Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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It has nothing to do with pity. It has to do with shrewd business. I'm not implying that you should not negotiate because you should feel bad for the salesperson. I'm simply saying that when you negotiate--in any situation, not just buying cars--you are asking for consideration and flexibility from whoever is on the other side of the table. Why do you think the salesperson asks you questions about your last vacation and how old your kids are? Do you think he cares? No. He's there to do the same thing that you are--make a business arrangement that is advantageous to him. The difference is that he has been trained in the art of negotiation. He knows that most people will be more flexible with someone they like. The customer should be aware of this and employ the same tactics. Rapport building is essential to all negotiations--and in a forum that advises others how to negotiate, to claim that rapport building is not important is irresponsible and inaccurate.
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And such obviously hypocritical car salespeople wonder why they arn't universally loved. :P
I was off doing something else and your post beat me to it. Now you can be the bad guy here.
So, this is what "rapport" is. I knew it wasn't anything that would help me.
Thanks again,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Thank you for asking. I've been in the car business for a little over seven years now. I started as a salesperson selling Kias and have been a Finance Manager for about four years now in a Nissan dealership.
Don't get me wrong...I dont begrudge the customer their opportunity to negotiate. I also don't fault anyone for using the information at their disposal to negotiate more effectively. I have three basic problems...
One...people are constantly complaining about the negotiation process--how unfair it is, how time consuming it is, how shady it is. We don't want to negotiate. We put a fair price on every car that allows us to make a profit and for you, the consumer to pay a fair price. Even at full list, cars have a lower percentage of markup than tennis shoes, computers, jewelry, electronics, and even (in most cases) real estate. Now, we will negotiate if the customer wants to, but please don't complain about it later when we're better at it--after all, that's what we're trained to do.
Two...respect your salesperson--even if they can't make your deal. They are not crooks (no more of them than in any other industry anyway). They are hard working men and women who work a lot of hours. They are there to try and make a paycheck--and helping the customer is usually how they do it, not by pulling the wool over their eyes. A pleasant attitude should be common sense, but people think that they need to come in with a chip on their shoulder and out for blood because they are scared of being taken advantage of. I can tell you that you are much more likely to be ripped off if you go in with a negative attitude than if you are nice. Salespeople have a conscience too, and they are much less likely to take advantage of someone they like.
Three...I think forums like this are terrific. I love an educated consumer. The problem is that there is a ton of inaccurate information out there and no accountability for propagating it. I hear people advising other people on how to buy a car, and I cringe knowing that if they take that advice, they are going to spend weeks fruitlessly driving from dealership to dealership without closing a deal.
Hmmmmm...maybe I'm typing in Greek or something. Obviously I'm not making myself clear. You don't have to like your salesperson. He doesn't have to like you. Fortunately, it's not always like that, but it can be. What I'm saying is that you need to ACT like you like him and you need to MAKE him like you. In negotiations (again, not just cars), you will get farther with the velvet glove than with the iron fist. In short, if you play nice, you'll get a better deal, and isn't that the purpose of this forum--How Do I get a good Deal? To give any other advice would be irresponsible and inaccurate.
Well I think that works both ways. You seem like a nice guy. To tell you the truth, I admire that you will come in here and say what you believe. I think the greed is a little misguided though. I think you have more to worry about from your fellow dealers than the public. As long as another dealer will sell me a car for less that is probably where I am going to go. While there are honest dealerships there are a great number of dishonest ones too. Unfortunately you have to deal with a lot of that fallout. I really doubt there are many people who have bought more than three new cars in here have not ran into a dealer who was less than truthful.
I am with a few of the other guys in here when I say I don't really want to build relationship with a dealer. I am nice and polite but in the end it is a business transaction. I may take my car back for service when it is under warranty but after that the dealership will not see me again with that car.
Thanks, you've just made me re-configure my office. My desk and chair are now suspended from the ceiling. It was getting pretty deep in here.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
No one says to disrespect anyone. I do believe the consumer should know as much as possible regarding the ways dealerships make their money. Also, there's more than a few ways to find out the costs of the vehicles being sold (rebates, dealer incentives, special finance rates, holdback, etc).
I think Edmunds is one of the best resources available to get the information someone needs BEFORE they walk into the dealership. No adversity. If you can't make a deal with someone, there's always the chance that another salesperson/dealership will.
The way bobst does his negotiations is the quickest, easiest ways to do it. Go in, make the offer, it's either accepted or not. If not, he moves on to another dealership. No muss, no fuss. What's wrong with that?
Was that KIA stent a tough gig? No disrespect, but that's considered the bottom wrung of autodom right now. Glad to hear your with Nissan.
Of course he could be as clueless as my hubby, so I'm still doing my homework.
Keep on doing your research. Decide exactly what you wnat and go to the Prices Paid forum to get an idea how much you should pay.
Anyway, Peyton and Bluf, be you one life form or two, we are happy that you have joined this forum. We needed some new meat to gnaw on.
Spent all of 25 minutes picking up the car. Would have been shorter but I was shooting the bull with the salesmanager a bit. I have better things to do in life than spend hours taking a guided tour around a car dealership.
But I think BEFORE you do any price shopping, or emailing for quotes, go drive the vehicles first that are within your price range.
Many times you will find that a particular vehicle just won't work for you in terms of head room, or leg room, or size, or blind spots, or some particular thing about the car might be annoying to you. So it's no point wasting yours and the salepeople's time by calling around for quotes if you won't like the car anyways.
When visiting a dealership for test drives, just tell the saleguy that you are doing your research, you're just out test driving the cars first, and you'll make a decision in a week or so. And ask to see or drive a base model, so that you'll know exactly what it looks and feels like. This way you can spare the u-boat cpt friend of yours from 10 test drives. Bring him along when you've made your decision.
If they ask you if you would like to buy right now, just say you still have to drive some more cars, and when you're ready you'll sit down and talk numbers.
If you received good hassle free service from the salespeople that helped you, then give them a chance to beat the price, by calling them back and making them an offer.
The other option is buying a new 2006 model, if there are any left. You might be able to find some new 2006s that still have full warranties, and that dealers must clear.
Anyways good luck, and let us know.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Okay - concerning the BMW situation, get a weekend job and suck it up. I'm perfectly honest here. With a 5-anything score, you'll be lucky to get better than 12-15% finincing these days. Most dealers won't even deal with you at all and will tell you to go get something used for $6-8K. You're an incredible risk in their minds with that much debt and such a low score.
OTOH... managing to keep the BMW and eventualyl pay it off - that helps your score a lot. And it's a darn nice car, to be honest. In fact, I'd see if I could get the factory warranty extended on it up to 8-10 years old and just drive it until the wheels fall off once its paid off.
Just get a side job and deal with it - you're really stuck with no other options.
****
Concerning the 12K car...
I know you want new. I was in the same situation three months ago. 12K was all I could get from my bank and make the budget work. So I went for a used "beater" until my finances get better this coming fall.
Option 1:
Just get a ten year old Toyota 4Runner or Camry/Accord or simmilar. You shouldn't have to pay more than 4-6K. Maintainence will run you maybe $500 a year on it, which is what - $40 a month in payments?
*note - a 5 year old Buick also works - a 2002 LeSabre is a nice car, actually, and quite reliable*
Option 2:
Get the best used car you can for 12K. Top on this list are Buicks, Pontiacs(local dealer is selling a 2006 Pontiac Grand Prix with 25K(ex-rental) for $13K), and simmilar. As long as it's less than 3 or 4 years old, any bank on the planet will consider a loan on the car.(ie - auto loans require new or factory certified/only a couple of years old in most cases)
Second is a personal favorite of mine - a Toyota Celica(standard, not the GTS). Reliable, fun, cheap to insure and maintain, and $12K the going price for one only a few years old. They also have the best manual gearbox in their price range, bar-none. Easy to learn on. An Aveo or Yaris my comparison has a rubbery mess for a gearbox.
Used is always better. Let the other person eat the initial depreciation.
Before you have your husband's chief go to a dealer with you, decide what kind of car you want.
Ask the chief what he thinks the car will cost. Ask him if he knows of any dealer incentives or any special deals that are going on. Ask if he knows what others have been paying. If he doesn't know his facts, then it will be impossible for him to determine a good price and you should not take his advice seriously.
I love it - if the dealer makes more than $1, then they're greedy???!!! I'm all for getting the best possible price, but come on, they do need to run a business and be profitable in order that YOU may buy a car from them. It's almost as if some people EXPECT the dealer to give them the car for nothing! Nearly all of us feel we're under-payed in whatever profession we're in, but I'll bet none of us would work for free!!!
Oil companies were just as profit-motivated a few years ago when oil was around $10 per barrel as they were recently when oil was around $60 per barrel. The level of corporate greed had nothing to do with the market price.
With cars, the problem is the nature of the negotiation game. Card counters at blackjack can gain an edge and beat a casino at its own game. Similarly, some car buyers understand and play the game so well that dealers complain about slim margins. The game becomes more challenging for dealers as increasing numbers of buyers become skilled. Motivation is irrelevant.
Its pretty good advice for those with a distaste for the whole negotiation experience. Its short simple and allows for no game playing.
By playing hide-and-seek with the information, you limit the car dealer's ability to find alternative solutions to your situation that you might not be aware of.
there really is no hide and seek here, the offer is what the offer is and they are willing to pay that and nothing more. There really is no other solution than to sell or not sell the car. Anything else will open the door for the salesman to try some "tricks of the trade" to get the highest price as possible. Thats their job.
Also, part of the art of negotiation is building rapport with the person that you are negotiating with.
You fail to see the point of the Bobst method. The whole ideal is to avoid negotiations.
By taking a hard-nosed approach like the one above,
How in the world is offering to buy a car at a certain price a hard line approach?
The dealer would be foolish to ignore your budget or credit concerns because by addressing them,
With an informed and well researched buyer any budget and credit concerns will be addressed well before they walk into a dealership. For all you know Bobst has the money in cash in his pocket when he makes the offer.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Its only because thats the way car dealers have made it.
If you are inexperienced in negotiating, don't worry about it.
I agree these people just need to do their research find a good price and make a OTD offer and be done with
But lets be serious its buying a car the negotiation process isn't really that hard.
(not the NO! approach mentioned above)
Actually the NO! approach works great when it comes to selling 50 cents worth of scotchguard for $200 or a wax job for $250 or a few bucks worth of pin stripping for $500. Just say no to any extra add ons.
Look up the invoice price online.
Fine and dandy but try to find out what the going prices are. Some cars go for below invoice some for invoice some for above invoice some for sticker and some for above invoice. Get this information it will be better.
The bottom line is that $500 over invoice is an attainable offer on nearly any car, it saves you thousands, and it allows the dealer to make an APPROPRIATE profit margin.
However there are cars where $500 over invoice is over priced and there are some cars where that will not even be considered. Plus appropriate profit is what the market will allow. If its $1 then thats it, if its a few hundred dollars that good if its a loss so be it.
Again, contrary to popular belief, it is better to get your financing at the dealership.
Always, and I mean always, get your financing in order before even setting foot in the dealership. If the dealer can beat it then take it, if they can't they can't. I have yet to have a dealer beat what I get from the bank (been doing business with them for decades and have a good relationship with them).
When the Finance Manager starts pitching you insurances and warranties, be respectful and listen.
Thats when you say NO!.
Extended warranties are great if they are through the manufacturer,
99% of the time its a waste of money
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Plus, it also means you don't have a clear idea of what to offer, nor where you're going to end up.
And be sure to genuflect or, at least, bow obsequiously upon entering the sales cubicle.
You're putting yourself very well. It's nice to see a salesperson giving good sound advice from our side.
Thanks for your input!
-Moo
That is of no concern to the buyer. the buyer should only be concerned if it is a fair price that the market will support.
Now, you are going to sit down at a table and tell that salesperson that even though you like the merchandise, and he's done a good job helping you, and the price is plainly posted, you don't want to pay that price.
If I don't find that the product is worth it or that I know (or reasonably presume) that the price nearby is significantly lower the answer is yes I will tell them I don't want to pay that price. The dealership doesn't have to sell to me.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
When you start telling us how your income is subjective to the sales price it has everything to do with pity. Comments like that are designed to tug at the heart strings and get concessions from us.
Why do you think the salesperson asks you questions about your last vacation and how old your kids are?
To get your guard down so that they have an upper hand in the negotiation. Thats all.
The customer should be aware of this and employ the same tactics.
Or maybe just be aware of it and not fall for it. Since salesmen are supposively expert negotiators they will not fall for it when the customer tries it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well you should be in good hands, Chiefs don't like anyone messing with their SA's.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you negotiate for that long you are doing something wrong or your expectations are out of line. Lets face it this is not rocket science, you're buying a car not negotiating the Treaty of Ghent.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
ROTFLMAO......Good one.
Sounds like a graduate of the school of Socala4/PCH101.
They're everywhere, they're everywhere.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Nope, I do have issues with some of the stuff he was saying. IIRC Socala4 was advocating investing a lot of time so that the dealership has the time invested and wouldn't want to lose the deal.
But in reality all you are doing is negotiating a price of a car. It really shouldn't take to long unless one side or both are not willing to give and trying to make the other do all the work. Or that the prices between the two are far apart at which point you have to appraise the situation. Is it that your offer is to low or theirs to high and should you look some more.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Right, and in post 1769 'blufz1' said:
You got to grind them for 1-3 hours,that's just the way it is.
For me (and I thought you also) that's too much time to invest when buying a car. :confuse:
I think with the tax season in full swing, you've been working too much. Talk about an investment of time but you probably need to, so you can pay the bills.
Don't worry you'll be back to normal before you know it.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
If I walk into the dealer and offer that price, he will accept it. Sure, he will try to bump me up as much as he can, but once I start to walk out he will accept it.
If Bluf grinds for four hours and eventually offers the same price as me, the dealer will accept it. If Bluf offers less, the dealer will not accept it, even though they spent four hours negotiating.
I mean if someone starts of waaay below invioce or below what the cars are selling for I usually politely thank them for the time, give them my final number and move on to the next customer. No need to waste my time or theirs.
Last weekend we had one of our sales guys sitting down with a customer from about 2:30 to 5:00pm.
I did a deal at 2:30, then went and took more customers, test drives and so on, and did another deal at 5:00pm, and they were still sitting there talking turkey. And he didn't even get the deal done.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Both sides will have had too much time invested. I would use that to my advantage as a sales person.
I can tell in pretty short order whether I can get a good deal as soon as we sit down at the table. If we're too far apart, I'm not going to waste my time and energy to get to my price. I'll just move on to someplace that's going to be more amenable to get to my price.
Most of us have done our research. We pretty much know what any given make/model will sell for.....and be a good deal. You can go to a store to play the 2-3 hour negotiating games to get there. Or, you can go to a store that you can get to that price in short order. I choose the latter.
I'm confident enough in my research that it doesn't take me near that long to get where the dealership needs to be.
But, as some have said, they don't feel good about their deal unless it takes them hours to get the deal done.
Your Treaty of Ghent really hits the spot. I laughed alot because it "ain't no big deal" requiring brain surgery head to head with the salesperson. But it takes civility and patience.
You reminded me of the time years ago, when our daughter was purchasing her first vehicle. My wife and myself went with her to the dealer. I had forewarned her that what the price SHOULD be and how the process SHOULD work and how it MIGHT work with the salesperson...salesmanager...and us.
I told the salesperson what we would pay for our daughter's first car. Reply, "I have to ask my sales manager".
Long story short, salesman counter offer, no deal, back to manager, etc. Finally the manager came in and tried to soft soap us and we (my wife AND myself) refused to budge.
The salesmanager lost his composure, and began to raised his voice and began to yell at us repeating, "I just can't do this". Our daughter began to cry so we said goodbye and left.
We later found a more civil and flexible dealer and did not have to negotiate a Treaty of Ghent. And that was most refreshing and pleasant!
Our daughter today is a mother of two childre, (God given grandchildren!!!), married to a fine man, and guess who negotiates the vehicles for her family? Yep she does.
Good luck to all
jensad
I don't have any issues with someone telling me they can't meet my offer. I'll thank them for their time and move on.
Certainly, there's no reason to cry over someone not accepting an offer either, though.
Glad to hear your daughter is doing well.
This place has a reputation for being very agressive and playing hardball with customers.
Ones story was that when a sales manager came in to close a deal he was arguing with a customer to the point where he got up and stood up on his chair and was yelling at the customer that he can't discount the car anymore. :surprise:
Another one was when the sales manager was sitting with a customer and the customer asked for a discount. The sales manager called all the sales guys into the office and they came in and stood around the customer. the SM then said "tell me how much you want off again?" the customer said it and all the sales guys started laughing at the customer, and all were yelling that's impossible! :surprise:
It's just crazy to think that stuff still goes on today.
Anyways that store gives away all their cars so if you don't mind being treated like crap you can probably save yourself a couple hundred extra bucks .
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I agree thats why my response was that if you are taking that long something is wrong.
I think with the tax season in full swing,
Yeah and this morning was busy, but right about noon it dropped of to nothing. I have a feeling that tomorrow will be dead. But I am starting to get some stories to tell.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So true, as an example on another Edmunds forum we were discussing the new Suzuki SX4 and I went to a nearby Suzuki dealer to take a look at it. They had a ADM of $4 grand on it. Right there and then if I were in the market for one I would have walked out of there and gone someplace else. It would have been to much of a hassle to get them down about 25% of their asking price.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
They will accept my offer, I will pay them that amount, and I will drive my new car home.
"Bluf may be able to get it lower than your offer."
That's true.
However, we are assuming that I am as knowledgable as Bluf. If I think my offer is a low price, so would Bluf. When he eventually got the dealer down that low, he would probably end the negotiation and accept their price.
I said I'd split the difference of the so called "error" and thought I was being more than nice. He said he couldn't do it, that being $450 over invoice was the best he could do. So over $150 he didn't get a sale, and I ended up getting it from a dealership 120 miles to the north for exactly invoice anyway. So I ended up saving even more than I offered him, and he said no! Greed!
That initial sales manager made a bad mistake by losing his cool -- very unprofessional to say the least. It's good you went elsewhere.
I also laughed at that "Treaty of Ghent" line -- you can always count on snakeweasel for a good one like that.
And I thought it was bad when the local dealer here had an ADM of $795 on a base 2007 Elantra, with a stick shift even!