Buying Tips - How Do I Get the Best Deal?

tsgeisel

That's exactly what I'm doing. They're thinking it over right now.

My original offer was deliberately way low. Their counter-offer has been way too high.

Right now if they can't match my price, I'm just going to buy a new model without all the bells and whistles at a little over invoice. Eventually you have to say "it ain't gonna happen".

bobst

"They're thinking it over right now."

How long do they have to think? From my experience, a dealer can give an answer pretty quick. That's what they do for a living.

tsgeisel

He'd originally told me Friday. He called back today, accepting my offer.

The most important thing is not to be in a hurry. Or, if you are in a hurry, don't be in a rush. Don't *look like* you're in a hurry.

I could have had the car at Invoice+$100 last week. I didn't want to spend anywhere near that much.

biancar

Sounds like you negotiated well. What did you finally get it for?

49thst

I just bought a used Mazda3 for about 1K less than Edmund's TMV, so I feel pretty good about the price. But I got charged 583 for a "reconditioning" fee that was added onto the advertised price (and 349 for processing seemed steep too, but that I guess I can accept...). Unfortunately, I should have gotten this dropped before I signed the papers, but this was my first time buying a car and I just let the salesman and finance guy (a real jerk) push me along. However, I still have a chance to cancel the deal. I want to tell them I'll keep the car if they rework it and drop the fee, or just write me a check for that amount, I don't care. Does this seem like a situation where if I threaten to cancel the contract they'll waive this fee? I told this to one of the finance managers today, not one I saw before, and he claimed there was nothing he could do, but he may just be bluffing.

tsgeisel

15k out the door. A reasonable deal all around.

cccompson

Let's see - $583 plus $349 equals $932 or about $62 less than TMV.

Would be surprised if you could actually cancel the deal but if you can (and are willing to actually do so), then, sure, go ahead and try to renegotiate. Let us know how it works out (because my money says they will neither take the car back nor give you any money back).

49thst

well, basically I can cause the financing to fail. The bank wants a copy of some documents to give me credit. If I "forget" where the documents are, it would be the same as if the bank were denying me credit flat out. If the credit is denied, the deal fails, the dealership has to take the car back and refund my money. Is that right? I'm actually willing to give them the 349 proc fee, but I'm a bit peeved at the pressure in the finance dept. over the 583 reconditioning fee. That's what I really want to get rid of.

graphicguy

You may want to look at the contract you signed a little more closely. There may be some "fees" involved if you fail financing or back out of a deal. They may even have a clause that states if financing fails with their designated lendor, they have the right to finance you with a "sub-prime" lendor.....in which case, you get a major hosing on the APR.

Usually, once you sign and drive off the lot, that car is yours and the terms are expected to be adhered to.

Admittedly, the reconditioning fee is a new one on me. THat's that cost of doing business in the car world. Reconditioning is what they do with used cars. That's why they sell them for more than they bought them for. The dealership accepts responsibility to make the car "pretty" to put it on their lot, in addition to making sure it runs right, etc.

mirth

49th - chalk it up to experience and just enjoy your car (I personally think it's the best compact out there). Next time you can be more vigilant about the pricing, but, IMHO, it's not worth the hassle to try and unwind the deal with both the bank and the dealer. It may not even be possible.

49thst

Well, I don't think the contract would bite me if I cause a finance failure, but who knows what they could pull out of their sleeve. I guess I'll just enjoy the vehicle and watch out next time. I'll feel better when I refinance with the credit union and cut the interest rate in half. BTW, since I noticed some people talking about Darcars and other DC area dealers, I bought it at Rosenthal Mazda in Arlington. If you consider going there, take care of the reconditioning and processing fees early, they will add them on after you have agreed on a price. 14K was their internet price, but I didn't tell them I knew that immediately and they started the negotiations at 15,500.

ironcladlou

To preface: I am just trying to satisfy curiosity here, to see what is possible. If this is a terrible idea, I have no qualms just waiting until I achieve equity on the car.

I have a black 2005 Scion xB in good condition. KBB claims something like 12k trade-in. My current payoff amount is about 14k, leaving me with 2k in negative equity.

Assumptions: Let's pretend I wanted to go buy a new car. Let's also pretend I wanted to handle the financing myself (e.g., a pre-approval, taking a blank check to the dealership). Let's also pretend I'm willing to pay up to 22k OTD for a new car (totally contrived figure).

What is the right order to present this information to a dealer? With my light understanding of the process having read a zillion articles and forum posts here and on cars.com, my theoretical plan was something like: Find my 22k dream-car, use negotiation or rebates to drive the price down as much as possible from 22k, and use that reduction to nullify or at least dampen the 2k in negative equity. So, even if I end up with only 1.5k in reduction and have to pay 22.5k in the end, I have still got away pretty cleanly from my old lease (repaying $500 rather than 2k and still staying very close to target price).

What are the flaws with such a plan? Keep in mind I understand the snowball effect of negative equity, and do intend to keep my next car for an extended period.

Another unanswered question in the process is the particular ordering of it. Do I go with a blank check and try to get the car's price as low as possible before revealing that I have a negative trade-in? How do I even handle this payment wise? Would they pay the 12k (assumption) for the old car and simply add the remaining 2k to the price of the new car for which I would then write a check (for 22.5k)?

Suggestions? Should I just wait another year?

mirth

...wait until you were not upside-down on your ride before getting a new car, but whatever you do you're not getting around the amount you owe. In your example above, you wouldn't really have "got away pretty cleanly from my old lease (repaying $500 rather than 2k and still staying very close to target price)" because if you didn't have negative equity you would have got the new car for $2K less then what you would end up paying.

To put it more simply: you owe what you owe.

ironcladlou

I see what you're saying. It's sort of a matter of perception. In my example, I consider 22k an acceptable cost. So if I weren't upside down, yes, I'd get the 22k car for 20k with the fictional rebates etc. But, if I got it for 22k (due to the negative equity), that would ALSO be acceptable. Obviously not as ideal as if I were even on my trade, but still within the limits I've imposed in the example. See what I mean?

So, although it may not be the best idea, I am still curious as to how the logistical part would play out (in the example, how to negotiate a price and then still get a fair trade in value and roll the difference into the new cost).

audia8q

The balance on your current car plays no role in the negotiations. As a dealer the only reason I need to know the payoff amount is to figure the payments....if the consumer is paying cash or obtaining outside financing (not thru the dealer) I don't figure in the payoff at all. It's up to the consumer to handle their own payoff. If the cosnsumer is financing thru the dealership I will be handling the payoff and need to verify the amount to work it into the deal.

Also, don't make the mistake that many consumer make when trying to figure out how to handle the payoff. Your example of adding the $2k on the new car isnt exactly correct....it should look like this

new car 22,000
trade in (12,000)
-----------------
cash diff $10,000
sales tax +$600
MVD fees +$200
--------
$10,800
rebate ($2000)
--------
$8,800
payoff +$14,000

amount financed $22,800

graphicguy

You're trade-in is worth whatever the dealer is willing to pay. I'd seperate the two deals. Find a car you want. Negotiate that price. Then, show them your trade. They'll offer what they think it's worth to them. Now, you have a pretty good idea of how much you're "upside down". You add the negative equity to the price of the new car, that's what you're repaying on the loan.

Obviously, you're going from one negative situation into even a bigger one by adding negative equity from your trade into the price of the new car, which you'll be even more upside down with after you drive it from the lot.

ironcladlou

audia: I see how that works now, thanks. How would that work out in terms of actually paying the dealer? I cut them a "blank check" (in the self finance/cash scenario) for that final finance amount taking everything into account? Does this mean I'd start off negotiating for an OTD price of 20,800 and then ACTUALLY pay them 22,800 after the trade is factored in?

graphicguy: I see what you mean. What I disagree with (in this case) is "being even more upside down." In this particular example, if the 22.8k figure audia came up with is a fair price (and one my budget can accommodate) then how am I in a worse position? I think I would only be worse off if the addition of the negative equity jacked the final price up beyond what is fair for the new vehicle.

graphicguy

iron....I'm sure audia8 can answer your question better. But, aside from exotics, no car appreciates. Moreover, you take a huge depreciation hit when you drive a new car off the lot. Adding negative equity to that now depreciated new car, can't be better in the long run financially.

Aside from what your budget can accomodate, it's never a good idea to add a negative equity situation on top of a depreciating asset like a car. You're just putting yourself further into a negative equity hole than you're already in.

audia8q

alot depends on who is handling the financing and the payoff....

if your not a payment buyer but a bottom line buyer then just haggle the bottom line without the payoff. (selling price less trade in plus tax & fees) The payoff smount can be added in later.

Many folks can't understand a deal without haggling monthly payments....this is where the payoff amount needs to be disclosed upfront to figure accurate payments.

Graphicguy is giving you some good info on flipping one bad situation for another...in most cases if your flipping negative equity you didn't put enough down when you purchased the car and you financed it for too long. I generally don't comment on "should I or shouldn't I" that is up to each individual but I can tell you graphicguy is on the money here....

bobst

Iron, why do you want to get rid of a car that is only one year old?

ironcladlou

It was more of an academic excercise than anything. Like I said originally, I will wait until I am closer to being evened out if there's no way I can work a deal that isn't going to screw me. No big deal, just "what if" type stuff. Doesn't hurt to play out the numbers.

One more question, and this may be the wrong topic, but I'll give it a shot here: How do rebates factor in when you're trying to offer around invoice price? Let's say you want to offer invoice price for a 20k car. Where do rebates come into play? Let's say there was a 2k cash back incentive. Does this mean you can effectively get the car for 18k? How could the dealer possibly make a profit? If that isn't possible, then how can incentives be used in any meaningful way, assuming invoice is the target people seem to aim for? What am I missing?

graphicguy

I'll take a stab at it....

Rebates are nothing more than lowering the price of the car.....especially if it's a rebate directly to the consumer. If it's marketing support to the dealer, it's up to the individual dealer whether they give you that money in the form of a discount.

Think of it this way.....XYZ car has a $20K MSRP. You negotiate it to $19K. Then apply the $2K rebate. The real cost of the car is now $17K. The real value of the car is now $17K, brand new....not $20K. You can negotiate a couple of different ways. I'd automatically assume that the $20K car is really and $18K car with rebate, and negotiate from that $18K number. My guess, if the car has rebates, it's a slow(er) mover. What most recommend is to negotiate from invoice. Same $20K car....invoice is $18K...subtract $2K rebate....it's invoice is now $16K. How much over $16K you can get the car for is a topic of endless debate here and elsewhere.

Here's the bottom line, though. That MSRP $20K car is really only an MSRP $18K car when it comes to figuring depreciation. The depreciation clock starts ticking @ $18K when you drive it off the lot. Rebated vehicles, in general, depreciate more and faster than non-rebated vehicles, as a rule of thumb.

Dealers make their profits from the amount over invoice you pay, manufacturer volume incentives (which you dont't know about), incentives from lending institutions to initiate loans, service and used car sales (which have much higher margin than new cars)....plus some things I'm sure we'll never know.

But, it is true, if a dealership only makes $100 over invoice on every car they sell, they won't be in business very long.

ironcladlou

Thanks for the informative replies. I feel like I have much more of a clue now.

What I still don't understand about the danger of the negative equity:

Scenario A: Let's say I was at the break-even point. So, if my car were worth 10k, and I owed 10k, I could trade it in and at THAT point in time I am now clear of the auto loan debt entirely.

Scenario B: We'll say it's worth 10k and I owe 12k, giving me 2k in negative equity.

In both cases, the intent is to purchase a new car, thus instantly recreating the debt you have just eliminated in the trade. So the premise of both A and B is fundamentally harmful unless you're getting a car which will cost the same or less than the payoff in A and which has a cheaper TCO, effectively swapping cars for either no gain or some gain. The only issue with B is IF the rollover increases the amount of the new debt beyond what you are able to afford, or if the new price of the vehicle is pushed beyond what is a fair price, or if the new price of the vehicle is too high to allow you to pay it off in a fashion to combat depreciation (and that's only assuming you intend to sell off the car in the future).

So again, I am not sure what the issue with being upside down is IF you can get a bargain such that you don't increase the price of the new car higher than will be possible to afford (if you intend to keep it for the entire term) or higher than will allow the car to be paid off enough to get equity come time to sell. I think the latter case is certainly risky. It seems if you want to roll over some negative equity and can afford the new price, you basically MUST commit to the loan term to avoid killing yourself with snowballed debt.

So I guess in summary... when upside down, if you can play it right and are trying to get a new car to actually commit to, you could probably get one (and only one) shot at it.

If anyone can poke holes in this line of reasoning, please do. I would hate to go too long thinking I've figured something about this out.

socala4

If you have negative equity and you roll it into your new car purchase, you are, in a sense, making two car payments at the same time: your payment will be based upon the new car purchase and the negative equity on the old one that you no longer even own! If you want to run on a debt treadmill for years to come, fine, but that otherwise isn't very good fiscal management.

The other posters were right to advise you against this, it doesn't make sense from the standpoint of managing your household finances. Is there some reason that you can't/shouldn't just continue to drive your current car while you have this gap? (If the loan terms on the current loan are totally unreasonable, that might be one reason to get out from under it ASAP, but if that's the case, I'd try to first find a way to pay it off or refinance it.)

bobst

Going into debt is risky and you should only do it for good reasons. You are obligation yourself to pay back the debt and that restricts your freedom in the future.

I owe, I owe, so off to work I go.

Borrowing money to buy a house or for education or to replace a car that is unsafe is reasonable.

ironcladlou

I understand and agree with everything you all are saying. I think what's being misunderstood here is:

"Going into debt is risky" -- this is true. But as I said: whether there is positive equity or not, the intent is to buy a new car, creating debt. How much is the important part, not the debt itself. If the negative equity doesn't result in an unmanagable amount (based on the criteria I previously listed), what's the difference?

"making two car payments at the same time" -- Technically speaking, yes. However, you have rolled the costs together in this case and ensured that the total is still within the feasable cost range for the NEW car. So if new car cost + negative equity = reasonable (defined above) cost for new car, again, there is no difference. Although the new final cost might be somewhere near MSRP rather than invoice, thus locking you into the car for a long time (which again, is the intent) -- but certainly not making the new car cost like 25% more than it's "worth". Don't forget, we're assuming a relatively small amount of negative equity, 2k.

graphicguy

You're going to do what you're going to do.

Bottom line? You role negative equity into a new car and you're going to be upside down in that new car for a long time.

You're assuming that rolling in negative equity and using rebates to buy that new car at MSRP doesn't sound like such a bad idea. Fact is, if that new car has rebates on it, MSRP means nothing. The market determines the value of the car. Rebates mean that the market value of the car isn't MSRP. Matter of fact, very few new cars market value is MSRP.

Bottom line, rolling over negative equity on your current ride means you're way overpaying for that new car....rebates or not.

Just a couple of examples where this could come back to bite you....

--God forbid, but if you are in a wreck with this new car, and it's totalled, you owe the bank the total note....not what the insurance adjuster is going to write a check for. Now you have no car, but still have the debt.
--you lose your job. You have to dispose of the car. Problem is, you're upside down. Whatever you try to sell the car for won't be anywhere near the what's owed on it.
--probably the most common....you just have to have that new car. Roll the negative equity into that "have to have" new car. 2-3 years from now, you want another new car....for whatever reason. Guess what? You're still upside down. Now you've started a vicious cycle of continuing rolling negative equity over, yet again.....

There are lots of other reasons not to do it, but I think you get the idea. It's NEVER a good idea, no matter how anyone tries to paint the picture.

socala4

However, you have rolled the costs together in this case and ensured that the total is still within the feasable cost range for the NEW car.

That's exactly the outlook that gets people in trouble by using excessive credit. You are focused on the amount of the monthly payment, rather than whether the borrowing is a good idea in the first place. As a consequence, you are creating a situation in which you are perpetually in debt, and creating a greater likelihood that you will be one day unable to pay it.

But as I said: whether there is positive equity or not, the intent is to buy a new car, creating debt.

And the question is -- why do you have this intent?

Bob's implicit point is that if you have so little money that you can't afford to cover the negative equity out of pocket, that's a good sign that you already have too much debt now, so why would you increase your debt load? Rolling debt into larger debt is a good warning sign that your fiscal house is likely not in order, and your priorities may not be in the right place.

ironcladlou

You're going to do what you're going to do

People will rationalize their irrational choices in myriad ways, regardless of the amount of good/contrary advice they pretend to be accepting. Thankfully, I am capable of self restraint, and honestly am taking these suggestions to heart. I am here to learn and think before I act, and this community is condusive to that. It's awesome.

You're assuming that rolling in negative equity and using rebates to buy that new car at MSRP doesn't sound like such a bad idea. Fact is, if that new car has rebates on it, MSRP means nothing. The market determines the value of the car. Rebates mean that the market value of the car isn't MSRP. Matter of fact, very few new cars market value is MSRP.

I think this is the point which I have been missing, and is what makes your further points extremely convincing. I (erroneously) thought that MSRP was on the HIGH (but reasonable) end of cost/value, when in fact it typically seems to be dangerously overpriced (especially on a car with large incentives). I now totally agree that my proposal is a bad idea, and I won't be considering it any further. Thank you all for your patience and thought on it. It's been a real help, and I appreciate it.

In the meantime, I will hit the calculators to project when I will break even on the Scion, and perhaps increase my payments to accelerate it. I need to figure out what the depreciation rate is. Unfortuantely, as you have gathered from my posts, I got a terrible price on it originally (due to my own ignorance) and am now in a very bad position to pay it down to the break even point. But that's a discussion for another section.

Again, thank you all for your comments. I'll see you in another topic, and probably in this one again when it comes time to ACTUALLY find a new ride.

ironcladlou

And the question is -- why do you have this intent?

I don't want to keep straying too off topic, but I wanted to give a reply since this has been asked twice now. I was avoiding the specifics of "why" because I wanted to get through the academic portion of it without having to give my life story.

In short, there is no necessity. It's just an itch like most people get when they are annoyed or displeased with their current car and see what appears to be an opportunity to get another. Having weighed the benefits and consequences through talks here, it's obviously (to me, now) not worth it. And that's fine. It's not going to kill me to drive the thing another year or two.

But it doesn't hurt to reason it out and see what the possibilities are, as long as we're capable of accepting the right choice (no matter how desirable the bad choice may be).

Kirstie_H

By the way, this has been a really interesting and well-conducted conversation. Wish we could just copy the past 20 or so posts and paste them after every time someone asks the "negative equity" question. Great explanations about how the finances play out. Thanks, all!

bobst

"If the negative equity doesn't result in an unmanagable amount"

What may be managable today may not be managable tomorow if your life changes, either by choice or fate.

The less you owe today, the better you are able to cope with surprises tomorrow.

british_rover

Exactly right.

My and my wife are looking to buy a house within the next six months.

I am seriously consdering selling my MINI even though I love it because it would give me a more comfortable debt to income ratio.

If I sold the MINI outright on my own I could probably pay off the note and pick up 5-6 grand. That would be a nice little addition to our downpayment fund.

I still don't want to sell the car but I don't need it. I have only driven it 170 miles since the first of the year since I have a company Demo now.

Just don't know what to do just yet. :mad:

graphicguy

ironclad.....I don't think any of us want to come across as harsh. It's just that many of us have seen what downward spiral this can become when you role negative equity over into another new car.....particulaly, since the one you have is a fine (actually very good) car.

There's a whole thread here at Edmunds dedicated to "I'm upside down with my car loan and can't get up" syndrome.

My son is 20. It seems epidemic, but I'm always shocked to hear one of his acquaintances tell me they have to file banruptcy......based on the very same scenario you propose.

Do yourself a favor. Pay off your car. After that, sock your monthly payment into something interest bearing. Before long, you'll be able to walk into a dealership and pay cash for your next new car.

raybear

Why not just sell the current car privately?

ironcladlou

ironclad.....I don't think any of us want to come across as harsh.

No no no! At no point did I find any of you abrasive or take offense. I found you all honest and frank. And I appreciate it.

As to why don't I sell the car privately? I don't think it's worth what I owe (14.2k), simply put. Maybe some more research and my post in the "What's my car worth" thread will prove me wrong, but even if so, I don't think I'm really prepared for the hassle of private selling.

But again, that's a story for another thread.

jmacoh

I need help...how do you adjust an offer for a "new" car purchase of a "dealer demo"??

I'm talking about the "sold-as-new/remainder of warranty" type of sale. I'm looking at an '06 Pacifica..manager drove for 4,500 miles.

Surely there are some guidlenes to help adjust the price for this type of purchase. ANY help will be appreciated.

Thanks

bretfraz

If the car has been titled, it is legally a used car and should be priced and shopped as such. Your guidlines are used car values and ads for used Pacificas like the one you're interested in.

jmacoh

Wish it were that easy. If it were "used" I could figure it out. Car has not been titled...sitting in dealer's showroom, dealer demo. New car financing/rebates available etc. This is quite common. I remember buying a similarly situated new Ford in '79. Again, there must be some sort of guidelines available to figure out a price adjustment.

tsgeisel

I'd say that you should treat it as if it were used, but in excellent condition. Keep in mind though, that as a demo, it has probably only been driven over short periods, so if the engine needs to be "broken-in", it likely wasn't done properly.

Also, has the oil been changed? How long has it been on the lot, anyway?

In CA, it's got way too many miles on it to be sold as "new"; it has to be sold as a "used" car. Don't let all the new-car promotion items sway you from paying a new car price for it.

audia8q

I'm not familiar with Chrysler's procedures but most mfg don't give dealers any special incentives to make a car a demo.....years ago we got demo incentives to offset the extra miles and pass along decent deals..but no longer. Most people caN get a very similar deal on a brand new model without the miles. Pacifica's are not exactly flying off the shelves right now, so good deals can be had.

You can offer any amount you see fair and I've seen some dealers lose money to sell demo's...but its not the norm.

jmacoh

Thanks for the feedback.

swanny22

Hi,

I am wanting to get everyone opinion on how to get the best deal on a car. Should I look for an Older Car with Low Miles or a Newer Car with High Miles? Both affect the resale value of the car.

For example I am looking at a 99 Pathfinder 4WD SE with Leather, Moonroof, Premium Sound, Running Boards and ect with only 47K miles on it. The interior is in excellent condition and the exterior is in fair condition. One dent but some scratches on it. They are asking 10K for it.

OR--

I would possibly find a 2001 Pathfinder for about the same price but with twice as many miles on it...

What is the best deal???

bretfraz

Most folks will suggest you buy a vehicle with lower miles but age is a factor. In your case I see no appreciable benefit to buying a new Pathy with 2X miles. All that means is big repair $$$$ are gonna hit sooner rather than later. Plus a miley vehicle might need more work upfront just to get it up to snuff (tires, brakes, timing belt, etc).

If we were talking a car 10, 15 or 20 years old, mileage is less of an issue. Any old car is going to need work.

Regardless of what you decide, I'd suggest having the vehicle inspected prior to purchase. That will help you estimate any upfront repair costs and you can work that into your offer or budget.

swanny22

Good Advice. Thanks...

sgtslate

I am sorry but I have no sympathy for you in your chosen field. Every new car I have purchased has been riddled with games and tricks the dealers throw at you. What about your buyer? DOn't you think they have a family to feed and need the lowest price possible? The internet has leveled the playing field that has been always stacked against the consumer. My uncle was a sales manager at a busy Pontiac/GMC dealer and I watched all the games that were played and I can honestly say that car salesman's tarnished reputations are justified. If cars were sold at set prices with reasonable profit, I would have no problem buying knowing that everyone is getting the same deal. People will always be defensive towards you when you are trying to milk them for everything you can.

SLate

bullissalespro

To all members,
I'm sorry, it was not my intent to start
an argument. I think that this place
is set up for all of us to have balanced
information. I was raised that there were
always 2 sides to every story. Now you have
them. I leave it to you to make a decision.

There are good & bad people out there on both
sides of the desk.

You have my word as a man of integrity that
ANY customer of mine has been & will be treated
with the utmost respect & courtacy.

Best Regards
-Ian Bullis
ps.
SGTSlate,
your name implies that you have had some military
background. If so, Thank you for your service!
It's brave men & woman like you that give us the freedome
to have this very message board.
We are in your debt.

graphicguy

While I can appreciate some of the sales people chiming in and the difficulty of their jobs, it's a two sided coin.

Just like the consumer can say "YES" or "NO" to any deal or terms of the deal, so can the dealership.

If you don't want to give the customer what they want for their trade....just say "NO".

If you don't want to throw in accessories as part of the deal....just say "NO".

Until the customer signs the papers and drives the vehicle off the dealership's lot, there is no deal. The dealership/salesperson can say "yes" or "no" to anything proposed and/or negotiated.

Anything that goes on between the time the customer drives onto the dealership's lot, until they drive away is all part of the transaction, IMHO.

socala4

If your out shopping for a car I think It's important to get a complete, balanced plan of action for when you go to the dealership.

If I can summarize your advice to consumers, it seems to be:

-Pay more money -- salespeople and dealers don't earn enough already

-Lay all your cards on the table, but don't demand that the dealer do the same

-Trust the dealer -- he is your "consultant", friend, etc.

-Dealers are great, it's the buyers who are the problem.

Sorry, but that's great advice for the salespeople, but horrible advice to the consumer. Anyone who wants to pull more money out of my pocket for something that I can buy for less is in someone else' corner, not mine.

audia8q

You and I rarely agree on anything....but I think we might be on the same page here. I don't think the salesperson income should play any role in the sales process for the consumer. If the salesperson does his/her job well and professionally the income has a magical way of following right along...