car will, at freeway speeds, downshift on even small hills and cannot maintain freeway speeds in fifth gear against a strong head wind. Yet all three cars are/were quite peppy when driven aggressively.
The point I was trying to make is as cars get heavier a larger engine (within reason) can provide better high gear part throttle performance than a similar horsepower smaller displacement engine, with little or no loss in economy.
My experience has been that all else being similar the size of the engine does not have a big effect on mpg. At one time I had three cars that all gave essentially the same mpg. One had a V8, one a V6, and one a 4. Engine size went from 5.7L to 2L. All of the cars weighed within 100 pounds of each other. All had similar drag coefficients (close anyway). All had four speed automatic transmissions with locking torque converters. The bigger the engine the peppier the car was for part throttle high gear operation, yet mpg did not suffer because of the bigger engine. Yes, the big engine car was very fast at full throttle, but in my normal driving over 95%+ of the time it is part throttle driving
It is not the horsepower that determines how peppy a car is during part throttle high gear operation. It is torque and or final drive ratio. Normally the bigger the engine the more torque at lower rpm. This doesn't mean there aren't cars that already feel fine during high gear part throttle operation with a five speed transmission, just that many that don't would be with more displacement.
I like my Avalon, but it is getting up in years. When I look for a replacement I hope the new Avalon has at least as much performance in part throttle high gear operation as my 96 has now. I don't care if it has better full throttle performance, but if the new model gets heavier the added low rpm torque from a larger displacement engine should keep part throttle performance level, even with an extra gear or two.
Note: The only 'seemless' shifting cars I have driven are cars with essentially shiftless CVT transmissions (no abrupt rpm changes due to a gear change). Who knows, maybe the new Avalon will end up with one of these.
Still betting on a 270hp hybrid.
And by the way, I wonder how the RL will manage torque steer with so much power, being a front-wheel drive. I think the new RL will be offered in AWD, too (I read it somewhere).
But the Avalon will stay front-wheel, I guess.
~alpha
But are you going to buy our nice new 300hp RL or stick with that 210hp Toyota?
That will be what the Acura salespeople will say.
Besides, the RL still caters to a younger target than the Avalon. The Avalon buyer's average age has crept up in recent years and is now 61, placing the car on the top 10 list of cars with the oldest buyers.
Just heard that Acura is having trouble with most if not all its models with seals and oil leaks. Have at it, for 40K. No thanks.
abfisch
With a virtually all new car (2005 Avalon) coming, and taking into account problems formerly bullet proof reliability car companies are having, maybe, as part of the purchase decision, we should accept that there will be some problems and concentrate on which companies handle the problems best.
I'm not thrilled with silent recalls (If the customer complains loud enough, fix it. Otherwise do nothing.). My Avalon was subject to one that I know of. Toyota did do a lot of work on the car but did not tell me there was a fix for my complaint. I found the fix by looking at service bulletins.
Sorry about those problems. Too much trying to bring too many models out. Best advice is to never buy the first model year of any vehicle, and if you can wait out the second.
I am hoping Toyota just sticks the 3.3L in the new 2005 Avy, and does not debut a 3.5L like others on other forum talk about. Not a big deal anyway, as it has become overrated, pushing the prices up as well.
How things work out.
abfisch
That 3.3L sure does seem to have been a stop-gap measure, though. Im wondering if all Camry variants will adopt this "new" 3.5L, or the timing of that. (Very little is known about the 3.5L- Not sure how new it is, if its just a bored-out 3.3L, much as the 3.3L is a bored-out 3.0, or a clean slate design.)
~alpha
When the new Av finally arrives, it will be interesting to again debate how the total package compares to a current model Acura TL and RL. That debate can be a topic unto itself......
Fin- I really do not feel the Avalon will be competing against the RL, a vehicle priced higher by about $10,000. The Avalons competitors will likely continue to be some of the non-performance oriented entry luxury models, as well as the Chrysler 300s, Ford Five Hundreds, Kia Amanitis, etc.
~alpha
I keep wondering if the (concept) Toyota Crown is really the Avalon replacement. Seems awfully strange that the Avy is slated to appear the same time as the new GS300 (350?), and that the Toyota web-site is even showing the Crown.
On the other hand, it's crossed my mind that Toyota could be going the way of the entry-level Lexi -- offering both a IS300/ES300 at the (roughly) same price point.
Does anyone think there could be a FWD Avalon sold alongside a RWD Crown?
Enquiring minds want to know ... (or just have too much time to think about about such things .. <g>)
All we can say is Toyota has a 3.5L in the works, destined for use in the next Avalon and other Camry based platforms. Timing of the final production of the 3.0L is uncertain, though likely to occur BEFORE the 3.5L is mass produced.
cammer- The Avalon will be produced at TMMK. Powertrain employees were the ones who received the memo about the "2006 Camry and Avalon 3.5L V6". I feel the Crown is a doubtful candidate- its not a Camry based model, which the Avalon is.
~alpha
The Toyota Crown was one of the first Toyota vehicles. It dates back to the beginning of Toyota Motor Corporation. It is just that the Crown has never been introduced into the North American market. This year marks the 12th generation of the Toyota Crown and is introduced into the US as a "concept" which is really the 12th redesign of the Toyota Crown. The Crown is also not really a variant of the GS. It might share some components but these two were intended for very different markets. The Crown is and always have been a Toyota flagship (in other parts of the world), it serves as a luxury sedan for one who wants a luxury car but not at a price of a premium sedan. On the other hand, the GS/Aristo is a luxury sport sedan that is very... sporty. lol. It does not have as much luxury features as the Crown is more sport-oriented. The new Crown is still going to serve as a luxury sedan with ammenities such a 7-inch colour display, a refridgerater, fold-down front seat (as a leg rest for the rear passenger) and such. It also has a softer suspension and is heavier in comparison to the new GS (more sluggish handling). And the new GS will continue is sport-oriented path and feature tighter suspension and a lighter body.
http://speedycars.net/wallpaper/toyota_crown.html
Or will is that "Concept Car" more an addition to the LEXUS line?
If this is the new Avalon, what should we expect the high-end price range to be?
Thanks.........
~alpha
In case you wanted to see pictures here is a link to the Japanese toyota.com site that has them:
http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Century/menu/f- - - rame/exterior.- html
interior shots:
http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Century/menu/f- rame/interior.- html
And yes, it is a 2004 model year.
They gave me that link to the Crown Concept saying they were told last September that this would be the 2005/2006 Avalon.
Wonder why they would do that?
PS: and most of the time the local dealerships are the last to know of any company intelligence.
Kmcmi, what I meant was that the Toyota Crown has been a very significant vehicle in Toyota for a long time (it is one of the longest serving Toyota models, first appeared in 1955). The Century was actually introduced aprroximately 10 years after the first Toyota Crown before then, it was the Crown was the flagship by specifications and price. However, even after the Century was introduced, many still considered the Crowns as the flagship of Toyota because of the image of status it car was inteneded to portray. Which is why the Toyota Crown has been used for transportation and named as the offical car of Japan for Royals and important business leaders for so many years.
Am I surprised that his info is probably bad? Not at all. So I guess we'll all just have to wait to see what rolls out.
I wonder if we will have more definite information by September or October?
If it's going to be a Lexus, it should be displayed in the Lexus Concept Vehicle, like the HPX 400.
Therefore, isn't it logical to assume that the Crown will eventually be in the Toyota line-up?
If so, why would they need both the Crown and the Avalon?
Or can we speculate that the Crown will replace the Avalon just like the Avalon replaced the Crest?
Sorry, couldn't resist. It would be nice if it had all of the latest safety and performance/economy goodies (like hybrid standard), but as long as it isn't ugly and provides the room and ride of the current model it will be a very nice car. Make it look good too and it will draw in more people to look and might increase Avalon sales at the expense of Lexus sales.
Hmmm, I guess what comes around goes around.
But why do you suppose Toyota has the Crown Concept on their website?
Surely not to say that it will be the next LEXUS!
Ive read so much conflicting information and sheer speculation on the next Avalon that Im not going to be surprised by ANYTHING that appears as the actual vehicle.
Now Im reading that the REDESIGNED Avalon may be available as soon as Nov/December, with the confirmed 3.5L V6.
Theres just not much concrete information available right now. Whatever, the case, purchase prices on the 2004s should be falling by end of summer.
~alpha
Again, I just dont know how credible any of this stuff is.
All very mind-boggling.
~alpha
If it true what you say about the Avalon Version 3.0, then how does Lexus differentiate itself from Toyota. The whole point of the Lexus Division, I believe, is to offer product refinement, a pleasant sales experience and unsurpassed service, all a premium price. I believe they call that prestige pricing.
If the same features and amenities are offered in the Avalon, then the Avalon would cannibalize Lexus's sales. So from a strategic marketing point of view the Avalon has to be a "lesser" car than a Lexus. And that lesser car I am afraid will be another dowdy design.
It's a Toyota, and yet it has features normally reserved for Lexus:
Gated Shifter, R/V Camera, NAV, DVD RES, Laser Cruise Control, Intuitive Parking w/both Front and Rear sensors, HID headlamps, Manual Sunshades for 2nd and 3rd row seats, Side-Curtain airbags for all 3 rows, 3-Zone Climate control, Powered liftgate, AWD, and Tire Pressure Monitor.
So why not put these features on the Avalon in the form of the Crown Concept?
Some people will still prefer the Lexus name badge. The current Avalon is already larger in size than the ES330. It's not going to compete with the GS since the GS is a sports sedan whereas the Avalon/Crown is near-luxury sedan. It's definitely not going to compete with the LS430.
The Solara and Sienna already have the Gated Shifter, normally associated with Lexus.
The Avalon already has the nice huge chrome grille, normally associated with Lexus.
And with Toyota putting the Crown Concept on their website means it's a possibility the next Toyota Flagship will be near-lexus.
http://www.autoweek.com/specials/2003_tokyo/toyota/crown_concept/- - pages/1.htm
However, the dimensions look the same as the Camry and in my opinion does NOT "look" like a flagship sedan, or am I missing something?
I may be wrong, but I don't believe you can have a FWD variant of a RWD platform. They are completely different.
Actually, bwia, "If the same features and amenities are offered in the Avalon, then the Avalon would cannibalize Lexus's sales. So from a strategic marketing point of view the Avalon has to be a "lesser" car than a Lexus. And that lesser car I am afraid will be another dowdy design."
I disagree with this. Toyota's marketing strategy is not necessarily something that any of us on this board are privy to. Im not sure what they're thinking, but I am sure that if they do it- they're confident in their efforts. Even if they dont succeed- Toyota always seems to learn from their mistakes.
Example: Echo = sales and marketing mistake. Keep the chassis, engine, remarket with funky bodies, quirky styling, lots of room, low price. = Scion = sales success.
Im not concerned by what Toyotas doing, I just dont understand it at this point in time.
~alpha
Now going back to the original Avalon, it too, looked liked a Lexus LS from the front and its body looked like that of a Lexus GS. Motor Trend showed a rear spied photo of the next gen Avalon, it had dual exhaust pipes like the Lexus LS/GS.
Toyota salesmen has been pointing to the Toyota Crown Concept as a possible look for the next gen Avalon. The Toyota Crown Concept has a Lexus LS body style look. So what point am I trying to make?
That the next gen Avalon will look similar to the Toyota Crown Concept/Lexus LS, it may not have similar quality interior materials like the Lexus LS, no V8 engine, it may not be built on the Lexus LS/GS platform, no Lexus like warranty, and you will not get the same level of service as you would get from a Lexus dealership.
That's why it's on the Toyota website as a future car.
It makes no sense to show people that the future TOYOTA will be a LEXUS.
No, the next FUTURE TOYOTA will be a TOYOTA.
As for the Crown, it is NOT likely it is the new Avalon. They should be two separate vehicles. Toyo announced that they WILL continue the Avalon. They also anounced, at The Tokyo Motor Show, that the Crown will once again be "exported." They did NOT say which countries will get it, but we can cross our fingers.
Avalon performance??? IMO, very important, IMO!!! Don't count on an Acura TL fighter the Avy is Toyo's OldsmoBuick. It is not marketed to younger more aggressive drivers. Look to the Camry and TRD for that. ...and, maybe soon, the Crown????? This is all speculation and opinion, based on what we know. If I break my friends, I'll let y'all know. -nomad56-
No, the next FUTURE TOYOTA will be a TOYOTA.
Like the current Camry had nothing to do with the Lexus ES (and inherited the 3.3 engine in certain models after it first showed in the Lexus 330), nor is the Highlander anything like the Lexus RX?
Toyota eats its young. The latest U.S. Scion is just the European market Aveo.