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Comments
Two of the five speed cars above had V8 engines and nearly 300 hp. The current one has a 240 hp V6. The current car will, at freeway speeds, downshift on even small hills and cannot maintain freeway speeds in fifth gear against a strong head wind. Yet all three cars are/were quite peppy when driven aggressively.
The point I was trying to make is as cars get heavier a larger engine (within reason) can provide better high gear part throttle performance than a similar horsepower smaller displacement engine, with little or no loss in economy.
My experience has been that all else being similar the size of the engine does not have a big effect on mpg. At one time I had three cars that all gave essentially the same mpg. One had a V8, one a V6, and one a 4. Engine size went from 5.7L to 2L. All of the cars weighed within 100 pounds of each other. All had similar drag coefficients (close anyway). All had four speed automatic transmissions with locking torque converters. The bigger the engine the peppier the car was for part throttle high gear operation, yet mpg did not suffer because of the bigger engine. Yes, the big engine car was very fast at full throttle, but in my normal driving over 95%+ of the time it is part throttle driving
It is not the horsepower that determines how peppy a car is during part throttle high gear operation. It is torque and or final drive ratio. Normally the bigger the engine the more torque at lower rpm. This doesn't mean there aren't cars that already feel fine during high gear part throttle operation with a five speed transmission, just that many that don't would be with more displacement.
I like my Avalon, but it is getting up in years. When I look for a replacement I hope the new Avalon has at least as much performance in part throttle high gear operation as my 96 has now. I don't care if it has better full throttle performance, but if the new model gets heavier the added low rpm torque from a larger displacement engine should keep part throttle performance level, even with an extra gear or two.
Note: The only 'seemless' shifting cars I have driven are cars with essentially shiftless CVT transmissions (no abrupt rpm changes due to a gear change). Who knows, maybe the new Avalon will end up with one of these.
Still betting on a 270hp hybrid.
And by the way, I wonder how the RL will manage torque steer with so much power, being a front-wheel drive. I think the new RL will be offered in AWD, too (I read it somewhere).
But the Avalon will stay front-wheel, I guess.
~alpha
But are you going to buy our nice new 300hp RL or stick with that 210hp Toyota?
That will be what the Acura salespeople will say.
Besides, the RL still caters to a younger target than the Avalon. The Avalon buyer's average age has crept up in recent years and is now 61, placing the car on the top 10 list of cars with the oldest buyers.
Just heard that Acura is having trouble with most if not all its models with seals and oil leaks. Have at it, for 40K. No thanks.
abfisch
With a virtually all new car (2005 Avalon) coming, and taking into account problems formerly bullet proof reliability car companies are having, maybe, as part of the purchase decision, we should accept that there will be some problems and concentrate on which companies handle the problems best.
I'm not thrilled with silent recalls (If the customer complains loud enough, fix it. Otherwise do nothing.). My Avalon was subject to one that I know of. Toyota did do a lot of work on the car but did not tell me there was a fix for my complaint. I found the fix by looking at service bulletins.
Sorry about those problems. Too much trying to bring too many models out. Best advice is to never buy the first model year of any vehicle, and if you can wait out the second.
I am hoping Toyota just sticks the 3.3L in the new 2005 Avy, and does not debut a 3.5L like others on other forum talk about. Not a big deal anyway, as it has become overrated, pushing the prices up as well.
How things work out.
abfisch
That 3.3L sure does seem to have been a stop-gap measure, though. Im wondering if all Camry variants will adopt this "new" 3.5L, or the timing of that. (Very little is known about the 3.5L- Not sure how new it is, if its just a bored-out 3.3L, much as the 3.3L is a bored-out 3.0, or a clean slate design.)
~alpha
When the new Av finally arrives, it will be interesting to again debate how the total package compares to a current model Acura TL and RL. That debate can be a topic unto itself......
Fin- I really do not feel the Avalon will be competing against the RL, a vehicle priced higher by about $10,000. The Avalons competitors will likely continue to be some of the non-performance oriented entry luxury models, as well as the Chrysler 300s, Ford Five Hundreds, Kia Amanitis, etc.
~alpha
I keep wondering if the (concept) Toyota Crown is really the Avalon replacement. Seems awfully strange that the Avy is slated to appear the same time as the new GS300 (350?), and that the Toyota web-site is even showing the Crown.
On the other hand, it's crossed my mind that Toyota could be going the way of the entry-level Lexi -- offering both a IS300/ES300 at the (roughly) same price point.
Does anyone think there could be a FWD Avalon sold alongside a RWD Crown?
Enquiring minds want to know ... (or just have too much time to think about about such things .. <g>)
All we can say is Toyota has a 3.5L in the works, destined for use in the next Avalon and other Camry based platforms. Timing of the final production of the 3.0L is uncertain, though likely to occur BEFORE the 3.5L is mass produced.
cammer- The Avalon will be produced at TMMK. Powertrain employees were the ones who received the memo about the "2006 Camry and Avalon 3.5L V6". I feel the Crown is a doubtful candidate- its not a Camry based model, which the Avalon is.
~alpha
The Toyota Crown was one of the first Toyota vehicles. It dates back to the beginning of Toyota Motor Corporation. It is just that the Crown has never been introduced into the North American market. This year marks the 12th generation of the Toyota Crown and is introduced into the US as a "concept" which is really the 12th redesign of the Toyota Crown. The Crown is also not really a variant of the GS. It might share some components but these two were intended for very different markets. The Crown is and always have been a Toyota flagship (in other parts of the world), it serves as a luxury sedan for one who wants a luxury car but not at a price of a premium sedan. On the other hand, the GS/Aristo is a luxury sport sedan that is very... sporty. lol. It does not have as much luxury features as the Crown is more sport-oriented. The new Crown is still going to serve as a luxury sedan with ammenities such a 7-inch colour display, a refridgerater, fold-down front seat (as a leg rest for the rear passenger) and such. It also has a softer suspension and is heavier in comparison to the new GS (more sluggish handling). And the new GS will continue is sport-oriented path and feature tighter suspension and a lighter body.
http://speedycars.net/wallpaper/toyota_crown.html
Or will is that "Concept Car" more an addition to the LEXUS line?
If this is the new Avalon, what should we expect the high-end price range to be?
Thanks.........
~alpha
In case you wanted to see pictures here is a link to the Japanese toyota.com site that has them:
http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Century/menu/f- - - rame/exterior.- html
interior shots:
http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Century/menu/f- rame/interior.- html
And yes, it is a 2004 model year.
They gave me that link to the Crown Concept saying they were told last September that this would be the 2005/2006 Avalon.
Wonder why they would do that?
PS: and most of the time the local dealerships are the last to know of any company intelligence.
Kmcmi, what I meant was that the Toyota Crown has been a very significant vehicle in Toyota for a long time (it is one of the longest serving Toyota models, first appeared in 1955). The Century was actually introduced aprroximately 10 years after the first Toyota Crown before then, it was the Crown was the flagship by specifications and price. However, even after the Century was introduced, many still considered the Crowns as the flagship of Toyota because of the image of status it car was inteneded to portray. Which is why the Toyota Crown has been used for transportation and named as the offical car of Japan for Royals and important business leaders for so many years.
Am I surprised that his info is probably bad? Not at all. So I guess we'll all just have to wait to see what rolls out.
I wonder if we will have more definite information by September or October?
If it's going to be a Lexus, it should be displayed in the Lexus Concept Vehicle, like the HPX 400.
Therefore, isn't it logical to assume that the Crown will eventually be in the Toyota line-up?
If so, why would they need both the Crown and the Avalon?
Or can we speculate that the Crown will replace the Avalon just like the Avalon replaced the Crest?
Sorry, couldn't resist. It would be nice if it had all of the latest safety and performance/economy goodies (like hybrid standard), but as long as it isn't ugly and provides the room and ride of the current model it will be a very nice car. Make it look good too and it will draw in more people to look and might increase Avalon sales at the expense of Lexus sales.
Hmmm, I guess what comes around goes around.
But why do you suppose Toyota has the Crown Concept on their website?
Surely not to say that it will be the next LEXUS!
Ive read so much conflicting information and sheer speculation on the next Avalon that Im not going to be surprised by ANYTHING that appears as the actual vehicle.
Now Im reading that the REDESIGNED Avalon may be available as soon as Nov/December, with the confirmed 3.5L V6.
Theres just not much concrete information available right now. Whatever, the case, purchase prices on the 2004s should be falling by end of summer.
~alpha
Again, I just dont know how credible any of this stuff is.
All very mind-boggling.
~alpha
If it true what you say about the Avalon Version 3.0, then how does Lexus differentiate itself from Toyota. The whole point of the Lexus Division, I believe, is to offer product refinement, a pleasant sales experience and unsurpassed service, all a premium price. I believe they call that prestige pricing.
If the same features and amenities are offered in the Avalon, then the Avalon would cannibalize Lexus's sales. So from a strategic marketing point of view the Avalon has to be a "lesser" car than a Lexus. And that lesser car I am afraid will be another dowdy design.
It's a Toyota, and yet it has features normally reserved for Lexus:
Gated Shifter, R/V Camera, NAV, DVD RES, Laser Cruise Control, Intuitive Parking w/both Front and Rear sensors, HID headlamps, Manual Sunshades for 2nd and 3rd row seats, Side-Curtain airbags for all 3 rows, 3-Zone Climate control, Powered liftgate, AWD, and Tire Pressure Monitor.
So why not put these features on the Avalon in the form of the Crown Concept?
Some people will still prefer the Lexus name badge. The current Avalon is already larger in size than the ES330. It's not going to compete with the GS since the GS is a sports sedan whereas the Avalon/Crown is near-luxury sedan. It's definitely not going to compete with the LS430.
The Solara and Sienna already have the Gated Shifter, normally associated with Lexus.
The Avalon already has the nice huge chrome grille, normally associated with Lexus.
And with Toyota putting the Crown Concept on their website means it's a possibility the next Toyota Flagship will be near-lexus.
http://www.autoweek.com/specials/2003_tokyo/toyota/crown_concept/- - pages/1.htm
However, the dimensions look the same as the Camry and in my opinion does NOT "look" like a flagship sedan, or am I missing something?
I may be wrong, but I don't believe you can have a FWD variant of a RWD platform. They are completely different.
Actually, bwia, "If the same features and amenities are offered in the Avalon, then the Avalon would cannibalize Lexus's sales. So from a strategic marketing point of view the Avalon has to be a "lesser" car than a Lexus. And that lesser car I am afraid will be another dowdy design."
I disagree with this. Toyota's marketing strategy is not necessarily something that any of us on this board are privy to. Im not sure what they're thinking, but I am sure that if they do it- they're confident in their efforts. Even if they dont succeed- Toyota always seems to learn from their mistakes.
Example: Echo = sales and marketing mistake. Keep the chassis, engine, remarket with funky bodies, quirky styling, lots of room, low price. = Scion = sales success.
Im not concerned by what Toyotas doing, I just dont understand it at this point in time.
~alpha
Now going back to the original Avalon, it too, looked liked a Lexus LS from the front and its body looked like that of a Lexus GS. Motor Trend showed a rear spied photo of the next gen Avalon, it had dual exhaust pipes like the Lexus LS/GS.
Toyota salesmen has been pointing to the Toyota Crown Concept as a possible look for the next gen Avalon. The Toyota Crown Concept has a Lexus LS body style look. So what point am I trying to make?
That the next gen Avalon will look similar to the Toyota Crown Concept/Lexus LS, it may not have similar quality interior materials like the Lexus LS, no V8 engine, it may not be built on the Lexus LS/GS platform, no Lexus like warranty, and you will not get the same level of service as you would get from a Lexus dealership.
That's why it's on the Toyota website as a future car.
It makes no sense to show people that the future TOYOTA will be a LEXUS.
No, the next FUTURE TOYOTA will be a TOYOTA.
As for the Crown, it is NOT likely it is the new Avalon. They should be two separate vehicles. Toyo announced that they WILL continue the Avalon. They also anounced, at The Tokyo Motor Show, that the Crown will once again be "exported." They did NOT say which countries will get it, but we can cross our fingers.
Avalon performance??? IMO, very important, IMO!!! Don't count on an Acura TL fighter the Avy is Toyo's OldsmoBuick. It is not marketed to younger more aggressive drivers. Look to the Camry and TRD for that. ...and, maybe soon, the Crown????? This is all speculation and opinion, based on what we know. If I break my friends, I'll let y'all know. -nomad56-
No, the next FUTURE TOYOTA will be a TOYOTA.
Like the current Camry had nothing to do with the Lexus ES (and inherited the 3.3 engine in certain models after it first showed in the Lexus 330), nor is the Highlander anything like the Lexus RX?
Toyota eats its young. The latest U.S. Scion is just the European market Aveo.