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Comments
Prius is just a fad. After all how many of us give a damn about pollution. We are much better of than some third world countries. They should be driving prius not us.
Infact, before reigning in the SUVs why not ban those snowmobiles and boats with two stroke engines which spill huge amounts of oil in national parks, ski areas, coastal waters and canals.
I can tell you don't live in California - the cheap gas stations near me are selling regular at $2.07 and that is cheaper than what they charge in Los Angeles. I heard a report on the radio a couple of days ago that said gas in Baker, California was going for $2.69. It's been like that for weeks now.
Living in denial, eh?
It is over that now. And it was last year too.
> Prius is just a fad
You have missed the point entirely.
It is the TECHNOLOGY, not the VEHICLE.
HSD (Hybrid Synergy Drive) will be available in all passenger vehicles Toyota offers by 2010.
> why not ban those snowmobiles
They were. The Bush administration decided it wasn't important and recinded that regulation.
The ironic thing is the new, cleaner snowmobiles were actually more powerful than the dirty ones. For proof, just look at what happened to the jet-ski market. The Bush administration didn't have an opportunity to screw that up. As a result, the vehicles are bigger, cleaner, more efficient, and more powerful. All manufacturers did was replace the specicialized engine with a small car engine, which was larger than what they had been using.
JOHN
Thanks
However, the price of gas, politics, etc. are not. Those posts belong in News & Views.
* increased range
* HOV lane access in states like VA
* no sales tax in states like MD
* peak torque at idle
* less noise at low speeds
So when you blow by that Dodge Viper stuck in traffic while you're in the HOV lane, make sure to wave.
-juice
Granted, the gas mileage is the really big plus, and why this truck person is considering one - getting one could make it possible for me to continue to play with my 4x4 on weekends and snowy days.
March 15th (less than 3 weeks later) the dealer calls. One came off the truck with pkg 8, that someone ordered but now didn't want. None of the 35+ people in front of us had ordered that option pkg, so we were first in line. I had wanted red, it was blue, but I said yes, and we absolutely love this car in the week that we've had it. The GPS is way cool, even for a 50-yr old geek like me.
We paid MSRP, less a $50 discount that the salesman gave us. Can't complain - we know that these are going at MSRP. For the price, this car is loaded with features (over and above the hybrid). It's roomy, peppy, looks good, etc.
Thanks
I have been faithfully reading the posts over the past month or so and doing other research. I guess that Toyota is doubling production beginning April 1. I am told I could have my car in 4-6 weeks. Two things still bother me though:
1 - It looks like most people average 40 mpg overall, although some actually achieve 50 mpg or better. I am planning to inflate the tires to 42/40 and hopefully get 45+ overall. I would be greatly disappointed to get "only" 40.
2 - There seems to be a large number of complaints over the gas bladder - and I guess Toyota is "working on the problem." Many people report gas spills and that the gauge bares no resemblance to reality. Should I wait for a 2005? Is this a problem that really is going to be fixed?
Thanks
Mileage will vary and I average now around 46-47. I knew full well that I would never achive 55 highway. I just came back from a 360 mile round trip to Delaware and achieved 43 MPG going an average of 80 on the interstates. Can't beat that!!
Over the past two months here in Minnesota, MPG has climbed from low 40's to 50. And it is still fairly cold here!
I can't wait until the shift from late Winter to Spring finally finishes. At that point, MPG should be on par with those the warm weather reports: mid 50's!
JOHN
...I know that air density increases with a decrease in temp...thus air drag will increase for any vehicle in cold climates.
..I also know the fuel formulations for winter is changed to help cold weather starting/gas line freeze.
..however it would seem that the Prius would have the advantage in cold weather over conventional ICE especially at LOWER SPEEDS (city driving) where the electric motor runs more often and thus should achieve better MPG (more regeneration) over just ICE...so the variations between MPG winter and summer in Prius CITY driving should be less regardless of temperature???
But for HIGH SPEED driving (less regeneration) where air drag increases with the square of the velocity and ICE operation is increased... the MPG variations between Winter and Summer should be more apparent because of both air drag and fuel formuations in Winter.
So I can see the HIGH SPEED low Temperature effect...but the LOW SPEED low temperature effect does not make sense.
The previous Prius had the same problem with the engine driven A/C compressor, engine doesn't run, no cooling. The new version uses an electrically driven A/C compressor.
And since Toyota and Lexus use the A/C's dehumidification capability, EXCLUSIVELY, for defogging the windshield and keeping it defogged the A/C compressor MUST run in defrost/defog/demist mode.
You may be able to have the dealer unlink the A/C from the defrost/defog/demist mode but then you must remember to turn the airflow heat up anytime you use this function.
My 01 AWD RX300 had options under C-best to unlink the A/C under both modes, automatic climate control and defrost/defog/demist so I had the dealer unlink both and then I modified the system such that when I activate defrost/defog/demist the system automatically goes to max heat and max blower.
I really don't like trying to drive blindly when the windshield fogs over so often.
http://www.tcinternet.net/users/backman5/p1010045.jpg
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Here is probably what you don't know yet. Check out the Panasonic NiMH Specific Power at 0 deg.C(32F) versus 30 deg.C(86F). Temperature is a huge factor.
Dennis
I have been faithfully reading the posts over the past month or so and doing other research. I guess that Toyota is doubling production beginning April 1. I am told I could have my car in 4-6 weeks. Two things still bother me though:
1 - It looks like most people average 40 mpg overall, although some actually achieve 50 mpg or better. I am planning to inflate the tires to 42/40 and hopefully get 45+ overall. I would be greatly disappointed to get "only" 40.
2 - There seems to be a large number of complaints over the gas bladder - and I guess Toyota is "working on the problem." Many people report gas spills and that the gauge bares no resemblance to reality. Should I wait for a 2005? Is this a problem that really is going to be fixed?
Thanks
> but the LOW SPEED low temperature effect does not make sense.
The need for heater is the cause. The engine is forced to run to keep both you and the emissions system warm. Doing that requires gas.
JOHN
> although some actually achieve 50 mpg or better.
With my Classic Prius, 40 MPG in the summer and 50 MPG in the winter was true.
With my 2004 Prius, it is not. Add 5 MPG to each for this new Prius.
> There seems to be a large number of complaints
> over the gas bladder
There are some owners that want to use more than 9 gallons of gas between each fillup. The design doesn't support that, hence some complaints. There really is more gas still in the tank, but the fuel gauge isn't calibrated to display that amount.
If you are pleased with that non-emergency maximum capacity of 9 gallons, then there is no problem.
JOHN
Usage Condition 1
Low OAT < 50 F & Low Speed Driving<40MPH (CITY)
MPG Reducing Factors:
- Lower Battery Specific Power Available
- Fuel Winter Formulation effects ICE
- Tire Pressure (larger variation)
Usage Condition 2 (Most Adverse Effect on MPG)
Low OAT <50 F & High Speed Driving >60 MPH (HWY)
MPG Reducing Factors:
- Lower Battery Specific Power Available<1000 W/kg
- Fuel Winter Formulation effects ICE
- Maximum Aero Drag
- Less Electric Motor Run Time & Regeneration
- Tire Pressure (larger variation)
Usage Condition 3 (Least Adv Effect on MPG)
Higher OAT >50 F & Low Speed Driving<40MPH(City)
MPG Reducing Factors:
- Tire Pressure (small variation)
- Minimal Aero Drag
Usage Condition 4
Higher OAT >50 F & High Speed Driving >60 MPH (HWY)
MPG Reducing Factors:
- Medium Aero Drag < Winter Conditions
- Less Electric Motor Run Time & Regeneration
- Tire Pressure (small variations)
Bottom Line: condition 2 worst MPG...condition 3 Best MPG...do you Prius owners agree...please comment.
Mike
Lexus RX330 - 70-0 176 feet
Prius '04 - 70-0 184 feet
Acura TL - 70-0 189 feet
Durango- 70-0 205 feet
Focus ZTW 70-0 213 feet
Also noticed that the dBA @ 70 MPH was 69 for the Prius, same as the Lexus! Acura was a bit louder at 70 dBA.
The Prius cannot go just on electric power correct?
Thanks
Re braking, MT's COTY test results were also interesting, with the Prius doing 60-0 in 125 feet, beating cars like the Acura TL and TSX, Jaguar XJ8, Mitsu Galant and Lancer Ralliart, Nissan Maxima, Pontiac Grand Prix GTP Comp, and Toyota Camry Solara SE. Of all the cars that bested the Prius, the only ones that didn't cost at least $10k more than a Prius were the Subaru Impreza WRX (123 feet) and the Mazda RX-8 (115 feet).
To test the braking power for yourself, take the car on a dry, deserted road and at 50-60 mph do a simulated emergency pedal-to-the-floor stop, which is what the Toyota salesman suggested I do on a test drive. You'll stop like that.
> more into the tank.
Pumping gas into the emissions canister is never a good idea, though you can.
Stretching the bladder and filling the neck can be done too, but not a good idea either.
Topping off a little bit is probably fine, since not all nozzles are the same.
JOHN
> consumed since last fill up?
Since it is difficult to judge where "full" is, that wouldn't be helpful. So instead, there is a another measurement system.
Use the Multi-Display values, which reset automatically when you fill up. That makes the chart pretty basic to use:
40 MPG = 360 miles
41 MPG = 369 miles
42 MPG = 378 miles
43 MPG = 387 miles
44 MPG = 396 miles
45 MPG = 405 miles
46 MPG = 414 miles
47 MPG = 423 miles
48 MPG = 432 miles
49 MPG = 441 miles
50 MPG = 450 miles
51 MPG = 459 miles
52 MPG = 468 miles
53 MPG = 477 miles
54 MPG = 486 miles
55 MPG = 495 miles
JOHN
JOHN
If you can't consistently fill it up, you don't really know how far you can go - the chart assumes a certain maximum gas amount at fill up. Perhaps the spec pages should list a range for fuel capacity?
Or if there is no issue, why is this being brought up at all?
Here is probably what you don't know yet. Check out the Panasonic NiMH Specific Power at 0 deg.C(32F) versus 30 deg.C(86F). Temperature is a huge factor.
___Except that the pack is warmed and/or cooled by the internal cabin compartment climate temperature. Once the Prius’ interior is up to temperature (5 minutes or less on a 32 degree day), the pack is ~ at internal the ambient temperatures of the cabin so the pack being cold after 5 minutes of use wouldn’t explain the low readings Prius owners are reporting in either warm or colder temperatures. In other words, its not the pack or simply the cold temperatures. It is more then likely the way the 04 Prius’ EV mode spoofed the EPA cycle when tested in the std. city cycle in particular.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The gauge works PERFECTLY for up to 9 gallons.
Some feel the need for more, so they complain.
JOHN
I'm curious as to how this differs from traditional cars. In my car I have (I'm guessing) a 12 gallon tank. My gas gauge is pretty consistent. Why would the Prius be different?
I'm not trying to be difficult, just curious.
Condition 1
Low OAT < 50 F & Low Speed Driving<40MPH (CITY)
MPG Reducing Factors:
- Lower Battery Specific Power Available
- Fuel Winter Formulation effects ICE
- Tire Pressure (larger variation)
- Heater Use
- Bladder Size Reduction (not a MPG issue)
Condition 2 (Most Adverse Effect on MPG)
Low OAT <50 F & High Speed Driving >60 MPH (HWY)
MPG Reducing Factors:
- Lower Battery Specific Power Available <1000 W/kg
- Fuel Winter Formulation effects ICE
- Maximum Aero Drag
- Less Electric Motor Run Time & Regeneration
- Tire Pressure (larger variation)
- Heater Use
- Bladder Size Reduction (Not a MPG issue)
Condition 3 (Least Adv Effect on MPG)
Higher OAT >50 F & Low Speed Driving<40MPH(City)
MPG Reducing Factors:
- Tire Pressure (small variation)
- Minimal Aero Drag
- A/C Use (Battery Operated)
Condition 4
Higher OAT >50 F & High Speed Driving >60 MPH (HWY)
MPG Reducing Factors:
- Medium Aero Drag < Winter Conditions
- Less Electric Motor Run Time & Regeneration
- Tire Pressure (small variations)
- A/C Use (Battery Operated)
Does Heater Operate on Resistance or Thermal Coolant Radiator???
Mike
It's not really a Tank in the traditional sense, but a 'Bladder' inside the tank that completely contains the fuel. It's designed to eliminate evaporative emissions and is part of the PZEV configuration. This seems to go with the 'Thermos' that holds hot coolant so emissions are reduced on startup.
For example, in Europe they don't have the Bladder or the Thermos. The tank nominally holds 12 gallons (11.9 to be exact), and in Europe the Fuel Gauge seems to be accurate for 12 gallons (or however many liters that translates to, hehe).
In the US version, many people are finding that the 'low fuel' light starts flashing after they've used anywhere from 6-8 gallons. Basically nowhere near 12.
No one knows for sure exactly what is happening, and even Toyota Dealers give conflicting information. What is certain is that Toyota is aware of it and sometime soon hopefully we'll hear what they have to say officially.
We do know, and Toyota has stated, that the bladder can shrink in cold weather, and actually hold less than the stated max.
However, people in Florida and California are seeing the odd behaviour so it's not likely that it's all explained by bladder shrinkage.
Also, some people aren't seeing the problem, and report that the gauge is accurate for a 12 gallon capacity.
Some folks have also speculated that Toyota intentionally put the 'low fuel' warning very early to prevent people from running out of fuel, which in the Prius can potentially lead to Battery Damage if people keep driving too far on Battery only after running out of gas, thinking that they can get to a station.
It seems there are a number of possibilities.
1) The Bladder actually holds less than the rated tank capacity.
2) Some Bladders are holding less, and some are holding 12 gallons.
3) The fuel gauge is intentionally set up very conservatively.
4) The fuel gauge in the bladder configuration has an engineering or programming problem that isn't reading correctly in some situations. (Some people have said their dealers have told them that there is an issue with the gauge placement and that Toyota is working on a fix).
5) The Seal around the Filler Neck (also part of the evaporative emissions reduction system) is causing back pressure making fuel pumps cut off prematurely, resulting in under-fill. If you've ever fueled an '04 Prius, you'll see a rubber seal/gasket that you push the pump nozzle through, which is actually pretty tight.
We really don't have enough info yet to know what's causing it, and we won't for sure until Toyota speaks up I suspect.
But, for some people, it's a real phenomena.
After a fillup (I stop after it clicks off, and don't try to 'top off'. I don't want backsplash and don't want to contaminate the charcoal canister), I get 7-8 gallons of fuel use before the low fuel warning comes on.
I've told my dealer that I have I have the 'problem' and I want to be put on the list to be notified if Toyota comes out with a 'fix'.
We'll see how it goes, and I'm very curious to see what the real story is.
At room temperature, it is 11.9 gallons.
During the dead of winter in Minnesota, it shrinks by about 1.5 gallons.
I'm not the type of person that likes driving on fuems, so I always fill up diligently. But when I first got my 2004, the tank needed to be filled. It took 10.7 gallons.
This evening, the "Add Fuel" warning had not triggered yet. But I stopped to fill up anyway, since I'll need to again in just 4 days to accurately gather monthly statistics. The tank took 8.5 gallons without topping off at all. So that puts the gauge dead-on for me.
JOHN
>>However, people in Florida and California are seeing the odd behaviour so it's not likely that it's all explained by bladder shrinkage.
You obviously have never lived in Florida in the winter. North Florida is COLD. Even Miami will get into the 30's in the winter...
I reiterate that this is bizarre behavior for an automobile tank. If the thing is "accurate to 9 gallons", they should put 9 gallons in the US Specification, because that is what the tank holds. If it holds more in summer, they should list a range (9 gal / winter, 11.9 gal / summer).
I don't think the safety regulations would allow that, since you can physically carry up to 11.9 gallons. After all, the EPA doesn't allow an automaker to print any MPG values other than the ones they determine. So it would tend to make sense that Toyota doesn't even have the option to list any type of real-world data.
All you get is not-really-informative lab facts, nothing real-world.
JOHN
May mean Canada only.
___I have read that the Japanese 04 Prius doesn’t have a bladder and that it is not PZEV complaint/capable. Is the European 04 Prius a PZEV rated/capable automobile? If it is, maybe the bladder can be removed because I don’t believe the Euro spec’ed Prius’ are having this lack of capacity issue as Tempusvn mentioned a page ago?
I don't think the safety regulations would allow that, since you can physically carry up to 11.9 gallons.
___John1701a, I don’t know what the manufacturer regs are in regards to listed vs. actual fuel tank capacity but the MDX’s tank has a 19.2 gallon capacity spec’ed tank and can hold a tad under 23 gallons as far as its maximum that I have ever filled it up with? The 03 Corolla LE has a 13.2 gallon capacity spec’ed tank but I have placed a tad under 15.4 gallons into it. The 00 Insight has a 10.6 gallon capacity spec’ed tank and I have put just a tad under 11 gallons into it.
___In any case, when the low fuel light comes on and if you do fill it at that time, you will never have problems in terms of running out of gas while on the road as you have stated many times in the past. The range however is an issue worth looking into
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
xcel, do you know how much of that extra 2.2 gallons you put into your Corolla went into the gas tank and how much went into other places, e.g. the canister used to reduce emissions?
Also, for reference, my CR-V holds 15.3 gallons. I have come as close as 14.8 on a fill up, and the guage indicated below empty. This leads me to believe it really does hold 15.3 gallons.
I realize it only gets 27 MPG on the road, but it does have up to 35 Cu feet of cargo space behind the rear seats (with the seats slid forward). Believe me, I use every inch on our one week vacations.
___Yep. About 1.5 gallons went up towards the canister and stayed there. It is sealed back to the intake to be burned again.
___Hey, do you remember your info on the 04 Prius being a PZEV in all states? According to the EPA, the Focus is just as clean in all states as well. Both are rated 10/10 in the clean fuel sates and only 9/10 in the high sulfur states that you and I live in unless you purchase that wonderful Blue Planet fuel you have available to you Or just purchase whatever ;-)
___Stevedebi, now that you know what your Hybrid can do, 27 mpg in the CRV will be one of those numbers you used to talk about Just filling up the MDX and driving it home last night including a 100’ climb over a ¾ mile stretch (4 miles total), I was at 28.9 mpg as I pulled into the garage. Throw a game gauge in front of someone and they will never receive poor mileage again :-D
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Maybe I should install a trip computer to up my mileage readings? Hard to believe you got almost 29 MPG, unless it was highway speeds (I used to own an Odyssey with that engine - does well at highway speeds).