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Buying Tips - How Do I Get the Best Deal?

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    socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    That's exactly right in not getting into a "power struggle" over who has the correct numbers. Gives dealer the opportunity for the, "well, let's split the difference" ploy.

    Bingo. "Split the difference" generally works to the benefit of the seller than the buyer, because "spliting" actually moves the price toward in the direction of one party. (Remember that when you're selling stuff at a garage sale, and you want to complete the deal on that ugly lamp that you got from your ex-mother-in-law...)

    The salepeople and salesmanager were nice individuals to deal with. But, that didn't mean they still didn't try to take the $3,000 rebate off MSRP instead of invoice. They were trying to do their job...and I was trying to do mine.

    It's a good outlook. No need to get resentful, just work the deal to your benefit, and expect the dealer to do the same. It's just business.

    I don't know if this was wise on the part of the salesmanager or not. But, at one point that we(wife and I) were getting up to leave(over price)the salesmanager asked us to wait. I'll never forget what he said, " Jip...95% of the people who say they will go home for whatever reason and then come back...never do. We can work this out."

    At that point in your haggle, that was a smart move on his part. He kept you in the dealership, which at that stage almost guaranteed that you'd buy the car. It was a display of vulnerability of sorts, but in a sense, he also clinched it at the same time, as your failure to leave was essentially a form of commitment (or he would hope that it felt that way to you.)

    A good salesperson has to, at some point of the deal, go for the close. (Your typical training guide will advise that you eventually need to "ask for the sale.")

    At that juncture, his goal was to close you, price was now a secondary consideration to completion. You had probably passed what I call his "point of no return" some point earlier, but then he was ready to make it obvious to you to ensure a close. He made you feel like a winner, which shows you that he knew how to do his job. Whether you cut the cheapest deal on earth or overpaid by leaps and bounds, he was smart to make you feel good about it at the end.

    If he had done this very early on, then you could say that he was a poor negotiator. But it sounds as if that he knew exactly what he was doing.
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    audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    if we(consumers) could get a real life "demonstration" of this type of diologue and exchange between a salesman and a potential car buyer.

    It's not a bad idea...I'm sure it could help some people. But, its sorta like watching golf. It looks easy until you get on the first tee... ;)
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    thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    i appreciate the help you offer to various members of the board. what i don't appreciate is the seemingly snide and offstandish way in which you describe salespeople and their "tactics". i am a former salesperson, and dealing with people who come in with a chip on their shoulder is the worst. i understand that even though all the sales training tells us to gain the customers trust and all that - in the end its business - and its about how much you want to spend, and how much the dealer is willing to sell it at.

    i do think you undervalue the importance of being happy with a deal, even if there may be a few bucks left on the table. people pay for convenience. its easier for us to have a pizza delivered, even though we have to pay a tip, than to go out and pick it up. its easier for us to go out to eat, pay more for one plate of food than we would for a weeks worth of groceries. its easier for us to buy a $75 sweater than it is to buy $5 yarn and knit one. what the salespeople here are saying is not to overspend for the value of having a pleasant and quick transaction - but that sometimes its just not worth the hassle. to some, it is, and thats fine. some people just want convenient.

    i was the internet manager at my store when i worked there, and the owner wanted me to not put pricing in my emails, and tell people to stop in or call, and we'd work something out. i did research on edmunds to see what CONSUMERS wanted, and found out that they dont respond to emails with out price. and if we DID offer a price, we really only got one shot. i ended up pricing everything at invoice or below right off the bat. i know that some people would say giving a number just allows a person to shop it at other dealers, but if i didnt even give a number in the first place, they wouldn't have come in.

    anyways, socal - while i often find myself frustrated at you for speaking the way you do about salespeople, and saying they are all using these "tactics" trying to get every penny out of their pockets...i do appreciate the time you take to offer your advice to the less educated regarding the process. however, if you could, back off just a little bit on the generalizations of salespeople. i was nothing but honest with everyone i worked with, and i am ashamed that i have to be lumped in with the greasy slimeballs that do exist out there. a lot of us really work hard to do the best we can for our customers. a little credit is nice once in a while. its tough always being a punching bag...

    regards,

    thene :)
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    phil_in_socalphil_in_socal Member Posts: 28
    hello, looking for topic to properly post this question to and this is the closest one i can find. i apologize if off somewhat.

    i'm basically looking into helping a relative obtain a lease based on deals available out there. i've never leased before but in the last couple of weeks had done research on the in & outs, so basically i'm almost clueless (-:

    my question is, if i'm to negotiate a lease where i'm only to put out the 1st month lease and dmv fee on a program that's (for example) being advertised with an acquisition fee of lets say $700, if a dealer take my offer with $0 cap cost reduction (plus deal of lets say 10% off msrp on my base cap cost), 1st month lease and dmv fee only being due at drive off.

    what happens to the acquisition fee (bank fee) and other costs (e.g. doc prep fee, etc...)? are these costs added to the adjusted cap cost, if so how are these factored in? what would be the proper way of approching this at negotiation?

    thanks in adv for help.
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    graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,670
    Still lots of "hand wringing" about buying a car.

    Maybe I don't view it as that hard. Most people have the information available to see what any particular car, in their area, is selling for. Find a dealership/salesperson your comfortable with. Call them up and tell them up front a time you'd like to visit them. Based on the research here and elsewhere, decide how much you want to spend on that car. If it's too low, you'll know because no one will accept your offer. If it's too high, you'll have plenty of people here telling you you paid too much.

    Personally, I decide on the car I want BEFORE walking into the dealership. Like bobst, I predicate any deal based on the fact that the test drive of the car meets my expectations.

    If your dealer has an abundance of the model your looking at, you're probably (not always) looking at a deal a few hundred over invoice (maybe under invoice if it's something that's not popular). If it's a hot model (like it sounds like the Honda Fit is right now), you're going to be closer to MSRP. I would still offer a few hundred under MSRP for a hot model to see if the dealership "bites". If you want "stuff" (floor mats, etching, etc) thrown into the deal, make that part of your offer.

    As someone said earlier, if it takes longer than 15-20 minutes to get some sort of agreement, you're wasting your time.

    I guess its more of a confidence thing. I'm confident that the offer I make is a good one....for me....and ultimately for the dealer since they get to sell a unit.

    Whether I'm at the grocery store, jewelry store, the furniture store or the car dealership, I won't buy anything unless I feel it's a good deal/value. Why someone would buy something they don't feel comfortable buying (whether it be because of price, the way they're treated, lack of trust from who they're buying from, etc) is something I can't comprehend.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
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    graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,670
    phil....all the fees can be rolled into the lease payment. Or, if you tell the dealer up front, you want to pay for those out of pocket, it will have the net effect of lowering the monthly lease payment.

    Sounds like you're trying to get a deal with the least amount out of pocket as possible. Nothing wrong with that.

    Just remember, by rolling those fees into the lease payment, you're essentially paying interest on those fees.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
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    jack47jack47 Member Posts: 312
    Good post.

    As Fox TV would say...fair and balanced.
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    isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    An excellent post!
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    socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    i appreciate the help you offer to various members of the board.

    Well, that's nice of you to say. (But why do I think that there is a "but" coming?...)

    what i don't appreciate is the seemingly snide and offstandish way in which you describe salespeople and their "tactics"

    (Oops.)

    Fair enough, but why did you put tactics in quotes?

    Of course, they use tactics. Salespeople in most professions are trained to convert shoppers to buyers, and are paid based upon the sales that they make. Let's not pretend that salespeople reinvent the wheel everytime they go to work -- they learn how to sell, and some methods are more effective than others. If salespeople can learn how to sell, so customers should learn how to buy.

    i do think you undervalue the importance of being happy with a deal

    I am one of the happiest people posting here, I actually enjoy saving money, and helping others to do the same. I don't know Jipster in "real life", but when he reported here that he used a quick negotiation tactic that he learned here to save a few hundred bucks on a home improvement purchase, it pleased me to see that he got to keep some more cash for himself and his family. When consumers such as Snakeweasel, Golic, Bob and myself helped to save another consumer more than $2,500 on her new car, I'd say that's another small win for the little guy.

    As a customer, I am happiest when I save money. The consumers who you find who are the unhappiest are the ones who realized that they paid too much. And they usually wasted more time, and were on the receiving end of more insults from the sales staff than I have been.

    i was nothing but honest with everyone i worked with, and i am ashamed that i have to be lumped in with the greasy slimeballs that do exist out there.

    It's not an issue of honesty vs. dishonesty, or being nice versus sleazy, but of buyers learning how to negotiate.

    As I would in a professional business negotiation, I will adjust my tactics to match the individual styles of the members of the sales team at a dealership (they do vary somewhat), but at the end of the day, the ultimate goal of any car purchase of mine is to pay the lowest price. From my standpoint, it's about the money, and I want to keep as much of it as possible, no matter who you are.
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    em701em701 Member Posts: 1
    A Subaru Forester I test drove--pretty much exactly the car I want--was priced at about 3% below invoice (after rebate). A nice price, I thought, but what might they try to tack onto that cost? If that's the price they were offering, could I make a slightly lower offer? Or, negotiate for a couple of extras I might want? I live in a smallish town (an hour from a smallish city), and the dealer had about a dozen or more Foresters on the lot, with some 07s already arriving.

    Any advice from the readers?
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    socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    A Subaru Forester I test drove--pretty much exactly the car I want--was priced at about 3% below invoice (after rebate).

    What is the price compared to invoice, excluding the rebate?

    When there is a customer rebate, you should negotiate the price as if there was no rebate, then deduct accordingly. For example, if there is a $2,000 rebate, and you can buy the car at invoice, then buy the car at invoice and apply the $2,000 toward paying or reducing the purchase price. The net result gets you a deal at invoice, plus another $2,000.

    I would also encourage you to think in terms of dollars, rather than percentages. Talking in terms of percentages is a subtle tactic intended to make you leave larger amounts of money on the table. 1% seems like a less consequential amount than $300 (or whatever it happens to be), but remember that it will be dollars, not percentages, that will be deducted from your bank account.
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    jrt06jrt06 Member Posts: 1
    Somewhere on the Edmunds website it says that the fees that are listed on the dealer invoice are basically non-negotiable. Does anyone know if those fees are the "Manufac/Delivery/Proc/Handling" fee that is listed on the window sticker and seem to be consistent, or is it the vague "dealer fees" that seem to differ from one dealer to the next.

    What information does the "dealer invoice" include? Is it appropriate for buyers to ask for a copy of the dealer invoice?

    Also, in calculating the price I am willing to pay for a particular car, do I include "installed options" that are already on the car but that I don't want and would be happy to have them remove?

    The previous message talks about negotiating a deal at invoice. Is that possible? Doesn't that mean that the dealer makes no profit?

    Thanks!
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    mleanhmleanh Member Posts: 17
    edmunds has an informative article in their Buying section explaining the concept of holdback and how the dealer's actual cost is less than the invoice price you see. this explains how a dealer will sometimes offer to sell a car at "below invoice."

    http://www.edmunds.com/advice/incentives/holdback/index.html
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    faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    socala4: I did not correctly state what I met by "I never accept a rebate" Let me say it a better way. Any rebate that comes with a vehicle, I always apply it to reduce the price of the vehicle. Rebates are often used by consumers to pay their taxes and or registration. I HATE REBATES! Rebates are a gimics to refund to the buyer what the maker of the vehicle has added to convince a buyer they got a big discount. When in fact the sticker price reflects an overcharge that is being returned to the buyer, in the form of a loan if financed, and the rebate taken in the form of cash returned to the buyer.
    Just for example these stores that say a price is say $100.00 after a factory rebate of $75.00 and a store immediatedate rebate of $50.00. That's a bunch of junk! The factory is getting a loan from you for $50.00 for any where from 4 to 10 weeks, depending on how long they can put off sending you the rebate. There is a large percentage of people who do not even try to send in for the rebate. The dealers and makers of the product are hoping that you don't apply or forget to get your return of their overcharge.
    So rebates and send in for a return of money you have paid is a gimics that is not an incentive for me. That's how I feel any way.

    Farout
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    snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,350
    Just for example these stores that say a price is say $100.00 after a factory rebate of $75.00 and a store immediatedate rebate of $50.00. That's a bunch of junk! The factory is getting a loan from you for $50.00 for any where from 4 to 10 weeks, depending on how long they can put off sending you the rebate.

    I don't think it as bad as you are portraying. For one its not like they are raising the price then reducing it back down by the mail in rebate. Case in point, the kids bought my wife a digital camera for her birthday. A couple of days later I went to get her a memory stick for it. When I got there the 1 gig memory stick was actually $5 less than the 512 MB stick after a mail in rebate. Even though I have to wait a while to get my rebate I got twice as much memory for less money (even when factoring in the time value of money).

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

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    cluedweaselcluedweasel Member Posts: 150
    There are a lot of ways that a dealer can still be making money on a below invoice deal.

    1. Hold back - As already mentioned.

    2. Doc fees - My place charged $45 but some of our competitors were charging $400+. Sell at $200 below and still make $200.

    3. Credit - The credit union we worked with would give us $500 for each deal we financed (at the lowest interest rate). This could actually be a good deal for the customer because they could pay the loan off after 1 month with no penalty and we could lower the price of the car because of the $500.

    4. Various F&I add-ons - Alarms, mop&glo, VIN etching, etc. All pile on the profit. One of our competitors using to love selling "mandatory" (their words) add-ons; wheel locks for $300 (we sold them for $28), all weather floor mats for $250 ($10 from Walmart) and VIN etching for $250. People would delight in telling me how they got a car from there for $500 under invoice. The fact that they were actually paying $300 over with these "extras" was lost on them.

    5. Undervalueing trades - If they give you $1000 less than your trade is worth and then sell you the new car for $500 under invoice, they've made $500.

    6. Unit bonuses - Most dealerships will get bonuses for selling a certain number of cars. Get your timing right (when they're on 99 for the month and need 100) and you'll get a good deal. One example is when my dealership offered some silly bonuses to us salespeople, and the sales manager, if we sold 20 cars in a weekend. The most we'd ever done before was 12. Also, if any single salesperson got 3 then there was a big bonus for that person too. Well, 30 minutes before closing we were on 19 and I was on 2.5. I had one young couple who had come in 4 or 5 times to look at the FX35 but it was just out of their range. They got a call from me and an offer of $3000 below invoice. 2 hours later they were driving off in it and I was $5000 richer.

    6. Other incentives - When the G35 Coupe was the hot banana and we were selling them out in less than 24 hours at full sticker, Infiniti had a program were any dealership who sold 5 I35's in a month got an extra allocation of G35 Coupes. We were shifting those I's out at $2000 or more under invoice.

    7. Old stock - Inventory is a huge overhead and any car that's been hanging around for too long may be shifted out for under invoice. If you want a good deal, look for the inventory stickers (usually on the lower windshield) and look for the lowest stock number. Make a silly offer and you may be surprised.

    8. The Money's not always made from the sale - Service departments make dealerships money. The more cars they have out driving around, the more they'll make. Also, if the dealership is new to an area, they may sell cars cheap to get them out and seen.

    Also, do ask to see the invoice. No reasonable dealer will refuse.

    Sorry for the length of the post but I hope there is some useful information in here.
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    socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Now, that was an outstanding post. You deserve big kudos and thanks for that.
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    thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    tactics is in quotes because its your word that you use.

    i appreciate the help you offer - it was quite frustrating to have people who really didnt know what was going on try to negotiate a ridiculous price that just couldn't happen. $10,000 off MSRP on a Titan? sorry bucko - you can tell me its happening all day long where your brother is (which is what he said) but i know that its a complete and utter lie. that would have put us about $5000 below invoice...riiiiiiight.

    anyways, its not the advise that bothers me, or any of the other stuff. just the sneaky punches you take at the salespeople in very general terms. yes, there are some major sleezebags out there, and i can understand people's concern over being taken by these guys. but there are a lot of good people out there - and the generaliztions that we are ALWAYS doing this or ALWAYS doing that just doesnt help what we're trying to do - which is be fair and honest. if you want to say "its very possible a salesperson will do X,Y and Z" then thats fine. but to imply that ALL of us do it is just not right, or fair.

    all i ask is you consider changing the way you portray us to include the ones who actually want to do good by their customers...we do exist!

    -thene :)
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    jack47jack47 Member Posts: 312
    Well, if it's of any solace to you, I, for one, think car salesmen are far more moral than the editors of the New York Times.
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    socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    yes, there are some major sleezebags out there, and i can understand people's concern over being taken by these guys. but there are a lot of good people out there

    Again, that's not really the issue. I like to save money, no matter how sleazy or angelic the sales team might be.

    All salespeople, whether good or bad, receive some sort of sales training. The concepts they learn are similar across the industry, and are therefore predictable and manageable to those who understand them.

    Buyers should learn negotiation tactics so they can get better pricing and terms. Saving money is always a good thing, irrespective of whether salespeople are ethical or not.

    It's good for buyers to learn tactics of their own that will help them against any opponent, whether or not the opponent is worthy and ethical, or if he is the scum of the earth. It always goes back to getting the deal, and it's just business.
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    isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Are you saying you would give your business to a scum of the earth sleazeball if his price was lower than an upfront, ethical salesperson?
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    snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,350
    I may or may not, it all depends on the circumstances.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

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    socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Are you saying you would give your business to a scum of the earth sleazeball if his price was lower than an upfront, ethical salesperson?

    Not the point of my post.

    It is wise to negotiate a good deal, no matter what. I'm not going to leave money on the table just because the salesperson was polite, or friendly, or whatever.

    Negotiation tactics are used to secure the best price and terms. They should be used, even if the salesperson is polite or likeable. A buyer can (and should) moderate his/her specific tactics to adjust for the style and demeanor of the other side, but regardless, the deal needs to make sense, not matter what the sales team is like.
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    isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Business is business.

    Still, I know I won't give my business to a sleazy store or salesperson because I can save a fee dollars.

    Would you?
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    socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Still, I know I won't give my business to a sleazy store or salesperson because I can save a few dollars.

    That won't really matter, if the good salesperson matches the price of the sleazy one.
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    isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    But that's O.K.
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    socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    The answer is for Mr. Nice Guy to lower his price.

    This goes back to the discussion of the "niceness premium" -- I don't see a reason to pay it. If I prefer to deal with the polite salesperson, then I will be politely get him to lower his price. That way, everybody's happy (or at least I am.)

    If sleazy people can be expected to offer better prices, maybe they aren't so sleazy after all. Isn't it a bit sleazy to expect more money just because you weren't rude?
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    thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    likewise, you are also not getting the point of my post. i am just indicating that you make some backhanded remarks sometimes about salespeople in general, and none of them too kind. i am just requesting that those comments not be so general and all encompassing. who you buy from at what price is not my business. but, being a punching bag (or former punching bag) its tough to be grouped together with the sleezeballs. all i ask is you not generalize and make all salespeople sound like scum.

    -thene :)
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    socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    all i ask is you not generalize and make all salespeople sound like scum.

    I never did that, so please stop repeating it.

    Again, let me point out -- I don't care whether sales people are sinners or saints, it really doesn't matter. To me, business is business, and I expect that a salesperson who is good at what s/he does is going to try to do well for himself and the dealership.

    The relevant points are:

    -Salespeople receive sales training. That training can vary, but there are enough consistencies in the training that it is quite easy to prepare for it.

    -Buyers should negotiate, no matter how nice the sales team may be. You don't necessarily need to use the same exact approach in every situation, but the basic goal is the same (get the best deal), and the basic methods are the same (some negotiation tactics are better than others.)

    That's it. It's about the money, and I want the best deal from everyone and anyone. There's no reason for a buyer to overpay just because the salesperson wasn't "sleazy".
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    isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    O.K., I guess you DID answer my question after all.

    At the risk of putting words into your mouth, it would seem that PRICE is all you care about. Right?

    So if a sleazy salesperson in a horrible store happens to have a lower price than a decent place has, that is where you will buy? Right?

    Just a yes or no will be good.
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    mleanhmleanh Member Posts: 17
    I have to say that I don't get the impression that socala is making generalizations about salespeople. If anything, he seems to stick to his theme that it is about the deal and dollars (objective matters), rather than the personality of the salespeople or the feelings of the buying experience (subjective).

    You have to credit him for at least staying true to the discussion- offering buying tips for how to get the best deal. It's up to individual buyers to take his advice or go their own way.

    But for those like myself who read these discussions to learn, I hope that we can have more posts about the actual topic.

    Let's share buying tips, not question someone's motiviation for thinking a certain way. Whether or not one agrees with a poster who offers buying tips is one's perogative.

    The way I see it, if someone is willing to pay more for a perceived "pleasant" buying experience, that is up to him/her. It's their money, time, and energy, so I for one am not going to say anything about them, much less judge. Nor am I going to say that my life is happier because I would take a different approach.

    Likewise, if someone says that he/she is willing to deal with a "sleazy/fill in with a negative adjective" salesperson or dealership to get a better deal and save x amount of dollars, it's also not for me to say anything or judge.

    Once again, I want to be clear that I am not criticizing anyone at all. What I want as a forum reader is to read tips. We should appreciate the people who offer them up. Ultimately, the decision is up to us individually to use any one or a combination of them in our own buying experience.

    Sorry for the length of the post.
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    bigdveedubgirlbigdveedubgirl Member Posts: 402
    Isell,

    I have posed that question to socal about a month ago. He does not care as long as he gets the lower price. I really do not feel he purchases cars from dealers that have quality salespeople such as ourselves. I think one of his tatics is find the weakest link that he can beat down and squeeze every last dime out of.

    It is a strategy none the less.

    Buyers in my store never mention holdback and rarely mention invoice. THANK GOD!~ :P
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    socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    At the risk of putting words into your mouth, it would seem that PRICE is all you care about. Right?

    You continue to imply that "nice" salespeople ultimately charge more than do "sleazy" ones.

    That's a good insight on the business, and goes to what I've been saying throughout these threads -- that "niceness" is really another sales tactic designed to get consumers to pay more than necessary.

    The much-vaunted "relationship" is not used to benefit the consumer, but to make sure that the sales price is higher than it needs to be. If these relationships cost us a lot of money, then that's a pretty one-sided relationship, and one that I can do without.
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    biancarbiancar Member Posts: 965
    kind of odd that the salespeople here are saying "Oh, so you'll buy from a sleazy person if they have the best price?"

    It's been my personal experience that the sleazy dealers are the ones who overcharge, who add mop n' glow, sealants, ADM, all the rest of that stuff. Maybe go beyond just the possibly unethical into the outright illegal (see article about the NC dealership owner and sales personnel recently sentenced to jail for fraudulent dealings with lenders).

    The "nice" dealerships that I have dealt with have been straightforward, honest, upfront, AND have given me the lowest price.

    It is just very interesting to note that it's the salespeople here, not the customers, making this connection between "sleazy" dealers and low prices.

    By the way, "tactics" is not a dirty word or an insult, any more than "negotiation," "methods," "procedures," or any similar terms. I don't read socal as slamming sales people by simply using a neutral term to label the process by which sales are made.
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    isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    As usual you just can't answer a yes or no question.

    Well, actually you just did. Thank you.
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    cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Bingo - you have hit the nail on the head.

    The connection between "sleazy dealers" and low prices doesn't exist.
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    socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    kind of odd that the salespeople here are saying "Oh, so you'll buy from a sleazy person if they have the best price?"

    Exactly right. I can't speak for everyone, but I would think that most consumers associate sleaziness with unpleasant surprises, excessive upselling and a concerted effort to layer in additional costs.

    Yet here we're being told that sleaziness is actually a good way to save money. Does that sound as weird to the other consumers as it does to me?

    By the way, "tactics" is not a dirty word or an insult, any more than "negotiation," "methods," "procedures," or any similar terms.

    Bingo. Sellers have tactics, and buyers should have them, too. A buyer with negotiation skills levels the playing field, and I can't see what's wrong with that.
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    nynewcarnynewcar Member Posts: 89
    it would seem that PRICE is all you care about. :confuse:

    Sorry for butting in. Maybe I'm missing something in the context, but this is the second time this week I'm seeing something like this, and I don't get it. A car is a car. All other things being equal - once I've chosen the model, what else am I supposed to care about, if not price?
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    biancarbiancar Member Posts: 965
    Isell's dream world:

    Customer: "Oh, no, I don't care about price! I care about how nice a guy you are. So let's make this easy, I'll pay MSRP, plus ADM, plus sealant, plus extended warranty, plus whatever else you want! Price is unimportant to me: I've got no family to take care of, I don't expect to live to retirement, I've got no mortgage, and I know you salespeople are just some of the most underappreciated, underpaid people in the world, so here, take my money."
    --------

    Customer's dream world:

    Salesperson: "Oh, I see you're an educated consumer, and neither one of us wants to haggle. Profit is an ugly, horrible thing so of course I don't care about making any profit. I'll sell this car to you at invoice, minus rebates, minus holdbacks, and with a full tank of gas and free oil changes as long as you own the car. Oh, and 0% financing comes with that too. Okey-doke?"

    Name of this scenario: When Worlds Collide.
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    smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    I can't think of a single thing more important than the price.

    If you live in a competitive marketplace with lots of dealers within an easy drive, and you've got a pretty good handle on what you want and what your financial situation is, why bother caring about anything else? A car's an appliance, for God's sake. It's not a house, or a retirement portfolio, or your physical well-being. The manufacturer backs it with a terrific warranty, and any dealer of the same make anywhere in the country will be thrilled to accept your service business.

    With e-mail, research, and a little bit of determination, you should be able to get a great price, and it shouldn't take you very long, either (another old chestnut the dealers like to use in an attempt to humiliate the customers -- "boy, you must have a lot of time on your hands!").

    Life's too short, indeed. Whether the savings amounts to $3000 or $300 dollars, I'd much rather have that money to put in my kid's 529, or to buy him piano lessons, or to rent a cabin in Maine for two weeks in August. But that's just me.
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    socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    If you live in a competitive marketplace with lots of dealers within an easy drive, and you've got a pretty good handle on what you want and what your financial situation is, why bother caring about anything else?... The manufacturer backs it with a terrific warranty, and any dealer of the same make anywhere in the country will be thrilled to accept your service business.

    Well said, I absolutely agree.
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    thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    socal,

    i know its about the money - and i know that you want every single penny that the dealership has available for your pocket. and thats fine. but the dealership also wants every penny it can for its pocket. its a matter of deciding when you are happy with the amount you are paying. why should dealers just give the car away up front? whats the point of even having a dealership if they just give cars away. they can try to make money just like any other business, why is that so terrible? if you are such a great negotiator, then it shouldnt be a problem. but once EVERYONE starts doing that - dealers wont be so open to selling at invoice, because now they wont be able to make money on anyone else.

    right now its a balance. some people get better deals because they can make more money on others. im not saying thats the ideal situation, but thats how it works.

    regarding giving your business to the sleezeballs - i'd rather pay a few extra dollars and know that my experience was a good one. the sleezeballs will get you another way anyways. the reason their price is so low is because they anticipate that they can get you for the other stuff. the reason why a better more honest dealer is priced higher is because they dont want to sneak that stuff in later. nor do they want to pressure you into it. what business DOESNT want to make money?

    and yes, you have made backhanded remarks about salespeople in general. and if i had no life, i'd go back and copy and paste every one for you to review.

    once again, i would appreciate if instead of using generalizations regarding salespeople, you open the possibility to the fact that there are some honest and good people out there. this whole us against them thing is getting so old...

    respectfully,

    thene
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    Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,150
    We've asked that all of them stop, as well as any personally-directed comments. This discussion becomes less-than-useful when the conversation focuses on other members rather than on how to get the best deal.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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    thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    thanks kirstie!

    i know its tough for people to understand, but until you have sat on both sides of the desk, its tough to get a clear perspective of what the other side has to deal with, etc. it shouldn't be an us vs. them kind of thing. if you find the right salesperson, it should be a team effort to get the best car for the best price. if you don't feel like your salesperson is helping you do that, then you've got the wrong person working with you.

    simple as that.

    polyester suits are getting fewer and farther between these days...

    -thene :)
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    Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,150
    polyester suits are getting fewer and farther between these days...

    And if you apply a hot iron to them, they disappear even faster :) Long live linen!

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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    stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,730
    The problem is, a salesperson actually has 2 roles, with different motives. You seem to combine them (best car/best price).

    Well, they should be working with/for the buyer to find them the best car. This is where an Isell type is much better to work with instead of a newbie at a turnover shop that couldn't care less whay you buy, as long as you buy.

    But, once the car is settled on, their real duty is to make money for the dealer and themselves, so there is a subtle shift away from working in the buyers interests (from a price persepctive).

    Sure, they still want to give you a reasonably good deal, but mostly because they still want you to buy the car, and don't want to lose you to the dealer down the road with a screamer ad. But, their goal is not (nor should it be) to get the buyer the absolute rock bottom price.

    Now, no reason a buyer still can't get just as good a price from the "nice" salesman, but like anything else, you have to work for it.

    And finally, salesmen (with few exceptions) do not set the price, the dealer (sales manager) signs off on the deal.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

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    graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,670
    I always have a number in mind when I walk into a dealership. That number is culled from research here at Edmunds (Prices Paid forum, for example), by looking at the dealership's stock situation, weekend car ads in the newspaper, etc.

    Now, I understand that some don't want to make the first offer. Don't have an issue with that. Usually, if the dealership makes the first offer, it's not the number I'm thinking about anyway.

    Forget for a moment all the theatrics of "who has control of the deal". To me no one controls the deal until money changes hands and papers are signed. The deal can fall apart (and I can walk away) until I drive that car off the lot. If I'm uncomfortable about any part of the deal, then a deal won't be made.

    I've also stated that if negotiations take more than about 15-20 minutes, I'm wasting my time. I won't/don't spend time going back and forth for 30-45-60 minutes.

    If my offer, their offer or counter offer, isn't close, we just part ways, immediately. No hard feelings.

    But, if we're very close (say within $150-$200), I usually ask for something in return for the extra $150 (say floor mats, oil changes, etc).

    Some dealerships (and buyers) want to extend the negotiation process as long as possible, it seems. I don't spend much time with those folks. Some are willing to get right down to THE NUMBER immediately. If I don't trust them, I don't trust any part of the deal they propose. I don't have time for that.

    I can get as good (or better) a deal from the salespeople/dealership I trust.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
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    jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    Agreed. If you can't get the negotiations done in about 15 minutes or so, it is better to walk away. There are millions of other vehicles out there in Alamo country.
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    socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    i know that you want every single penny that the dealership has available for your pocket. and thats fine. but the dealership also wants every penny it can for its pocket.

    That's precisely what I've been saying. The dealership isn't running a charity, it's operating a business. Salespeople are trained to make sales -- the higher the prices and the more upselling, the better.

    Buyers need to prepare for this reality, and learn how it works. You're there to buy a product and leave, not to hope that you have an "experience" that invariably will cost you hundreds or thousands of dollars if you allow it to.

    i'd rather pay a few extra dollars and know that my experience was a good one.

    That's a false dichotomy. I save money, which gives me a good experience. Paying too much is inherently unpleasant,and should be avoided.

    you open the possibility to the fact that there are some honest and good people out there.

    I'll say it once again -- I don't care if you're "good" or not, I'm still going to negotiate for the lowest price. If you're so "good", then just give me the lowest price, and stop complaining. Business skills don't get tossed out the window just because people are smiling.
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    slateracslaterac Member Posts: 85
    Hi all,

    I'm looking at a mazda 3 i touring with a sunroof/6 cd changer, side airbags, and door guards. I've been quoted online at 300 over invoice. I have a question for everyone though. It is unreasonable to ask the car be at invoice and trade your car and say no dealer fees since they are going to make money off my car and selling at invoice anyway? I know they got 3% for invoice and they will make money from the trade so there is no need to worry about them making money because they will, like you all have said they are a business. My question is if asking for a car at 16k out the door is asking too much when the car is 17,600 at invoice?

    I want to pay invoice for the car and have them pick up the tax after I trade in my car because they are making money off of that anyway. Does this seem reasonable?

    thanks.

    slaterac.
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