Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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People tend to project their own attributes on people as a whole. Because of this honest people tend to have the belief that all people are generally honest while dishonest people tend to think that everyone is generally dishonest.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Then you had a deal plane and simple. If its the price you want then you got it. Honor your commitment. You might have left money on the table you might not of, but thats not important. Whats important is that you offered to buy the car at a set price and the dealership accepted. You have all the conditions for a contract (presuming you are of legal age and have legal capacity) you should honor it.
I would suspect that if you would have gone into the dealership and asked for a price and they gave you one and you accepted without hesitation then they backed out you would be here complaining about it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
that could have very well been the case, that salesman or dealership maybe just needed to make one more sale and you hit the jackpot.
there isn't any reneging going on here,
Yes there is, you made an offer and it was accepted and you failed to go through with it, thats renigging in anyones book. You had a verbal contract and you should honor it unless there is some special circumstance.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Hate to tell you this, I have spent many years in sales and will honestly tell you everyone leaves money on the table. In every deal someone (usually both) leave money on the table. It just not worth it going for that extra money thats on the table.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"Some conversation" was a verbal offer. The offer was accepted and the "buyer" then reneged on his commitment.
No "damage" just a breach of ethics at least in my book.
Your opinion may vary...
In most (maybe all) states the deal is done when both parties sign on the dotted line. However with sales under a certain dollar amount the sale is make as soon as an offer is accepted (cars would not fall under this as I believe most states that dollar amount is $500.00). So while you may not have a legal obligation to buy if the offer was accepted you do have a moral one IMHO.
Isell is 100% right on this one.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There are good dealers and bad ones. There are good customers and bad ones. I suggest we refrain from generalizations and stick to getting the best deal because (a) it is the designated topic and (b) it's just too darned hot to get steamed over our prejudices.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Why do you think dealers would offer you their lowest price when you are not even in the sales office with your checkbook? To them, I bet you are just a few words on a computer screen kicking tires from a remote location.
Go out and make some offers equal to what YOU want to pay. You make your best deal happen when you show them the money.
Now go out and buy yourself an Odyssey.
Or, he just changed his mind about buying it for the amount he offered. So what? Big deal! People change their minds about lots of things for lots of reasons. I'm not saying I'd do it, but I don't care if he does it.
Different negotiating techniques from yours, or what you'd like to think is fair, DO exist. Like it or not.
Deals get WAY better than that sometimes.
If they don't say no to at least one of your offers and if you don't say no to at least one of their offers then it is a really safe bet that neither side got the best deal.
Yeah I will bargain hard but when they agree on my price or sometimes better as their are incentives I didn't know about I'll buy the car. If they try and squeeze me for other stuff later I tell them "NO" if they keep pushing, I tell them one ore time for the financing or extended warrant or anything and I walk right now. I've walked because a dealer didn't believe me.
I don't see it as the guy burning the dealership, i mean really people back out of purchases all the time and there was no earnest money so there was no real deal there.
I've never had a dealer remotely try and lock me into a deal unti8l they see some green in their hand. Until that time it's still a probable sale, not a given. I used to be a senior purchasing agent and I've worked for more than few large companies and I KNOW what we have to do to save even a few cents per part.
Once there is green it's still not a done deal. The only time it's a done deal is when you have the customers money in your pocket. Until then it's not a completed deal.
I see far more problems with car sales people taking advantage of buyers than the other way around.
If there really was accountability for dealers as well as honesty and integrity and where a handshake truly meant something then, ok. But i'm not seeing it in any dealerships I have been to in the US. Outside the US it's very very different.
Should I just state this verbally? Should I write it on the back of an envelope? Or is there some more formal way of showing that I'm serious?
I know that legally, the sale isn't made until a contract is signed but do salespeople use some sort of formal offer form that they present to the sales manager?
In the past, with used cars, I've just made an offer over the phone and if it was accepted put a deposit on my credit card. I'm now in the market for a new car which may have to be ordered. Just wondering what to expect.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
That has been my personal experience except for 1 subaru dealer who was actually quite good to me and a friend of mine was a salesman there. Oh and I told them what I wanted to pay and were were off by $300 with no chance for any lower and I figured what the heck and bought it and was happy with the car. That's pretty rare tho and the only time a dealership didn't pull any stunts, but theme were a small dealership.
Oh and many years ago I worked for 2 different dealerships one place was huge volume and I was a lotman and ditto for the smaller other place so I know what goes on at dealerships.
But yes with 1 exception I have seen dealers resort to all sorts of tactics to BS the customers and you know trusting a dealer isn't something people tend to do and for good reason.
So, with that in mind, it's perfectly OK for someone to make an offer to buy the car at a certain price, and then when the price is accepted, reneg on the offer.
Yes actually because he is the purchaser and you are the seller, you do it for a living, the buyer does not. Until your sale is complete the buyer can withdraw at any time (that's why many dealerships want ca$h) They can refuse to return it to you even if they change their figures later.
Fair enough. I guess since it was a car dealership it's allright to reneg on a commitment. At least in your book.
I've certainly seen dealerships do that without the slightest worry about ethics. But you are governed by laws and business practices and must abide by them. The buyer is not governed by that and you darn well know it. You don't like it when a buyer pulls out but the fact is they do and for many reasons and I'm sure how bad they make the customers feel as I've seen it happen to a friend when he was laid off (Reagan era) and had everything ready to go at the dealership, but now no job, not his fault and he had to almost go to court to get his $500 deposit back.
until the car is all signed over and driven off the lot paid for by either cash from the customer or the bank it is NOT a done deal, period.
Politically Correct nonsense. Some people are just not trustworthy. Your sweeping generalization is a straw man and doesn't hold up in the real world. I tend to think all car dealers are dishonest and I myself am not dishonest nor a car dealer. Your argument doesn't hold water.
As stated in an earlier posting everyone has their own technique on getting the best deal just because my first offer was accepted doesn't mean I have to finalize the sale this salesman isn't out any money he will move on to the next customer to make a sale, i'm one of many customers the salesman will see during the course of a day. again there isn't any contracts signed nor did i take delivery.
Nope it doesn't matter. Since all of those would be your mistake that you should have known about they all (with the exception of no money) would not void a legal contract.
FWIW I know contract law and I have mentioned that in car purchases nothing is legally set until the contract is signed. However morally that is a different story.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think madmanmoo said it best, "I promise not to treat you like my last bad customer if you promise not to treat me like your last bad sales person". I've had my share of run ins with slimy sales persons and won't give them my business at any price.
Anyway there were no general sweeping generalizations in my post. If you noticed I said that people tend to have that belief not that all have it.
Finally the argument does hold water and has been accepted by physiologists for at least a century. Many personal profiles include questions the probe into this. Research it if you want. Dishonest people tend to think that all people are generally dishonest while honest people tend to think that people are generally honest.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In case you are not aware of it verbal contracts over $500.00 are not legally binding (per UCC, laws in your state may vary).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Playing the "law" card is just a way for a customer to make themselves feel better about not living up to there side of the bargain. If Isell was a customer and posted that story in reverse the majority here would be ready to send a lynch mob to the lot, tell him to call the local news, and report it to the BBB.
But since it was the consumer who tried to pull a fast one then it is really no big deal :confuse:
I wish people understood that buying a car is nothing more then a business transaction, it is nothing to get upset about. If we can't get together, thats fine. maybe the fact I treated you with respect and didn't act like an a-hole will make you come back and try me again next time.
If the average consumer treated all transactions as they do a car sale we would be living in a miserable world.
People that work for Ford also get 4 X-plans a year to give to who ever they want. its called the Friends and Family plan.
too many people these days dont care about what they do as being ethical or unethical...as long as they get what THEY want, the ends justifies the means.
sad state of affairs, i say...
-thene :sick:
Man I would love to see you try that on non-mass market cars but since you only buy Hondas I guess that is not going to happen.
Not to insult Hondas but can you imagine only eating vanilla ice cream your whole life? I like Vanilla Ice cream, and I like Hondas although I have never owned one they are easy to work on and I appreciate that, but I like to try different kinds of ice cream sometimes.
That won't work on a Honda either.
I don't spend much time with people who pull the "Holdback" argument on me.
Hey, if nothing else, this discussion has taught me a lot.
It seems there are people out there who feel as I do. When a commitment is made, a person should stick by it.
There are others who feel it's OK to weasel out of an offer once it is made, especially if a car dealership is involved.
The Honda thing went more with the only ever eating vanilla ice cream.
When a commitment is made, a person should stick by it.
That goes for anything. Just because there are dishonest people out there, it doesn't make it right for YOU to be dishonest. Just because there are thieves out there, it doesn't make it right for YOU to steal. Just because there are morally ambiguous people out there.... just because there are lazy people out there.....
You get the picture.
Keep doing what you do, Isellhondas!
-Moo
Yeah, I think each state would vary. When I took contract law in college in NY, only contracts involving real estate had to be writing. Anything else, regardless of value was fair game for a verbal contract.
Would you have felt better if they would have "bumped" your offer?
I think you're confusing a good offer with how much negotiation time is spent at the table.
Some of us research and then decide what a good price is. We make our offer. If it's accepted, great...we've bought a car. If not, we move on to the next dealership. We know exactly what we're going to pay....before we walk through the dealership's door.
If the average consumer treated all transactions as they do a car sale we would be living in a miserable world.
It's a very good thing for dealers that most customers don't know how badly the dealers have taken advantage of them. Morality and ethics are only pipe dreams for any of the dealers I have ever had to deal with except for one.
Most salesman act like very poorly and in my book you earn respect it's not automatic. But of course this forum is full of car dealers talking about how wonderful and ethical and moral they are yet when I'm in dealerships and have to go through hell each time and I could pull up a lot of people who hate/dread going to car dealerships. So if you guys are so great, why do most people feel that way?
You guys always spin it in your favor sure why not charge over MSRP for all the times you sold at or below invoice it's good for you but MSRP is just a number, is it moral to raise up the price $5,000 because you want to make a bigger profit? I know all the car dealers will say it is and spin it to where it's really good. The manufacturer only suggest that price right and did you guys sign contracts or sake hands that you agree to sell it for that price? Probably not easier to be moral if the price on the car is just a vague number.
Imagine if customers really all did things the way you guys claim? Why it would change the industry.
Truth in advertising, can't advertise the car for a price that everyone can't get, yeah right, like that will ever happen. I noticed all those questions I posed were neatly sidestepped.
We realize you have had bad experiences. If you want to paint all of us with the same brush, go right ahead.
And if you want to pay MSRP for a car, that's fine too. I'm not a crook for not giving you a discount.
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I've seen a lot of postings about laws and rules and ethics well the next time I step foot into a dealership I should ask the salesperson to break out their book on dealer ethics.
As stated in an earlier posting everyone has their own technique on getting the best deal just because my first offer was accepted doesn't mean I have to finalize the sale this salesman isn't out any money he will move on to the next customer to make a sale, i'm one of many customers the salesman will see during the course of a day. again there isn't any contracts signed nor did i take delivery.
Still don't get it do you?
Who remembers from back.. god.. 7 years ago maybe? Someone posted on here a price on a car that was the same as the brand that I was a sales manager for.
"We bought a black/ecru Ultra Luxury with chrome 17s for $6,000 off from Lexus of Orlando" was the line if memory serves.
At the time they had just come out, even JM wasn't budging on list.
I remember the post causing a ruckus... and I remember posting "Hi, I work at Lexus of Orlando, we have only delivered one car like that so far and it was pre-sold at MSRP" I am paraphrasing a tad, I can't remember if it was a Lexus or a Jag XJR.. I know it was a high-demand car that sold for list at the time.
Like anything else, take things with a grain of salt. It's also possible that regional incentives exist.
You leave money on the table every day when you buy groceries, go to restaurants, use banking and financial services, cable, phone, lawyers, plumbers... and the list goes on and on. Do you approach those situations the same way? I bet you could save more on your car insurance by making a couple phone calls than you could by making offers and withdrawing them at car dealers.
Why is there an acceptable double standard here (goes for both buyers and sellers). Decide on your price, make your deal and enjoy your life.
Most salesman act like very poorly and in my book you earn respect it's not automatic. But of course this forum is full of car dealers talking about how wonderful and ethical and moral they are yet when I'm in dealerships and have to go through hell each time and I could pull up a lot of people who hate/dread going to car dealerships. So if you guys are so great, why do most people feel that way?
Could that be because you didn't get the absolute lowest price or deal that was available on a slow moving model/color at end of model year and end of month/quarter/year that someone else did?
Look I'm the last person to defend car sales tactics as I find them as distasteful as the next person. But how is the industry different from Best Buy? They sell TVs an upsell service contracts, monster cables and installations.
In a free market, the best deals end to go to those that are the most informed, most flexible and willing to work for it.
I bought a 60" plasma recently and someone on AVS Forum posted a source for a lower price. Does that mean the retailer I bought from is a crook? Are people that quote me double to do painting and work at my house crooks too?
We got off track, but unfortunately the system is set up with a great deal of distrust. Bottom line is you have to able to sleep at night.
Sometimes you just can't get your point across. Someone quote "Cool Hand Luke". We've got a failure to communicate.
-Moo
I'd prefer that people not do that here!
It's distracting, narrow minded and really doesn't address the question of how to get the best deal.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
He'll be very helpful, I guarantee it!
Basically, go into the store, pick out the car that fits in your budget make a deal and a friend, then move on. Buying a car is very very easy. Dealers don't want your in the dealership that long, it should only take about an hour, not 3. If customers start off being defensive and making ridiculous offers, your gonna get that in return.
One more thing...your payoff is YOUR fault.