chrisbotj - again if you would like to post some credible information in your assertions about the G35 please feel free. I would like to debate them with you vis-a-vis the Acura TL '04.
Go to the 'G35 Owners: Problems & Solutions' board and type in the word "brake" in the 'Search This Discussion' field. Of the 886 postings, 200 of them deal with the G's horrendous brake wear problem.
Now, go to the 'Acura TL Owners: Problems & Solutions' board. Oh...what's that you say? There are only two postings. How many deal with brakes...none?!
look up how many transmission are blown. I've heard the problem affected up to a million cars up to 2002. THe brakes are now being warranted and canada and we all expect the same warantee in the us. This problem has been isolated to a few early cars. Mine is in shop now with 15k miles and i just got word mine are fine. If that kind of argument is your rested case then you forgot to keep reading. All cars have these forums and they can be used to overblow any problems as the forum exists for people to comlain about problems.
THIS CAR DIDN'T WIN THE TQA award this year from being any worse than every other lux car makers out there. INfiniti is #1 maker per JD power for extended ownership and #2 or 3 in initial quality. Over caddy, the falling BMW and Audi and over acura.
I rest my case. for a first year car, not bad at all - especially with Infiniti standing behind them.
Does not help with individual ownership. As I recall BMW is still tops Infiniti in the Initial Quality Survey. The tranny thing is of the past. Honda has long since rectified the issues although they are covering trannies for an extended period of time. Infiniti has not rectified the brake issue.
Get real dude. Do you just make up this stuff as you go. JD power IS the leader in market research and all manufacturers live by thier rating. I don't need help with my individual ownership if i buy a car that wins TQA and #1 in extended ownership (this one is the one that really matters).
Infiniti will have rectified the brake issue by year end...and again it's an issue for a couple thousand early owners.
If you need help in your ownership experience the Luxus and Infiniti nameplates offer the most trouble free experience in many opinions including JD power. You dont think BMW offers a trouble free experience do you? Not even close
"Yu dont think BMW offers a trouble free experience do you? Not even close."
I don't think Infiniti does either. But my BMW has been serviced twice in 1 year and 6 months and been to the dealer twice. How many times has your G35 been serviced or to the dealer in the same period? Seems a trouble free experience to me.
Think those two hundred posts on the Edmunds forum is speaking about a trouble free ownership experience? Not even close. JD Power may be your first line of reference when you buy a car, but not one, I repeat none of the people I know even look at JD Power before they buy a car. Know why? They understand if they get a lemon JD Power won't buy it back from them.
Happens all the time for some reason when the G35 is mentioned in the comparison. Both great cars, as well as the TL, that the majority of people driving would love to have.
All seem to have their benefits and drawbacks. Depending on the criteria, one will be superior to the other. If the criteria changes, so does the superiority of one vs. the other. :-)
There are several posts on the Accord boad "Problems" regarding transmission issues, even on the 03's. Not as many as the 02 - 03 TLS by any chance, but there are there. I'm not so ready to say that problem is solved.
Also, you'll see brake issues mentioned frequently as well, and someone else has already mentioned the same issue with the TSX, just as the G35.
Handling arguments aside, these cars are very similar in that they offer tons of peformance for a little less cash than a true lux car. People blow up the brake issue as a reason to not buy a G and this is absurd as is the CR thing where someone claims that they shouldn't risk peoples lives in a G...it's absurd propoganda to invite negative comments about your car manufacturer's competitor's. Just too much BS to let it slide. The track would be the only place to resolve these issues of mine is bigger than yours...
I'm still laughing at the 85% of a 3 series comment in the same sentence as the comment that the G wins many comparos...
One more time...unless you bought one of the first few thousand G's, you should expect flawless performance that exceeds the 3 and equals the TL. And even those first few are being corrected.
To answer KD my car is in shop for 2x in 15000 and no problems. Brakes are fine as is all else - just as i expected it...I honestly based on opinions from family and freinds and reviews would not expect that from any german car...othewise i'd be an A6 driver right now.
chris - great to know Infiniti now has oil changes every 15K miles. Unless you did the work yourself your Infiniti needed maintenance every few thousand miles. Shop or not it needs maintenance. Glad to know your ownership experience is much better than a lot of owners who are complaining on the other boards and people who complain their service visits are every few days.
However, this is not the G35 vs 330i forum. Maybe you should scan that thread to see the commentary on the reviews and why G35 advocates were unhappy with a lot of the results and rightfully so as the reviews indicated, the car has some weaknesses that take it out of the running as a top-flight sports sedan.
I just re-read the comparo that R&T had last year. Yes, the G35 came out on top but if one were to look at the details, one would notice that their final rankings were comprised of:
The G35 did well in the first two categories, but did not win these outright, and cleaned house in the price category. This made it the easy winner.
What I find more interesting is that this breakdown allows an individual to adjust the weights of this comparison for their own tastes (ie, if price is not as important of a factor then the rankings change quickly).
The writers conceded that 'for the price, the G35 wins hands-down'. However, they also mentioned that if the 330i wasn't so expensive it would have won.
The TL has been notorious for tranny problems, and I am sure even you would consider that a bigger problem than brake wear. Most publications have called the G35's brakes 'race car brakes' and the wear issue has been resolved. Acura's tranny problems? Well I am not so sure that has been fixed. I myself own a 2003 Accord and am now going to get an extended warranty.
In general, I would say that Nissans/Infinitis are as reliable as Hondas/Acuras, if not more, so reliability shouldn't be an issue.
My wife owns a 2000 Altima with 66k miles, and till date I have had zero problems with the car, just keep changing oil at recommended periods. Pretty bulletproof.
If you had looked at the TL problems/solutions board, you would not have brought the G35 issue up, I can assure you of that. If you don't believe me, check it out, and infact check the Odyssey/TL/Accord boards which refer to the tranny problem
You are denying the G it's place at the top of the sedan heap why? Some isolated brake issues are a weakness? We haven't even started on all the issues 3ers have on thier boards.
And where did you miss 2 times in 15k miles (thats what 2x means)
Look as much as you have tried this with me before over the last nine months - you cannot convince me that the G is not the top or shares the top of the heap. One 2nd place review and some issues that get drilled over and over by the same folks on a maintenance forum is not a reason to call it shy of anything. I say it wins on the track and you say it loses in the forum of complaints?? The G has turned this market on it's ear for a reason. And turned infiniti into a powerful player once again...all with a brake issue and everything.
I've actually been trying to get to a track with my 330i bud and he cant seem to get his car out of the shop..he made some posts on bmwowner forums...maybe this is the start of BMW falling down...chat rooms are everything right?? right.
Show me weakness and I'll show you how it won't stack up when the track numbers clearly show the G shines or beat the competition. SHOW ME THE MONEY KD...support your claim.
It doesn't matter what "money" he shows you, he's not going to convince you. Just like you are not going to convince him. You each have your own differing opinions and you each are entitled to hold them.
Why don't you two agree to disagree, and then let's remember that the subject is the TL vs. the G35 and leave the 3-Series out of the conversation.
Yes, the tranny problems with the Acura have been resolved for a while now. The problems were limited to a small production run linked to a supplier that Acura is no longer using. Just to make sure, Acura has extended the drive-train warranties on all TLs manufactured during that time period and beyond. I've had my TL for 4 years and never experienced any tranny problems. Furthermore, during those 4 years I've only had my brakes serviced twice, and one of those times involved machining the rotors...not replacing them.
The G35 quality issues don't end with the brakes. Of all the recall notices received (or perhaps not received) by G35 owners, this one's my favorite:
'03 Infiniti G35
Problem: Improperly attached fuel hose could become disconnected when engine is started or car is driven, resulting in engine failure and risk of crash. Also, if hose loosens, fuel could spill and pose fire hazard.
Models: 18,300 cars made 1/02 to 7/02.
What to do: Have dealer inspect and, if necessary, properly attach fuel hose to fuel pump.
Let me just clarify my point with regard to the Saab and TSX vs. G35. I am specifically NOT claiming tha any of these cars is superior to the G35. I really couldn't care less if the G35 handles better or accelerates quicker than the TSX (which I own). I personally think it is silly to get into those kind of dicussions.
My only point was the claim that the RWD is inherently superior to FWD is not supported by the data. Some reasonably trustworthy sources rank similarly priced (and sometimes cheaper) FWD cars superior to the G35. And, those sources are testing the cars at more extreme limits than any of us ever will. Moreover, both sources offer up some hard objective data in support (times through slalom courses, skidpad, etc).
So, my point remains, a FWD car can be very sporty and can compete well with RWD cars and even exceed RWD cars in some categories. Those of you who argue that the G35 will definitely be more sporty than the TL because the G35 is RWD are buying into a urban myth. RWD is not always better. Both sorts of setups offer advantages in daily driving.
Now, if we want to talk racetrack performance, or drivetrains with lots of power (where torque steer becomes a very significant issue) that is different.
Unrelated point: On the question of reliablity - I realize that the G35 has had some problems in its first year, and the TL will likely have some problems as well. But, both cars should be quite reliable at the end of the day. I am a longtime Honda/Acura owner and even I don't believe that Acura products are any more reliable than Infiniti. The data (from CR and other sources) don't really support that conclusion.
ever for every manufacturer of a sprts sedan and i can find just as scary a problem for any car. Check the 3 when it first came out. And that limited acura problems was for 750,000 cars i was told. 4 years worth of production.
THere are problems the manufacturer figures out after the car is released and then goes back to correct on any new model...no one ever had a fire in G from lack of this TSB. There is also one for brake lights not working, you missed that? If they get it figured out before there is a problem in the real world then they did the right thing even though ther TSB can be turned around against them by people who buy cars based on how many TSB's there are. Look at BMW's release of the new 3 160 something tsb's and the reuslts can be the worst possible scenario.
You guys better find something better to sling mud a G with. TSB's that FIX possible problems before they occur is what we lux owners want. There are expected to be a few up front.
uncledavid - Infiniti had no choice but to put RWD into the G35 because they can't figure out how to make a superior FWD car without having the steering wheel wrenched from your hands.
chris - it's really okay that you are passionate about the G35. It is a nice car. It's just not at the top of the heap. Post links to some comparos where the G35 wins on merits of a sports sedan and not on value.
"My only point was the claim that the RWD is inherently superior to FWD...."
Again find one comparo where a FWD vehicle wins in the sports sedan segment to a RWD vehicle. RWD is better if the car is engineered properly if you want to drive a sports sedan. We seem to be going round in circles. RWD is not better is you are looking for cars in general. But if you want a sports sedan and are very serious about sports sedans then you have to get a decently balanced car with RWD.
Chrisboth, there are going to be issues with any new model, including service bulletins and recalls. The point with Infiniti, however, is that company has shown an eagerness to make the ownership experience a positive one. Infiniti is willing to go the extra yard to address any problems. That is a lot more than I can say for Acura.
Kahunah - I test drove the Maxima SE. The wheel felt like it was going to jump out of my hand everytime I accelerated!
You are so misinformed, it's not funny. The four years worth of production is what warranties were extended, not affected with the tranny problem. And no, I didn't miss the brake light problem. I just chose my favorite G35 recall. Personally, I don't think I'd buy a car that had the potential to not stop properly or burst into flames.
I already gave you two comparos, you just choose to ignore them because they don't support your arguments.
CR tested the Saab 9-3 and Infiniti G35 head-to-head and concluded the 9-3 handled better.
AUTOMOBILE tested 10 sports sedans head-to-head. They rated the TSX at the top of the heap, above several RWD cars (including the G35, IS300, and BWM 325i). They also rated the Mazda M6 in the top half as well, above many RWD cars.
In both reviews, it was not simply a case of one car being "liked" more than the others because of features like interior quality. In fact, the FWD cars out performed the G35 on more objective measures.
There are plenty of excellent sports sedans out there that have FWD.
We don't have the data yet, but I'm willing to be the TL will emerge the victor when there are head-to-head comparisons.
Did Automobile give the TSX the nod because it outperformed the G35 in the slalom, or was faster to 60. Or did it give it the nod because it had a nicer interior. I'm all for the TSX winning on merit, but don't throw in value, leather, radio, dealer treatment and then say the TSX wins.
What were the objective facts the brought the TSX above the G35. In the case of the 3 vs the G35 the 3 with the smaller engine kept pace with the G with the larger engine. The G won some the 3 won some, but the G won on value. That is not winning in my book. I would have to believe the same for the TSX.
the quote from the saab beating the G in handling...was that handling around the school zone or the twisties. It's not from a sports sedan performance comparo.
And since these G's dont even have brakes and go into flames are every fill up we should all be wary of going to the gas station....dont hang on to those threads of hope for an argument that might convince a smart comsumer the G is tragedy waiting to happen..it aint flying. You and KD should join the DNC to spin Arnold out of office. Take anything out of context and it can make anything seem bad...lets see for you folks looking to buy a car: take the fact that these TSB's never are an issue in real world or editorial world or take the position of kahunah who spins a tsb into a tragdedy...hmmmmm.
And KD - your BMW is underated in HP. This old argument of more power per liter is old and wrong - do the Hp/litre math and remember that on performance alone, not a editorial pick, the G wins handling stats and 0-60 and 0-100 stats. every time..show me one that has either losing the 3 by G....don't forget they detune the G sedan to make other cars more worthy of thier higher price in the infiniti line up. BMW has to bore out or stroke out the block to find anymore power...I just need a ECU upgrade. Numbers, Schnumbers, the track is the test...
First of all, the acceleration issue (whether the G35 is faster 0-60) is moot. I'm not arguing that the G35 isn't faster than most other cars in the segment (although it won't be any faster than a TL). Obviously, a car with a 3.5 six is going to be faster than the 2.0 four in the Saab and the 2.4 four in the TSX. I'm simply disputing your point that the balance of RWD cars provides some sort of inherent advantage that makes it more sporty.
In the Consumer Reports test, the Saab 9-3 made it through their avoidance course quicker than the G35, exhibited much better control in emergency handling, and out braked the G35. That was about as objective a set of tests as there is out there.
I'm at work and I don't have AUTOMOBILE in front of me, but as I recall, the TSX didn't do better in some handling tests (like skidpad).
the Saab 9-3 vs. Infiniti G35 comparison was on the "twisties" as you say. CR complained that the G35 was hard to control because of oversteer and noted that the Saab got through their avoidance course at a higher speed.
Again, I'm not trying to convince you that the Saab is the better car. I just think the notion that RWD is somehow superior to FWD doens't always hold up.
Some one must have posted this from edmunds already, sorry if it's redundant.
As we drove our TL prototype on various back roads, it did indeed feel tight around the turns with plenty of road information transferred to the driver seat. Although we found it to be an easy car to drive aggressively, we're not ready to call it an equal of the 3 or 5 Series, A4 or G35 in terms of handling. The Acura's front-drive layout is limiting from an enthusiast's point of view, but even less serious drivers are apt to notice that the TL floats and bobs over the occasional bump. This won't be a disadvantage for most people, and the payoff is excellent ride comfort when cruising on the highway.
Shouldn't bother most people...but I'm also interested to see what the comps bring us. TL is a GREAT car...lets see it in RWD format sooner than later.
when other sources pit the cars next to each other in head-to-heads.
And, btw, I believe the A4 being referenced in the blurb was probably Edmund's longterm vehicle (which is FWD, not AWD).
My TSX "Floats and bobs" over bumps, and generally has a ride that is not as well controlled as the Beemer or G35. So, I'm not surprised that Edmunds reached that conclusion with regard to the TL.
Glad you were on board today for a some nice banter that hopefully is taken in context by a soon to be wise shopper...should make for some good reading. Now if I could only decide on car #2. The more tix GF gets the more we should look at the corolla...anyone car to opine on the handling of the corolla over the sentra??!! kidding
Kahunah, you post "received or not received" notices by G35 owners. If you do a bit of research, you will find out that Infiniti customer service rivals Lexus customer service, so this comment from you seems more like a diatribe against Infiniti.
Secondly, going to the recalls and issues, I too thought that the Honda/Acura tranny issues are a part of the past, but recent events have shown otherwise. There are a few 2003 Accord owners complaining about transmissions and the dealers are 'replacing' these defective trannies with 'remanufactured' ones. This tranny is the same family as the Acura 5 speed, so seems there are still a few issues there. As I said before, I am going ahead and buying an ext warranty just for this reason. That does not mean the Accord or other Acura cars are not good, I love my Accord and would buy one again in an instant.
Most new model cars have recalls, and so did my 2003 Accord, for three reasons, and one of them, funnily enough, is for 'loose radiator hose', another for a fuel emissions canister that could screw up the cat, and the third one I don't remember off the top of my head. As I said, all cars have issues, and as long as they are resolved, that's fine.
Uncledavid, you choose to ignore the publications that I pointed out that picked the G35 over other cars, so does that show bias? Motor Trend and Road & Track are two of the most respected auto publications, but since they don't support your arguments, you choose to quote a girlie mag like Automobile? Since the TSX lacks torque, you hands sure would be wrenched by the steering of a Maxima.
Now to both Kahunah and Uncledavid, FWD platforms have a problem handling high torque, and few manufacturers have sorted it out. A few publications have said that even the V6 Accord exhibits this. The Maxima and Altima exhibit more torque steer for a couple of reasons: One, the VQ engine has a lot more torque than any Honda/Acura engine, and secondly, Honda has technically made more progress at eliminating this. Industry wise, 260-270 HP and likewise torque is said to be the limit FWD cars can handle. This is the reason that sport oriented cars go for the RWD platform.
"G35 can't stop?" Are you serious? The G was tested to stop in 113 feet from 60MPH, better times than a Porsche, and MT said that Infiniti had some left over brakes that they put on the G. In a nutshell, the G35 vs TL, the G out accelerates, out skidpads, out handles and out decelerates the "sporty" but bland TL. Need I say anything more? And top it up with Infiniti customer service, just the icing on the cake.
Answer: By engine braking, using a delicate Acura tranny. Wouldn't that be a challenge?
Seriously, do you really know what the brake wear problem was? How many cars were in accidents due to brake failures? Still, to answer your question, replace pads when they wear out.
so you can have the second best stopping vehicle in production again. It should be an issue every 30k. Thank god someone else can spot the anti-infiniti flames.
You might need to pay a little bit closer attention to what people are writing.
I'm not ignoring Motor Trend et al. I also never claimed to conduct a comprehensive review of all available road tests. Kdshapiro challenged to me to find at least one comparo that concluded that the G35 did not handle as well as the FWD competition, and I did so. In fact, I found two such comparos.
I didn't say that no source rated the G35 higher and and I agree that there are some who will view the G35 as the superior vehicle. I never disputed that at all. In fact, I'm not even sure that I don't view the G35 as the superior vehicle. And, I would also agree with you that Motor Trend should be weighed more heavily than AUTOMOBILE.
I'm not sure what your comment about the TSX and the Maxima has to do with anything. But, yes, I agree that part of the reason torque steer is not an issue in the TSX is that the K24 engine is not high torque.
I also agree with in general about HP and FWD. FWD platforms are not ideal for very powerful engines. But, a very sporty sedan does not have to have 280 HP. The BMW325i is about as pure a sports sedan as there is out there, and it only has 185 HP. And, at more moderate levels of torque, there are techniques for controling and eliminating torque steer.
Right now, the only FWD cars on the market with serious torque steer issues are the Nissans and some Saabs.
Sorry, gotta speak up and agree with chrisboth here. Your just flaming infiniti on an apparent non-issue. As a g owner, that had brake issues, it's dead-on apparent that the problem is around -- I mean granted it happened to quickly, but its a question of wear and tear --- not outright failure. If one can't tell that their brakes are wearing then they shouldn't be driving. Replace the pads and everythign is fine.
How can you be giving so much negative attention to this issue --- when acura has had WAAAAY more cars suffer IMMEDIATE TRANNY FAILURE in the middle of the road -- with no indiciation.
I mean put it in perspective... would you rather safely recognize you need to replace your pads or have your car drop into 2 second gear while going 75 on the highway.
NOTE: Im not trying to bash acura on the tranny issue -- and lord knows, ive had issues with my g but overall i'd be happy to own either car -- I just had to speak up -- your just bashing the g wo/ merit on this issue.
"And, I would also agree with you that Motor Trend should be weighed more heavily than AUTOMOBILE. "
- Why? As a subscriber for years of Motor Trend, Automobile, and Car and Driver, I have found Automobile to be as insightful and un-biased (actually more so) than Motor Trend. My personal opinion is that Car and Driver is the best of the three in this area, but have found instances where even they have exhibited biased opinions on cars. Even though all three try to display an unbiased opinion on evaluating cars, they do have to sell add space to car manufacturers and borrow loaners as well.
03accordman - BTW, your info and quotes, I believe were from last month's Car and Driver issue. They highly praised the G35 MT, where they were critical of the G35 AT.
In terms of torque steer and FWD vehicles, it was stated that Limitied Slip Differentials help aleviate if not totally get rid of this issue entirely. When I test-drove an '02 Maxima with an LSD, it did not display torque steer. I believe the '04 TL comes with a LSD in the front axle.
I appreciate your perspective. I suppose I was reacting to the sports sedan shootout that AUTOMOBILE recently did. They ranked the TSX at the top of the heap, despite the fact that it trailed other vehicles in nearly every performance area. And, I also thought the comparison of a A4 AWD vs. FWD TSX VS. 325i Automatic was kind of daft. I though that article was so poorly done, that I lost a lot of respect for AUTOMOBILE.
It sounds like they were comparing Apples and Oranges to get the TSX in the most favorable arena. My guess is that the TSX was probably the least expensive of the group, so they gave the TSX the win based on price (which is unfair if it gets throughly destroyed in other areas).
BTW, did you see how much add space was in the magazine for the TSX? I have noticed (including C&D) that add space has a significant influence on how highly a vehicle is scored in a test.
I remember a pickup truck comparison in C&D a couple of years ago that had an F150, a Tundra, a Dodge Pickup, and a Chevy. The Tundra blew away the other vehicles in every category, but lost out in the end to a major "Subjective" category since it was only a "7/8 scale pickup", and thus you see the commercial for the Dodge Pickup as being pick the best pickup by C&D over and over again on TV.
This is a litte off track of the present discussion,but I do think the apples and oranges comparison was the issue. They blunted the performance of the beemer with an AT and they picked an Audi A4 with the 1.8 and AWD (a setup that is hopelessly underpowered for the weight). There were also some factual errors (like reporting that the TSX has an LSD).
Maybe that article was not typical of their work. But, lets just say that AUTOMOBILE is not EDMUNDS or Consumer Reports.
Since you mention Edmunds as I'm assuming... a more accurate reviewer. Just for kicks... read some of the editors notes on the TLS in the head to head review last year. They include such comments as "very good car but not a sports sedan.", "mediocre canyon carving ability", and "given the choice of cars in this test, I'd have to go with the 330i or the G35 before choosing the Acura." But yet the TLS finished 2nd in a review that was to focus on the sport side of the sports sedan equation.
Just for more kicks... take a look at the editor's evaluations. The numbers ranking by item. Out of 23 items, the TLS finished ahead of the G35 in 5 areas, and tied in two. Take a look at which specific items by the way. Then go back and look at the final scores. Ask yourself does it makes sense? Even ask yourself how there was such a significant difference between the results from one year to the next with no significant changes in the TLS and the 330i from one year to the next. Yes I know Edmunds is our host... but yes I'm bashing them anyway.
I'll agree with you about the Automobile comparison test though. That was pathetic in my opinion.
I've never had a tranny or a brake issue with my 2000 TL. In fact, it's running just as good as the day I bought it. And yes 03accordman, I engine brake all the time. But then again, I'm one of these guys that never (and I mean never) misses a scheduled service, as recommended by the manufacturer.
That being said, it was never my intention to bash Infiniti. Yes, I admit I had some fun at the G35's expense. But I did it to prove a point. The G is not the be all and end all of sports sedans. I mean you had guys on this board trying to equate the G35 to the BMW 5-Series...give me a break.
If you really want to know my thoughts on the issue of 'Infiniti G35 vs. 2004 Acura TL', just go to message #72 on this board.
Yikes, for a while, this discussion sounded like "My daddy can beat up your daddy". Not to bash anyone, but it seemed kind of getting further and further from facts...almost like an election campaign.
Really, when it comes down to it what should we care if Road and Track rated one car over the other, or Consumer Reports had it vice versa, etc... They are humans and have opinions, just like everyone else. But I won't buy a car just because they say so. I've been a Car and Driver reader for about 20 years. I agree with them 90% of the time, so I do value their opinion, but it is just that...their opinion.
I'm sending my wife from the 2001 TL to the 2004 G35. Yes, I know the last generation 2003 TL-S beat the G in a C&D comparo, but whatever. As long as the car is safe for her, SHE likes it and it is reliable (I have extensively researched the brakes issue and others, and while I'm not as confident in the Infiniti as I am in the Acura, I'm satisfied it shouldn't leave her stranded), then I could give a ...insert phrase here... what the magazine thinks.
Personally, I think as long as the owner likes the car, that is what matters.
I am a little concerned about the resale value of the G35, but I guess it's too early to know about that yet. Our 2001 TL, with just 25,000 miles on it, is probably still worth $20,000. I hope the G keeps that kind of value.
I think it's hard to deny that the G offers good performance/comfort/features/value for the money. As I mentioned before, it is just a completely opposite approach than Acura took. Someone brought up torque steer before. Obviously, as the G is a rear driver that is not an issue. I had a 2003 Maxima as a rental once, and I thought it was a great car, but I concur that it had horrible torque steer. But our current TL is not void of it either. It is inherent to a front drive car with plenty of power. No matter how hard they try, the company can't overcome the laws of physics. If you want torque steer, you should try the Cadillacs of the early/mid 90's right after the Northstar came out. I was a valet in college from '94-'97 and drove lots of them. It would sprain your wrist.
Wish me luck with this G35 purchase. I'm excited, but can't help be somewhat nervous about the car, having heard of some if it's potential issues. Our TL, while a little boring, was so rock solid, I'm hesitant to get rid of it. I never drive the car. I've probably driven it 12 times in the 2 1/2 years we've had it, but I want to make sure my wife is happy and safe.
We could argue TL vs. G35 all night long. But, at the end of the day, they are both great cars. I expect we'll buy another car in a year or so, and it will probably be a TL. But, I'm confident that you'll get your money's worth with a G35. It will be reliable, offer great performance, and you'll enjoy the ownership experience and the great treatment for Infiniti.
Acura is known for great handling and aerodynamics, RWD or FWD. Nissan on the other hand never was a good handling vehicle, maybe except 300ZX. My point is that Acura have enough experience to build a winner FWD in mostly RWD segment.
Comments
Any other claims regarding the G i am willing to support...what do you want?
Now, go to the 'Acura TL Owners: Problems & Solutions' board. Oh...what's that you say? There are only two postings. How many deal with brakes...none?!
I rest my case.
THIS CAR DIDN'T WIN THE TQA award this year from being any worse than every other lux car makers out there. INfiniti is #1 maker per JD power for extended ownership and #2 or 3 in initial quality. Over caddy, the falling BMW and Audi and over acura.
I rest my case. for a first year car, not bad at all - especially with Infiniti standing behind them.
Get real dude. Do you just make up this stuff as you go. JD power IS the leader in market research and all manufacturers live by thier rating. I don't need help with my individual ownership if i buy a car that wins TQA and #1 in extended ownership (this one is the one that really matters).
Infiniti will have rectified the brake issue by year end...and again it's an issue for a couple thousand early owners.
If you need help in your ownership experience the Luxus and Infiniti nameplates offer the most trouble free experience in many opinions including JD power. You dont think BMW offers a trouble free experience do you? Not even close
I don't think Infiniti does either. But my BMW has been serviced twice in 1 year and 6 months and been to the dealer twice. How many times has your G35 been serviced or to the dealer in the same period? Seems a trouble free experience to me.
Think those two hundred posts on the Edmunds forum is speaking about a trouble free ownership experience? Not even close. JD Power may be your first line of reference when you buy a car, but not one, I repeat none of the people I know even look at JD Power before they buy a car. Know why? They understand if they get a lemon JD Power won't buy it back from them.
All seem to have their benefits and drawbacks. Depending on the criteria, one will be superior to the other. If the criteria changes, so does the superiority of one vs. the other. :-)
Also, you'll see brake issues mentioned frequently as well, and someone else has already mentioned the same issue with the TSX, just as the G35.
Kevin.. always just a matter of time.
I'm still laughing at the 85% of a 3 series comment in the same sentence as the comment that the G wins many comparos...
One more time...unless you bought one of the first few thousand G's, you should expect flawless performance that exceeds the 3 and equals the TL. And even those first few are being corrected.
To answer KD my car is in shop for 2x in 15000 and no problems. Brakes are fine as is all else - just as i expected it...I honestly based on opinions from family and freinds and reviews would not expect that from any german car...othewise i'd be an A6 driver right now.
However, this is not the G35 vs 330i forum. Maybe you should scan that thread to see the commentary on the reviews and why G35 advocates were unhappy with a lot of the results and rightfully so as the reviews indicated, the car has some weaknesses that take it out of the running as a top-flight sports sedan.
33.3% objective measures (performance data)
33.3% subjective measures (fun-to-drive, etc)
33.3% price
The G35 did well in the first two categories, but did not win these outright, and cleaned house in the price category. This made it the easy winner.
What I find more interesting is that this breakdown allows an individual to adjust the weights of this comparison for their own tastes (ie, if price is not as important of a factor then the rankings change quickly).
The writers conceded that 'for the price, the G35 wins hands-down'. However, they also mentioned that if the 330i wasn't so expensive it would have won.
In general, I would say that Nissans/Infinitis are as reliable as Hondas/Acuras, if not more, so reliability shouldn't be an issue.
My wife owns a 2000 Altima with 66k miles, and till date I have had zero problems with the car, just keep changing oil at recommended periods. Pretty bulletproof.
If you had looked at the TL problems/solutions board, you would not have brought the G35 issue up, I can assure you of that. If you don't believe me, check it out, and infact check the Odyssey/TL/Accord boards which refer to the tranny problem
And where did you miss 2 times in 15k miles (thats what 2x means)
Look as much as you have tried this with me before over the last nine months - you cannot convince me that the G is not the top or shares the top of the heap. One 2nd place review and some issues that get drilled over and over by the same folks on a maintenance forum is not a reason to call it shy of anything. I say it wins on the track and you say it loses in the forum of complaints?? The G has turned this market on it's ear for a reason. And turned infiniti into a powerful player once again...all with a brake issue and everything.
I've actually been trying to get to a track with my 330i bud and he cant seem to get his car out of the shop..he made some posts on bmwowner forums...maybe this is the start of BMW falling down...chat rooms are everything right?? right.
Show me weakness and I'll show you how it won't stack up when the track numbers clearly show the G shines or beat the competition. SHOW ME THE MONEY KD...support your claim.
Why don't you two agree to disagree, and then let's remember that the subject is the TL vs. the G35 and leave the 3-Series out of the conversation.
Thanks.
The G35 quality issues don't end with the brakes. Of all the recall notices received (or perhaps not received) by G35 owners, this one's my favorite:
'03 Infiniti G35
Problem: Improperly attached fuel hose could become disconnected when engine is started or car is driven, resulting in engine failure and risk of crash. Also, if hose loosens, fuel could spill and pose fire hazard.
Models: 18,300 cars made 1/02 to 7/02.
What to do: Have dealer inspect and, if necessary, properly attach fuel hose to fuel pump.
Source: Consumer Reports
My only point was the claim that the RWD is inherently superior to FWD is not supported by the data. Some reasonably trustworthy sources rank similarly priced (and sometimes cheaper) FWD cars superior to the G35. And, those sources are testing the cars at more extreme limits than any of us ever will. Moreover, both sources offer up some hard objective data in support (times through slalom courses, skidpad, etc).
So, my point remains, a FWD car can be very sporty and can compete well with RWD cars and even exceed RWD cars in some categories. Those of you who argue that the G35 will definitely be more sporty than the TL because the G35 is RWD are buying into a urban myth. RWD is not always better. Both sorts of setups offer advantages in daily driving.
Now, if we want to talk racetrack performance, or drivetrains with lots of power (where torque steer becomes a very significant issue) that is different.
Unrelated point: On the question of reliablity - I realize that the G35 has had some problems in its first year, and the TL will likely have some problems as well. But, both cars should be quite reliable at the end of the day. I am a longtime Honda/Acura owner and even I don't believe that Acura products are any more reliable than Infiniti. The data (from CR and other sources) don't really support that conclusion.
THere are problems the manufacturer figures out after the car is released and then goes back to correct on any new model...no one ever had a fire in G from lack of this TSB. There is also one for brake lights not working, you missed that? If they get it figured out before there is a problem in the real world then they did the right thing even though ther TSB can be turned around against them by people who buy cars based on how many TSB's there are. Look at BMW's release of the new 3 160 something tsb's and the reuslts can be the worst possible scenario.
You guys better find something better to sling mud a G with. TSB's that FIX possible problems before they occur is what we lux owners want. There are expected to be a few up front.
"My only point was the claim that the RWD is inherently superior to FWD...."
Again find one comparo where a FWD vehicle wins in the sports sedan segment to a RWD vehicle. RWD is better if the car is engineered properly if you want to drive a sports sedan. We seem to be going round in circles. RWD is not better is you are looking for cars in general. But if you want a sports sedan and are very serious about sports sedans then you have to get a decently balanced car with RWD.
Chrisboth, there are going to be issues with any new model, including service bulletins and recalls. The point with Infiniti, however, is that company has shown an eagerness to make the ownership experience a positive one. Infiniti is willing to go the extra yard to address any problems. That is a lot more than I can say for Acura.
Kahunah - I test drove the Maxima SE. The wheel felt like it was going to jump out of my hand everytime I accelerated!
CR tested the Saab 9-3 and Infiniti G35 head-to-head and concluded the 9-3 handled better.
AUTOMOBILE tested 10 sports sedans head-to-head. They rated the TSX at the top of the heap, above several RWD cars (including the G35, IS300, and BWM 325i). They also rated the Mazda M6 in the top half as well, above many RWD cars.
In both reviews, it was not simply a case of one car being "liked" more than the others because of features like interior quality. In fact, the FWD cars out performed the G35 on more objective measures.
There are plenty of excellent sports sedans out there that have FWD.
We don't have the data yet, but I'm willing to be the TL will emerge the victor when there are head-to-head comparisons.
What were the objective facts the brought the TSX above the G35. In the case of the 3 vs the G35 the 3 with the smaller engine kept pace with the G with the larger engine. The G won some the 3 won some, but the G won on value. That is not winning in my book. I would have to believe the same for the TSX.
And since these G's dont even have brakes and go into flames are every fill up we should all be wary of going to the gas station....dont hang on to those threads of hope for an argument that might convince a smart comsumer the G is tragedy waiting to happen..it aint flying. You and KD should join the DNC to spin Arnold out of office. Take anything out of context and it can make anything seem bad...lets see for you folks looking to buy a car: take the fact that these TSB's never are an issue in real world or editorial world or take the position of kahunah who spins a tsb into a tragdedy...hmmmmm.
And KD - your BMW is underated in HP. This old argument of more power per liter is old and wrong - do the Hp/litre math and remember that on performance alone, not a editorial pick, the G wins handling stats and 0-60 and 0-100 stats. every time..show me one that has either losing the 3 by G....don't forget they detune the G sedan to make other cars more worthy of thier higher price in the infiniti line up. BMW has to bore out or stroke out the block to find anymore power...I just need a ECU upgrade. Numbers, Schnumbers, the track is the test...
look out got the G's a fire....muhhahhahahha
In the Consumer Reports test, the Saab 9-3 made it through their avoidance course quicker than the G35, exhibited much better control in emergency handling, and out braked the G35. That was about as objective a set of tests as there is out there.
I'm at work and I don't have AUTOMOBILE in front of me, but as I recall, the TSX didn't do better in some handling tests (like skidpad).
Again, I'm not trying to convince you that the Saab is the better car. I just think the notion that RWD is somehow superior to FWD doens't always hold up.
The sarcastic comments are unnecessary and need to stop as do the continuing references to cars that have nothing to do with the topic.
Debate the subject vehicles in a civil and respectful manner, please.
Further messages that can't comply with this will have to be removed.
As we drove our TL prototype on various back roads, it did indeed feel tight around the turns with plenty of road information transferred to the driver seat. Although we found it to be an easy car to drive aggressively, we're not ready to call it an equal of the 3 or 5 Series, A4 or G35 in terms of handling. The Acura's front-drive layout is limiting from an enthusiast's point of view, but even less serious drivers are apt to notice that the TL floats and bobs over the occasional bump. This won't be a disadvantage for most people, and the payoff is excellent ride comfort when cruising on the highway.
Shouldn't bother most people...but I'm also interested to see what the comps bring us. TL is a GREAT car...lets see it in RWD format sooner than later.
(Please provide links when you quote copyrighted material, even it's on Edmunds - thanks!)
And, btw, I believe the A4 being referenced in the blurb was probably Edmund's longterm vehicle (which is FWD, not AWD).
My TSX "Floats and bobs" over bumps, and generally has a ride that is not as well controlled as the Beemer or G35. So, I'm not surprised that Edmunds reached that conclusion with regard to the TL.
Secondly, going to the recalls and issues, I too thought that the Honda/Acura tranny issues are a part of the past, but recent events have shown otherwise. There are a few 2003 Accord owners complaining about transmissions and the dealers are 'replacing' these defective trannies with 'remanufactured' ones. This tranny is the same family as the Acura 5 speed, so seems there are still a few issues there. As I said before, I am going ahead and buying an ext warranty just for this reason. That does not mean the Accord or other Acura cars are not good, I love my Accord and would buy one again in an instant.
Most new model cars have recalls, and so did my 2003 Accord, for three reasons, and one of them, funnily enough, is for 'loose radiator hose', another for a fuel emissions canister that could screw up the cat, and the third one I don't remember off the top of my head. As I said, all cars have issues, and as long as they are resolved, that's fine.
Uncledavid, you choose to ignore the publications that I pointed out that picked the G35 over other cars, so does that show bias? Motor Trend and Road & Track are two of the most respected auto publications, but since they don't support your arguments, you choose to quote a girlie mag like Automobile? Since the TSX lacks torque, you hands sure would be wrenched by the steering of a Maxima.
Now to both Kahunah and Uncledavid, FWD platforms have a problem handling high torque, and few manufacturers have sorted it out. A few publications have said that even the V6 Accord exhibits this. The Maxima and Altima exhibit more torque steer for a couple of reasons: One, the VQ engine has a lot more torque than any Honda/Acura engine, and secondly, Honda has technically made more progress at eliminating this. Industry wise, 260-270 HP and likewise torque is said to be the limit FWD cars can handle. This is the reason that sport oriented cars go for the RWD platform.
Seriously, do you really know what the brake wear problem was? How many cars were in accidents due to brake failures? Still, to answer your question, replace pads when they wear out.
I'm not ignoring Motor Trend et al. I also never claimed to conduct a comprehensive review of all available road tests. Kdshapiro challenged to me to find at least one comparo that concluded that the G35 did not handle as well as the FWD competition, and I did so. In fact, I found two such comparos.
I didn't say that no source rated the G35 higher and and I agree that there are some who will view the G35 as the superior vehicle. I never disputed that at all. In fact, I'm not even sure that I don't view the G35 as the superior vehicle. And, I would also agree with you that Motor Trend should be weighed more heavily than AUTOMOBILE.
I'm not sure what your comment about the TSX and the Maxima has to do with anything. But, yes, I agree that part of the reason torque steer is not an issue in the TSX is that the K24 engine is not high torque.
I also agree with in general about HP and FWD. FWD platforms are not ideal for very powerful engines. But, a very sporty sedan does not have to have 280 HP. The BMW325i is about as pure a sports sedan as there is out there, and it only has 185 HP. And, at more moderate levels of torque, there are techniques for controling and eliminating torque steer.
Right now, the only FWD cars on the market with serious torque steer issues are the Nissans and some Saabs.
How can you be giving so much negative attention to this issue --- when acura has had WAAAAY more cars suffer IMMEDIATE TRANNY FAILURE in the middle of the road -- with no indiciation.
I mean put it in perspective... would you rather safely recognize you need to replace your pads or have your car drop into 2 second gear while going 75 on the highway.
NOTE: Im not trying to bash acura on the tranny issue -- and lord knows, ive had issues with my g but overall i'd be happy to own either car -- I just had to speak up -- your just bashing the g wo/ merit on this issue.
- Why? As a subscriber for years of Motor Trend, Automobile, and Car and Driver, I have found Automobile to be as insightful and un-biased (actually more so) than Motor Trend. My personal opinion is that Car and Driver is the best of the three in this area, but have found instances where even they have exhibited biased opinions on cars. Even though all three try to display an unbiased opinion on evaluating cars, they do have to sell add space to car manufacturers and borrow loaners as well.
03accordman - BTW, your info and quotes, I believe were from last month's Car and Driver issue. They highly praised the G35 MT, where they were critical of the G35 AT.
In terms of torque steer and FWD vehicles, it was stated that Limitied Slip Differentials help aleviate if not totally get rid of this issue entirely. When I test-drove an '02 Maxima with an LSD, it did not display torque steer. I believe the '04 TL comes with a LSD in the front axle.
BTW, did you see how much add space was in the magazine for the TSX? I have noticed (including C&D) that add space has a significant influence on how highly a vehicle is scored in a test.
I remember a pickup truck comparison in C&D a couple of years ago that had an F150, a Tundra, a Dodge Pickup, and a Chevy. The Tundra blew away the other vehicles in every category, but lost out in the end to a major "Subjective" category since it was only a "7/8 scale pickup", and thus you see the commercial for the Dodge Pickup as being pick the best pickup by C&D over and over again on TV.
There were also some factual errors (like reporting that the TSX has an LSD).
Maybe that article was not typical of their work. But, lets just say that AUTOMOBILE is not EDMUNDS or Consumer Reports.
See them here: http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/73569/page007.- - html
Just for more kicks... take a look at the editor's evaluations. The numbers ranking by item. Out of 23 items, the TLS finished ahead of the G35 in 5 areas, and tied in two. Take a look at which specific items by the way. Then go back and look at the final scores. Ask yourself does it makes sense? Even ask yourself how there was such a significant difference between the results from one year to the next with no significant changes in the TLS and the 330i from one year to the next. Yes I know Edmunds is our host... but yes I'm bashing them anyway.
I'll agree with you about the Automobile comparison test though. That was pathetic in my opinion.
That being said, it was never my intention to bash Infiniti. Yes, I admit I had some fun at the G35's expense. But I did it to prove a point. The G is not the be all and end all of sports sedans. I mean you had guys on this board trying to equate the G35 to the BMW 5-Series...give me a break.
If you really want to know my thoughts on the issue of 'Infiniti G35 vs. 2004 Acura TL', just go to message #72 on this board.
Really, when it comes down to it what should we care if Road and Track rated one car over the other, or Consumer Reports had it vice versa, etc... They are humans and have opinions, just like everyone else. But I won't buy a car just because they say so. I've been a Car and Driver reader for about 20 years. I agree with them 90% of the time, so I do value their opinion, but it is just that...their opinion.
I'm sending my wife from the 2001 TL to the 2004 G35. Yes, I know the last generation 2003 TL-S beat the G in a C&D comparo, but whatever. As long as the car is safe for her, SHE likes it and it is reliable (I have extensively researched the brakes issue and others, and while I'm not as confident in the Infiniti as I am in the Acura, I'm satisfied it shouldn't leave her stranded), then I could give a ...insert phrase here... what the magazine thinks.
Personally, I think as long as the owner likes the car, that is what matters.
I am a little concerned about the resale value of the G35, but I guess it's too early to know about that yet. Our 2001 TL, with just 25,000 miles on it, is probably still worth $20,000. I hope the G keeps that kind of value.
I think it's hard to deny that the G offers good performance/comfort/features/value for the money. As I mentioned before, it is just a completely opposite approach than Acura took. Someone brought up torque steer before. Obviously, as the G is a rear driver that is not an issue. I had a 2003 Maxima as a rental once, and I thought it was a great car, but I concur that it had horrible torque steer. But our current TL is not void of it either. It is inherent to a front drive car with plenty of power. No matter how hard they try, the company can't overcome the laws of physics. If you want torque steer, you should try the Cadillacs of the early/mid 90's right after the Northstar came out. I was a valet in college from '94-'97 and drove lots of them. It would sprain your wrist.
Wish me luck with this G35 purchase. I'm excited, but can't help be somewhat nervous about the car, having heard of some if it's potential issues. Our TL, while a little boring, was so rock solid, I'm hesitant to get rid of it. I never drive the car. I've probably driven it 12 times in the 2 1/2 years we've had it, but I want to make sure my wife is happy and safe.
Steve
We could argue TL vs. G35 all night long. But, at the end of the day, they are both great cars. I expect we'll buy another car in a year or so, and it will probably be a TL. But, I'm confident that you'll get your money's worth with a G35. It will be reliable, offer great performance, and you'll enjoy the ownership experience and the great treatment for Infiniti.
Either way, enjoy your purchase!