Audi A3

wale_bate1

Yes Kurt, you're whining, but you just go right ahead, that's what 90% of car talk is!

I really don't think Audi intended the A3 3.2Q to be anything but add-on sales strictly to enthusiasts. The B&B model is the 2.0T, in which you may choose your set-up.

I don't think they miscued on the suspension in the least. If you're choosing the performance model, you get the performance suspension, says I. No brainer.

No, the miscue is in forcing the enthusiast toward the 3.2 for Quattro, when almost all of us enthusiast types would clearly prefer to S-Line a 2.0T with Quattro. With all paint finishes standard, dang it.

dl7265

OR you could get a Black GTI for wife and a White GTI for yourself. Yea its kinda apples to oranges, but not by much. IF Audi drops the free maintence, the delta is larger...

Something to consider.

DL

ccd1

No waiting list in my area (DC), but limited color availability (Silver and Dark Grey seem to be the colors du jour).

And I hate to keep agreeing with Wale, but I do. The mistake is not offering quattro in the 2.0, not the S-line suspension on the 3.2. The 2.0 is going to be the volume seller for the A3. However, I do disagree that most enthusiasts would prefer a S-line quattro 2.0. The enthusiasts might prefer the S3 with the 2.0 putting out 272 ponies, but until then I'll take the 3.2 any day.

ccd1

Not a bad suggestion, but when I said "I do" I apparently also agreed to be a chauffer. Only need one car

dl7265

Then your set. Drop the left over 5K into your 401k

Personally, given a choice I would not choose a FWD, However.. The GTI's and Audi for that matter do the best job of concealing the torque steer. The VW allowing people to get Xenon's, a 6 speed and 18" Wheels and no extra do dad's that aren't needed is pretty appealing I think. Drivers wanted ?

DL

wale_bate1

Personally, I think if you want to go FWD, and the torque steer is an issue for you, then Honda products pretty much rule, in my experience. I can't commend them enough for the exquisite engineering they have developed for FWD.

The rest of the car (choose your model) may be Sominex, but the drivetrain is as civilized as FWD gets, I think.

kurtamaxxxguy

Seems like most of the Civics have peaky engines. Apparently in the SI models nearly all the power's in a tiny range at the very top of the RPM range, so you are rowing the shifter constantly trying to stay on power.

Audi's approach is so much better - wide range of torque and power across the board, so when you want to go, you go.

>>I really don't think Audi intended the A3 3.2Q to be anything but add-on sales strictly to enthusiasts. The B&B model is the 2.0T, in which you may choose your set-up.<<

Agreed. Hoping in '07 they'll be a little less narrow in focus.

jmess

"She told me to get what I want because I do all the driving. She has NO IDEA what this car is really like."

Last time my wife said that I came home in a C6; there is even room for the dog (small) in the back. It may sound really crazy but sometimes you have to listen to the little woman :-)

There is a new white A3 that lives down the street. I think it looks pretty sharp. The DSG in the GTI seems to be getting good reviews.

Back to lurking mode.

allhorizon

The DSG in the GTI seems to be getting good reviews.

Yaa, in the April R&T the DSG GTI won against the SI and the beefed up >$31,000 Mini Cooper.

Personally, for me, the gap between the A3 and the GTI is widening. I really wanted a smart (not too front-heavy, reasonable mileage) AWD VWoA/AoA product, this time.

Tough luck, I guess. Back to the most appealing FWD (GTI) or competitive AWD options outside this manufacturer (WRX, Forester, Legacy GT, ...).

andres3

If Audi raised their warranty coverage to 5 years/60,000 miles. Does anyone have any experience in dealing with Audi at say..... 4 years and one month... or 51,000 miles after a major breakdown? This is crucial to my fears about poor reliability and costs.

Honda stepped up at 42,000 miles for a major mechanical failure. They stood behind their product, fixed it in 2 days (ordering the assembly overnight freight), and paid for the rental car for those days. Therefore, even though Honda's bumber to bumper warranty is only 36/36,000, the real warranty is just as good as the German Automakers, and plus, you really don't need the warranty, or have to use it usually. Starting in 2005 they switched to a 60 month /60,000 powertrain warranty, however (but mine is 2003).

kurtamaxxxguy

Unfortunately Audi is cutting back with a shorter maintanance agreement. At least the vehicle warranty period is the same.

Has anyone compared a VW GTI to the A3 in terms of performance and handling?

blueguydotcom

I found the A3 more comfortable and it's handling was more reassuring. Weird. The A3 seemed to sit lower and the chassis didn't rock and wobble like the GTI's.

kurtamaxxxguy

The car magazines have complained about the GTI being "raised" about half an inch. Euro versions sit lower.

allhorizon

Perhaps they hadn't PDI'ed the GTI you drove correctly and you still had the spring spacers inserted. Even with the US ride height (raised by 15mm to get better crash scores in view of US SUV ride heights), there is no question that the GTI is a bit faster and handles better than the A3.

blueguydotcom

Allhorizon,

Perhaps. That car did not impress me in the least. there's no question the A3s I've driven were far more planted, solid, flat-cornering cars than the GTI. Loved the A3, loathed both the GTI/Jetta GLI. Strange that they're on the same platforms, yet the VW twins felt like junk compared to the A3s.

andres3

Interior quality vs. the Audi A3.

The plastics, the leathers, & all of the interior parts are a step down in the VW GTI/GLI compared to the Audi A3.

I know I read someone say that they are the same cars, on the same platform, with the same exact drivetrain. I have seen mixed specifications on those facts though. It appears to be the same 2.0L turbo engine, but I'm only 70% sure its the same DSG transmission.

I can say that none of the interior finishes are equal. The Audi is in it's own class. Also, Germans assemble the Audi's, while Mexican's are assembling the VW. I have nothing against Mexicans, but I'd rather buy a car made in Germany than Mexico based on prior experience and knowledge from "hecho en Mexico" automotive parts.

kurtamaxxxguy

Does VW "americanize" their cars a little more than Audi does? That might account for the ride heigth adjustment issue.

GM did the same thing when it "Americanized" the Saab/Opel into the Mailbu. Some hate it because the ride was softened up to handle harsh roads.

dbt

Does VW "americanize" their cars a little more than Audi does? That might account for the ride heigth adjustment issue.

GM did the same thing when it "Americanized" the Saab/Opel into the Mailbu. Some hate it because the ride was softened up to handle harsh roads.

Kurt,
You may be interested in the following from Warren Brown of the Washington Post:
"Take a look at the highly acclaimed Opel Signum sold here in Europe and the Chevrolet Malibu Maxx on sale in the United States. Both are solid family cars based on the same mid-size GM platform. But the Signum has substantially better styling and considerably more panache than its American cousin largely because GM cut some corners on materials and design to save money and get the Malibu Maxx to market.

It turned out to be a self-defeating strategy. The Signum sells well in Europe because buyers want it. The Malibu Maxx sells in the United States essentially because GM bribes customers with rebates and other costly incentives to buy it.

"Let's face it," Lutz said in an interview after GM's Geneva presentations. "The Chevrolet Malibu Maxx is an okay car. But it's not better than the Opel Signum. It's probably not as good. The Signum and the Malibu Maxx should have been the same car.""
From Blunt Truths About GM's Market Troubles

Now, the question is what does this mean for VW/Audi on the A3 / GTI. The Phaeton / A8 competition is another instance.

esf

I have a friend who was thinking about an A3, then was more seriously thinking about the GTI because of its lower price. In a European Car article, the A3 3.2 quattro (standard with S-line) was tested. A quote from the article:

"As entry-level models go- and I'm hesitant to call this car an entry level, because it's really not precisely what the 3.2 A3 is when you consider other cars in its segment- this could be the best out there" (19).

Now, my friend is seriously thinking about the A3 over the Golf.

:P

esf

The A8 is by far a better car than the Phaeton- it is substantially lighter, has slightly more advanced features (Torsen vs. Haldex AWD, headlight LEDs, more seat controls, aluminum space frame), better styling in my eyes, costs only $3,000 more, and is a more athletic car.

Although, it also does have the Audi badge, and VW has no experience in that market.

I like the Phaeton a lot, I just like the A8 better.

[Styling is subjective]

allhorizon

I know I read someone say that they are the same cars, on the same platform, with the same exact drivetrain. I have seen mixed specifications on those facts though. It appears to be the same 2.0L turbo engine, but I'm only 70% sure its the same DSG transmission.

I can say that none of the interior finishes are equal. The Audi is in it's own class. Also, Germans assemble the Audi's, while Mexican's are assembling the VW. I have nothing against Mexicans, but I'd rather buy a car made in Germany than Mexico based on prior experience and knowledge from "hecho en Mexico" automotive parts.

Yes, it is the same DSG transmission. The cars share many parts, but you get what you pay for in some details. On the other hand, the GTI is a bit lighter and a bit more agile. Same goes for the R32 (available in Europe, for now) vs. the 3.2 A3. Every single review gives the nod to the R32 in terms of its driving capabilities (it consistently wins against the BMW 130), but the A3 is almost as competent and a more relaxed drive.

The Puebla facility is one of the most modern in VWs reign, and the same robots assemble cars there as they do in Germany or elsewhere. Many Audis and Audi parts are assembled outside of Germany, as well (e.g., Bratislava for Q7 and Porsche Cayenne). I wouldn't hold that against either one.
That said, the GTI is built in Wolfsburg, and so will be the Golf - until perhaps at a later time the production may shift to Brazil.

kurtamaxxxguy

Per C&D newsblurb, Looks like the A3's getting some S3 cousins (2 door coupes like the GTI) with more powerful engines (one turbocharged V6 is well over the current A3 Quattro's).

Any word on when these arrive? 2007, perhaps?

And I agree some aspects of the Maxx are downright cheap. But at least the suspension was retweaked to handle our bad roads. For those who want the crunchy ride, there's the SS version.

ccd1

According to European news sources, there will an S3. This car will used the 4 cylinder engine in the 2.0T, but will produce 272 hp. The car will initially only be available with a 6 speed and only available as a 2 door model. Car is supposed to hit European show rooms this Summer.

There will also be a RS3 which will use the 6 cylinder engine in the 3.2, but producing 350hp. This car is rumored to be available in the 4 door model.

There are no reported plans to bring either car into the States and I wouldn't hold my breath on them coming here anytime soon. Unlike Europe, premium hatches have not sold well in the US and the A3 3.2 is already the most expensive hatch on the US market. My guess is that word would have leaked out if either car was coming in 2007 to the States, so I'd say 2008 at the earliest and then only if A3 3.2 sales go very well.

kurtamaxxxguy

is the 2007 or 2008 A3's will get one or both of those S3 engines.

Wouldn't that help differentiate the A3 from any future GTI (including the 5 door-er) VW cares to import?

ccd1

I'm not saying that the S3 will get to the States in 2007 or 2008, but that this is the earliest it MAY appear. And I think the S3 would have to differentiate itself from the 3.2.

Also, I think it depends on 3.2 sales. If Audi can't sell enough 3.2s, no reason to think they can sell S3s for even more money

kurtamaxxxguy

Since Audi decided to "specialize" the A3 Quattro for the sporting euro-enthusasist, sales may be self-limiting. Only time will tell.

What site posts monthly sales figures for Audi?

allhorizon

The Audi media site does.

ccd1

Go to fourtitude.com and check out their news section. AOA (Audi of Am) and Audi of Canada posted January sales. The sales figures are up substantially (over 20 percent off the top of my head). A3 sales are listed, but not sales projections for the A3 so it is impossible to tell how well A3 sales are doing. The figures show that the A4 is model that sells the best. The figures show 1/05 sales and 1/06 sales.

As for the S3, I meant to say the car arrives in Europe this Summer, but the US won't see the car until the 2008 model year at the earliest. My bet is we won't see it at all. AOA limits what they bring into the US. For example, the RS4, which was recently introduced, is made in a sedan, wagon and convertible. AOA is just bringing the sedan into the US.

AOA has also been conservative with the A3 3.2. I've read they are bringing just 3,000 cars into the US. Can't tell how well the A3 3.2 is doing from the sales figures since A3 sales are not broken down between 2.0s and 3.2s.

esf

I don't know if you read my previous post[s], but European Car magazine thought that the A3 was too good, and never considered the GTI to be a better car. They even said it might be "the best in its class."

Besides, the A3 2.0T competes with the GTI. For some reason, the A3 is quicker. Its 0-60 time is 6.1-6.4 seconds, while the Golf is in just over seven seconds.

I'm not totally biased- the GTI is a great little hatch. I'm just confused why anyone would buy it over the A3, unless they can't afford to. The A3 is $4K more, is more luxurious, quicker, and less chunky (sharper, better looking), has more space, and obviously, it's an Audi.

dl7265

Id say a lot of folks on Vwvortex.com might disagree on looks preference, which is subjective at best. The GTI looks like a proper hatch, while the A3 has a odd wagon/hatch look to it. IF Audi is dropping the Free maintence the delta grows. Edmunds is showing a 1K rebate on the GTI allready. Not too mention the VW can be bought at cost, and probably not so for the A3. Id count on 5K real world numbers.

For me a sticker that nears a number starting with 4XX is getting out of hand for a "hot hatch".

DL

blueguydotcom

LOL. I remember the vortexers saying the GTI was going to demand MSRP or higher for well over 6 months. I called them on it then and get a laugh about it now. The GTI is a cool car for 25-26k loaded up, no doubt, but many people who can afford that start to look toward more mature cars. FWIW, VW is overpricing all their cars now...Audi's prices at least seem fairly reasonable (save for the A3 3.2 which could use a 2k drop).

wale_bate1

Subjective indeed! While I think the GTI has always run with a certain cool factor, it's still stubby, like most three-doors. The shape gains a more refined proportion as a five door, as well as better balance.

dl7265

I think your spot on. If I were to purchase one for commute/fun car Id feel better about a 22-23K range personally. Audi's recent $600 increases in my mind needed to go the other way. The A4's on my dealers lot have set there for months, while the E90 fly off the shelves. Thats not even getting into ED. It seems they are more comfortable being a niche market with high per car profit.

DL

kurtamaxxxguy

One reason...VW has more dealers.
We have few Audi dealers in my area (I live in Los Angeles!!) and most of them have no service on weekends.
However, One car rental place we have is next to an Audi dealer and actually has Audis to rent! Fingers x'ed they will have A3's available for weekend rental later this year.

If Audi actually brings the S3's over (or just their engines) wouldn't that would help differentiate them even more from VW?

andres3

What $600 increase are you talking about DL7265?

I agree... Audi should just lower their prices 1K across the board and be done with it. Or just issue a 2K Rebate and watch the cars fly out of the dealer lots.

esf

He actually is right, and I'm an avid Audi fan.

I agree... Audi should just lower their prices 1K across the board and be done with it. Or just issue a 2K Rebate and watch the cars fly out of the dealer lots.

Excuse me? Audi is extremely reasonable (in pricing) next to Mercedes-Benz and BMW. The A6 is $5,000 less than the competing 5 Series (the 525i is not a competing 5er, but it is roughly the same price as an A6 3.2!!!), and it is about $9,000 less than a Mercedes E... a considerable amount, no?

The A4 is $2,000 less than the 3 Series, and the S4/M3 are $3,000 in difference. Don't get me started on the CLK55 vs. S4 Cabriolet... it's $30,000 MORE!

A8L is $5,000 less than the 7, and I'm not going to count how much less it is than the S-Class.

:P

dl7265

The A4 with 2006 had a $600 increase, not sure on the A3.

DL

dl7265

I'll be brief off topic not to get scolded by the host .

2006 A4Q $30,340.00
my 2006 325i $30,300.00

Not sure where you get 2K more. The biggest issue is Audi has chosen to not let the people choose their options. So, dealers order these huge packages and every A4 on my dealers lot is 40K for a 4 banger. The ability too choose options al a cart is a huge check in the win box for the propeller car company IMO.

DL

ccd1

Options is an issue with Audi, IMHO. With the A3, there are several vexing issues such as no quattro in the 2.0 or being unable to get certain options, depending on which other options you choose.

Even with fewer option packages on a car like the A3 3.2, you end up with options ordered that you may not want. The result is that there isn't much incentive to buy off the lot. For example, most cars in my area come in silver or dark grey ($450 extra) and Cold Weather Package ($750 extra, still don't know why this option is ordered so much in a place like the DC area). So unless I can get more than $1200 discount on a car with these options, I'm just as well off ordering the car.

kyfdx

You are comparing the AWD Audi with the RWD BMW...

The A4 comes as a FWD only car... To be an apples-to-apples comparison, you would have to compare the A4Q to the 325Xi..

I'm guessing about a $2K difference...

Dang!! Now, I'm off-topic!

Anyway.... The price on the A3 is a little stiff... Plus, not having Quattro on the 2.0T model is a big mistake..

regards,
kyfdx
(not the host)

dl7265

Err you sucked me in..

Ok, FWD does not = RWD. So to be a fair fight Q has to be added to the equation. Then you have the whole extra weight issue and poorer fuel economy. Just build me an RWD A3 and be done with it :shades:

DL

shipo

"Just build me an RWD A3 and be done with it..." :shades:

Oh Geez, now you've sucked me in too...

I'm thinking a RWD A3 2.0T 6-Speed would almost be automotive Nirvana. :shades:

Best Regards,
Shipo

ccd1

Heck, if we are going the dream, how about a 3.2 quattro with rear wheel bias and FSI to improve gas mileage. Maybe even throw in 50 extra ponies.

kurtamaxxxguy

..petition BMW to bring their 1 series over here? It's RWD and per one report on Edmunds is at least driving nirvana, if not (yet) up to Audi interior quality.

Wrt A3 pricing, might the inflexibility (loading with options and extra charges, limited drivetrain options (Quattro = sport, period), more than the price, be the bigger problem?

Or does that inflexibility actually help sales by promising and delivering an undiluted, unique driving experience?

shipo

I've read several reviews of the 1-Series and while it might could well be the best of any car in that category from a performance perspective, part of that performance is due to its diminutive size. For me, the A3 is of a size that meets my needs AND offers wonderful performance.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom

Excuse me? Audi is extremely reasonable (in pricing) next to Mercedes-Benz and BMW. ...The A4 is $2,000 less than the 3 Series

Uh, no it's not.

An A4 3.2 with the things I demand on my car runs 40,985: quattro (because RWD isn't available), 6 speed, sport, bixenons (must get sunroof, premium, technology to secure bixenons), park control aluminum trim.

A 330i with sport, bixenons, moonroof, leather, aluminum trim, park control, comfort access (not available on the Audi), 6 speed = 41.195.

Two hundred dollar difference and the BMW has one feature I really want (comfort access) and another that makes driving more fun (RWD).

Of course, my 06 330i with those features was really 5k cheaper via euro delivery.

blueguydotcom

A3 2.0T with RWD...I would have bought one without a doubt.

dl7265

Look at the trouble Ive caused. Now we have at least 3 pre- orders for A3 2.0T RWD ...Audi bail me out!!!

DL

allhorizon

You guys are funny. If you are dedicated RWD aficionados, you simply shouldn't be looking at Audis, which are some of the best FWD vehicles in the world, and also offer AWD. If you can only find fun in RWD - wrong manufacturer.

But don't think that fun=performance or handling. In all reviews I have seen, the 1-series BMW get's blown away (with a significant margin, and on the track) by the AWD R32. Apart from the fact that it is smaller (back seats and hatch space almost useless) and equally fitted, significantly more expensive than the R32 in Europe.

Got to dig up an 3.2A3 vs. BMW comparison...

blueguydotcom

I was stomping all over a poor A3 3.2 at the track last month. By no means am I an expert racer - first time on a track - but that guy seemed even worse than me! I won't blame the car;I just know I passed that joker more than once and in the corners he simply couldn't hang with my lowly 235 HP ZHP.