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2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You should know by now that the same tactics that the seller can use can also be used by the buyer. Negotiation tactics are quite fungible in that sense.
For example, the dealership uses deferral of authority as one tactic. (The sales manager must approve everything that the salesman does, and the F&I guy may then try to bump you again.) You can use that one, too, such as claiming that your spouse wouldn't allow it.
For another, the dealer will attempt to good cop-bad cop you with the salesperson playing the good guy and the sales manager wearing the bad hat. If you are shopping with a spouse, you can do the very same thing, with one of you wearing one hat and the other wearing the other.
Negotiation tactics are fairly generic, and both sides employ the same ones. The difference isn't in the tactics themselves, but what you do with those tactics.
Practically every negotiation tactic used by the dealer can also be turned back around on the dealer and used against him. It's a double-edged sword, and it just depends on how you use it.
Now I want to bump him down, and I want an excuse to justify my downward bump.
When I buy I never care what the dealers justifications are for a price that is higher than what I’m willing to pay. He knows his bottom line and when he can’t go any lower. That’s when he says he says yea or nay . Then we either sit down and write it up or I’m down the road looking for my price. It should never take longer than 30 minutes (after the test drive ) to get an answer.
Its always worked for me.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
It really doesn't matter how you get there, just as long as you get there. If you can use the "fees" as a way to do that, then fine; if you can use some other excuses, then use those, too.
I'm simply pointing out that cutting larger numbers into smaller pieces can be one method of getting there. The dealer does this to move prices in his direction, but you as a buyer can use the same methods in reverse.
The people I DON'T like are the Sales Managers and Finance Office.
Yes but why play in his court? Sure I can use their tactics but who is going to win that game? Put him on an arena where I am more comfortable and they are less comfortable gives me a better advantage. You never let the host choose the battlefield.
Tell me why give the dealer any advantage? Regardless of if you can turn it back on them you are still giving them the advantage. An advantage in a game they play every day. Get them off that playing field and you eliminate that advantage.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
are we serious here?
no offense, but it is extremely hard to find an "ethical" business practice when dealing with a car salesman.
Is it ethical when dealers collude to keep the sales prices up on a car? I've found evidence of lawsuits against major dealers for price fixing....
Ethical? gimme a break here....
Folks have said the market rules and competition sets the market. So if the consumer can make the dealer compete, then so be it...
I agree with Ph101...you have to look at the details. True the dealer know's his bottom line. however, it's a mistake not to understand what is going into your bottom line out the door price...
Now if one as a customer is comfortable with this risk, then so be it...however, there are other ways to do it.
Also, if customers pressure dealers as a group by letting them know that many charges are bogus - the customer gets a more competitive market price.
Ethics? really...again, no offense but to discuss ethics here is simply not a viable position....
i've always been a proponent of "don't ask, don't get"..but i understand that to some folks it's just not worth it.
however, this is a good exchange of ideas; you never know when this discussion will come in handy..IMHO.
What do you think are bogus charges? Other than outlandish DOC fees (we discussed those yesterday, and I did say that is up the consumer to make those changes as a group)
I still do not understand why the common carsalesperson has pay for the sins of his elders and are scrutinized as they are.
the discussion is more about unethical sales practices. not salespeople who deal well with the customer. if you are happy with what you've gotten, then so be it. there's nothing further to do.
however, in those situations where you are more price sensative and you are dealing with salesmen/dealers who are not ethical, then competition is competition.
if you have a salesperson who is dealing well with you and you believe you will get good service from the dealership - then you've got a great deal...that's the true objective. not just price alone.
however, the discussion is about the ethics of charging fees that don't exist. i would submit that an ethical dealer/salesman can substantiate a VALID reason for ALL charges, not the "everyone pays this" insanity. That's all my point is. NOT to jerk around the reasonable salesperson or dealership.
I don't believe that there is anything here that is adverse to what you've stated earlier...
No need to be controversial on edmunds....
since when do two wrongs make a right?
with this kind of attitude, no wonder we're stuck in this endless cycle of bad salesperson/bad customer stereotypes...
my two cents...
-thene
why is it unethical to get a competing price from another dealer? If you know what your price is, but initially the dealer won't match it...you find another dealer who will BUT you would prefer to deal with the other dealer..
why not ask the preferred dealer to match it? If they can they will, if they can't they won't. If the dealer you like so much CANT AFFORD to match it, but you want to do business with him, then go ahead...I really don't see what's wrong with that scenario...The customer is not lying to or hiding key information from the dealer.
The final decision as to where to buy the car lies with the customer anyhow. So if you want to pay the higher price and go with the preferred dealer, then do so. I don't see anything wrong with that scenario...
The wrong here is that car salemen lie to the customer to get more money from them....that's it.
why is the customer wrong for protecting himself? I truly don't understand that one....
Yeah some times the results is better, sometimes worse, so what are you going to do?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
For example. My store is the lowest volume New Car Audi Store in the Area. We are a one owner operation. We offer specialized service to all our clients, we offer a competitive compensation package to our employees. The other stores, which are part of a auto group and one is owned by SONIC, (and if you want to talk about ethics, google Sonic autogroup.) We will never be the cheapest in town, but you will be treated the best. There are somedeals that are presented to us that we just cant do that the others stores can, because we are small. So for me I feel the burn even more when a customer that I invest alot of time with goes to my competition over a small amount of money knowing that they will not get the personalized treatment I will give them.
I can't understand why seeking out the best deal is unethical.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
customers lie and act unethical in their own right when it comes to buying a car, and that behavior only begets more unethical behavior from a dealer...its like a really bad cycle.
all the while, the good, honest dealers get screwed by it...from both ends!
my two cents...
-thene
1.
Pulling a price out of thin air and saying another dealer gave that to you so why can't we match it.
For example you tell dealer A that Dealer B gave you a price of 23,000 OTD and want to see if dealer A will match it.
The problem is Dealer B gave you a price of 25,000 OTD or maybe no price at all because you never went there.
2. Doing the same thing above but with a trade in. Dealer B gave then 8,000 dollars for their trade but they tell dealer A they were given 10,000.
3. OH my car has never been in an accident. Then we pull up carfax and see not one but two accidents.
Oh I forgot about those.
4. Oh I have never had any paint work. Pull out a paint meter and bam the whole passenger side has been painted.
I could go on but I gotta sell two more new cars by Thursday.
You start debating the offer, the doc fees, the marketing fees, etc....you're going to turn a 15 minute negotiating session into a 2-3 hour marathon....with no better results.
As snake says, we're not trying to negotiate world peace here.
There are several people that post here that know it isn't difficult at all. However, it seems like every time we get a new poster or someone digs up the subject again, we all start to hash over this subject all over again because we're nice guys just trying to help.
Why don't we just make a recording, it would save a lot of key strokes.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
We have a edmunds customer in right now who is negotiating an Audi special lease program. Fantastic!
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm a smart enough customer but am not insane about it. If you do your comparing a little you'll get to the neighborhood price pretty quickly. Once I'm there it's just a matter of what, in terms of the total package, you are getting for your money.
Example - I can probably beat the local Honda guy by a few bucks, but the one in town will give me a loaner when it's in for service if I bought the car there. That's worth something. It's up to me to decide just what it's worth.
It's a shame when certain megadealers get a corner on a particular make for the area. I'd have to travel considerably out of my way to buy a Nissan. The guy in town is a snake and he's got the next three closest dealerships.
Sad but true story. When I bought my current 00 Accord I came thatclose to buying a Passat wagon. Nice enough sales guy and little pressure. The only reason I didn't buy it is because I'd had one of those 80 Rabbits built in Pennsylvania and still have nightmares.... Anyway, just as well on the Passat. A couple of months later the dealership burned down. They are only just now - 7 years later - beginning to rebuild!
now to bigdveedubgirl - these/my statements are not intended to offend you. I would (and frequently do) pay more for service when I get it. I am an advocate of keeping the smaller business and good business in operation.
But the truth of the matter in my area is that it is difficult to find...I started this by asking about a ridiculous fee that the dealer I've done business with tried to charge. I fought it and today, finally got it removed. I chose a strategy that worked with the help of the people who post here.
I was not looking to burn a dealer, get anything other than what I can afford to pay for. If I can't afford it, so be it. There are many others out here who don't wish to be burned by dealers and would love to do business with you.
I began my odyssey many months ago....Dealers tried to overcharge me by THOUSANDS..not hundreds. If I didn't look at the detail of the deal, it might have worked. BUT I did and all consumers should. I would gladly pay a couple of hundred dollars more (the cost of the ridiculous fees) if I knew that the service/intangibles I received from the dealer will come. However, in my area - one can't be sure. AND when time comes for me to service my car, the best provider will win..small dealership, I hope.
I hope your dealership does well and I wish it all the best.
I would also bet that many customers will pay more once they realize the place they buy from will service them well; once they are properly prepared with good information to buy a car. As I said, price is not the end all and be all..
I am an accountant; people trash the ethics of accountants all the time, because the ones who draw attention are the big guys - who tend to be unethical. The little guys bear the brunt of it....So I hear what you are saying.
We are/were talking about unethical practices. If it doesn't pertain to you, which it appears it doesn't, it's a wonderful thing. I hope to find an ethical dealer in my area, like you. AND if I do, I will treat them right...
I'm done. happy, happy everyone and thanks again for the help.
-The Yogi Fan
I like your style, I can relate to it.
Have you posted anywhere the outline of your car buying technique?
I used to try to negotiate every dealer fee, but now I'm leaning to the OTD way. Set your price and be prepared to walk.
I have had no success in the NY area using the dealer fees for buying a 2007 Sonata. I will attempt to buy again at the end of December but this time I will try the OTD method. It's my money so why do I have to justify anything to a dealer. They either agree to the price you set or you say bye. Screw them.
Don’t tell us that ‘dhamilton’ (of Stories From the Sales Frontlines forum) showed up and is now trying to hammer you. Or, is it another nice Edmunds guy?
Just curious, when Edmunds people come in are they knowledgeable or do they turn into jerks just like the normal off the street customers that you guys in the biz keep telling us about?
Either way you should have a tale for us, right?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Nope, nobody would pay me what I thought it was worth, so I showed them what happens when you try to grind 'jmonroe'
I used to try to negotiate every dealer fee, but now I'm leaning to the OTD way. Set your price and be prepared to walk.
Lots of good info here from some of the best guys who are and aren't in the biz.
Welcome aboard,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Do you let the dealer make the first price move and then counter with your OTD?
Or you make the first move with the OTD?
Why pay $ 12 to Consumer Reports when they are too stupid to negotiate a discounted price on the vehicles they test? :lemon:
When they compare vehicles, they always use MSRP instead of the actual prices people pay.
The whole dealership sales model is built around you doing business on the dealer's court, anyway -- it can't be helped, that's what the showroom is all about. The guys who write the car sales training manuals keep preaching to the salesmen that they must "take control", and the showroom is designed to help them to provide the illusion that they have it.
Which is the point -- while they do strive for control, ultimately that control is just an illusion. (As a buyer with the checkbook, the buyer has feet and can walk, while the seller is stuck there and is judged negatively if he can't move product.) I find it much easier to make them unsteady if they think that they have control and then take it away from them than it is to fight over it in the beginning. The latter just creates a tug of war, and actually makes you weaker by giving them too much intel about you.
You need to understand that dealers have strategies for dealing with both the wimpy customer who wants to be his best friend AND with the strongarm tough guy who wants to get into the ring with them from the get-go. They have seen both before and have tactics that can be equally effective on both.
What they are less prepared for is someone who starts out by playing the game, but then starts slowly turning the tables on them as the deal progresses. If you let them feel that they have gained control, then they become overconfident, which will make them more anxious to close the deal (they can taste the money at that point) and more inclined to make mistakes. Your best position is when the guy has invested so much in you that he can't afford for you to say no. The smart buyer is always in the superior position, because the seller is pressured to sell, but a buyer can (or should) always afford to walk.
Or you make the first move with the OTD?
Once you have done your research and have arrived at a price, you can get an e-mail quote from several dealers to see what their first offer is or you can go to the showroom.
The last time I bought I went the e-mail route to several dealers. Then I followed up with a phone call to the dealer who had the closest price to mine to speed up the process. He of course was higher than my price but close enough that I thought we could come to terms. Once he knew my price and knew I was not going to change from this price he said he would have to go to his boss to get approval and said he would call me back. He called back in 20 minutes and said we had a deal. It was really just that simple.
You can go to the showroom and do it face to face if you prefer but the principle is the same. You can either ask the salesperson for their best price (which will always be higher than your price) or you can just lead with your price. You have to hold to your price and not spend more than 30 minutes to get your price otherwise you leave and shop elsewhere. This method takes more time but it’s you’re choice how you want to do it.
Good luck,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I believe that they quote the MSRP, but whether they pay the MSRP, I don't know. (I would suspect that they don't want every buyer to think that whatver they paid was the "ultimate" price, so quoting the MSRP would be safer.)
But I agree -- you don't need to pay CR for invoice pricing that you can get here or at KBB for free. The invoice numbers are the same from every source -- they all get their numbers from the manufacturers -- so it doesn't really matter who you get it from. Splurge by spending the $12 on a half-cup of coffee at your favorite coffeehouse...
He who names the first number loses, because that person has drawn a price line that won't be crossed again. If you're buying, that means that you've just set the bottom, and you'll never pay less than that amount. This increases the likelihood that you will pay too much.
If you are going to negotiate, with or without the OTD method, at least make your first offer something less than your maximum price, and then allow for a couple of "bumps" thereafter. If you do this, make sure that the first bump is fairly small, and that the second one is less than the first. And don't give up a bump until you've gotten one from the dealer first -- don't increase an offer without gaining a concession in return.
Again, the "fee" argument just becomes an excuse to justify a price decrease. Any excuse that can be said with a straight face is valid.
Here's an exercise for anyone ready to go shopping -- before you buy, come up with a list of at least 6-8 reasons/justifications/alibis for getting a downward "bump" from the dealer and/or holding firm to your number. The complaints can be real or imagined, and you should come up with ideas that are credible for you (for example, don't plead poverty if you are buying a BMW), but come up with several reasons why the price needs to go down and yours isn't going up.
The mistake made by a lot of buyers is to allow themselves to first start out too high, and then to get bumped upward at a pace dictated by the dealer, instead of starting low, holding firm to that low price for awhile, and then only giving up a bump or two if it turns out to be needed. Don't feel obligated to respond to higher counteroffers in an endless game of "split the difference" -- instead, stand behind your price, and use the bumps strategically and only as necessary. That's where the alibis and excuses will come in handy.
This is part of their testing procedure. They do not want price paid to be any part of it. They know this is not the price paid by most people, but since the manufactor puts this number on the window, this is what they pay. And, this is the number they quote and compare.
This removes price paid from the evaluation, when price paid could vary significantly. (See all the discussions in this topic.)
I've read CR for years, and they do good stuff and some really dumb stuff.
I've read it long enough to remember when they said Air Conditioning was a 'luxury' item, and did not generally recommend it. Yea, let those New Jersey idiots drive a summer in the southwest in a dark colored car without air!
Always is best to get the dealer to make the first offer then adjust yours by it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thats why you try not to do it. Why give them that advantage?
I find it much easier to make them unsteady if they think that they have control and then take it away from them than it is to fight over it in the beginning.
I find that to be a mistake as they usually keep control at that point. But if you believe you snatch it away so be it.
You need to understand that dealers have strategies for dealing with both the wimpy customer who wants to be his best friend AND with the strongarm tough guy who wants to get into the ring with them from the get-go.
I understand that, thats why its best not to let them be in the position to use those stratagies. Once you do you put yourself at a disadvantage.
What they are less prepared for is someone who starts out by playing the game, but then starts slowly turning the tables on them as the deal progresses.
I hate to tell you this but any salesperson worth his or her weight in sales slips can easily deal with that. When I was in sales I loved people who tried that, they would try too turn the tables but by then it was to late. I was firmly in charge and I stayed that way. Best way to keep that from happening was to not play in their court.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But, for the novice or intermediate, I don't think using the 6-8 reasons/justifications, for getting a downward bump from the dealer, would be a good move. Most dealerships are trained on how to counter these moves and offer their own justifications on why these i.e"fees" are necessary and needed. Unless a buyer is knowledgeable on the ins and out of how a dealership operates, trying to out think/debate the dealership on these points could end up costing the buyer money. Better to use something they can't
counter against, i.e " That's all I'm wanting to pay", "I'll go home and recheck my numbers again then let you know", "I'm sorry but your price is just too high, goodbye"
Of course in their writeups in the magazine, they list MSRP, because this is the easiest way to compare prices (after all it's printed right on the window sticker).
With respect to their $12 buyer's packet for a given make/model, they give you the supposed "real price," which is invoice minus holdback, consumer rebates, and dealer incentives. I guess they expect the consumer to make the first offer at this "real price," which in theory means NO gross profit for the dealer. I would think if you make your offer this low, you'd get laughed right out of the showroom.
Actually for those who make an offer (Bobst for example), where do you start -- invoice plus or minus X dollars (assuming no consumer rebates or dealer incentives are available)? Do any of you try to subtract holdback?
Those are examples of what I was talking about previously. The mission heret is to create reasons to object, and to stick to them rather than falling into the temptation to smooth out the situation with more money, i.e. a higher counteroffer.
The basic process is this: salespeople are trained in managing objections. Basic control tactic: Ask questions of the seller, and then try to get the buyer to be unable to address the objection, and then use that to push the buyer to make amends by raising their offer.
One way to avoid the pitfalls of the Q&A game is to have several basic reasons planned out that you can use to say no, and to just keep using them. It's best to have several available with the idea that you probably won't use them all -- have a few in your toolkit so that you can adapt to whatever situation arises.
You're not giving them an advantage, you're creating the basis for a disadvantage. It's the negotiator's equivalent of the Trojan Horse, to disguise a weapon as a gift.
The smart buyer has the inherent advantage, because car sales tactics are similar across the industry, so you can prepare for them very easily. Add to this that sellers are pressured to sell, so they should be more motivated to make a sale than the buyer is to buy.
I hate to tell you this but any salesperson worth his or her weight in sales slips can easily deal with that.
Not really, it actually surprises them because it's not a typical event. But in any case, the point is that by the time that they have figured it out, it's a bit late for them -- they've committed enough effort already to your deal.
The problem with a buyer being "too smart" is that the seller has his guard up, because this is a basic archetype that is seen all of the time. There's no point in getting into a tug-of-war with the guy when you turn the tables so much more easily than that. Direct confrontation just leads to confrontation, and there's no point in having a contest over who can throw his weight around the most.
No your giving them the advantage. Any military strategist will tell you never let the host chose the battlefield.
Not really, it actually surprises them because it's not a typical event.
While not a typical event it shouldn't surprise a good saleasperson and they will use it to their advantage.
Direct confrontation just leads to confrontation,
Who said anything about a direct confrontation? All I am saying is don't play their game.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
How would they do that? Their advantage had already been lost -- they've already gone through all of the brain damage of using their best pitches on you during the test drive, etc. and their hopes were sufficiently raised about making a sale that it will hurt them that much more if they don't make it.
Again, I see no reason for direct confrontation in a situation in which you know that the other guy has been trained to deal specifically with that. The buyer-who-wants-to-be-your-best-friend and the hostile buyer are two basic profiles that they understand a good deal about.