Actually they want 25-34 year old buyers, those are the trend-setters that will be buying cars for years to come, and influence the purchases of their parents, even.
They also want 16-24 year olds but those have no money. :-)
I've never heard of anyone ever having actually triggered the condition. But as a computer programmer myself, I clearly understand how important it is to continue testing code even after deployment.
So I'm pleased Toyota is taking the proactive approach. I'm also pleased that this SSC provides mechanics with first-hand experience using the upgrade process. That could open up opportunities later for non-essential upgrades, like Multi-Display enhancements.
Performance and handling are important to me, too, and I was in kindergarten when Eisenhower was leaving the White House. Shifting, I'm OK letting the car do that for me if it does it well. It's just that I'm more focused on levels of performance and handling that I need in the real world vs. on a test track.
As for the Honda Accord post, I guess it just proves that owning a Prius doesn't prevent someone from driving while intoxicated. ;-)
Hello again, The title is i response to juicy saying that teenagers cannot afford it. I have not made a post in a while. I now have 3,600 miles on my package#9 04' prius. Today i recieved a letter informing me that there is an error in the computer. So today i tried to take it in and the dealer said that they were to busy and i should come back another day. For some reason they dont like making appointments. I am now very upset with the dealer because my mother has a 04' benz and her seatbelts were recalled and she took it in the moment she got the letter and they gave her a mercedez rental an hour later. She got her car back the next morning. Unfortunatly i cant get a rental and the dealer said that they would drive me where I need to go but it may take hours because they only have one transport car. Overall, I could have spent upwards of 30G on a cheap benz and been treated properly but instead i have to put up with the idiots at TOYOTA OF FULLERTON. This is not the first thing that has upset me. They DO NOT treat me kindly at all. Just because i am a teenager they feel I do not deserve theretime or respect(service department). Anyways I feel better now that i have voiced my feelings. The car is awesome except the lack of motorized seats. Michael
Walk-Ins are rarely welcome anywhere, especially with work that takes an hour or so... and even more so when it requires updating their computers beforehand (this SSC does).
Make an appointment, then bring it in.
This update isn't vital, but you shouldn't put it off for months either. Do it in the next week or two, no big deal.
And you are quite right, some dealers are uncaring. Maybe you found one like that. Maybe you just caught them on a bad day.
Does Toyota have a 800 customer complaint line or better yet an email addresss to voice issues?
I hope they would be interested in how customers are being treated regardless of how busy the dealership is. Also they should also be notified if a dealship is giving them a BAD name.
Hi everybody, My gas gauge dropped down to 3 bars and then quickly dropped to one! So at 360 miles on the odo I filled the tank with 7.1 gals. It shut off automatically, I gave it one more and it kicked off again. That calculates to 50.7 mpg. Does that sound normal for a new break-in? Temps have been between 50-60 deg and a combo of city/fwy driving. Also when I drove away from the pump the gas gauge didn't register full until I got 50-60 yds away. All in all I'm very impressed and thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge, I'm learning so much about this car. I can fit my golf clubs/cart with no problems. Rich
I had the oil changed in my 2004 package 7 a week ago today and was told by the salesman that sold me my Prius that the 2004 Prius model run was soldout.
Prius sells for around 20 K, while Accord V6 (gas only version) sells for 24 K. The Accord Hybrid will surely come around 26 - 27 K.
May be you can compare Highlander Hybrid with the Accord. In all aspects Highlander with its height extra cargo capacity 3rd row seat option should be a better option.
If the Toyota dealers in your area did not serve well, then you can go for the Honda.
Ok, so I don't own a Prius - in fact, I drive a '04 Lexus LS430 and an '03 Chevy Tahoe - not exactly fuel/emission friendly vehicles (although I wouldn't consider the 430 excessive.)
In any case, I'm very interested in replacing my Tahoe with a 400H when they come out. I decided to take a look on here and see how people were doing.
JOHN - Your website is great and I really enjoyed perusing the photos and journal. You are really into your car!
I talked to my Toyota sales rep here in MA about the Prius. There is a 7 to 12 months wait. And it is MSRP only. The supplies are very limited if you look at the Toyota website.
Off topic. For the Lexus RX400h, the release is between December 2004 to January 2005. The Lexus of Watertown here is taking order with $500 refundable deposit. I would be 35th on the list if I want it.
I just did a inventory search and it says that there are 32 2004 Prius vehicles available in the Southeast. These range from right around $20k to over $27k. There is a partial VIN number also.
mfullmer - I grew up in El Sobrante. How'd you end up in Atlanta? Who leaves the Bay Area? Thanks (FYI others - CoCo county is Contra Costa county, 20 mi NE of San Francisco) Rich
For the same price range, more people are looking at Honda Civic hybrid with similar gas mileage. One local Honda dealer has 4 in stock compare to 7+ month wait for Toyota Prius.
For FULL hybrids like Prius, RX400h, and Highlander, the answer is NO... because the don't even have a transmission. They don't have any gears either. There's just a permanently engaged power-split device which is already optimized for maximum power.
In the MT COTY testing, the Prius out-stopped the Acura TL and TSX, Chevy Aveo and Malibu and Malibu Maxx, Ford Freestar Limited, Jaguar XJ8, Mitsu Galant GTS and Lancer Ralliart, Nissan Maxima SE and Quest SE, Pontiac Grand Prix GTP Comp, Scion xA and xB, Suzuki Verona EX, and Toyota Camry Solara SE and Sienna XLE. It out-hustled the Aveo, Freestar, Scion xB, and Verona. It out-slalomed the Malibu Maxx, Freestar, xB, and Sienna (came real close to the Malibu, XJ8, and Quest).
I've always heard that short trips are very hard on the exhaust system because the engine doesn't have enough time to warm up and burn off the caustic moisture that forms within the system. Since the engine in the Prius doesn't run all the time, will the moisture problem be even more pronounced when taking the same short trip?
Unlike traditional engines, the one specifically designed for Prius is optimized for rapid heat output. Without having done that, the PZEV emission rating would have been impossible using only a minimal amount of gas.
Prius also has that 3 liter thermal storage system for the coolant, keeping it hot overnight and warm for up to 3 days.
Moisture is burnt off rapidly, even with short trips.
Having a manual tranmission would decrease the performance. Human can not possible shift a manual gear faster than the computer change the voltage in ECVT. Human does not always shift to the best possible gear at a given time either. And then there is a term called, "human error".
___Not to rehash all of the numbers but Toyota’s UK web site shows a 0 - 60 time of 10.9 seconds but then shows 0 - 62 mph of 10.9 seconds in the spec page. I guess it takes a full 1.1 seconds to get from 60 to 62 mph by C&D’s measurements according to Toyota ;-)
___I thought I remembered reading Autoweek, Automobile, and/or Canadian Drivers 0 - 60 times were in the 10.2 - 10.6 second range as well but I could be wrong in that regard
___John1701a, I don’t think the PZEV rated Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Ford Focus, or Nissan Sentra used/uses a rapid heat output ICE design for their own respective PZEV ratings? It is the vapor containment that achieves the PZEV ratings. SULEV ratings are another story but the SULEV rated Honda Insight and HCH’s don’t have a rapid heat output design in terms of the bottle but the Insight in particular has its exhaust manifold built into the block itself if that is what you are speaking of?
That paragraph to me has 2 question-marks in it, yet you aren't actually asking anything.
I think your were simply pointing out that there are multiple methods of achieving low emissions and that the Prius design is completely unique. Was that your point?
> Unlike traditional engines, the one specifically designed for Prius is optimized for rapid heat > output. Without having done that, the PZEV emission rating would have been impossible using > only a minimal amount of gas.
___Now read my reply again. Do you really think the Prius without the thermos or any other rapid heat output engineering would have made it impossible to receive a PZEV emissions rating? Maybe Ford, Honda, and Nissan have better engineering then given it is not necessarily a design criteria for the PZEV rating? Does this help clear the cob webs?
___The only difference between the Atkinson and a std. OTTO ICE is the Intake valve stays open for a few milliseconds which allows the intake charge to back flow into the Intake manifold on the compression stroke. This has nothing to do with heat up nor does it help or hinder a PZEV rating. Its purpose is for an efficiency gain at the expense of torque, not to help or hinder an automobiles PZEV rating. Rapid heat output is not a part of the design criteria needed for a PZEV rating with an OTTO or Atkinson based design that I have read.
___The Bore and Stroke of the 01-03 Prius was 2.95 in. x 3.33 in./ 75.0 mm. x 84.7 mm. The Bore and Stroke of the 04 Prius is 2.95 in. x 3.33 in./ 75.0 mm. x 84.6 mm. What stroke difference were you speaking of between the Atkinson and Otto Based Prius’ again? There isn’t one.
___Why did you say it was impossible for the 04 Prius to achieve its PZEV rating without a rapid heat up design? That is not only misleading, it is incorrect.
From what I hear, the main problem with meeting demand for the Prius is that there is only one plant building them. They are currently working 24-7...what more can be done?
As for the mark-up over MSRP, dealers can charge what they want. Consumers don't have to buy. I agree with jrct9454's comments on supply and demand. As long as a dealer is up front with the price they are asking, what's the problem?
"Without having done that, the PZEV emission rating would have been impossible using only a minimal amount of gas".
The overlooked part has been emphasized to help clear up the misunderstanding. Also reducing consumption is the difference. Most PZEV simply don't bother, but Prius does.
___So it isn’t the Atkinson cycle, it isn’t the difference between the bore and stroke of the 01-03 Otto cycle Prius and the Atkinson based valve timing of the 04 Prius but it’s the rapid heat up with the minimal amount of fuel?
___Where do you dream up this stuff? PZEV ratings can be achieved with any number of automobiles with both smaller and larger engines, higher and lower efficiencies, and varying amounts of fuel quantity admitted to the combustion chambers.
Let's make the assumption that the more units they make, they can spread their R & D costs accordingly. I doubt the costs exceed the selling price! This way each unit is less based on the additional production. If they were losing money, it is quite doubtful they'd procure another factory to increase production. Bottom line is we'll never know. One thing is certain and that is Toyota's comittment to the hybrid technology. If it wasn't profitable for the Prius, why would they invest in the Lexus RX and Highlander? To lose more money?? A good investment would be in Panasonic since they are going to be producing TONS of batteries for the Toyota hybrid.
___If you are so tired of non-sense, quit spewing it. The Toyota Echo also uses a 1.5 L engine with the same 2.95 x 3.33 in. bore and stroke. It’s almost a simple intake valve timing change to make an Otto cycle an Atkinson. The engine tweaks including bore and stroke, enhanced heat up, different stroke, or any other weird idea you may have come up with do not achieve PZEV ratings, the vapor and regular emissions controls do and the enhanced heat up you spoke of is NOT NECESSARY for the PZEV rating.
___Hi Little_Pogi. So you think the enhanced heat up is necessary for a PZEV rating also? Maybe you can explain it away better then John1701a has tried to with his statements above?
My understanding of what john1701a said was that Prius achieves PZEV the most fuel efficient way. Wayne is trying to argue that thermal coolant storage isn't necessary to achieve PZEV. It could be possible but you will waste gas. Therefore, both John and Wayne are right. I hope that settles it.
SULEV: Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle SULEVs are 90% cleaner than the average new 2003 model year car.
PZEV: Partial Zero Emission Vehicle PZEVs meet SULEV tailpipe emission standards, have zero evaporative emissions and a 15 year / 150,000 mile warranty. No evaporative emissions means that they have fewer emissions while being driven than a typical gasoline car has while just sitting.
AT PZEV: Advanced Technology PZEVs AT PZEVs meet the PZEV requirements and have additional "ZEV-like" characteristics. A dedicated compressed natural gas vehicle, or a hybrid vehicle with engine emissions that meet the PZEV standards would be an AT PZEV.
___No pre-heat type systems need to be employed nor any particular engine efficiency needs to be met for any PZEV requirement that I know of
I read those links and I am surprise to find 27 PZEV 2004 cars. PZEV on traditional car costs about $100 extra and adds weight. I believe it also reduces horse power. I wonder if catalysts are easily recyclable though.
They work differently from Prius. The approach is the "garbage collection" technique. Prius attacks emission problem from the cause. Chinese medicine rather than most Western medicine, as they say (Figurative speech).
___Make sure you read up on the 04 Ford Focus PZEV’s in particular Less weight, more HP, and a cleaner burning setup. The Atkinson cycle doesn’t necessarily give you a cleaner burn off the exhaust manifold and this is just to meet the SULEV std. The PZEV rating is any SULEV with extremely low vapor emissions (3 different temperature related vapor tests that I have read) and the lengthy emission related HW warranty is all.
> Make sure you read up on the 04 Ford Focus PZEV’s in particular Less weight, more HP, and a cleaner burning setup.
I read that too. It sounds nice but my quick research reveals a PR hype. They were comparing classic Focus 2.0L engine with the new 2.4L engine. Sure, it has more HP but the engine is less efficient. 2.0L - 69.4 HP/L 67.6 ft-lbs/L 2.4L - 64.3 HP/L 66.1 ft-lbs/L
Horse power was hit with 8% reduction due to PZEV. Engine weight reduction can be achieved by the use of Aluminum, etc... It just shows how much the original 2.0L engine needs improvements.
___I am not sure where you are headed with this but any number of cars can have the same be said about them. The key is that the new Ford engine is more powerful, lighter, and has less NVH then its predecessor and is available in a PZEV format with the Vapor emission HW and warranty as well as the Advanced CAT(s). The same can be said of the 04 Prius’ ICE although I do not know if it is any lighter then the original Prius/Echo engine from which it was derived? PZEV ratings are simply HQ vapor emission HW and the lengthy warranty attached to a SULEV rated automobile.
PZEV based 04 Toyota Prius 1.5 L: 76 HP/82 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 50.66 HP/L * 54.66 Ft-Lb’s/L LEV based 04 Toyota Echo 1.5 L: 108 HP/105 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 72 HP/L * 70 Ft-Lb’s/L PZEV based 04 Ford Focus 2.3 L: 144 HP/149 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 62.6 HP/L * 64.72 Ft-Lb’s/L LEV based 04 Ford Focus 2.0 L: 130 HP/135 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 65 HP/L * 67.5 Ft-Lb’s/L
___And as usual, the non-informed come out of the wood word for personal attacks. Djasnow and Little_Pogi, do you qualify with your eye for a lack of details and your non-educated running commentary? Maybe you can post your own mileages as of late or how about why your automobiles are PZEV’s?
If you dive a Fix Or Repair Daily...then you don't need to worry about emmissions...since the vehicle is always in the shop!!! Thats why Toyota has the advantage...its the one thats DRIVEN.
___You were wrong about the stroke, you were wrong about the Fast heat up, and you were wrong about the Atkinson being needed for a PZEV rating. Just because you post what you don’t know doesn’t make it correct and many here should take heed or they will be just as ignorant.
___You post quite a bit that is right on and then a few little tid-bits that are out and out falsehoods. With that, I can’t believe you know yourself what you post about sometimes. Remember your reference on 50% more efficient? Remember your info on density in colder temperatures being a big culprit of poor mileage? Hook up an OBD-II to your Prius sometime across a range of temperatures and then you can find out what is really going on inside our ICE’s instead of spreading non-sense.
___M4eth, Fords are never driven because they are always in the shop? Have you never seen a Focus, Taurus, Mustang, Crown Vic, Ranger, Explorer, F150, Expedition, or Excursion on the road then? This forum is really out of balance with the real world with falsehoods like this being spread apparently?
They are currently working 24-7...what more can be done?
One thing they can do is use other factories. I saw a recent article from a Japanese auto industry trade paper (can't find link now) that quoted a Toyota spokesperson saying that they are considering producing the Prius in the U.S. because annual sales (now 47,000, but limited by production) are very near the 50,000 break-even point for producing the car in the U.S.
A number of posts were removed from the last 30 or so entered. Just so we are clear on a few things:
-no personal attacks, agree to disagree -This discussion is about the Prius 2004; alternate hybrid design issues, etc. belong in the Up to the Chore discussion over in News & Views
PZEV based 04 Ford Focus 2.3 L: 144 HP/149 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 62.6 HP/L * 64.72 Ft-Lb’s/L LEV based 04 Ford Focus 2.0 L: 130 HP/135 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 65 HP/L * 67.5 Ft-Lb’s/L
Both use Otto cycle. My original post had a mistake. Ford Focus PZEV has 2.3L, not 2.4L. Still, PZEV Focus took 3.8% HP and 4.3% ft-lb/L reduction.
PZEV based 04 Toyota Prius 1.5 L: 76 HP/82 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 50.66 HP/L * 54.66 Ft-Lb’s/L LEV based 04 Toyota Echo 1.5 L: 108 HP/105 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 72 HP/L * 70 Ft-Lb’s/L
Prius uses Akinson cycle while Echo uses Otto cycle. You are comparing an apple to an orange. BTW, you know that Echo engine has 10% higher HP and 3.7% ft-lb/L than classic Ford Focus right?
The good news is the source for the story is the president of Toyota Motor Corp. The bad news is that the article states that it would be 2006 before local production begins in the U.S.
Comments
They also want 16-24 year olds but those have no money. :-)
-juice
I've never heard of anyone ever having actually triggered the condition. But as a computer programmer myself, I clearly understand how important it is to continue testing code even after deployment.
So I'm pleased Toyota is taking the proactive approach. I'm also pleased that this SSC provides mechanics with first-hand experience using the upgrade process. That could open up opportunities later for non-essential upgrades, like Multi-Display enhancements.
JOHN
As for the Honda Accord post, I guess it just proves that owning a Prius doesn't prevent someone from driving while intoxicated. ;-)
Have you ordered your Prius yet, midnight?
The title is i response to juicy saying that teenagers cannot afford it.
I have not made a post in a while. I now have 3,600 miles on my package#9 04' prius. Today i recieved a letter informing me that there is an error in the computer.
So today i tried to take it in and the dealer said that they were to busy and i should come back another day. For some reason they dont like making appointments. I am now very upset with the dealer because my mother has a 04' benz and her seatbelts were recalled and she took it in the moment she got the letter and they gave her a mercedez rental an hour later. She got her car back the next morning. Unfortunatly i cant get a rental and the dealer said that they would drive me where I need to go but it may take hours because they only have one transport car.
Overall, I could have spent upwards of 30G on a cheap benz and been treated properly but instead i have to put up with the idiots at TOYOTA OF FULLERTON. This is not the first thing that has upset me. They DO NOT treat me kindly at all. Just because i am a teenager they feel I do not deserve theretime or respect(service department).
Anyways I feel better now that i have voiced my feelings.
The car is awesome except the lack of motorized seats.
Michael
Make an appointment, then bring it in.
This update isn't vital, but you shouldn't put it off for months either. Do it in the next week or two, no big deal.
And you are quite right, some dealers are uncaring. Maybe you found one like that. Maybe you just caught them on a bad day.
JOHN
I hope they would be interested in how customers are being treated regardless of how busy the dealership is. Also they should also be notified if a dealship is giving them a BAD name.
Mike
-juice
My gas gauge dropped down to 3 bars and then quickly dropped to one! So at 360 miles on the odo I filled the tank with 7.1 gals. It shut off automatically, I gave it one more and it kicked off again. That calculates to 50.7 mpg. Does that sound normal for a new break-in? Temps have been between 50-60 deg and a combo of city/fwy driving. Also when I drove away from the pump the gas gauge didn't register full until I got 50-60 yds away. All in all I'm very impressed and thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge, I'm learning so much about this car. I can fit my golf clubs/cart with no problems.
Rich
What does that mean?
JOHN
http://www.toyota.com/about/contact/index.html
1-800-GO-TOYOTA
Performance: the manner in which a mechanism performs <engine~>
Aspect: a particular status or phase in which something appears or may be regarded"
...and we all know what the definition and meaning of "it" is as a President once said?
Prius sells for around 20 K, while Accord V6 (gas only version) sells for 24 K. The Accord Hybrid will surely come around 26 - 27 K.
May be you can compare Highlander Hybrid with the Accord.
In all aspects Highlander with its
height
extra cargo capacity
3rd row seat option
should be a better option.
If the Toyota dealers in your area did not serve well, then you can go for the Honda.
Congrats on your new Prius. I grew up and lived in Orinda until 1998 - sure do miss CoCo County.
In any case, I'm very interested in replacing my Tahoe with a 400H when they come out. I decided to take a look on here and see how people were doing.
JOHN - Your website is great and I really enjoyed perusing the photos and journal. You are really into your car!
Off topic. For the Lexus RX400h, the release is between December 2004 to January 2005. The Lexus of Watertown here is taking order with $500 refundable deposit. I would be 35th on the list if I want it.
?????????
Thanks (FYI others - CoCo county is Contra Costa county, 20 mi NE of San Francisco)
Rich
For FULL hybrids like Prius, RX400h, and Highlander, the answer is NO... because the don't even have a transmission. They don't have any gears either. There's just a permanently engaged power-split device which is already optimized for maximum power.
JOHN
0-60: 9.8 seconds
60-0: 125 feet
600-ft slalom: 58.6 mph (electronically limited)
In the MT COTY testing, the Prius out-stopped the Acura TL and TSX, Chevy Aveo and Malibu and Malibu Maxx, Ford Freestar Limited, Jaguar XJ8, Mitsu Galant GTS and Lancer Ralliart, Nissan Maxima SE and Quest SE, Pontiac Grand Prix GTP Comp, Scion xA and xB, Suzuki Verona EX, and Toyota Camry Solara SE and Sienna XLE. It out-hustled the Aveo, Freestar, Scion xB, and Verona. It out-slalomed the Malibu Maxx, Freestar, xB, and Sienna (came real close to the Malibu, XJ8, and Quest).
Prius also has that 3 liter thermal storage system for the coolant, keeping it hot overnight and warm for up to 3 days.
Moisture is burnt off rapidly, even with short trips.
JOHN
Dennis
___Not to rehash all of the numbers but Toyota’s UK web site shows a 0 - 60 time of 10.9 seconds but then shows 0 - 62 mph of 10.9 seconds in the spec page. I guess it takes a full 1.1 seconds to get from 60 to 62 mph by C&D’s measurements according to Toyota ;-)
http://www.toyota.co.uk/cgi-bin/toyota/bv/frame_start.jsp?id=home- page and
http://www.toyota.co.uk/cgi-bin/toyota/bv/frame_start.jsp?id=home- page
___I thought I remembered reading Autoweek, Automobile, and/or Canadian Drivers 0 - 60 times were in the 10.2 - 10.6 second range as well but I could be wrong in that regard
___John1701a, I don’t think the PZEV rated Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Ford Focus, or Nissan Sentra used/uses a rapid heat output ICE design for their own respective PZEV ratings? It is the vapor containment that achieves the PZEV ratings. SULEV ratings are another story but the SULEV rated Honda Insight and HCH’s don’t have a rapid heat output design in terms of the bottle but the Insight in particular has its exhaust manifold built into the block itself if that is what you are speaking of?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
That paragraph to me has 2 question-marks in it, yet you aren't actually asking anything.
I think your were simply pointing out that there are multiple methods of achieving low emissions and that the Prius design is completely unique. Was that your point?
JOHN
John1701a said:
> Unlike traditional engines, the one specifically designed for Prius is optimized for rapid heat
> output. Without having done that, the PZEV emission rating would have been impossible using
> only a minimal amount of gas.
___Now read my reply again. Do you really think the Prius without the thermos or any other rapid heat output engineering would have made it impossible to receive a PZEV emissions rating? Maybe Ford, Honda, and Nissan have better engineering then given it is not necessarily a design criteria for the PZEV rating? Does this help clear the cob webs?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Sorry, the Atkinson design of the engine makes it too different for direct comparison. Apples to Oranges.
JOHN
___The only difference between the Atkinson and a std. OTTO ICE is the Intake valve stays open for a few milliseconds which allows the intake charge to back flow into the Intake manifold on the compression stroke. This has nothing to do with heat up nor does it help or hinder a PZEV rating. Its purpose is for an efficiency gain at the expense of torque, not to help or hinder an automobiles PZEV rating. Rapid heat output is not a part of the design criteria needed for a PZEV rating with an OTTO or Atkinson based design that I have read.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
There's a stroking difference (besides the physical shaft difference) which alters the output. And that's the very thing the topic wandered off to.
The proper topic is "Toyota Prius 2004+", not alternate design concepts.
JOHN
___The Bore and Stroke of the 01-03 Prius was 2.95 in. x 3.33 in./ 75.0 mm. x 84.7 mm. The Bore and Stroke of the 04 Prius is 2.95 in. x 3.33 in./ 75.0 mm. x 84.6 mm. What stroke difference were you speaking of between the Atkinson and Otto Based Prius’ again? There isn’t one.
___Why did you say it was impossible for the 04 Prius to achieve its PZEV rating without a rapid heat up design? That is not only misleading, it is incorrect.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
As for the mark-up over MSRP, dealers can charge what they want. Consumers don't have to buy. I agree with jrct9454's comments on supply and demand. As long as a dealer is up front with the price they are asking, what's the problem?
Here is the same quote, again:
"Without having done that, the PZEV emission rating would have been impossible using only a minimal amount of gas".
The overlooked part has been emphasized to help clear up the misunderstanding. Also reducing consumption is the difference. Most PZEV simply don't bother, but Prius does.
JOHN
___So it isn’t the Atkinson cycle, it isn’t the difference between the bore and stroke of the 01-03 Otto cycle Prius and the Atkinson based valve timing of the 04 Prius but it’s the rapid heat up with the minimal amount of fuel?
___Where do you dream up this stuff? PZEV ratings can be achieved with any number of automobiles with both smaller and larger engines, higher and lower efficiencies, and varying amounts of fuel quantity admitted to the combustion chambers.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___If you are so tired of non-sense, quit spewing it. The Toyota Echo also uses a 1.5 L engine with the same 2.95 x 3.33 in. bore and stroke. It’s almost a simple intake valve timing change to make an Otto cycle an Atkinson. The engine tweaks including bore and stroke, enhanced heat up, different stroke, or any other weird idea you may have come up with do not achieve PZEV ratings, the vapor and regular emissions controls do and the enhanced heat up you spoke of is NOT NECESSARY for the PZEV rating.
___Hi Little_Pogi. So you think the enhanced heat up is necessary for a PZEV rating also? Maybe you can explain it away better then John1701a has tried to with his statements above?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Dennis
___Close
http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,60819-2,00.html?tw=wn_s- tory_page_next1
http://www.zevinfo.com/en/gv/vsearch/cleansearch_result.asp?vehic- letypeid=16
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/factsheets/cleanices_fs.pdf
SULEV: Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle
SULEVs are 90% cleaner than the average new 2003 model year car.
PZEV: Partial Zero Emission Vehicle
PZEVs meet SULEV tailpipe emission standards, have zero evaporative emissions and a 15 year / 150,000 mile warranty. No evaporative emissions means that they have fewer emissions while being driven than a typical gasoline car has while just sitting.
AT PZEV: Advanced Technology PZEVs
AT PZEVs meet the PZEV requirements and have additional "ZEV-like" characteristics. A dedicated compressed natural gas vehicle, or a hybrid vehicle with engine emissions that meet the PZEV standards would be an AT PZEV.
___No pre-heat type systems need to be employed nor any particular engine efficiency needs to be met for any PZEV requirement that I know of
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
They work differently from Prius. The approach is the "garbage collection" technique. Prius attacks emission problem from the cause. Chinese medicine rather than most Western medicine, as they say (Figurative speech).
Dennis
___Make sure you read up on the 04 Ford Focus PZEV’s in particular Less weight, more HP, and a cleaner burning setup. The Atkinson cycle doesn’t necessarily give you a cleaner burn off the exhaust manifold and this is just to meet the SULEV std. The PZEV rating is any SULEV with extremely low vapor emissions (3 different temperature related vapor tests that I have read) and the lengthy emission related HW warranty is all.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
> Make sure you read up on the 04 Ford Focus PZEV’s in particular Less weight, more HP, and a cleaner burning setup.
I read that too. It sounds nice but my quick research reveals a PR hype.
They were comparing classic Focus 2.0L engine with the new 2.4L engine. Sure, it has more HP but the engine is less efficient.
2.0L - 69.4 HP/L 67.6 ft-lbs/L
2.4L - 64.3 HP/L 66.1 ft-lbs/L
Horse power was hit with 8% reduction due to PZEV. Engine weight reduction can be achieved by the use of Aluminum, etc... It just shows how much the original 2.0L engine needs improvements.
This might be off topic for Prius forum.
___I am not sure where you are headed with this but any number of cars can have the same be said about them. The key is that the new Ford engine is more powerful, lighter, and has less NVH then its predecessor and is available in a PZEV format with the Vapor emission HW and warranty as well as the Advanced CAT(s). The same can be said of the 04 Prius’ ICE although I do not know if it is any lighter then the original Prius/Echo engine from which it was derived? PZEV ratings are simply HQ vapor emission HW and the lengthy warranty attached to a SULEV rated automobile.
PZEV based 04 Toyota Prius 1.5 L: 76 HP/82 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 50.66 HP/L * 54.66 Ft-Lb’s/L
LEV based 04 Toyota Echo 1.5 L: 108 HP/105 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 72 HP/L * 70 Ft-Lb’s/L
PZEV based 04 Ford Focus 2.3 L: 144 HP/149 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 62.6 HP/L * 64.72 Ft-Lb’s/L
LEV based 04 Ford Focus 2.0 L: 130 HP/135 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 65 HP/L * 67.5 Ft-Lb’s/L
___And as usual, the non-informed come out of the wood word for personal attacks. Djasnow and Little_Pogi, do you qualify with your eye for a lack of details and your non-educated running commentary? Maybe you can post your own mileages as of late or how about why your automobiles are PZEV’s?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Mike
___You were wrong about the stroke, you were wrong about the Fast heat up, and you were wrong about the Atkinson being needed for a PZEV rating. Just because you post what you don’t know doesn’t make it correct and many here should take heed or they will be just as ignorant.
___You post quite a bit that is right on and then a few little tid-bits that are out and out falsehoods. With that, I can’t believe you know yourself what you post about sometimes. Remember your reference on 50% more efficient? Remember your info on density in colder temperatures being a big culprit of poor mileage? Hook up an OBD-II to your Prius sometime across a range of temperatures and then you can find out what is really going on inside our ICE’s instead of spreading non-sense.
___M4eth, Fords are never driven because they are always in the shop? Have you never seen a Focus, Taurus, Mustang, Crown Vic, Ranger, Explorer, F150, Expedition, or Excursion on the road then? This forum is really out of balance with the real world with falsehoods like this being spread apparently?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
One thing they can do is use other factories. I saw a recent article from a Japanese auto industry trade paper (can't find link now) that quoted a Toyota spokesperson saying that they are considering producing the Prius in the U.S. because annual sales (now 47,000, but limited by production) are very near the 50,000 break-even point for producing the car in the U.S.
-no personal attacks, agree to disagree
-This discussion is about the Prius 2004; alternate hybrid design issues, etc. belong in the Up to the Chore discussion over in News & Views
PZEV based 04 Ford Focus 2.3 L: 144 HP/149 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 62.6 HP/L * 64.72 Ft-Lb’s/L
LEV based 04 Ford Focus 2.0 L: 130 HP/135 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 65 HP/L * 67.5 Ft-Lb’s/L
Both use Otto cycle. My original post had a mistake. Ford Focus PZEV has 2.3L, not 2.4L. Still, PZEV Focus took 3.8% HP and 4.3% ft-lb/L reduction.
PZEV based 04 Toyota Prius 1.5 L: 76 HP/82 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 50.66 HP/L * 54.66 Ft-Lb’s/L
LEV based 04 Toyota Echo 1.5 L: 108 HP/105 Ft.-Lb’s of Torque = 72 HP/L * 70 Ft-Lb’s/L
Prius uses Akinson cycle while Echo uses Otto cycle. You are comparing an apple to an orange.
BTW, you know that Echo engine has 10% higher HP and 3.7% ft-lb/L than classic Ford Focus right?
Not bad...better than my Dad's Corolla which gets in the high 20's low 30's, with No stability, ABS, side curtains etc etc.....
___Good Luck
____ Djasonw
___ LOL....
http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=3&id=288360
The good news is the source for the story is the president of Toyota Motor Corp. The bad news is that the article states that it would be 2006 before local production begins in the U.S.