Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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I feel like I am taking psych 101 all over again!!
Based on my experiences buying small items on eBay, I'd run like the wind, the other direction. eBay and Paypal have no support despite what they try to say in their misadvertising about how they protect you. They only care about the commission from the lister/seller.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Legitimate dealers seem to offer some slower moving inventory on eBay to get rid of it. Still, I'd be very leery of buying a car on eBay, certainly with no pre-purchase inspection on your part first.
Just checking some recent Camry offerings, I found one where the seller admitted the car was flood damaged by Katrina and the airbag light was on. This supposedly was a new unsold 2004 Camry (remember that Katrina occured in August 2005, when 2006 Camry were already on the market).
In another case, the Camry supposedly had its right windows blown out by a storm (Columbus, Ohio) and ended up with a waterlogged interior. The interior was then dried up, but the airbag light was on.
Yet in both cases, there were bidders! Maybe they were planning to "flip" the cars for a profit. Both cars had salvage titles. How do you spell 10-foot pole?
I agree with imid, virtually every small used item (as opposed to new in box) I've bought from eBay was in worse condition than described by the seller.
OTOH, selling my '97 Camry on eBay was a pleasant experience, and I'd readily sell a car that way again. This obviously works best if your car has no major issues.
Are you changing your strategy, again? Aren’t you the one that advocates spending a good bit of time at the dealership negotiating because you feel the salesperson must invest time so he isn’t willing to let a sale get away? To me the more time you spend negotiating the better the chance there is of, “having a contest over who can throw his weight around the most”. That’s why I don’t do it. Remember, I’m the guy who likes to get the deal done in 30 minutes or less and I have had very good success in doing that?
Please pick you’re strategy and stick with it. That way it will be a lot easier for others to discuss an issue with you. It’s tough to hit a moving target, although we are getting better at it, when we decide to discuss situations with you.
Thanks for the help, we really need it.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Look in your local (and non-local) newspapers. See what other dealerships are advertising their models for. Check with Edmunds to see what the MSRP vs invoice price is. Look at the dealership's stock situation of the model your interested in.
Use all of that info to make your offer. Make the offer "doable" for the dealership and a "good deal" for you.
I'm seeing more an more people more concerned about the "control" of the deal. Don't get all hung up on (as jmonroe points out) "throwing weight around" as to who has control. Ultimately, control rests with the buyer as he/she can walk away from any deal not to their liking.
Stick to your offer. If it's unacceptable to the dealer, move on. The more time you sit at the negotiating table, the more opportunities the sales person gets to "bump" your offer.
Be courteous, but firm in your offer to ward off the "bump".
The way I see it, the only people who are willing to sit for protracted negotiation sessions....
1. Don't have confidence that their offer will get a deal done
2. Are afraid that if they don't negotiate, they'll leave money on the table.
3. Don't have faith enough in their research that they think they may be wrong in their offer
4. Are afraid of the "big...bad dealer". No need to be afraid. They're there to sell cars. You have confidence in your numbers, it shouldn't take long, nor be hard to strike a quick/good deal.
5. If you're worried about fees, make your offer an OTD deal.
The worst that can happen is the dealership lets you walk. No harm in that. You can always go back to the dealership, or to another dealership to see if your offer will be accepted.
This is the problem -- you are one of those who regards negotiation as an inherently conflict-driven and hostile experience, so you try to minimize negotiation in an effort to avert conflict.
That's an incorrect assessment. For one, the negotiation process doesn't begin when you sit down and talk numbers, it begins from the moment you walk onto the lot. You are being assessed and judged by the seller, and they will use the greeting and test drive experience to pitch you on the product, attempt to establish control and move you toward a higher price.
That's fine. I know this will happen, and I use that time to burn time off in a unaggressive manner. Since the salespeople want to do their pitching, I let them, and since they are using that time to judge me, I will throw in a few erroneous leads so that they underestimate me just a bit, as that is likely to get them more excited about the sale (you can see them dreaming and scheming) and more committed to wanting see something result from this exchange.
This is really quite easy, and there is nothing particularly aggressive about it. It's a mistake to believe that you must either play Mr. Nice Guy and become best friends with the sales department in order to gain Most Favored Customer status, act like a schoolyard bully, or put a force field around you to deal with them -- they are well prepared for all three.
That being said, I'll give credit to bobst -- if you intend to do the take-it-or-leave-it routine, do it his way. The key with his style is that he puts it in writing, which makes the whole thing much more serious and cut and dry. However, it does have the same disadvantages that any strategy designed around making the first offer includes -- the price won't be falling once you've established the floor.
It's naive to pretend that the dealer isn't attempting to gain control. It's easy to avoid allowing them to have it, but they have been trained to take control, as they believe that it will lead to generating more sales and higher profits.
You don't need to believe me -- this is what Patrick Davis, an automotive sales trainer and dealer, advises his clients in the business to do with the customer:
Take Control
By: Patrick Davis
If you've ever wondered who has control of the conversation in any negotiation -- the salesperson or the customer? -- the answer is simple: The one who is asking the questions! So when your customer starts asking you questions, such as: “Do you have any .....?” or “How much is...?”, you know that he/she has taken control. Now what?
Try turning things around by asking the customer questions, like: “What brings you into our dealership today?” Only then will you feel confident beginning your qualifying questions. Now you're in control and ready to help your customer select the right vehicle.
Develop the habit of asking questions while walking around the dealership, standing in the lot, or sitting in the office with your prospect. Don’t get caught in the trap of only answering questions, when you could be gathering information you need to do the job you were trained to do.
The good news is, you don’t have to change everything you've been doing! But a successful, professional salesperson continually learns new selling and communication techniques, and stays at the top of his game. Change may be painful, but rewarding -- like the caterpillar that becomes a butterfly -- change is necessary for survival. Consider these words to the wise: MODIFY SELLING TECHNIQUES TO FLY OR REMAIN THE SAME AND DIE!
Interesting to see what the dealers think of us, isn't it? Key points to take away from this:
-It's very important for the dealer to control the customer
-Controlling the customer includes making sure that the customer doesn't control the process
-The dealer is convinced that this is important not just for his own sales, but for the good of the customer!
So you're kidding yourself if you believe that they don't make an effort to control the customer, or that they believe control to be a trivial matter. Just because they may be polite to you or even pleasant to deal with doesn't mean that they aren't trying to manage either you or the process.
I have no doubt that many people buy new cars without inspecting them without incident, and I'm sure that some buyers inspect cars and give them their blessing only to find that they were lemons. But I still like to test the specific car that I'm buying prior to buying it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Such as?
While polite during the negotiations, I wouldn't say I was overly friendly... feeling this would give the dealership an advantage. My trump card, which put me firmly in "control", was my demonstrated willingness to walk when the sales manager would not further lower his price. Each time I got up to "walk", the SM came back with a lower price.
I will ask questions about features that I know about, so that I can learn his style of pitching, plus see how good he is about bluffing. (They rarely know details about product features, so it is good to know whether he will admit his lack of knowledge, try to hide it, etc.)
There are also things that you shouldn't do. If you are a finance whiz, I wouldn't make that obvious early in the game, as that could make them a bit more cautious. If you absolutely love the car, don't admit it, as you have just talked yourself into a higher price category. Be careful about describing in detail your desire for a particular feature or option package, as the more specific your requirements, the more that you will be made to pay for them.
Overall, you want to begin by giving the impression that you are ready to buy today, but that you also don't need to. While you may like the car enough to buy it, there are also other cars that you like that would satisfy your needs. And while the car may be OK, it has certain aspects that you don't care for that make buying it somewhat of a compromise. (Settling for something that isn't optimal is laying the groundwork for a downward bump -- why pay more when you are settling already on the product.)
That's not meant to be comprehensive, just an idea of the types of things that you can do. But what I wouldn't do is go in with both guns blazing, proclaiming that you are a know-it-all who won't be cheated and refusing to take a test drive. Once I've decided that I like the product enough to buy it, I see the test drive on purchase day (which will not have been my first) as an opportunity to gain intel on the salesperson and to burn his/her time. That's what s/he is doing to you, no reason why that you can't make that time work in your favor.
You don't need to be overwhelmingly friendly at all. You should match your demeanor to suit your personality, but I would suggest that being extremely friendly or unfriendly is unnecessary.
And walking is the good trump card, just so long as you don't do it too soon. Timing is important -- they need to feel that they have done what they can to bump you before they'll give up. If you are a good negotiator who is willing to walk, the dealership will realize that you can do just as well with other dealers, and will take your money so that you don't give it to someone else. If you are a poor negotiator or they sense that your appetite for shopping is limited, then they have less reason to believe that you could replicate the good deal elsewhere and may hang on in the belief that you are bluffing.
You may ask me any questions you want, but I may choose to not answer them.
If a sales person asks silly questions, then ignore them.
Three come immediately to mind:
1) Where the car is selling for in excess of MSRP. Shelbys are a current example;
2) Where the dealer is willing to sell a fairly hot product for less than competitors and thereby increase volume; and
3) Where the vehicle is tough to sell (e.g. Katrina cars, last year's leftovers).
One way to circumvent that is to ask questions of your own. If you ask the right questions without being rude, it won't be obvious that it's a tactic on your part, and you can give other cues that will reassure them that things are going smoothly in their direction, which is what I prefer to do early on.
I suppose one reason dealerships don't like the "take it or leave it" offer, is because they have almost zero control in the transaction.
Sure, that's part of it. The thing is that dealerships make their money on the new car sale by getting each customer to pay as much as he or she can tolerate (remember the guy above who paid full MSRP for a Hyundai Sonata, then felt good about it?), so the take-it-or-leave-it offer turns them from businesspeople into order takers. People don't get into commissioned sales to become order takers, and can even be offended that you think that they should be one.
Believe me I am not afraid of conflict. I have had plenty of it and to be perfectly honest with you I don’t mind it at all when it’s necessary. It’s just that I don’t feel it’s necessary when you buy a car.
You seem to be obsessed with taking control of the negotiating process. I’m not so unsure of myself that I feel I must demonstrate that I have control, either to convince myself or the salesperson, because I know I have it since I can walk at anytime I want to. Nobody needs any more control than that!
My objective is to buy the car for the price I want to pay. Control, you can have it if that’s what you want, I just want the car at my price.
Just an interesting observation, I’ve spent more time discussing this issue with you than it took me to buy my last two cars.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
You must be reading a different forum. Where did I say this?
What I have pointed out here is that salespeople attempt to gain control. It is very important to them that they have it. They are trained to seek it out, as you can read for yourself above from a sales trainer. (He's training dealers, not buyers.)
I have also pointed that the seller's control is really an illusion. However, that doesn't mean that they still won't try to get it.
My objective is to buy the car for the price I want to pay.
And if you'd like to increase the likelihood that this price you've chosen isn't higher than it needs to be, then you should negotiate. If not, then you pays your money and you takes your chances...
Well, I could be wrong. I thought I remembered where they said they pay sticker. It has been many years ago, and my mind isn't very good any more, so maybe I've mis-remembered.
-Controlling the customer includes making sure that the customer doesn't control the process
-The dealer is convinced that this is important not just for his own sales, but for the good of the customer!
IMO, it is entirely possible to "control" the conversation but it certainly does not follow that the customer is controlled. This sounds more like a gimmick to instill confidence in a sales force than to truly control the sale.
In my own experience, I'll let a salesperson feel he or she is in control but, in the end, I'll buy only if the price is right and the vehicle conforms to my requirements. At best, their feeling of control is an illusion.
tidester, host
I wouldn't say all payment buyers are dumb, Just like anything else if done right can yield proper results. As long as your firm on it being a purchase (as opposed to a lease), term of the loan and the downpayment they only way to bring down the payment is reduce the interest and/or the price of the car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Your opinion is 100% correct (for once :P ). Sure let them control the conversation, let them control everything if I can't get what I want at the price I want I'm gone without buying.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That I agree with and is what I'm advising as well. There's no point in wrestling over control, when you know in the back of your mind that you already have it, and that it isn't really important for the buyer to maintain it over the seller. Since the illusion of control can serve the buyer, then sure, let the salespeople believe that they have achieved it.
This sounds more like a gimmick to instill confidence in a sales force than to truly control the sale.
That's where I'll differ with you. There's a bit more to it than just cheerleading, there really often is a concerted effort to control and dominate the customer. A lot of the complaints that you hear about dealerships are the result of dealers using these tactics in a forceful manner, but that doesn't mean that the "nicer" ones aren't attempting a variation of the same thing.
I've been through more than a few of those sales training seminars. All if it can be boiled down to a couple of points.
--make sure you've got what the customer needs/wants. While they make a big deal of finding the customer's TRUE motivation to buy by asking lots of questions and listening, if you don't have what they want, NO SALE.
--find out the true objections that the customer has about buying your product/service (in the car world, it could be color, model, price, etc)
--control the conversation (or negotiations). While that makes for good training fodder, no one can control another person's actions or conversation unless the other person is willing to be controled.
All that said, I view the whole control issue as just "fluff". You've got your offer. You're willing to walk away with your checkbook. No sale will be made without someone handing over their money. That's the ultimate control. I don't get all hung up on that. I know where I want to be. It's up to the dealer to get me there....and to do so easily and efficiently. 9 times out of 10, that happens. If it doesn't, I'm not a buyer at that dealership.
In my own experience, I'll let a salesperson feel he or she is in control but, in the end, I'll buy only if the price is right and the vehicle conforms to my requirements. At best, their feeling of control is an illusion.
Bingo!!! An informed car buyer is ALWAYS in control of the purchase since they're writing the check. Sure, the sales person can control the process they go through, but in the end it's whoever is spending their money. Also, note that I said an informed buyer.
If it was just fluff, then it wouldn't be preached from the mount to the sales force. Obviously, professional sellers see some benefit in gaining control, or they wouldn't try to get it.
You are correct to the extent control can be an illusion, but obviously, there is something more to it, given the degree of emphasis placed on it by the dealership. The buyer who understands the tactic can manage it easily enough, but failing to realize that the effort is being made is more likely to result in higher prices. It helps the buyer to know that gaining control is seen as a milestone on the path to closing a sale, rather than pretending that it isn't an issue at all.
I picked up my G35x yesterday at the dealership. I negotiated my price via e-mail. I offered a price btwn $28 and $29k. I received it. The doc fees were lowered after some negotiation and the DMV fees were overcharged by about $10. I got the best price for this particular vehicle in the tri-state area.
Summary:
1. I did interact with several dealers to secure the most competitive price. I did try to get dealers to match the lowest bid.
2. I did not disclose the lowest bidder, the exact price or any other details; I posed it as "can you meet this price?" the other dealers could not....
I did not get stellar sales treatment; specifically - they weren't as accomodating as other dealerships. however, they weren't nasty either.
I declinded the other products they tried to sell me. I walked out the door with my car and my finances in a state I can be happy with.
All in all it was a successful transaction. I thank you all for your input, help and advice.
But, hey, who's counting? :P :P
tidester, host
That's all that matters.
Thanks for the reinforcement...
Whether CR pays MSRP or less, their tests are of NO WORTH unless they inform the consumer what they can buy for X dollars.
I never cease to be amazed that people will pay $ 12 to get a worthless CR printout on how to get a good price for a vehicle when they don't "practice what they preach." :lemon:
I think forums like this one are a much more accurate way of determining the current price. I agree I would not spend $12 for a consumer reports printout either but I don't think there is anything "dishonest" about them.
Not really. That assumes that there is some sort of Magic Price that everyone can pay if they ask for it, and that this price isn't subject to change.
Car prices are all over the board. One person might pay sticker on a car that someone else buys under invoice. Some reasons for the differences:
-Some buyers are better negotiators and have done more research than others. It's a skill, not just luck.
-Some dealers want/need to sell cars at better margins than do other dealers. Just as Walmart doesn't sell at the same prices as does your local convenience store, dealers vary in their volume and profit objectives.
-Prices can vary from day to day at a given dealership based upon the need to move inventory, or incentives to move it. Read Kdhspyder's excellent posts on the Sales on the Frontlines forum, and you'll see a good discussion of why cars can sometimes even be sold at a loss for the sake of managing inventories and other reasons.
There are other reasons than this, these are just a few examples to explain the point. Don't assume that any guide is going to give you an "ideal" price. You'll need to do your homework to get a decent guess, and then negotiate effectively to see if you can meet or beat your guesstimate, and not depend strictly on any one resource.
It's baaaack. I just got my un-asked for Advanced Auto Parts mailer for December 2006. For only $9.88 you can get yourself/friends a Professional's Favorite Corinthian Leather Steering Wheel Cover. Color choices are: New Black (as opposed to Old Black?) or Black/Gray.
Ideal for all you car enthusiasts out there and at this price no grinding is necessary.
Just trying to be helpful with stocking-stuffers.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Guys, please carefully read the sales receipt given to you (for your signature) by the dealership.
On my reciept, there was a paragraph entitled "Arbitration" that they wanted me to sign and date. I did not sign it, because I would have signed away my rights to sue if something went wrong.
This is a popular tactic in a lot of business areas. I caution consumers, not to sign it and to walk away if the dealer tries to "encourage" you to do so.
Based on my experiences, I don't think the dealer can force a customer to sign an arbitration agreement.
Best again.
"The Yogi Fan"
And those same factors would apply to other buyers, wouldn't they? So tell us EXACTLY what CR paid.
>I think the only fair way would be to put the MSRP. It would be best for them to put a disclaimer telling people this.
They can put MSRP but also put EXACTLY what they paid. Other people can extrapolate from there.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Hurry while supplies last! :P
As pointed out above, it really bears no relationship to what you might pay -- different dealer, region of country, time of year, availability of rebates, etc. Are you going to walk into a dealership saying, "CR paid $xx,xxx, so give me the exact same price?"
It's nothing more than a "price paid" datapoint like you'd find in the Edmunds forums.
Seems to me that using MSRP in the magazine reports is the best for "apples to apples" comparisons.
OTOH, their $12 printouts for a given make/model give you MSRP and invoice prices, as well as holdback, consumer rebates, and dealer incentives (same info you can get for free on Edmunds) so you can negotiate YOUR best deal when YOU decide to buy.
Well as you might guess I am a pretty big fan of CR for most things. Cars are just not one of them. I still do not think it does any good for CR to say just how much it paid for a car but I agree it would not hurt anything. The Camry or the FJ are good examples. When they first came out you had to fight very hard for an ok deal. Now I can buy an LE 4 cyl for invoice all day long. FJ's are selling for way under MSRP when they used to have a couple of thousand dollar premium.
I guess my problem with putting actual priced paid is that many people would take that deal to the car dealer even if it is not a good deal now. The old CR paid this amount so I must be getting a good deal. My problem with the original poster was to say that CR was being dishonest about the whole thing.
Hurry while supplies last!
I hope they didn't run out, I'm headed there now.
Ooooooo..... I can't wait till I get my hands on that stuff.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
The thing about a car on the lot is that it turns the inventory over quicker which in turns reduces their inventory costs. You are not doing that with ordering a car. Secondly taking a car off the lot gives them a sale right then and there, that is something that can be an incentive to the dealer and salesman especially if its near the end of the month.
Can you get a better deal taking a car off the lot. That depends on many circumstances so there is no real good answer. If you are at the end of the month and they are trying to make sales goals then yes you can. If its at the beginning of the month and you are an informed buyer and a decent negotiator then I would say no.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That doesn't mean that you can't do well with an ordered car. But the interest burn is not going to be a motivator for them.