Toyota Prius

dgecho1

And, pray tell, what is so stylish about a box on wheels? Aeodynamics, I won't even talk about. Yes, the Prius is odd-looking in pics and then you seee it for real and it actually looks quite nice!

geogirl

Please don't hate me, but I had never heard of the Prius until shortly before Thanksgiving. (Was looking at Camrys and saw the Prius on the Toyota site.) We test drove it after Thanksgiving and we both liked it (before the test drive, I was leaning toward buying the Honda Accord.) The week after Thanksgiving I saw a dealer ad that said they had Prius available. They had two on the lot that a company had ordered, but got elsewhere quicker. They both were sold that same day. The saleswoman called to tell me that they were receiving a red Prius #3 (the color and option I wanted!) before the end of the year and told me to put down a $500 deposit for it. I did and it came in early on Christmas Eve. I decided that maybe it was fate for me to have this car since I had been reading this forum and knew that this was not the typical experience. I ended up only waiting about two weeks for the car. I paid MSRP for it. The internet manager who I had contacted initially said that she would waive the D&H of $349, but could not come down in price on the car because of the great demand for it. At the dealership Christmas Eve, the internet manager was not there so had to deal with a different salesman who "didn't know about waiving the D&H." I insisted that was the deal and since all of this had been done via phone, I had no proof. After questioning me like a suspect both by the salesman and his manager, they waived it. Then came the fight about my trade-in - they initially only offered me $300 for my 1993 Subaru - yes, it is old, but Kelley Blue book says minimum of $550 with Edmunds saying $940 based on my mileage and wear. I showed them the numbers from Edmunds and pointed out how much money they were making off the Prius (~$2100 not counting the markup on the floor mats that I paid $184 for and were not an option to refuse). The salesman said that Edmunds was wrong about their prices and that he would show me the invoice to prove it. When he asked his manager for the invoice, they claimed since it was a new car model that they didn't have it! However at that point they agreed to give me $1000 for my trade-in! I was very happy about that and frankly it was more than I thought I would get for it. Unfortunately because it was Christmas Eve and staffing was limited, I had to wait TWO HOURS after the deal was done to give them a check because I had to only deal with the finance person even though I was paying cash! I wasn't happy about that, but they were all wanting to go home too. Sorry for the long story - the last time I bought a car was in 1995 so I don't do this often, but learned a lot from this site. Thanks to you all for your expertise. I really like the car.

wwest

Is my idea of what the Prius should look like.

talleyid

Just my two cents. I was originally interested in the Silver/Grey color combination until I saw one in person. Obviously this is subjective but the silver just wasn't what I wanted and the gray interior was MUCH lighter than I thought from the marketing materials (my own perceptive error). I was interested in the gray for hiding soil, etc. but I just didn't see a significant difference between the two interior colors in that respect.

I decided on the Driftwood Pearl / Tan combination just because I felt it was a better color combination / coordination with no better or worse visibility of soil.

I was looking over the cleaning information that came with the car and it looks like the interiors are fairly easy to clean with a rapid (within 30 mins.) response to spills being key. It suggest simply water and/or lemon juice for most spills and stains.

drscientific

Am I the only one on this forum who has experienced the sudden shutdown of ICE and appearance of many warning lights on dash?

Because everyone does not read every post, I'll be asking every few pages until I get responses or perceive that none will be forthcoming.

This problem is potentially life-threatening. I would like to collect more information from those who also have experienced the same problem.

Thank you.

drscientific

Grabby brakes have been reported by many. With two braking systems (regenerative and traditional disk), you may feel a "grabbiness." After over 7,000 miles, I have gotten used to it. The regenerative braking is already working when you press harder and the disk brakes kick in. Having less work to do, the disk brakes are more effective compared with other cars. Also, brake pads last longer (in theory -- I'll find out eventually).

john1701a

> Grabby brakes have been reported by many.

Not with the 2004.

You are lumping the 2001-2003 models with the 2004, which is inappropriate since brake controller was changed.

There is a very noticable brake behavior difference between the classic & new model.

JOHN

gscheil1

John, Do you have to be on the Audio screen to give audio commands?

As an example- can I do a voice command for temperature while on the map screen?

john1701a

> Am I the only one on this forum who has experienced
> the sudden shutdown of ICE and appearance of many warning
> lights on dash?

Yes, you are.

Not a single owner on any group, even the big one on Yahoo, has reported what you've experienced with a 2004.

The problem is very much isolated to just you own specific vehicle. That's why I asked for greater detail. You are the only one that can provide it to help with a diagnosis if it ever does happen to someone else.

JOHN

john1701a

Some of the generic commands, like temperature & audio, can be done anywhere. Most everything map related requires the map screen to be active when you issue the request.

JOHN

gscheil1

You might look at messages 1918, 1831, 1832, 1833, 1834,1835, 1836 and 1837 among others.Don't be too concerned unless you are driving in heavy rain.

juliaj

I posted my transaxle problems in this forum in messages 1730 and 1808. My VIN is 3664. The Toyota diagnosis was moisture in the M5 connector and it was "fixed" with dielectric grease. My breakdown happened 12/11 on the freeway while traveling at 75mph. It was the day after driving in heavy rain. Since then, have put on 1500 more miles without a problem. Lots of rain, some snow. Several trips through the bumper to bumper at 75 traffic of Chicago. The potential of having the loss of power happen again does make me nervous.

djasonw

Around two weeks ago I had to drive home from my house in NE PA to my house on Long Island. It was snowing when I left and the road was totally snow packed. When I reached the snow/rain line the rain was quite heavy for 70 miles of the trip. I crossed huge puddles and NEVER EVER did the engine even hiccup. The car was ROCK solid and I was amazed at how it handled a snowstorm which nearly turned into a monsoon!! If MY car handled this amount of water without an ICE shutdown, I doubt it has that type of vulnerability. I have driven many other times in heavy rain will no effects at all. I believe it's an isolated incident. I have not read anyone having a problem like that on ALL the boards I frequent.

texassalsa04

...a bit late in the conversation but I have some thoughts...I have owned Toyotas from several different decades starting with the mid '70s and have seen their designs changed quite a bit. I don't know what is going on with their design team lately, but the recent designs coming from Toyota is not that great. One of my previous car was a '94 MR2 and it is one of the best design, imo, that Toyota had put out. My background is in industrial and architectural design and I've seen many ugly designs over the years (Pontiac Aztek, Subaru WRX STi, Mitsu.Eclipse). Again, just my personal opinion.

The Prius is a compromise. I like the front and back end but the sides are like walls of sheet metal. Thank goodness they had created a crease at the lower waist line, otherwise, it would have been one massive side. I also like the "Zagato influenced" bubble roof lines. Don't care for the rooftop antenna. Seems like a lot of manufacturers are doing this. They could have put in a retractable antenna which, when not in use, create less drag. Even my old MR2 had a power antenna. I don't listen to the radio much so a retractable antenna would have been great.

Besides these minor complaints, I love the car and love driving it. I hope that Toyota will do a bit better design for the 3rd generation of the Prius. If they can make such dramatic design change from the 1st to the 2nd generation, I am really looking forward to the next iteration. I strongly believe that styling/design is as important as the engine/technology under the skin. Just my 2 cents...

john1701a

> I hope that Toyota will do a bit better design for the
> 3rd generation of the Prius.

First, the 2004 is the 3rd generation Prius.

Second, what does "better" mean?

JOHN

hans000

Have it for a week now. Here are some glitches to share:

1. While playing with the controls (the car was in park,) I shifted it into "N" and then many things froze: break indicator was red regardless of parking break; shift won't work (can't shift out of "N"); even power button won't shut it off. Only after hitting "P" button got it out. I guess it was on IG_ON mode but power button should have worked.

2. Had instrument panel light control in minimum by mistake. The next time I started it, nothing was on display. This is probably an expected behavior but caused some panic never the less.

3. The Owner's manual is poorly written.

In general I am happy with it. By the way, I have AM package. Really wanted Homelink. Find out from maintainance manual it can be put on on as accessary together with autodimming rearview mirror, $240.

Currently 42 MPG after 250 miles mixed driving.

john1701a

> shifted it into "N" and then many things froze

What do you need "N" for?

Toyota intentionally discourages its use, since it really doesn't serve any practical purpose in a full hybrid... hence the freezing you witnessed.

To shift out of "N", you have to step on the BRAKE pedal at the same time.

 
> I guess it was on IG_ON mode but power button
> should have worked.

If you intentionally want to override that safety setting, you have to continue to hold the button. After awhile, it will acknowledge your intentions and allow you to power off that way.

JOHN

hans000

Best is the "diversity" one printed on rear window. Camery has one.

=====
Don't care for the rooftop antenna. Seems like a lot of manufacturers are doing this. They could have put in a retractable antenna which, when not in use, create less drag. Even my old MR2 had a power antenna.

shado4

> What do you need "N" for?

Toyota intentionally discourages its use, since it really doesn't serve any practical purpose in a full hybrid... hence the freezing you witnessed. <

I could see needing N when the Prius is run through an automatic car wash (the ones where a car is pushed through on a guide rail). If you didn't have neutral, how could the car move through the car wash?

Also what about towing the Prius? Can you flat tow a Prius behind an RV? I would see a need for Neutral in that scenario.

shado4

> Don't care for the rooftop antenna. Seems like a lot of manufacturers are doing this. They could have put in a retractable antenna which, when not in use, create less drag. Even my old MR2 had a power antenna. <

Power antennas also freeze up (or down) in winter. Many times in my old Acura Integra I switched on the radio only to hear a whirring/clicking noise from an antenna that refused to go up.

They're OK when they work, but when they don't it's a major inconvenience.

john1701a

I meant WHEN YOU ARE INSIDE the Prius.

Towing & Pushing are a given. That makes sense, one basic setting that never changes.

What doesn't in a full hybrid is how some people use neutral when coming to a stop, for added control on snow, or when gliding down a hill. Those uses are meaningless with this design.

JOHN

texassalsa04

...second generation by body design...unless there is another body that was available in Japan that I have not seen but to my knowledge, there has only been two mass produced body designs. Please correct me if I am wrong.

...better in a sense of even more aerodynamic. Body not as massive. Window sills not as high up and waist line lower. Even more of a eliptical look...more so than the triangular roof line. I would even like more of, for lack of a better work, an "Egg" shape...

shado4

> I meant WHEN YOU ARE INSIDE the Prius. <

Oh, OK. Quit being so vague. ;-)

john1701a

> second generation by body design

There were simply too many cosmetic changes to call it a "model year" improvement to describe the difference between 2000 and 2001.

And since the hybrid system change significantly in 2001 too, "generation" is the appropriate label.

There is no in-between term. Coin one. We'll use it.

JOHN

hans000

Best is the "diversity" one printed on rear window. Camery has one.

=====
Don't care for the rooftop antenna. Seems like a lot of manufacturers are doing this. They could have put in a retractable antenna which, when not in use, create less drag. Even my old MR2 had a power antenna.

backy

The editors of Automobile magazine thought enough about the '04 Prius' design that they named it Design of the Year. But what do they know. ;-)

A "generation" typically refers to a major change to not only powertrains, but also the interior and exterior design and often the chassis. An examples: for '04, Chevy put a new engine into the Cavalier and also changed its front and rear styling. I have not heard anyone refer to these changes as a new generation of the Cavalier. The last generational change for the Cavalier was in late '94, when the car got an all-new body, interior, chassis, and (I think) some new engine choices. Many people call the mid-generation changes "refreshes", although I'm not aware of an official term for them. Another example is the RAV4--it got a revised engine for '04 plus some styling tweaks, but it too was not considered a new generation. I asked my Prius salesman about the Prius generations a few weeks ago, noting that some people think there have been more than two generations, and he was quite emphatic about there being only two generations, although he added that there have been changes to the hybrid powerplant along the way. So that's not an official word, but does give another opinion on the subject.

john1701a

I have a problem with "generations" too.

How much can you change before it is no longer the same vehicle?

There are many examples of nameplate transfers, where there really isn't any relation to the previous vehicle. The terminology doesn't really fit that either. Realistically, it's called "branding". And by using that logic, everything is messed up. But then again, how much different you want your next generation to be, aka: your children?

JOHN

texassalsa04

John "...There is no in-between term. Coin one. We'll use it..."

So, this is my suggestion for US Prius:

2001 - 2003 = Prius Mark I (MkI)
2004 - until new body design = Prius Mark II (MkII)

This will clarify which version of the Prius we are talking about. This has been done on other boards for "major" changes between both technical and body/cosmetic changes within the same model.

Backy...good points. I agree that minor cosmetic or mechanical changes do not constitute "generational" designation. As an example, lets say that for the 2005 model year, Toyota decides to re-shape the tail lamps and re-color it. This, in my opinion, does not constitute a generational change unless the whole body has also gone through major re-design.

I understand that under the skin there may be updates to the engine/hybrid system throughout the years. However, these tweaks, do not, (again, in my opinion) constitute and update to a Mark III status without also changing the whole look of the vehicle.

backy

How much can you change before it is no longer the same vehicle?

That's really a marketing question. Sometimes a name has worn out its welcome (e.g., Excel, Tercel, Bronco, Nova, soon Cavalier) for whatever reason. So the manufacturer decides to rename the vehicle when it is redesigned. Other cars have been redesigned many times over their lifetimes (e.g. Camry, Corolla, Civic, Accord, Impala, Mustang, Corvette) but retain their names because the manufacturers think there is positive brand equity in them. I expect that the Prius name will not live that long, maybe one more generation beyond the current one. Why? Because IMO the Prius is Toyota's showcase and testing ground for their latest hybrid technology, and once hybrid technology becomes mainstream and has spread across Toyota's entire lineup, there won't be a need for a single model that is a showcase for Toyota's hybrid technology.

Another idea to label the Prius generations is Prius Classic and Prius TNG, which is borrowed from an obvious source that John should recognize. ;-) Actually the Prius Classic label is already commonly used.

jchan2

Prius Classic (2000-2003)
Prius (2004)

I doubt the Prius will stay as soon as the Camry, Highlander, Corolla and RAV4 get hybrids because the Prius, like backy said, is Toyota's showcase for new tecnology.

ateixeira

That's the way it's done for the Miata. 1990-1997 models are referred to as M1, Gen. 1, Mark 1, etc. Even though the 1994 model got an entirely new engine and lots of other upgrades (brakes, chassis bracing), it's still counted at first generation.

M2 started in 1999, there was no 1998 model in the US. VVT and turbos have been added, but it's still an M2.

Just my 2 cents'. But what do half a million sport car owners know. ;-)

-juice

wwest

Usually mean two antennas, used to prevent signal "picket fencing" (in and out signal cancelation due to dual signal path) on the FM band.

texassalsa04

I predict that the Prius will be around for at least one or two more major body changes, or even longer. Because it is Toyota's technology showcase, that is more than a good reason for Toyota to continue it's developement. Can you imagine a hydrogen based Prius?

Keeping the Prius alive and well will give Toyota a platform to try out new technology without affecting the other model lines. Being conservative with other future hybrid lines like Corrolla or Camry may be beneficial to Toyota. Just my $0.02...

carguy1234

Anybody have an opinion on this (besides it being vague)?

http://lemonlaw.com/lemonlist.html

Prius is #2 on the lemon list? I suppose this is data from the classic Prius.

ateixeira

I question the technical merit given they can't even spell "Forester".

Neon ranks better than Civic or RAV4? I'll pass on that data...

-juice

john1701a

We made lemonade ages ago.

The site is nothing but a promotional tool for a group of attorneys.

There is no real merit behind their claim. They simply took advantage of a unique situation to add a popular new vehicle to their list, one that would generate lots of attention to their website.

JOHN

ateixeira

How can Escape top the list, and then the Tribute not even be on it? They are twins, and were affected by the same recalls and other problems. They say it's sales weighted.

Buick LeSabre is among the most reliable on that platform, yet the list implies the opposite.

At a minimum, they just don't have a large enough sample for it to have any meaning.

-juice

petl

Complaints don't always add up to defects. As john1701a stated it's about lawyers lobbying for business. Most are duplicates and are minor in nature (there are many "don't likes").

jchan2

Hey, the Civic is one of CR's most reliable cars and is even recommended, as are several other cars on the list, including the Forester, Legacy, Outback, Highlander and Prius. Where's the Tribute, a clone of the Escape on the list??

backy

As has been noted, the "index" is sales-weighted. So the Classic Prius might get hit hard in this index because of its relatively low sales compared to other vehicles and because of the number of complaints to NHTSA that might have been generated early in the Prius' history, e.g. the fast-wearing tires on early cars. Without knowing how the index was calculated, it's pretty worthless, and misleading, information.

drscientific

Only JuliaJ has reported the same problem. Interestingly, her problem occurred the day **after** driving in the rain. So did my second problem, which recurred after that until grease replaced (second time).

Note that the M5 connector is **inside** the transaxle and so is not immediately affected by rain. The moist air inside the transaxle condenses on the wire leading to the connector and runs down into it. The resulting "short" across connectors causes the symptom. Sitting (in broken-down condition) for several hours allows you to drive again, but you may break down again as I did after just 53 miles.

I'm still waiting for Toyota to respond.

kerensky

Can anyone tell me if the steering wheel controls are lighted at night?

john1701a

Yes.

Except you'll find after awhile that looking isn't needed anymore. The buttons are specially designed to be operated based on position & feel.

JOHN

priuspete

John:

To my understanding the previous generations did not have traction control on them. So I'm curious as to how your older model prius has it. Was traction control an option then?

One of the selling points of the 04 prius is the fact that it comes with traction control. And as I took my prius on for a slight alignment adjustment I talked to the service manager and he says the older model prius didn't have traction control.

shmunson

I have found two Prius pkg 7 + CF that are available in my area. I am calling tomorrow to find out if they are interested in a last minute sale with a slight discount (stop laughing - its possible). If they balk, I will post the dealers and allow you start attacking each other. Check tomorrow for results.

john1701a

The classic model clearly had "traction control". It was very easy to feel it "pulse" when grip was lost on heavy & wet snow.

The catch is that version of "traction control" was actually a "hybrid" of what fit the official definition/implementation. So Toyota wasn't allowed to actually call it that.

That was an obvious lost marketing opportunity. So they tweaked it in the 2004 design to meet the official qualification.

JOHN

backy

Well, if there's a time for bargaining, the last day of the year is a good one! Don't forget that the hybrid tax deduction is $500 more tomorrow than it will be on Thursday. Good luck!

jchan2

will be $2000 today (income deduction) and $1500 tomorrow. (income deduction) Apparently the president is phasing out the incentives, but is encouraging people to buy them, yet he's sponsoring fuel cells and will probably offer a huge tax credit on fuel cells when they come out. (if they come out)

jtc2

Backy-
I am looking to buy a '04 Prius in the twin cities. Any dealer recommendations? What kind of wait time can I expect. Looking for Option pkg #9.

bksward

Apparently the president is phasing out the incentives, but is encouraging people to buy them, yet he's sponsoring fuel cells and will probably offer a huge tax credit on fuel cells when they come out.

It isn't Bush that is phasing out the incentive. Its how the incentive was written. Its been around since 1992 (for clean technology vehicles). Most of these laws are written with phase-outs or end dates to keep the total cost down. At $1500 in 2004, if there are 50,000 hybrids sold that is $75 million in tax deductions for the buyers. Its starting to become an expensive subsidy as it is...

That said, hybrid cars are now at the point where the government shouldn't have to pay someone to drive one. They are a good enough value proposition that the government doesn't need to spend lots of money promoting them.