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Buying Tips - How Do I Get the Best Deal?

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Comments

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I would start using a different edward jones guy then.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Hi Isell,

    "correct me if I'm wrong but I think if they accept his offer, he's happy!"

    Sure, I'm happy if our offer is accepted, but I am also happy if it is refused. There are lots of dealers in our area, so I don't mind going somewhere else.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Hi Jip,

    "How long does it usually take under your method to make an offer?"

    About 5 seconds. We walk in, say hello, and give them our written offer.

    "From the time you step out of your car to the time they say yes or no?"

    Maybe 10 or 15 minutes. After that amount of time we leave if they haven't accepted our offer.

    "Also, do you not test drive the car you are prepared to buy?"

    Our offers are contingent on us liking the car after a thorough test drive. If the sales person comes along, we insist that he say nothing for the duration of the test drive.

    "Does the saleperson appear 'offended' when you make this kind of offer?"

    No. They are pros and they know how to handle all types of customers.

    "it seems that more often than not the first dealership you go to accepts your offer."

    Yes, our first offers were accepted when we bought our 2003 Acura RSX and our 2005 Accord. In both cases, we walked out to the parking lot and the salesman came after us. These are the nicest cars we have ever owned! In earlier purchases, we had to go to 2-3 dealers before our offer was accepted.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Lets just say that one day I had ten customers come in.

    Side note: Man what I would give for 10 customers in one day with my closing ratios but anyway.

    If five of those ten were bobst type deals I bet I would close four of the five. One of the five would not close for one of two reasons.

    A very unrealistic price or just not a Land Rover person.
  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    I have to agree with you Bobst...make your offer and either get a Yes or No. I have done it your way several times and it is (as you have said) either a Yes or No. When I get a NO,I just simply thank them and leave, and, yes, more than once I have been called back on the way out....and several times the next day on the phone (if they have my phone#).
    Socala... your method probably works, also...but...it is the grinding part I like to eliminate. I really feel, that if a buyer feels he (or she) received a good deal, then that is a good deal... as long as he (or she) is happy, then, just get on with a happy life experience.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,328
    I have to agree with you Bobst...make your offer and either get a Yes or No.

    The bad thing about that is that if you get a yes right off the bat you paid to much. Rules of thumb for negotiation is never accept the first offer and never make the first offer. The last car I bought if I would have done it Bobst way I would have paid a few hundred dollars more than I actually did.

    Socala... your method probably works, also...but...it is the grinding part I like to eliminate.

    No need to grind when you negotiate, if you do you're doing something wrong. In the example above where I bought my last car the entire negotiation process to a whole of maybe 15 minutes. I don't advocate spending an hour to get $100 off of a car, but I do advocate testing the waters. The right phrase and/or actions can bring down a price and if it doesn't it doesn't. Just dont press it.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Socala... your method probably works...

    I think that we should define "works" here.

    It is very easy to buy a car (and other stuff, for that matter) -- you pay money, and you get the merchandise. I realize that the salespeople act as if it is some sort of privilege and an achievement to leave the dealership with one, but it isn't.

    In that sense, all these methods work. If you want to follow the dealer's lead and let him control the deal as he likes, you will end up owning a car. If you do a take-it-or-leave-it offer, and keep raising your price at each successive dealership, you will end up owning a car. If you negotiate using methods typically used by professional negotiators, as I suggest, you will end up owning a car.

    So the question isn't whether which method works -- they all do -- and you can evaluate a method by whether you end up with new wheels, because every method will do that. The question is whether you get the best deal possible in buying that car, an important factor because some people will manage to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars more for the exact same car than would someone else.

    Bob's method is good if you are so fearful of negotiation that you will make serious mistakes. But the price you get will probably be good or possibly very good, but likely not as well as you could have had you negotiated, for the reasons that I mentioned.

    Negotiating as I would suggest, which requires planning ahead for the give and take of the process, should get you the best price, but you do need to execute properly to get maximum benefit. It requires more dialogue, and therefore demands a bit more finesse, but not at such a lofty level that most of you reading this couldn't do it if you try.

    ...it is the grinding part I like to eliminate

    But I'm not grinding. Remember, the salespeople on the thread are trying to discourage from going for the best price, and one way they do that is to try to make customers believe that negotiating is difficult, painful or distasteful. That's just a tactic they use to get you to pay a higher price that they'd prefer that you pay, but good negotiation actually minimizes your need to walk out of a dealership, and will speed up the process once they realize that they've done about as well with you as they can do.
  • dad23dad23 Member Posts: 870
    Interesting discussion on KHOW by a local consumer advocate on car buying. It sounds like he has a salesman on with him. He also has a webite: Tom Martino - Troubleshooter Network
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Remember, the salespeople on the thread are trying to discourage from going for the best price, and one way they do that is to try to make customers believe that negotiating is difficult, painful or distasteful.

    Actually your the only one saying these things...I don't recall anyone from the auto industry discouraging anyone from getting a price.....The rub comes from your belief that there is only one way to buy a car (we've read it over and over) and if you don't use the socala way your getting screwed....If it works for you fine, but its very one directional and many buyers don't have one way needs.

    As I have mentioned before, for many typical consumers your way won't be as nearly effective as the bobst method. For the edmunds regular the socala way could be effective. Most buyers are not nearly as informed as the regulars who post on here...they also do not represent the car buying public as a whole...
  • sc00bssc00bs Member Posts: 87
    This entire thread is interesting and I would like to ask you all some more questions.

    A key tenet of negotiation is that you should try to get the other party to make the first number.

    Im trying to learn all this stuff, and had a question about this....doesn't the dealership typically have a number already presented to you by having an asking price on the car either used or new? So wouldn't that already put them at the disadvantage? They are the first one to give out a number of some sort? NOt only that if you do your research you would know that most dealerships put a really high asking price on their cars (im talking used here) so they can take say $2,000 off the price and the uninformed buyer would think, hey thats a great deal!!!! Instead the deal was not so great because the market price really for the car was much much less????

    For example, a sales manager anxious to move a unit to hit his numbers may even take a zero profit or slight loss on your deal if he can hit his other goals. You will probably never know exactly why he was motivated to do that deal at that time, but you'll never find it if you do all the offering.

    So if you probably will never know then why sweat over it. If you have a good solid offer based on market values at the time and you know what your bottom line is all the behind the scenes stuff won't matter, right? That is why its best to low ball the offer in the first place, just in case you are that special person who will be the deal breaker for the dealerships bonus, or the dealership has been sitting on a car for a long time and its either your price or the auction block price.

    Just an example of something I see very often.

    Lets use an Impala. Dealership A has an 05 Base Impala. It was a rental car and they were auctioned off in droves. The town is not flooded with them, but surrounding towns within a 50 mile radius are. The local town has an asking price of $17,995. They get that number from using KBB Excellent Condition Retail. They tell the person looking at the car that they could do $15,995, thats $2,000 off their asking price.

    The buyer has already done their research and knows that other dealerships in the radius have them (and multiples) and are ASKING $11,998. They also know that TOPS on Edmunds for cars in Average condition (these were rentals remember not one ownder cream puffs) lists for $12,500. Ebay has some also, but they are not selling at the sellers reserve prices but are topping out at $8500 - $9500.

    So whats your asking price? What is a reasonable sale price for a car like this?
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,328
    doesn't the dealership typically have a number already presented to you by having an asking price on the car either used or new?

    Technically yes, but since few cars are sold for the sticker price the reality of the situation is that the asking price is unknown to the buyer. That is unless you are in a one price no haggle place.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    doesn't the dealership typically have a number already presented to you by having an asking price on the car either used or new?

    That's what they want you to believe, but don't fall into that trap. Unless the car is very hot and the MSRP has some relevance to the marketplace, the MSRP is something that you should ignore when negotiating a deal. A dealer who grunts and points at the window sticker for his opening gambit is not negotiating with you, he's playing you.

    So wouldn't that already put them at the disadvantage?

    As Snake points out, it doesn't, because the MSRP is probably so unreasonable that its only purpose for the dealer is to get you to think that your haggle needs to begin at a much higher point than you really need to. The MSRP is there to serve them, not you.

    As a buyer, your goal should be to focus on low numbers, and then increase them slowly if you have to. If you were selling, then you would be wise to do the opposite, and that's what the dealer is doing. I don't blame them for trying, but it doesn't mean that you need to follow their lead.

    Lets use an Impala...

    General advice for used cars, particularly for those that aren't very hot: Start out around the wholesale KBB and Edmunds figure, and don't pay much above that. The chances is very high that the dealer paid significantly below wholesale KBB for that car, which means that the wholesale KBB figure very likely already has a considerable profit built into that.

    For cars such as Impalas, which get dumped out of fleets in massive quantities, you can bet that those things are very cheap on the wholesale circuit, and there's no reason to pay anywhere near retail KBB or Edmunds for one.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    If you acutally read Real Word Trade in Values you would see that the numbers terry gives are solid real world numbers. KBB wholesale is a joke and everyone should know that. On 90% of the cars out there any value that approaches KBB wholesale is an over allowance.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    I don't get the references to Dairy Queen.
    Are they owned by the mob or something :confuse:

    On a side note, don't waste your money on an M&M Monster Blizzard...they suck! IMO ;)
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,109
    ... I like the MOO-latte... Caramel or hazelnut..

    Of course, I always order the Mega-MOO... I'm a growing boy.... :surprise:

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    If you acutally read Real Word Trade in Values you would see that the numbers terry gives are solid real world numbers.

    I have read it. What he's really doing is preparing consumers to willingly and eagerly accept less (hey, we're being "real world" here, right?), instead of giving useful insights about how to effectively negotiate a better trade-in value.

    It's very easy to pay too much, and to not make enough on a trade-in. Instead of spending your energies getting rabid about my posts, why not provide the consumer some advice that gets them to the very lowest price possible? When the thread asks, "How Do I Get the Best Deal?", the "I" in the equation is the customer, not the salesperson.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Neither Kbb, CIA, Nada, Galves, TRW, IBM, AAA, Better Homes and Garden or the Naacp predicate the values of vehicles -- auctions do ... oop's you already knew that, right.?

    I've already pointed out on this board that dealers generally pay well below wholesale KBB for used cars, which is why they should ignore the retail KBB when buying one.

    But still, you're only doing your brethren a favor by egging on customers to take it on the chin before walking onto the lot. You're lowering the expectations of the customer before he has even started, which helps you.

    And customers who relate their carbuying experiences here already know that this happens. The difference is that they're generally complaining about how they took it in the shorts, not boasting about how "real world" they were.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    You still don't get it. Do you know what the biggest challenge to over come for both consumers and dealers is?

    An over realestic expectation of what a vehicle is worth. This expectation is propigated by the online prices guides that are generally no good or if they are any good only work for vehicles with average miles. None of them deduct enough for miles on a higher mileage vehicle and none of them add enough for low miles on a lower mileage vehicle. Also price guides do not move quickly enough to reflect seasonal changes in the prices of vehicles.

    For example everyone knows convertiables take a big hit in the winter up in the northeast but pricing guides never refelect that. On the other side most 4wd vehicles take a slightly smaller hit during the height of summer.

    With gas prices the way they are right now the market for five year and older SUVs has collapsed completly. The people looking to spend less then 10,000 dollars on a SUV can't afford the gas to run one and so the values have dropped faster then you can imagine.

    Price guides to not reflect that.

    If you want to use KBB wholesale as a trade in value then you better be ready to use KBB retail value as a transaction value. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

    You just have this conspiracy theory that we are all working together trying to get people to pay more for their vehicles and accept less for their trade. That is what I see in each one of your posts at least.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    ...Price guides to not reflect that

    Notice that I never once claimed that they did. (You folks seem intent to argue against things that I've never said.)

    But still, your motives are clear. You are very quick to get consumers here to lower their expectations for their trades, yet get hostile when we speak of going for a piece of the holdback or the factory-to-dealer incentives. You consistently pitch the dealer's side of the story, while encouraging buyers to avoid getting the lowest price as if they should be happy to pay more.

    It's not a conspiracy, but you are pitching here in largely the same way that you would pitch at the dealership, rather than stepping outside of yourself and trying to give consumers an inside track to optimizing the deal. I don't blame you for trying, but that helps you, not the customer.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Remember Rovers here no holdback or rebates here buddy.

    But whatever arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall. If you have never actually been to a dealer auction then you have no idea how the values of used cars are generated.

    I just looked at some of our used vehicle inventory and by and large we paid well over KBB value for almost all of them. For some we actually paid close to KBB private party value. That is because these are all very low mileage perfect condition Rovers and they are hard to find. When you buy one at an auction their is competition for them and the prices get bid up. That is not going to happen for all vehicles but it is going to happen to a lot of low mileage cars that are non-fleet vehicles.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    If you have never actually been to a dealer auction then you have no idea how the values of used cars are generated.

    Once again, you are debating something I have never said. I've already stated in other contexts that dealers don't generally pay KBB wholesale, they pay a lot less.

    And I have been to dealer auctions, I've known a couple of dealers and went along for the ride to see how it worked. But even if I hadn't, I'd still know that this is the case.


    The funny thing is that I am actually supporting you in your statement, I'm just taking away a different result. You're pitching the dealer's side ("Consumer, take less and be happy about it") while I'm taking the consumer's side, as I warn them to be prepared to work to get as much as you can, and to not assume that the dealer pays wholesale KBB for his inventory when shopping for a used car.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    You said, "Bob's method is good if you are so fearful of negotiation that you will make serious mistakes."

    Yep, you are exactly right. I want to avoid negotiations because, based on my past experiences in life, I know I can make some poor decisions if I have to think on the spur of the moment. I get confused very easily.

    These days, however, my disability doesn't hurt me that much. There is so much wonderful information available and I can determine exactly what I want to buy and how much I want to pay before talking with a sales person. It makes car buying so much more enjoyable.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    I want to avoid negotiations because, based on my past experiences in life, I know I can make some poor decisions if I have to think on the spur of the moment. I get confused very easily.

    The thing is, Bob, is that you strike me as a very sharp and savvy guy. I believe that you would do a fine job of it, and that you're selling yourself short.

    And in any case, you don't to be a genius to do it. Yes, extra prepation is necessary because there is more of an exchange and you must prepare for it, but it's not very difficult. I would hope that you'd give it a fair shot, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised and pleased after you've done it.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Yes, extra prepation is necessary because there is more of an exchange and you must prepare for it, but it's not very difficult. I would hope that you'd give it a fair shot, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised and pleased after you've done it.

    There you go again..telling bobst that his way isnt good and your way is better...who cares?
    why would bobst stop using a buying process that works for him?? did you ever think that maybe somebody can do it better than you in less time and less hassle??
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    why would bobst stop using a buying process that works for him?

    Because it could save him money, and reduce his need to walk out of dealerships. The former is clearly a good thing for the consumer, and the latter makes things more convenient.

    Too bad this bothers you. Bob seems openminded and willing to trade tips with good intentions in mind, it's the dealers who are blowing gaskets and working themselves into a tizzy about it.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Because it could save him money,

    maybe..maybe not. But you really have no idea. Your just speculating. Its your assumption that he didnt do well in the first place that is somewhat offensive. You spend alot of time trying to convince us that your the only one knows how to buy a car... He has said over and over that he was pleased with the deal or he would have purchased elsewhere...I don't care if he paid MSRP+$2000 or got the car for $4000 under cost...the only thing that matters is the buyer is happy with the sale and process...the profit of the deal is irrelevant.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    maybe..maybe not. But you really have no idea.

    Given that negotiation tactics are tied to human behavior, it's actually quite likely to have happened. For example, avoiding the naming of the first number is fundamental to negotiation, and any negotiator will understand why doing this usually increases prices. (I've explained it as well.)

    Pretty basic: If you don't do the stuff that is tried-and-true as being most effective, you are most likely to get a less desirable result. I'm not rewriting the book on haggling, I'm just citing some pages from it.

    Just as you have sales training, consumers benefit from purchase training. I'm sure your sales manager doesn't believe that every sales technique is equally effective.
  • bigdveedubgirlbigdveedubgirl Member Posts: 402
    WHAT IS UP WITH THE CONSPIRICY THEORIES???

    The salespeople, intentionally give advice so the consumer pays more.....

    Terry gives real- life trade numbers that are lower so the consumer gets their thinking down.....

    The salespeople in this forum never tell you how to get the lowest price......

    Enough Already.

    Socal, your methods are not right or wrong, but they are right for you. Bobst Method is not right or wrong but works for him. My method is not right or wrong but it works for me.

    What is wrong is belittling (sorry about spelling) people for not squeezing every last penny out of the dealer.Discrediting the salespeople every chance you can. WHat you are doing is further spreading the propagana of fear, which what many of these websites (except for edmunds and choice few) do. You make them feel that unless people do not follow your methods they are going to get their kid on a milk carton.

    One more thing ask anyone, auction data is the most accurate of all pricing guides.....
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    why I stopped tracking the purchasing stratagies and stories thread.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Another post that doesn't provide a "buying tip."

    Is there a point when we'll start getting these tips from the other side of the table? The advice so far seems to be:

    -Name the first number
    -Tell us in great detail what motivates you to buy a car
    -Trade in for well under KBB, and be happy about it
    -Don't worry about our holdback, or whatever motivates us to close

    That's exactly what dealers do everyday in the showroom. That's not a "tip", it's just an online version of what you already do everyday, i.e. the stuff that customers already hate.

    People read these things to learn how to maneouver around your everyday routine, not to fall into it. If the consumers are going to be the only ones who are looking out for each other, then I guess that's how it has to be.
  • bigdveedubgirlbigdveedubgirl Member Posts: 402
    1. Do your homework.
    2. Test drive on a different day than when you negotiate.
    (Therefore you are not high on the ether when you work numbers)
    3. Do not bring a third baseman, (I have seen this ploy of bringing 6 people to try to negotiate at the same time and the customer paid more than what they wanted 8/10 times.)
    3. Go to Carmax before you trade or get other buyers,(people who will write a check for your car)
    4. Pay your bills and have good credit.
    5. Don't be a pompous a** going into a dealership, because it is supposed to be fun, and you will make it miserable, and you will end up paying for your attitude, one way or another......

    I think That was pretty specific.

    I have given these tips over and over again. You must not have been around
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Socal, I don't think you are trying to put anyone down. I think you are sincerely trying to help people. It is just that some of us are very happy the way we are and we don't feel like changing.

    I know how it feels. I keep advising some of my fellow golfers to try the ten-finger grip. I think it is great for us older players who need more hand action because our swings have gotten shorter over the years. In the last ten years, I only have two converts.

    I remember there was one poster who thanked you very much for your advice, so you have been more successful helping people than I have.
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    Let me start by stating some of my thoughts, and feel free to tell me where I might do better. I am not is car sales, I just buy when we feel we need to.
    I study the safety records of the vehicles, and the repair, and depreciation index. I have made a point to go looking at the end of the month. I will and have gone on raining days or days the weather is not good. I check the value books KBB NADA etc. Call the bank and check interest rates before I go looking. I go on line and search inventories of the dealers before I go to any dealer. I have been very pleased with DaimlerChrysler vehicles, and these are the Vehicles I have bought for the last12 years. I can search for these on line quite easy.
    I hate rebates! Rebates are nothing but a return of an overcharge. I belong to Farm Beaur, AARP, and I AM RETIRED
    Navy,so I do get some extra discounts. I try not to trade in vehicles, but sell them my self. I try to see the sales board on a lookie leu around the dealership before I actually come into the dealership to get serious.
    I think that maybe I could do better next time. Any advise will be welcome. Thanks

    Farout
  • clady0112clady0112 Member Posts: 1
    Someone please help me understand what is good mileage on a car? I am interested in buying my first car and I gotta admit this is becoming a headache. lol. When I think I found the "perfect car" I am told that the mileage is not good on it. Also please explain the new buyer "lingo" and what research needs to be done.

    Thanks in advance :)
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Not sure what you mean exactly by "good mileage" but this website from the federal government might help you. You can rank and compare cars from both current and past years, and learn all kinds of other stuff about hybrids, ethanol, etc.:

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov
  • cobbgacobbga Member Posts: 6
    Socal is 100% right in his approach. As a consumer, your first and important idea is squeeze every penny possible from the dealer. Isn't that what every salesman is trained to do to the consumer? Socal and internet in general making the consumers' lives easy by giving them negotiating tips.

    I personally, do not know any of the sales people that post here. In real life, every single Car Salesman/woman, yes every single one, I met is a crook and fraud. There might be an honest(oxymoron) car salesman. But I am yet to encounter him/her. Someone here posted about how life is short and its not worth living sweating small stuff. Is life worth living by screwing customers for imaginary etching/rustproofing/doc fee etc? I am sure the car salesman sleep well at night knowing how many customers they scammed that day. Oh and by the way if the money is not good, get out and get a real, honest job.

    Socal you are doing one heck of a job. Keep up the good fight.
  • sc00bssc00bs Member Posts: 87
    In real life, every single Car Salesman/woman, yes every single one, I met is a crook and fraud.

    I don't think it's the salespeople who are the crooks and frauds. It's the higher ups who insist that a dealership be high pressure sales. The ones who make the decision of how to take advantage of the customers. The salespeople are just doing their jobs.

    Has anyone watched The King of Cars on A&E?? That is an eye opener. Lots of stupid people buying cars using monthly payments rather than negotiating prices. Yikes!!!!
  • cticti Member Posts: 131
    I remember there was one poster who thanked you very much for your advice, so you have been more successful helping people than I have.

    Hey, no fishing for compliments! :D

    I was all set to use your method (combined with some other good advice here) when I bought my car in Feb. '05. The dealership offered a price lower than my 'Bobst' price so I accepted without even making an offer.

    In retrospect, I think I missed some things that might have enabled me to get a lower price, but it's not lke I knew of them at the time so it doesn't really matter.

    In fact, if it weren't for the 'bobst' method, I doubt I would have even gone to the dealership in the first place. I've had two experiences at dealerships, both unpleasant. One, a miserable experience at a Honda dealership trying (and failing) to buy a new Civic. Four Square, nuff said.

    The other at a VW dealership leasing a New Beetle (60-month lease :cry:). It was successful only in the sense that we left with a car, not that we got a good price. This failure was completely our fault. Don't go in unprepared! It was my wife's money, so it's not like I had much say anyway.

    So I will say, "Thanks, Mr. bobst."
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,328
    As a consumer, your first and important idea is squeeze every penny possible from the dealer.

    No it isn't, There is something called the law of diminishing return which states that every time to get more you have to expend even more. This applies to negotiations too. So it is easier to get them to come down the first $1,000 then it is to get them to come down the next $1,000 and so on. You eventually get to the point where you can get them to come down additional money but the time and effort of it doesn't make it worth it. In other words don't spend an hour or more to get them to come down $50 in price.

    In real life, every single Car Salesman/woman, yes every single one, I met is a crook and fraud.

    That is a completely unfair generalization.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Not everyone lives busy hectic lives to where they couldn't squeeze that last penny until Lincoln gets a headache. To a lot of people that last $50 might be worth an extra hour , not me...but to some people.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,328
    To a lot of people that last $50 might be worth an extra hour

    And those are the people Isell talks about watching every nickel. Hectic life or not I rather spend that hour walking the dog in the woods, sending time with the wife, alongside a river fishing or a multitude of other things.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Hectic life or not I rather spend that hour walking the dog in the woods, sending time with the wife, alongside a river fishing or a multitude of other things.

    Not me! Obviously, I prefer sitting in this discussion and removing tons of personally-directed comments and generally insulting posts every day, including Sundays. Glad I don't have to worry about how I'd fill those empty hours :(

    Can we try to focus on helping members who post questions rather than redundicizing (<--made-up word) for pages on end? Let's remember to make this a welcoming environment for new members and novice buyers who just might want purchasing advice from a number of perspectives... consumer & dealer alike.

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  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    People can spend an extra hour to save $50 at the dealership and still have time to spend time with their wife, kids, whatever...if they manage their time properly. Maybe use that $50 to charter a boat for a short fishing trip(group rates of course), or use that $50 to buy flea/tick drops after the dog walk thru the woods, buy the wife a dozen roses.

    To each his own. But, I wouldn't categorize everyone who watched every penny in a negative manner, the way you and isell do. It's a generalization... which you have posted is unfair.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    To be honest with you, I cringe whenever I read these "$50" and "$100" comments.

    Unfortunately, we've inherited that rhetoric from the dealers who spend so much effort here trying to discourage negotiation. One of their tactics is to try tell us that negotiation doesn't do much good, claiming that it takes two hours to save $50.

    Here's a thought -- a good negotiator actually spends LESS time buying a car. The sucker who thinks that he needs to become the salespersons' best friend is a mark, and they will squeeze that customer for everything they can get, because they can.

    The weak customer will be the one who gets maximum bounce on the "turnover" process, and the one whom they will push the hardest to buy the mop and glo, ding protection, etc., etc. because that buyer is dripping money. If you are a weak buyer, the dealer is in no hurry to have you leave -- he sees you as an ATM from which he can make more withdrawals.

    Here has been my experience -- once the "relationship building" had been accomplished and the real haggling has begun, it becomes more obvious to the sales team that maybe I'm not quite as stupid as they first thought. (I don't rub it in, but it becomes obvious as the discussion continues.)

    By the end of the (generally relatively short) haggle, it has become fairly clear that there will not be much more cash coming out of my pockets on this day, so they eventually throw up their hands and stop, because they have done what they can do. At that stage, they are pretty eager to wrap it up, take what money they can get and move on.

    Net result: Not only have I saved anywhere from $500-2000 compared to others buying the same car (I base this figure on forums such as this one), but it probably took me less time than many of those other buyers. I have seen accounts about other buyers who both spent 3-4 hours at the dealership AND spent hundreds more than I did, while I saved money and left earlier. They would have both saved money and time by negotiating properly.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    That's very kind of you to say, and I hear where you're coming from. That being said, I don't particularly hate the dealers, but I do recognize that their tactics are often designed to take advantage of naive buyers who don't understand finance or the car business.

    Fortunately, if you learn how the tactics work, managing the process is quite easy. A tactic that is understood is not a tactic.
  • bigdveedubgirlbigdveedubgirl Member Posts: 402
    I think to each his own.

    I am a very frugal grocery shopper, I clip coupons, I read all the ads. Clothing or shoes, I will shop around and price shop. Electronics, the same. Cars, I will do all the necessary reasearch to get the lowest price possible.

    To be very honest, the way our pay scale is, $50 dollars Gross can make a bigger impact on me than on the client in some cases. For example our commision is a mini if the gross falls under a certain amount. The way I do my job, I am worth it, and I get frustrated, when I am providing a service, and we are $50-100 away on price, after I give up everything and the customer threatens to walk. If someone is making the experience enjoyable and valuing your time, cut them a little slack. I understand if your salesperson is unprofessional, but for us good guys out there, help us out!
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    I thank Bob, too. He's a good guy, and I'm sure that he has also helped people here.

    My critique of Bob's advice is not a criticism of Bob as a person, but just my feedback about what I see as the pros and cons of his recommended methods.

    That being said, if you have absolutely no desire to negotiate, and don't mind possibly paying more as a trade-off for having less dialogue with the dealer, his methodology is sound. I'm simply adding that good negotiation should generally get a lower price, and preparing for it will make it painless and productive. It's much easier than it may seem.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    I am a very frugal grocery shopper, I clip coupons, I read all the ads. Clothing or shoes, I will shop around and price shop. Electronics, the same. Cars, I will do all the necessary reasearch to get the lowest price possible.

    To be very honest, the way our pay scale is, $50 dollars Gross can make a bigger impact on me than on the client in some cases. For example our commision is a mini if the gross falls under a certain amount. The way I do my job, I am worth it, and I get frustrated, when I am providing a service, and we are $50-100 away on price, after I give up everything and the customer threatens to walk. If someone is making the experience enjoyable and valuing your time, cut them a little slack. I understand if your salesperson is unprofessional, but for us good guys out there, help us out!


    OK, so you admit it -- the money really does matter to you.

    Which is fine, by the way, of course the money should matter to you. It's your livelihood and your way of keeping score, so to speak.

    However, the same issues apply to us. Money is a limited resource, and for every $100 that the consumer overpays, he probably needs to earn another $150 to get that money. (Whatever we buy is purchased with post-tax dollars.)

    If consumers want to leave that money on your table, that is ultimately their business...but I am going to strongly advise them against doing that. And since the amounts in question are often in the range of several hundred to a few thousand dollars, not just $100, I'll be even more inclined to remind them of why this is not such a great idea for them.

    I understand that this does not help you, but I'm offering Buying Tips, not selling advice. I'm sure that you don't really need my advice, anyway, as you were given professional sales training, so you already know exactly what I'm talking about. The consumer deserves a fair shot at getting an education of his own that will help him to make sure that all of that sales training doesn't come at his expense.
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    cobbga: I am not in sales of any kind, so what I say is from a perspective other than sales. What you say in such general wide scope terms about car sales persons and how none of them are honest, and out to screw people, says a lot about yourself. Your world view is not trusting of anyone. That's really not to your disadvantage, and you most likely are telling us that you have a problem with these issues. Trusting people until they do something to brake that trust is what a reasonable person will do. You might consider think what in you past makes you such a non-trusting, angry person.

    Farout
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,328
    But there is one problem, there is no guarantee that you can get them down that extra $50 at all, so your hour spent might br for nothing. There gets to the point where its not worth going for a little something that may not happen.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

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