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Honestly, that's the only way I can explain why we seem to keep debating the same points which actually misses the point.
While I will try to minimize such redundancy here, I do feel compelled to respond to a couple things:
If the deal is $X plus your trade in then it doesn't matter how the numbers work out. Getting the car for $25K and getting $10K for your trade in is the exact same thing as getting the car for $20K and getting $5K for your trade in, or getting the car for $15K and nothing for your trade in. There is no difference.
Then what exactly is the point of using the trade-in to establish a price? If as you say it makes no difference in the final deal - the dealers typically have less "wiggle-room" with the new car price, and much more with the trade-in value. Makes far more sense to first establish rock-bottom new car price, then get all you can for the trade-in. New car price should not change if you really got the best price when starting out. In your scenarios you've actually brought in two totally different animals and yet want to negotiate them as if they were similar. This truly confuses the issue. And it actually does make a difference. Increased purchase price can effect license, fees, taxes, insurance, etc. Seems to me you just reinforced my position that the purchase price should be established before anything else is discussed, especially trade-in values.
But I spent maybe 60 seconds "negotiating" on two of my purchases
"Virtually impossible unless someone offered and that offer was accepted right off the bat."
Not impossible at all. I've done it multiple times. This gets right to what we both say is so important: research! In each of my purchases I established an extremely narrow OTD price range based solely upon the purchase price of the car. I knew exactly which vehicle and configuration I wanted, I even knew the VIN and if they had it on their lot. After the initial "hello" with the salesperson, I very politely told them exactly what I wanted and what I would pay, and that I would sign the papers right now if they accepted my offer. If they said no, then it's thank you, good bye. And off I go to another dealer who also has what I'm looking for. Each time the salesperson left to speak with their Finance Mgr. Each time they came back with a yes. I truly fail to see how this is complicated. It's worth mentioning that I also made a point of approaching salespeople with my offer only during mid-week late morning. (Typically a very slow time.)
My personal experience is that anyone who boasts that they can sell ice to eskimos usually would have trouble selling ice in hades. FWIW when I was a sales manager using a phrase like that during an interview would automatically disqualify you from the job.
This is a perfect example of not "listening" to what's being said. My friend never made any such boasts. I quoted his mother. He's never been one to brag at all. He actually got out of auto sales in large part because he was finding it was far too easy to take advantage of customers. (see 4-square lol)
Anyhow, I will say that I am surprised at the debate over this. Clearly there are several different tacts that can be used to purchase a car at a great price. I don't doubt someone can get a good price by throwing the whole kit-n-kaboodle (what an odd phrase) on the table and negotiating the whole mess until it's transformed into something that works. My biggest surprise is how vehemently some have challenged my methods and even questioned my results.
After much thought, it finally occurred to me that perhaps the reason for said challenge is that it sounds too easy! What's more, until you've actually tried what I've been advocating, I don't think you are truly qualified to dispute the ease of my strategy, and certainly not the accuracy of my claims.
I don't kow how else to say it:
It is simple,
It does work
I've used it for every new car I've purchased, each an excellent deal.
Enjoy the ride. :shades:
Ciao
According to your logic if you trade in a 2006 on a dealers 2005 you should get retail and they should get wholesale because yours is newer. That won't happen either.
They won't sell, buy or do business with you unless there is profit for them. Period
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
As far as the dealer is concerned and also in states where sales tax and licensing fees are paid on the difference, like they say, the only difference that makes a difference is the difference.
But I believe in some states, you pay sales tax and licensing fees on the entire new car purchase price, not the difference between purchase price minus your trade-in. So I'd want to maximize my trade-in amount and minimize the new car purchase price. If my difference was $10K, for a $30K new car and my 1985 sludge mobile trade-in with 275K miles, I'd want to pay $10001 for the new car but get a trade-in of $19999.
The difference is all that matters, the rest is just both sides grand standing. How much money + my trade do I have to give you.
For example if I have a car for $10K and your trade is $5K then you owe me $5K, the title to your trade, and the tax. If I give you $1 for your car and sell mine for $5001 you still owe me $5K, the title to your trade, and the tax.
Budget crunches have caused the "removal" portion to decrease to 59% this year.
The tax does not apply to lawn mowers thankfully. I'm not sure about ATVs, but boats, trailers, and motorcycles are subject to it.
It was reduced to the point that VA couldn't balance its budget anymore. The plan had been to slowly phase the personal property tax out over a number of years but it stopped at 70% of the old rate because the state couldn't pay its bills.
Right Mack?
(Sorry for this misplaced political comment. I just couldn't help myself....)
If you are bored enough to go through the entire long-winded debate I've been engaged in here, you'll find that from the start I took a positon that a fair offer is what allows dealers to quickly accept it. I have no issues with dealers making a profit. But since salespeople have more than just profit-per-sale pressures - my experience is that a fast sale is worth quite a bit to that salesperson too, especially on a very slow day.
I also am a bit puzzled by your 2005 for a 2006 example. I'm strictly talking about new cars. Trade-in is handled seperately. If a dealer is unable or unwilling to give me what I feel is fair for a trade-in, I can always opt to sell it privately. This does not change the new car purchase price one-iota.
btw - here in Califronia the sales tax is for the entire purchase price. (8.25% in my county)
Finally someone was able to summarize it in two words!
What is your goal when you go to a dealeship? Is it to make yourself feel better, to win something, so satisfy your ego? Or is it to get in, get a car at a fair price and get out?
If it's the first - good luck with the Bobst method, faxing to 20 dealerships, and walking around with a ridiculous price written on a business card.
If it's the second - go online, do some research and make an offer they a dealer will not refuse!
If you want to get a fair price for your trade - sell it privately. If you don't want the headache - trade it.
Here is an example:
I sell VW. If someone walks in to my office, and offers me a $200 under invoice for a 2007 Jetta or Rabbit in stock - they will be driving the car within 60 minutes. I will keep about $300 of holdback, and I moved another '07.
On the other hand, yesterday, a "tough negotiator" offered me $20K out the door on a $21K car. He was out of my office in 60 seconds. Without a car. And no counter-offer, in writing or otherwise.
I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that Bobst is trying to make himself feel better, win something or or trying to satisfy his ego?
If anything it is the exact opposite. You do research, come up with a price you think the dealer will accept and present it in a take it or leave it fashion. If the dealer balks, you walk. No ego involved.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I sell VW. If someone walks in to my office, and offers me a $200 under invoice for a 2007 Jetta or Rabbit in stock - they will be driving the car within 60 minutes. I will keep about $300 of holdback, and I moved another '07.
On the other hand, yesterday, a "tough negotiator" offered me $20K out the door on a $21K car. He was out of my office in 60 seconds. Without a car. And no counter-offer, in writing or otherwise.
I don't see how that is a bad thing. Someone makes an offer they feel is reasonable, either you accept it or you don't, and you both move on. I think its cool you don't dink the "just under invoice" people around, and I think its cool you don't waste your time or the other parties' wrt the "tough negotiator." I wouldn't be offended in either case as a customer.
That's the problem, what is a reasonable offer?
Is it reasonable to offer $3,000 under invoice for a hot-selling car, without any rebates? We call it "An offer not to buy a car".
Is it reasonable to demand pay-off value for the trade?
Is it reasonable to demand Blue Book Value for Gas Guzzling SUV's?
Is it reasonable to ask to sell car at loss, and saying "you will make it up on the next customer"?
Oh I comprehend what you are saying, you seem to not understand what I have said.
Then what exactly is the point of using the trade-in to establish a price?
I never said it was.
Increased purchase price can effect license, fees, taxes, insurance, etc.
In most states it does not.
Seems to me you just reinforced my position that the purchase price should be established before anything else is discussed, especially trade-in values.
I will type this slowly so you will understand it. Suppose you figure the best price for the new car is $20K and the best trade in value is $10K. Now you go in and get that deal and you have done a great deal. But if I had worked the exact same deal and got the car for $15K and got $5K for the trade in but you say that there is a problem with that since I subsidized my purchase price with my trade in. Even though we have the exact same deal.
Not impossible at all. I've done it multiple times.
Its only possible if the offer is immediately accepted and if thats the case for you multiple times I seriously have to question the deals you got.
This is a perfect example of not "listening" to what's being said.
I know what you said and I was using that as an example.
My biggest surprise is how vehemently some have challenged my methods and even questioned my results.
because your methods muddy up the water and your results don't pass the smell test.
I don't think you are truly qualified to dispute the ease of my strategy,
After being in the trenches myself I am qualified to dispute it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If the offer is to low why would it be accepted?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Please read slowly so that you may finally comprehend what is the simplest rebuttal I can offer to each of your "points"
You are quite simply wrong.
Then don't worry about what Joe Schmoe down the street or on the internet later claims he paid for the same car! The guy could be lying or the factory rebates may have increased. No point in beating yourself silly that you just may have gotten a lower price.
How long have you been going at this now? Surely you have some idea of the "right" price to offer?
A sales manager once told me the easiest way to tell whether your deal was good was how hard they pushed you in F&I. High pressure in F&I with mop and glow, gap, extended warranty meant that front end gross was low and vice versa. Not sure if this was true or not but it made sense.
I know exactly what you are saying. Now I will say this from experience on both sides of the issue and one with significant training and experience as a financial analyst what you are on to is not the best way.
You are quite simply wrong.
Ah thats why people here are agreeing with me. OK. :shades:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But you asked me what if the offer is to low. If its to low why would the salesman agree to it?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Maybe so in your area, but there seem to be plenty of buyers here who say making one offer works, or I should say one reasonable offer. I'm going to try it myself the next time.
Regarding the F&I pressure, I don't know if that's true. The F&I guy earns a separate commission from the salesperson on his ability to sell mop 'n glo, extended warranties, and the like, so what should he care what kind of deal you got on the car?
When we purchased our 2004 Camry 3.5 years ago, we were put through the wringer in F&I even though we didn't get a particularly great deal on the car itself. It was insulting, to be honest, with F&I insinuating that the car would break down so we'd need the longer warranty. I said, "Why do you think I'm buying a Toyota in the first place?" Then there was the push for prepaid maintenance, and I retorted "But I like to change my own oil." Needless to say he got ZERO from us.
So a little over a year later when we went back to the same salesman to buy another new Camry, my wife politely asked that we skip F&I entirely. Our wish was granted, AND we got a better deal.
What people have to realize is that a good deal now may not be one two weeks from now or even tomorrow.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
What you're saying is contrary to virtually every knowledgeable educated customer and salesman on this board. You don't have to negotiate hard to get a good deal. Just be professional when presenting your offer and thorough with your research and I believe any deal that is within the dealer's price range will be accepted regardless of how hard it's negotiated. Granted it may take a few times repeating yourself if it's a mini. No disrepect intended but I just don't believe you.
That kind of language scares off noobs and lurkers even if it is made in jest. Let's try to be a little kinder and gentler and make the place more inviting.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
It is what you did a few weeks ago, geffen. The only difference is that when the salesperson accepts bobst's offer, he actually buys the car. :shades:
Whooooshhh!!
The sound of air passing over one's head.
Geffen, the Bobst method has been around for years. Where have you been?
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
If they accepted it then it is obviously not to low.
Thanks for the good wishes, Micro.
By the way, happy Nagasaki Day.
No you don't.
You can make an offer like, "I will give you $14K plus my Junkmobile for your new Jazzmobile." When I did that once, they said Yes, so I gave them a check and drove away in a new car.
One comment though, going back to the origianl backpedal "offer", is knowing exactly how it was worded.
Remember, salespeople often troll numbers that are not legitimate offers, to test the waters.
The old "if I can sell it to you for XXX, would you buy it" trick. He isn't saying he will sell it for that, just trying to get the buyer hooked.
Not really much different from a buyer asking "would you sell it to me for YYY?", in order to find out if a price he has in mind works.
It is different if one side says a Bobst, which is pretty definitive (waving the checkbook around and all).
Doing research to come up with a target price is fine, but very few buyers are really that comfortable that they nailed down the right price to offer. So, it is natural to assume if you toss out the first pencil and the other guy jumps all over it, your calculations might be wrong.
Sales is like poker, in that there is a large psychological element to it (you got a good deal if you think you got one...). Which is why, as I think Joel just pointed out, most salespeople look pained at any offer, and grudgingly take it to the desk, before accepting it, even if the buyer offers a first pencil 4 pounder. Then try and bump them a couple hundred, but not too hard.
The big question is, would Geffen have bought that car, if the sales guy had given him the old "I have to feed my kids speech" and made 4 trips to the desk, trying to bump him $200?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Bobst, myself, and many others feel we can do exactly what you say can't be done. That is, we make an offer that's accepted, even though it may be a nothing deal. Bobst has done it on his beloved Accords. Bobst has relayed he actually bought an
Accord several hundred dollars under invoice. I've done it with numerous purchases, from different manufacturers/dealerships. On my most recent purchase, a BMW 3 series, I offered $250 under the best price I'd seen here at Edmunds "Prices Paid Forumns". Yes, the dealership tried to bump me. I walked. They eventually did accept my original offer, however.
I too, like to deal with the SM or dealer principal, to cut out the "give/take". I have no issuse working with experienced, or non-experienced sales people. My offer is going to be the same.
If you want to do the "give & take", just remember, your offer is going to be bumped. That means you have to sweeten the pot on your end. We don't allow that to happen. We're up front. Here's the offer. It's a one time affair.
What "book" are you referring to you when you get your 'trade-in wholesale" price??? KBB, NADA, Edmunds, What book????
For me if I get a low offer that is around net, net. Sure I try and bump him once but where I am located the next dealer is 8 miles away. ( same product ) And I know the other dealer will take the deal ot the dealer that is 12 miles away will take it also.
I would rather except the offer. ( which doesn't mean the customer left money on the table )Take the deal and move on. On something like that I am selling one more car. We might get a service customer out of it, I might get refferals out of it, and the important thing I am almost garuanteeed exellent CSI. If it is a rare color combination, maybe two out there equiped like that, etc , etc. Than that is a different story.
All these methods that are suggested work. The bobst way, the OTD way, even the Tbaxxon way will work if you are ready to buy a car. It is maybe one person a month that comes in now and doesn't have a clue of where they want to be for a budget. At least in my neiborhood the customer has all the power. Thats why in my school it is if you can treat them right you will get the deal. The fact is that some people will pay sticker and some people will pay less than a dealership and they still think the dealer is making thousands.
I maybe wrong but if everyone got incredibly low, low deals and dealerships couldn't survive that things would change and that might just happen one day but I can't predict the future.
I will type this slowly so you will understand it...
Please see posts nos. 3522 & 3537.
Thanks for the good wishes, Micro.
By the way, happy Nagasaki Day.
Was that supposed to be offensive or sarcasstic?
I couldn't tell.
Just curious, how long after you walked did they accept? Once you walk, is there a time limit after which you give up waiting and go on to the next dealer?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I've asked this before: What is the point of having a moderated discussion if terms like "Stealer" are tolerated. Used to be, that kind of language was out. It offends me, and I'm not even in the business.
I would respectfully suggest getting rid of those posts, and perhaps of the poster(s) while we're at it.
I'll expect the usual "please use email for complaints", but right now I feel like making a public complaint, so that's what I'm doing.
Take care,
-Mathias
Actually, we're not moderators; we're hosts.
Generally, terms like that are not used here. We try to keep the Forums amicable and respectful although an occasional member shows up on a mission to slur and denigrate an entire group of people.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper