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Comments
Keep in mind that the phone itself still works while inside the Prius.
So you can dial from the phone and have the Bluetooth connection automatically take over the moment dialing completes.
So you aren't losing anything, just gaining the hand-free ability and the interface through the Multi-Display.
JOHN
Did it cross your mind that the money could be used to beef up production?
Most waiting for delivery will be more than happy to contribute to the cause if it ultimately results in inventory improvements.
JOHN
But the current Prius battery is under warranty for 8 years or 100,000 miles and uses individual replacement cells so only the defective cells not the entire battery would need to be replaced or refreshed.
The battery is the weak link and unknown cost in the system...especially after the 8 yrs or 100,000 miles. I'm not sure if Toyota offers an extended warranty on the battery alone???
Mike
Neither does NiMH. The real improvement with those new Lithium batteries is that they don't SELF-discharge anymore. (Having to routinely deal with a dead battery in my notebook in the past was really a pain.)
> In 8 years the NiMHs may be considered obsolete
LiPO is an unlikely candidate for replacement. Yes, the power specs look really appealing. But then when you step back and look at the charging cycles available, you see the problem. They are only 1/20 that of NiMH. So the battery-pack we have now will dramatically outlast it.
> or the costs may continue to drop because of a newer technology
That seems the most likely. Suppliers have a golden opportunity. A whole new market is opening up for them. Rather than building tiny batteries for mobile devices, they can build considerably bigger ones for use in vehicles. Everyone wins in that scenario.
JOHN
Thanks!
The LiPo technology does loose some charge over time (self-discharge under no load) but much much less than NiMH technologies.
Mike
2004 Prius has a 1.31 kilowatts/hour battery (About 504 AA 2100 mah nimh rechargables). Therefore, it could of been manufactured at a cost of $360 four years ago. It costs much less than those numbers going around.
Dennis
NYCLP4
see article below that mentions $4000 replacement costs:
http://www.motorists.com/ericpeters/hybridprosandcons.html
Mike
As for panasonic (japanese) Nimh battery that is in Prius, I can only guess the cost. On top of that, we do not know how much mark-up Toyota is going to charge. Prius battery is a bit different from AA rechargables you and I can buy. I believe it is tuned for hybrids car load.
The price I posted are from one of the leading manufacture, Onovic (American), 20,000+ mass produced, 4 years ago. Advancements were from the result of the government funds that went into EV1. I do not think japanese are behind after 4 years.
Today, we can get a AA 2100 mah Nimh battery for $1 each. So, $500 might be a more reasonable comparison, ignoring the differences with hybrid car battery. The only conclusion I can draw is that, it won't cost Panasonic/Toyota more than $350 to produce a Prius battery. Prius is mass producing 40,000+ (more?) already. The price should be even lower.
Dennis
The power-density is 35% higher than the Classic Prius had, which was supposedly higher than the typical NiMH. Needless to say, they provide decent kick. And I'm not sure how that translate to $$$.
> 20,000+ mass produced, 4 years ago
250,000 Prius will be on the road worldwide by the end of the 2004 model year.
JOHN
Mike
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/toyota/prius/100326481/roadtestar- ticle.html?articleId=101393&tid=edmunds.h..reviews.roadtests.- 2.*
-juice
Thanks - David
> or is that only achievable if you really pamper it?
If you mean SLOW acceleration when you say "baby the car", then you are the victim of a very common misconception.
BRISK acceleration is the key.
By being generous with the pedal, you use the engine at a more efficient state. I'm almost always the leader in the pack when the light turns green. Lately, that has been providing a MPG right around 50. The trick is to be generous with the pedal without actually jack-rabbit accelerating. In short, faster than you'd think.
JOHN
The article compared the Prius to a washing machine. The difference is, the Prius figures out automatically how many socks should be loaded before the washer starts.
Thanks - David
I have a question. My gas gauge currently has 3 bars left with only 260 miles on this tank. When I filled up the pump clicked off and I gave it one more shot. The fuel gauge showed all bars full. But I'm surprised how fast the gas guage dropped. I keep a log book to record all vehicle info so I'll compute mpg from my recorded odo listings. So far in 700 miles of driving I've recorded 50.7 and 46.8 mpg. I'm not disappointed at all, just curious. How far down should I reasonably let the gas guage drop before refilling? I prefer not to run on fumes.
Thanks
Rich
You'll see how the middle mark isn't really half. You'll also discover that waiting until the last block on the gauge begins to flash is an appropriate practice.
For me, I continue my commute and fill the tank on the way home. That works out to about 20-30 miles beyond when the flashing started.
9 gallons of capacity is what you can expect for non-emergency maximum range. That matches up to this distance based on the miles shown on the Multi-Display (which is reset everyone time you add gas):
40 MPG = 360 miles
41 MPG = 369 miles
42 MPG = 378 miles
43 MPG = 387 miles
44 MPG = 396 miles
45 MPG = 405 miles
46 MPG = 414 miles
47 MPG = 423 miles
48 MPG = 432 miles
49 MPG = 441 miles
50 MPG = 450 miles
51 MPG = 459 miles
52 MPG = 468 miles
53 MPG = 477 miles
54 MPG = 486 miles
55 MPG = 495 miles
Thanks John
Rich
Seems to me that if you happen to fuel up and the batteries have just previous been "filled", topped up, using the ICE (maybe exclusively), then the calculated MPG will be artifically LOW.
> the fuel being used to charge the batteries?
That's easy.
It's just distance divided by injections of gas.
Neither is a precise measurement though, since revolutions of a tire and the amount of gas are only approximations. And of course, when you are counting hundreds of thousands of them, the margin of error is amplified.
The draining & charging of the battery-pack makes no difference. Distance & Injections are still accounted for during those times (which is very, very frequent).
JOHN
The fuel injected calculation doesn't account for the mileage stored in the batteries that you already "paid" (burned fuel to charge) for but haven't yet actually driven.
It's likely that over maybe ten fuel refills things would average out correctly with onboard MPG calculation and by hand.
Didn't someone just state that you could drive maybe 45 miles on a "full" battery and an empty fuel tank.
How do you caculate MPG in that case??
Distance divided by number of gallons....
Does 45 divided by 0 = infinity??
MPG(Prius) = Miles Driven / (Gallons of Gas Consumed by ICE minus the Regenerative Gallons Equivalent Output from Battery)
So the Regenerative Gallons Equivalent is the recovered energy from the HSD system converted from Watts of electrical energy to gallons of gas. Notice that in conventional ICE this additional term does not exist...since traditional ICE systems never recover the lost energy like HSD.
Thanks
Rich
You Travel X miles, it takes X gallons.
That is the Cost per Mile in Gallons, however the Gallons are allocated by the various ECUs.
Whether the ICE uses them to power the wheels, run the motor, or charge the battery is irrelevant.
I hope it comes real soon! Gas has been way too cheap and the low price just encourages consumption and waste (not to mention a host of other socio-economic problems).
Not only does the Prius get high gas mileage (I consistently get 55mpg combined), but it also kicks out less pollution. I don't believe the same feat can be accomplished by any diesel on the market. Too often people forget to add in the true costs of owning a vehicle --the environmental costs we sadly all end up paying.
Only the top mechanics were trained to service Prius. Therefore Prius owners will get the service from the brightest mechanics. As for the dollar per mile cost, have you thought about the emission standard in the future? What happens if your diesel car can not pass the emission test?
"I get consistent 48-50 mpg city and up to 59 mpg hwy. What hybrid can do that?"
Honda Insight can get better mpg than that. There are Prius owners who are averaging 58 mpg. For a two seater car that gives up on performance and room, 59 mpg highway is not impressive. Also, to achieve 48-50mpg in the city, you also have to do manual labor shifting gears. How fast is your beetle from 0-60 mph? How about 30-50 mph?
"We do it with one of the simplest engines invented by man?"
Then you must be looking forward to the next logical evolutional step, diesel electric hybrids. If Hybrid Synergy Drive is applied to diesel, it'll simplify the whole car mechanically and can get you even more mpg. Hybrid Synergy Drive simplifies the whole car by removing the need for a mechanical transmission, starter, alternator, clutch, torque converter(for automatics), etc.
"Close to 80% of all cars in Europe sold today are Diesels."
Close to 95% of all the cars in US sold today are gasoline. BTW, which country do you live in?
Dennis
I too am looking forward to $4.00/gallon gas. Unfortunately it will definitely hurt our economy as it will definitely have a ripple effect in the domestic auto industry. Who is going to buy those THIRSTY gas hogging SUV's????
I recently took 2 trips of just under 20 miles one way and got an avg. of 52.5 MPG. This included 70% suburban/30% highway driving in 50 degree temperature with 3 people in the car.
Is that the simple, computer controlled 30,000 PSI Common Rail Injection system? Or are you talking about the simple Emissions Controls that will have to be added to Diesels for them to survive into the next decade.
I'm glad that both of those are simple enough that you can drive up to any guy lounging under a shade tree and have him fix you up.
And when you talk about gas mileage in the U.S., be sure that you are talking about Automatics. Americans don't buy sticks.
Bottom line is, the days of ANY simple automobile systems are numbered and Diesels are no different. Without the right Computer Tools and Programs, no one is going to be able to fix a car within a half dozen years or so.
Time for another one of those coffee shop gatherings.
This one will be in the southern part of the Twin Cities, at the STARBUCKS on the corner of 494 & Penn Ave. For those of you with a Navigation System, the address is:
7805 Southtown Center
Bloomington, Minnesota
Hope to see you there.
JOHN
Thanks,
Mike
Actually, maintenance concerns get amplified grossly out of proportion online. People are significantly more prone to post a negative than a positive. (That's a well proven fact when it comes to the programming profession. Feedback about software is almost exclusively negative.) So you really don't get a true picture of what the real story is online. But at gatherings you do!
Gatherings offer opportunities for personal, off the record, thorough, immediate, verbal feedback. That's quite different from any message forums you'll ever encounter, a huge perspective change. So that's why I routinely hold them.
And over the past 3 years, I've discovered that hybrid reliability is much higher than the impression you get online.
Another thing I've discovered online is that some people intentionally deceive, certain forum types make it very easy. It's much harder to do that at a gathering.
JOHN
If we could (would) build more nuclear power plants, we could power elecrtic cars for about $0.01/mile. Note that battery costs are comming down steadily. Contrary to popular belief, nuclear power is safe. Its the coal powered plants that cause acid rain, largest part of global warming, the most pollution, and acutally put more radioactive particles in the air than a nuclear power plant per kilowatt -- as long as there is not an accident. However, we in America seem not to do a very good job, say as well as the French, at running safe nuclear plants.
As for hydrogen power, to make the hydrogen will take a lot of coal in the process of making hydrogen. The way to do it is with nuclear.
But until low sulfer fuel and the technology to clean it up before it gets out of the tail pipe (some are hoping for a catiliitic converter breakthrough for deisel in the next few years), or Americans learn how to do a nuclear power program as well as the French, hybrids are the best solution.
P.S. Anyone tried pulling the fuse on their Prius day-time running lights to see how much difference it makes in mileage? (Perhaps the US government should consider not requiring hybrids to have day-time running lihgts is they are white, yellow or silver in color.)
What does a 3 Mile Island or Chernobyl do to those calculations?
If you want to discuss alternative fuels, please start a discussion with such a title in News & Views.
Thanks....
http://www.calendarlive.com/movies/cl-et-gold9mar09,2,6977678.sto- ry
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