First, I'd recommend you google what I'm about to tell you, but I'm pretty sure. I was listening to an automotive show and they mentioned something about that. I'm in Georgia, where we don't have that law. However, California has some of the strictest laws in place for car buying. One of the laws instituted was on used vehicles. I don't think it applies to new. The dealer can impliment any policy they like though. There will always be stipulations though, so check the fine print.
There's a poster here named Isellhondas who used to sell in California. He has mentioned certain areas there that were not a very pleasant place to purchase for the consumer. Just be aware.
Private sellers? I don't know of anything in effect for that. Again, try and google to get some good information on that. I'm sure you'll be able to come up with something.
Yesterday I received two Emails from Hyundai dealers (one in Florida and one in NJ) and they both stated that they are now selling "ALL" their Hyundais (all models) for $350.00 "UNDER INVOICE". Is their some sort of dealer support?, as there is already a $1500.00 rebate and another $500.00 off if you finance thru Hyundai??? It seems to me that this advertisement means you can purchase for $350.00 UNDER INVOICE besides thew extra $200.00 off.!!! I recently called a Hyundai internet salesperson in Maryland and he told me that their advertised internet price (which was in fact $2000.00 UNDER INVOICE) was indeed the price.This was before the Extra $350.00 was announced yesterday. Any responses would be appreciated. NORTSR
nort....while this was a while ago, I bought my son an Elantra. I was quite surprised when they accepted my offer of $300 under invoice and I got to keep all the incentives they were offering at the time.
That tells me there may be inventives that are offered by Hyundai corporate perhaps to individual regions or dealers, that aren't accounted for by pricing services such as Edmunds or KBB.
I've shopped a few Hyundai dealers here in Michigan and the pricing i've ran into was much higher than other states i've seen people getting in the western states, it must be region specfic on incentives just like in Texas i believe they have some sort of special balloon financing or incentives which isn't offered in other areas.
tb....most of my post was trying to help mypoint to focus on what it is she wants. Best I can tell, she's struggling a bit on whether she really wants/needs a car. Truthfully, it sounds like she's one of the lucky few that really doesn't need a car...at least not right now. If I were in her shoes, I'd forgo, as long as possible, buying a car. It's a depreciating asset. Strictly from a financial perspective, as you've pointed out, you can't consider it an investment. It's a convenience....a very expensive one, at that.
No one is putting a gun to anyone's head, telling them they must buy a car, an extended warranty, etching, etc. Personally, I don't see the value in any of the dealer "add-ons", either. Apparently, you feel the same way. That doesn't mean someone else feels the way you do, or I do. Manufacturers and dealers sell extended warranties every day. Somebody, somewhere must see the value to buy them.
You're right....I don't have a clue. I'm not in the car business. I know I've either bought, or helped someone I know, buy dozens of them, however. From what you've said, you flip houses for a living. I'll assume you have to "convince" potential buyers that the house you're selling is worth the price you're asking. To me, that's selling. No matter what brush you try to paint with, that makes you a sales person.
What I do know is that no one is selling anything to anyone, until a buyer agrees to fork over the cash. You don't like the price of the car? Walk away. You don't like the way a dealership is treating you? Adios! You don't want an extended warranty? Just say no. It's really as simple as that. You control your checkbook, not the dealership.
Yes, there's money to be made...at your local grocery store, computer store, car store. There are salaries to be paid. Stockholders to answer to. Buisiness plans to be implemented. There are buyers and sellers, everywhere you look. Edmunds is selling advertising and markeitng services. They need to keep their content rich, to keep you and I coming back to view that advertising...and to sell their services.
As far as firing people? That's the worst part of my job. But, it is indeed part of it. I hate it. I've had to let sales people go that are some of the nicest people you'll find. Some of the nicest people I know are also some of the top sales producers, too. Some can do it. Some can't. Some need to decide whether sales is the right career for them. I manage technical support and marketing people, too. Sometimes I have to let one of them go. They didn't implement a marketing plan correctly, or on time. Or, our customers say that our tech support dept is woeful. But, in sales, there's one glaring category that supercedes every other category that they're evaluated on. That is, sales, revenue produced, quotas. They can be the greatest person in the world. If they aren't selling, they aren't doing their jobs in a satisfactory manner.
Just like when you sell houses...if you aren't making enough sales or margins, it isn't worthwhile financially. If you're a buyer, you don't see the value in the house at the price beign asked, you have to walk away from the deal.
while i think sales and margin are important, you have to have a customer-centricity, you have to add value, you have to establish a relationship.
if you don't, it would seem your profits are going to be front-loaded, and your customers are going to go elsewhere.
graphicguy, sometimes the corporate image, customer touch and feedback is communicated through the sales channel. sales has to listen as well as speak.
what i'm saying is, a good salesperson might be doing a VERY good job, even if not hitting numbers prepared by someone else.
geffen....used cars are a different animal than new cars. You don't know how much the dealer has invested in the used car. If you find one you like, look at KBB.com, or Edmunds to see what they think it's worth. I'd also peruse your local newspaper to see what similar cars are being advertised for.
Condition, mileage, etc all come into play on a used car. Is the car that has low mileage, but with a few dents and scrapes worth more than the same car with higher mileage, but is in pristine shape?
There's always room for negotialtion on a used car. If there's a car you really like, ask the seller what they're willing to sell for under asking price. IF they aren't in the ball park of what you're thinking, move on. See if they're willing to move even more once you make it clear you're ready to look elsewhere.
There are no hard and fast rules in buying a used car. There are quite a few variables that come into play. The only one I know of is there is whether your bottom line offer is willing to be accepted by the buyer.
user....good points. Customer satisfaction is always a part of the equation in assessing sales and support. I agree. It's important. But, in my business at least, when we have our yearly/quarterly planning sessions, I'm asked what revenue number, what margin amount, I'm willing to commit to. It may not seem to have any rhyme or reason, but in order to implement a business plan, those numbers must be hit. Or, everything else kind of falls apart.
If you're a public company, you see every quarter what happens to a stock's price if the revenue number you promise isn't met. It tumbles. That makes stock holder meetings an angry affair. In a private company, as most dealerships are, that new dealership expansion, or remodel, or service addition can't be done if the revenue and margin numbers aren't achieved.
We readjust the numbers, tweak them a little as circumstances dictate as the year/quarter evolves. But, if I don't feel I can do the numbers, with the people I've got, I won't commit to them. I also have to back that up with sound business reasoning when I decline a commitment. We readjust our thinking, our plans, at that point. But, there's still a number I must meet or exceed. I don't care of it's a revenue number, the number of techincal issues that are resolved, a series of marketing plans that are successfully implemented, or the number of customer complaints.
One things for certain, no business plans on contracting. They are planning to grow. If they aren't growing, they aren't very far from major catastrophe, as we've seen with some of the car companies.
It really is a juggling act as you look from the top down.
The reason I've kept my job, and been promoted, I hit or exceed my commitment, every year. Same with you. You've been rewarded...paid well, by hitting or exceeding your number. Part of that is because your customers return to buy, or have recommended others to buy from you. You keep your customers satisfied.
There seems to be plenty of price competition on Hyundais here in Ohio, geffen. Perhaps you should make a trip south.
As far as your other question about the negotiability of internet pricing: it seems as though this has changed some during this decade and moved more in that direction. I've bought several vehicles in this manner and always ask for the "best price" from the get-go. A couple of times I've gone back and forth as dealers compete for my business. Other times, their first quote is obviously at (or very near) rock bottom and is accepted.
Great points GraphicGuy. I would personally not want to live under such short term thinking and associated pressures. (One of the issues I have with American business models and the market, But also one of the concepts that allow one to buy great company's stock at low prices when quarterly numbers are missed.).
I guess the issue I have is in the car business that "pressure" rolls down hill and can easily invite deceit in order to "make the numbers" and feed the babies.Future considerations including developing a relationship with the customer comes second to the sale TODAY. Tomorrow be dammed.
Some car dealers treat their businesses like they are selling pianos. Once in a lifetime purchases
My "sales career" came by accident. I bought a home in San Diego and there came a huge real estate bubble. I saw the value of the house practically triple and with that an opportunity gain some tax free mad money. So we sold it. Rented for a couple years and when the market settled we bought a couple more renting them out. A few years later on a trip to Las Vegas we saw $80,000 homes one mile from the strip and saw the Mirage being built. If they began a size war in the hotels in Vegas we thought the area would explode because of the addition jobs and the fact that Vegas was in a Valley limiting home growth and the taxes we extremely low. We decided to sell out of San Diego with a smaller profit and buy three houses in Vegas under $120,000. We rented them out and bought another to live in in 2001 for $129,000. Two years ago the VEgas market exploded. Houses were selling in hours. Investors were flipping the same home three times in six months. We sold out, kept one rental. and searched for a n area on the east coast where NY ers may retire as an alternative to Florida and built a small home here.
I did not have to "sell" any of my homes. Just getting them listed was enough. I paid to have that done and did not hire a R/E agent. Did not need to. I did pay selling comissions of 2% take it or leave it. I sold my last in SIX HOURS and had two offers.
I am not a salesman at all,
Im would not want to deal with the pressures. But if I was to be hired to sell cars I would be the most honest customer centric salesman around. I fear I would not last a month in that regard.
Used cars are the single biggest profit source for car dealers.
The mark-up from what they purchased the car for to how much they "list" it for can be tremendous. Buying a used car from a dealer where your haggling skills will be most critical.
I agree and have a peek at the spread between trade in and retail on Toyotas. They have great RESALE value. Not as good trade in. But I believe like Honda many people can easily sell them privately. I have not seem many used late model Civics on car lots.
Used cars are the single biggest profit source for car dealers.
No, the service department is the biggest profit center at a dealership.
The mark-up from what they purchased the car for to how much they "list" it for can be tremendous.
It can be but don't always assume that. Sometimes we will list a car for sale at just a little bit above wholesale in order to move it quickly. Sometimes we do that if it is a seasonal car, mainly convertibles, and that season is ending soon so we need to unload it quickly. Other times we do it for current model year cars we have as used vehicles. A car like that is depreciating rapidly and if it is towards the end of a model year new car incentives might come out dropping its value even more.
So if you see a car that is priced a few thousand below most other similar cars in the area don't just assume there is still thousands of dollars for the dealer to discount. This happens every once in a while when I have someone who doesn't know what a good deal is. They figure I have 3,000 dollars of mark up in every used car on the lot and I just don't. I have that much mark up in some of them and with some very expensive used cars I might have even more then 3,000 dollars. In some cars though I only have a few hundred or a 1,000 dollars and on those cars I am going to hold firm on my list price.
Of course it matters! You are allowing what should be a totally separate transaction to affect your sale price. I suppose if bragging rights about how low of a price you paid is all that really matters - then the fact that you may have actually subsidized said price with your own money (vis-a-vis the decreased trade-in) is not important to you.
By the same token, one must decide what's driving the purchase decision. The purchase price or the monthly payment? More often than not, if you fall into the trap of using payments as part of your negotiating tool - you will "lose." Why do you think so many companies market their lease programs so heavily? Notice how big a deal those ads make of the monthly payment? It's the lure of low payments that gets people to the lot.
Finally... yes, of course someone, somewhere will always manage to find a better deal. "I got my new car for $20,000 otd!" "Oh yeah? I got the exact same one for $19,999 otd!" The math says it's a $1 savings. Technically it is a better deal, but how much more work did it take to save that dollar? And of course someone might brag about a huge discount - thousands under invoice!!!! (of course they might have gotten a lousy deal on their trade-in and then..... hmmmmm. ) :P
The fact remains that a huge number of people are extremely uncomfortable trying to negotiate with dealers. My intent was to offer whatever insight I could offer to make the process as easy and painless as possible. I'm pretty sure most people don't begrudge dealers making a profit, they just don't want to be ripped off in the process.
I've purchased three vehicles this way: VW Jetta for invoice, Chevy Silverado for 300 over, and Mazda for 300 over. I have heard of slightly better deals made by other people on the Mazda & VW - but no one touched the truck price... that I've heard of! lol In each case the total amount of time I spent at th dealership, from the first time I stepped foot on the lot to the moment I drove off in the new car, never exceeded 2 hours. That includes docs and everything. What's your time worth?
BTW - my best friend of 30 years has worked within the retail auto industry for about 20 years - 1st as a salesperson, then as a dealer finance manager, then corporate finance dept. (NMAC - for Nissan/Infinity) and now with a national 3rd party automotive finance company. He is the one who has quite literally schooled me on all this.
tb....a bit off topic...I liked the Vegas housing market about 10 years ago. Thought about jumping into it, myself. You saw what that market was going to do well before that. I thought pretty serious about investing in it. Unfortunately, my "then" wife wanted no part of the dessert. I believed it was imperative to live in the market you would be buying and selling in...at least initially. Now the market, across the country has cooled dramatically since then. You got in, and got out, at the right time.
I've got a friend who bought a house in the San Fracisco Bay area a little over a year ago. Paid ~$800,000. It is a teeny-tiny house on a postage stamp size lot. His investment is depreciating and he's way "upside-down" (kind of like what I hear from some people here trying to trade a car). That's one of the only times I've ever heard of real estate depreciating. As such, he really can't make a move...and probably can't for a long while. He worries about how tight his money is, all the time. Not a good way to live. He's one missed paycheck away from being foreclosed on.
That said, that offers business opportunities for someone to swoop down and buy property in California at a reduced price (expecially, from where it was a couple of years ago).
I've thought about trying my hand in car sales, part-time...2-3 days a week...9-5...no weekends when I retire. I doubt that job exists, though.
Listening to some of the car sales people here, they're judged weekly and monthly. I probably wouldn't last long, either. I think I'd probably tell the sales manager to "go pound sand" the first time they would try to pressure me. I'd also want to do my own deals. Tell me what you've got in the vehicle. Tell me what margin you have to hit. I'll take it from there. I agree. I wouldn't last a week.
I don't think some of those sales meetings (if one is to believe what they see of those meetings on "King of Cars") would be something I'd have little more to do with than to laugh.
So, probably car sales wouldn't be a career I could do.
The difference, as in OTD difference between the new car and the tradein value, is what matters and that is all that matters.
I believe Terry said it best (we all miss him), the only difference that makes a difference is the difference, i.e. I'll buy your sludge mobile for my trade-in plus $10k plus TTL.
I don't think some of those sales meetings (if one is to believe what they see of those meetings on "King of Cars") would be something I'd have little more to do with than to laugh.
Yeah you should LIVE in the market. Your friend in SF will be okay. I could not play in the $800K market. Yikes. Cali had a terrible bubble burst I think it was in the 80's People were walking mortgages. Foreclosures were a deal but I can not buy a foreclosure in good conscience. That's someone HOME!!! The market recovered though. It always does. I too would love to sell cars part time and change the way its done. No way could I or would I want to spend 12 hours a day there.
I wonder why Dealers don't consider PT older sales people who aren't hungry. LOL Never mind I just answered my own question.
believe Terry said it best (we all miss him), the only difference that makes a difference is the difference, i.e. I'll buy your sludge mobile for my trade-in plus $10k plus TTL.
I went to Towbins while I lived in Vegas. Its a friggin circus there. They are the epitome of what many people believe is the culture of Dealerships. They are very high pressure and most of what you see in the showroom are young couples many of who probably cannot qualify for the best rates, They appeal to those who really ought not be buying a new car. The used prices are not that bad but the cars may be suspect.
I invite anyone who lives in Vegas to "shop" that place.
It doesn't matter at all. What matters is how much plus your trade in is. Thats the bottom line. suppose on the exact same transaction you paid $20K for the new car and got $10K as a trade in I paid $15K and got $5K and some one else paid $25K and got $15K for their trade in. Who got the better deal? No one did we all paid $10K plus our trade in.
I suppose if bragging rights about how low of a price you paid
Again it doesn't matter what matters is the spread. If mt trade in plus $X is a good deal I don't give a rats [censored] how the numbers work out as the bottom line will always be the same.
Caveat most states charge sales tax on the difference between the trade in and the new car if your state doesn't then its a slightly different ball game.
More often than not, if you fall into the trap of using payments as part of your negotiating tool - you will "lose."
Sorry I will have to disagree with you. As I said there are basically four things that will affect what your payments are (price of the car, down payment, interest rate and length of the loan). Increasing two of them will bring down your payment (down payment and length of the loan) while decreasing two of them (Interest rate and price of the car) will also decrease your payments. If you stand firm and do not allow an increase in the down payment or length of the loan then the only way they can bring down the payment is to either get a better interest rate of bring down the price. If they do that you "win" not lose.
It works this way, as an educated consumer I will know what the OTD price that I want to get and what my down payment will be and what interest rate I can get. Using that I can compute that my payments for a 48 month loan would be a set amount. When the dealership come up with a monthly payment that is above my figure simply reject it. when they come back with a lower number fist thing to check is what is the down payment and the term of the loan, if either one has increased reject it (in this example leases are basically an increase in the term of the loan). If any attempt to increase the down payment or loans term is rejected the dealership can only work on the price. If they don't want to do that then no deal. Its pretty simple and you won't fall into any trap.
Finally... yes, of course someone, somewhere will always manage to find a better deal.
Sorry no there will always be a limit on how low the price of a car will go. Sooner or later you will get a price that no one will even touch. Plus you have to apply the law of diminishing returns, every time you get a better price its going to be much harder to beat that price. Not sure about you but I am not spending $500 of my time to save $50.
The fact remains that a huge number of people are extremely uncomfortable trying to negotiate with dealers.
Most people are simply because they make it difficult themselves. If people educate themselves on what the prices and values are and go in non combative car buying is rather simple. We are not talking rocket surgery here. A lot of what you said is one of the reasons why people feel uncomfortable. We are talking about buying a car not negotiating SALT. Keep it simple and don't over complicate things.
What's your time worth?
Last time I bought a car it was delivered to my door with the paperwork ready to sign. Never set foot in the dealership. I was offered a price and it took me about a half second to say yes, but this was a special case.
Time before that I spent 10 maybe 15 minutes negotiating and even then I got it for less than I expected.
BTW - my best friend of 30 years has worked within the retail auto industry for about 20 years
Good I don't know how many people I know who work in an industry that haven't a clue as to whats going on beyond their nose. Do you have any direct experience in this area? I do.
BTW I am a CPA and I make good money analyzing financial transactions and recommending courses of action.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think it is a very good idea to work a payment. I disclose all numbers upfront ( not a 4 square ) where nyou see my MSRP minus diiscount, minus trade, minus rebate, add taxes and fees you get a number. I use a average rate and you get a payment and a term.
There has been plenty of times I do it the way the customer wants not using a payment and in the end they are still out of their budget because they don't want to discuss it. In other words i'll have someone say I want the price differance to be $20,000 OK , they agree now we have a deal evryone shakes hands. Then I show them what the payment is. Lets say it is $409/mo. The customer freaks out because they have a budget of $300. After all that work to find out they are on the wrong car. Some people you just can't reach?
Clearly that's a situation where the customer did NOT do their research. I never advocated not knowing what the options were in terms of prices, fees, finance rates, etc. In fact, my whole premise was that one should do as much research as is possible and thus elminate any of the guesswork. It's quite easy to figure out the various paymet scenarios to within $5 of the actual monthly payment.
I'm going to have to call Clint Eastwood in if we don't get back to topic real soon! Now I know you're asking yourself, did the host fire six shots or only five ...?
Let me see if I get this... If mt trade in plus $X is a good deal I don't give a rats [censored] how the numbers work out as the bottom line will always be the same.
Based on this logic - you'd be happy paying more for the new car if you had no trade-in? But with the trade-in you don't mind paying for your own discount? Talk about complicated! This is no deal at all. Who is really in control here? Get your best price, then if they also wont give you what you think is fair on the trade-in... sell it yourself and make even more money while saving that buyer money.
Please pay attention next time: four things that will affect what your payments are (price of the car, down payment, interest rate and length of the loan).
The down payment does not have anything to do with the purchase price. Once again - establish purchase price first - you can then adjust payments via down payment, interest, terms, etc.
Seems we agree on this... at least partially Not sure about you but I am not spending $500 of my time to save $50.
As I said... What's your time worth? I'm with you about not spending a bunch of valuable time to save a fraction of what said time is worth. As for the "price that no one will touch" I seriously doubt anyone can know for certain that they have the absolute best price in the universe on their particular car. My point is not to be so obsessed with getting that best-in-universe deal. You won't get it. So on this aspect... from a personal sanity stand-point, you're better off not being so hyper-concerned about it.
As for negotiating for 10 or 15 minutes... not too bad. But I spent maybe 60 seconds "negotiating" on two of my purchases - and maybe 3 minutes on the third.(the extra 2 minutes was due to the haggling in which I agreed to raise my offer by $100.) In each case I already knew they had the car I wanted. I told the 1st salesperson I spoke to what I wanted and what I'm willing to pay. Lo & behold.. it worked! Zero hassle in very large large part because it was a very quick and easy sale. What's salespersons time worth?
I fail to see how this complicates anything. The time I spent on the lot involved mostly completing the docs, credit app, insurance info, etc. My most recent purhase was completely "negotiated" on the phone. (60 secs) They actually picked me up and brought me to their dealership on a Saturday morning 40 minutes before they were even open for that day.
Again, I fail to see how this complicates anything.
And finally... did you insult my friend? Or just those who work in finance in general?
Good I don't know how many people I know who work in an industry that haven't a clue as to whats going on beyond their nose. Do you have any direct experience in this area? I do.
He's one of those natural born salespeople. Loves the "art" of the deal. As his Brooklyn-born Jewish mother would say - "He could sell ice to the Eskimos." And he's certainly no slouch in the world of financial number-crunching. As for me... no, I have never worked in the car industry and cringed at the thought of having to haggle over a car. Perhaps that's the difference between and number-loving CPA like you and a simple working schmoe like me. I want quick & easy, without being ripped off. I have sucessfully used this "method" with three completely different dealers on three totally different vehicles. It is not at all complicated. I don't know how it can be any easier. Unless you have enough money that price is not a concern. (hmmmm... so, how much a does a CPA earn these days?) :P
A reporter is looking to interview consumers now in the market for a new car, as well as consumers who would love to buy a new car but are not in the market yet. For those on the fence, why have you decided to wait and what would it take for you to start actively shopping for a new set of wheels?
Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com before August 8 with your daytime contact information and a few words about your decision.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
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I've seen a number of times on these forums, where the hosts are asking for people to talk w/reporters. Do you ever post the results of those interviews or articles anywhere? Who are all these reporters, and where are they writing?
You know, I wish we would get more feedback on these stories. Sometimes the reporters we help are kind enough to give us links when the stories come out, and others don't - so it's tough to keep track unless we just keep checking the pubs daily... and you're right, we do get a lot of requests.
We get requests from all over the place - Newsweek, NYT, Detroit Free Press, WSJ, Smart Money, Chicago Tribune, Business Week, local-market newspapers & TV - just about anywhere you might see a story about consumer behaviors as they relate to auto ownership & purchasing. Just something to keep in mind if you ever wonder if anyone cares about what's going on in the Forums and what our members think.
If you want to make a suggestion that our communications team post the results of these interviews, the best way to do that is by using the "help" link at the bottom of this page and submit your request. I can tell you that me asking one more time isn't going to do it
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Having talked to a couple of reporters (through Edmunds), you would be surprised how unaware the press is of the Edmunds forums (or the website in general). It is pretty depressing actually.
I think that may be due to the fact that at least some of them may or may not be automotive gurus. They don't have to be to write a story, just need enough background about subject.
Correct - you get someone who's a writer covering the money & finance industry who just happens to be doing a story about the ways people finance vehicles. It may be rare that they focus on autos.
However, somehow, someone at their office knows we exist, else we'd never get the requests.
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"the extra 2 minutes was due to the haggling in which I agreed to raise my offer by $100"
Zant, if you had gotten up and walked out, they would have accepted your original offer and you would have saved $100.
It would have taken about 5 extra minutes, so your savings would be at the rate of $1200 per hour, or about $2,400,000 per year if you work an average of 40 hours per week.
oh my gosh... you mean if I had waited long enough they would have actually paid me to take the car off their hands! Where were you when I needed you? :P
Actually zante, bobst and I have always maintained that you know the price you're going to pay before you walk into the dealership. Do your research. Make your offer. The dealer either accepts it, in which case you just bought a car. Or, they reject it, at which time you get up and leave.
I've long maintained that as long as you're sitting at the negotiation table, you're being bumped. In your case, $100. Moreover, you really don't know exactly what the final price of your purchase will be by getting into a negotiation session at the dealership.
you get someone who's a writer covering the money & finance industry who just happens to be doing a story about the ways people finance vehicles. It may be rare that they focus on autos.
I can't speak for the car people. However, a lot of the large city newspaper travel people report as news items that are 6-8 months old as "news".
This particiular $100 "bump" was for the "over the phone" purchase of a car which I had been searching for. In fact, it was one of only three of the model year I wanted in all of California that also had the exact color and tranny combo I wanted. . And it was the ONLY one that also didn't have certain options that I did not want under any circumstances.
Based on this logic - you'd be happy paying more for the new car if you had no trade-in?
How do you come to that conclusion using logic? :confuse:
But with the trade-in you don't mind paying for your own discount? Talk about complicated! This is no deal at all.
Gee I will type this slowly so you can understand it. If the deal is $X plus your trade in then it doesn't matter how the numbers work out. Getting the car for $25K and getting $10K for your trade in is the exact same thing as getting the car for $20K and getting $5K for your trade in, or getting the car for $15K and nothing for your trade in. There is no difference.
The down payment does not have anything to do with the purchase price.
And I never said it did so please don't put your words in my mouth I find them distasteful.
It does however affect the loan amount and your payments.
Once again - establish purchase price first - you can then adjust payments via down payment, interest, terms, etc.
A couple of things here. First off is that the price drives the monthly payment, the price is a function of the monthly payment. Secondly never adjust payments via the down payment or the term. If you do you will end up with the short end of the stick.
I seriously doubt anyone can know for certain that they have the absolute best price in the universe on their particular car.
Thats why you do your research and figure out what is a good price and what you want to pay.
But I spent maybe 60 seconds "negotiating" on two of my purchases
Virtually impossible unless someone offered and that offer was accepted right off the bat.
I fail to see how this complicates anything.
I would expect that since you are promoting this.
And finally... did you insult my friend? Or just those who work in finance in general?
Neither just stating that just because someone works in an industry doesn't mean they are knowledgeable about it. This is especially true if they specialize in a particular aspect of that industry.
As his Brooklyn-born Jewish mother would say - "He could sell ice to the Eskimos.
My personal experience is that anyone who boasts that they can sell ice to eskimos usually would have trouble selling ice in hades. FWIW when I was a sales manager using a phrase like that during an interview would automatically disqualify you from the job.
Interesting story, my first sales job I was taking to another salesman and he made the comment that he could sell air conditioner to eskimos just as the sales manager walked in. Without missing a beat the sales manager suggested that he try it since he wasn't doing to good selling medical equipment to labs and hospitals.
It is not at all complicated.
no its not but you are trying to make it such.
hmmmm... so, how much a does a CPA earn these days?
Depends on experience field of work and expertise. A real good tax accountant is worth his (or hers) weight in gold.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Comments
First, I'd recommend you google what I'm about to tell you, but I'm pretty sure. I was listening to an automotive show and they mentioned something about that. I'm in Georgia, where we don't have that law. However, California has some of the strictest laws in place for car buying. One of the laws instituted was on used vehicles. I don't think it applies to new. The dealer can impliment any policy they like though. There will always be stipulations though, so check the fine print.
There's a poster here named Isellhondas who used to sell in California. He has mentioned certain areas there that were not a very pleasant place to purchase for the consumer. Just be aware.
Private sellers? I don't know of anything in effect for that. Again, try and google to get some good information on that. I'm sure you'll be able to come up with something.
Good luck!
-Madmanmoo
"UNDER INVOICE". Is their some sort of dealer support?, as there is already a $1500.00 rebate and another $500.00 off if you finance thru Hyundai??? It seems to me that this advertisement means you can purchase for $350.00 UNDER INVOICE besides thew extra $200.00 off.!!!
I recently called a Hyundai internet salesperson in Maryland and he told me that their advertised internet price (which was in fact $2000.00 UNDER INVOICE) was indeed the price.This was before the Extra $350.00 was announced yesterday.
Any responses would be appreciated.
NORTSR
That tells me there may be inventives that are offered by Hyundai corporate perhaps to individual regions or dealers, that aren't accounted for by pricing services such as Edmunds or KBB.
No one is putting a gun to anyone's head, telling them they must buy a car, an extended warranty, etching, etc. Personally, I don't see the value in any of the dealer "add-ons", either. Apparently, you feel the same way. That doesn't mean someone else feels the way you do, or I do. Manufacturers and dealers sell extended warranties every day. Somebody, somewhere must see the value to buy them.
You're right....I don't have a clue. I'm not in the car business. I know I've either bought, or helped someone I know, buy dozens of them, however. From what you've said, you flip houses for a living. I'll assume you have to "convince" potential buyers that the house you're selling is worth the price you're asking. To me, that's selling. No matter what brush you try to paint with, that makes you a sales person.
What I do know is that no one is selling anything to anyone, until a buyer agrees to fork over the cash. You don't like the price of the car? Walk away. You don't like the way a dealership is treating you? Adios! You don't want an extended warranty? Just say no. It's really as simple as that. You control your checkbook, not the dealership.
Yes, there's money to be made...at your local grocery store, computer store, car store. There are salaries to be paid. Stockholders to answer to. Buisiness plans to be implemented. There are buyers and sellers, everywhere you look. Edmunds is selling advertising and markeitng services. They need to keep their content rich, to keep you and I coming back to view that advertising...and to sell their services.
As far as firing people? That's the worst part of my job. But, it is indeed part of it. I hate it. I've had to let sales people go that are some of the nicest people you'll find. Some of the nicest people I know are also some of the top sales producers, too. Some can do it. Some can't. Some need to decide whether sales is the right career for them. I manage technical support and marketing people, too. Sometimes I have to let one of them go. They didn't implement a marketing plan correctly, or on time. Or, our customers say that our tech support dept is woeful. But, in sales, there's one glaring category that supercedes every other category that they're evaluated on. That is, sales, revenue produced, quotas. They can be the greatest person in the world. If they aren't selling, they aren't doing their jobs in a satisfactory manner.
Just like when you sell houses...if you aren't making enough sales or margins, it isn't worthwhile financially. If you're a buyer, you don't see the value in the house at the price beign asked, you have to walk away from the deal.
I suspect the same is true in the car biz.
if you don't, it would seem your profits are going to be front-loaded, and your customers are going to go elsewhere.
graphicguy, sometimes the corporate image, customer touch and feedback is communicated through the sales channel. sales has to listen as well as speak.
what i'm saying is, a good salesperson might be doing a VERY good job, even if not hitting numbers prepared by someone else.
Condition, mileage, etc all come into play on a used car. Is the car that has low mileage, but with a few dents and scrapes worth more than the same car with higher mileage, but is in pristine shape?
There's always room for negotialtion on a used car. If there's a car you really like, ask the seller what they're willing to sell for under asking price. IF they aren't in the ball park of what you're thinking, move on. See if they're willing to move even more once you make it clear you're ready to look elsewhere.
There are no hard and fast rules in buying a used car. There are quite a few variables that come into play. The only one I know of is there is whether your bottom line offer is willing to be accepted by the buyer.
If you're a public company, you see every quarter what happens to a stock's price if the revenue number you promise isn't met. It tumbles. That makes stock holder meetings an angry affair. In a private company, as most dealerships are, that new dealership expansion, or remodel, or service addition can't be done if the revenue and margin numbers aren't achieved.
We readjust the numbers, tweak them a little as circumstances dictate as the year/quarter evolves. But, if I don't feel I can do the numbers, with the people I've got, I won't commit to them. I also have to back that up with sound business reasoning when I decline a commitment. We readjust our thinking, our plans, at that point. But, there's still a number I must meet or exceed. I don't care of it's a revenue number, the number of techincal issues that are resolved, a series of marketing plans that are successfully implemented, or the number of customer complaints.
One things for certain, no business plans on contracting. They are planning to grow. If they aren't growing, they aren't very far from major catastrophe, as we've seen with some of the car companies.
It really is a juggling act as you look from the top down.
The reason I've kept my job, and been promoted, I hit or exceed my commitment, every year. Same with you. You've been rewarded...paid well, by hitting or exceeding your number. Part of that is because your customers return to buy, or have recommended others to buy from you. You keep your customers satisfied.
As far as your other question about the negotiability of internet pricing: it seems as though this has changed some during this decade and moved more in that direction. I've bought several vehicles in this manner and always ask for the "best price" from the get-go. A couple of times I've gone back and forth as dealers compete for my business. Other times, their first quote is obviously at (or very near) rock bottom and is accepted.
I guess the issue I have is in the car business that "pressure" rolls down hill and can easily invite deceit in order to "make the numbers" and feed the babies.Future considerations including developing a relationship with the customer comes second to the sale TODAY. Tomorrow be dammed.
Some car dealers treat their businesses like they are selling pianos. Once in a lifetime purchases
My "sales career" came by accident. I bought a home in San Diego and there came a huge real estate bubble. I saw the value of the house practically triple and with that an opportunity gain some tax free mad money. So we sold it. Rented for a couple years and when the market settled we bought a couple more renting them out. A few years later on a trip to Las Vegas we saw $80,000 homes one mile from the strip and saw the Mirage being built. If they began a size war in the hotels in Vegas we thought the area would explode because of the addition jobs and the fact that Vegas was in a Valley limiting home growth and the taxes we extremely low. We decided to sell out of San Diego with a smaller profit and buy three houses in Vegas under $120,000. We rented them out and bought another to live in in 2001 for $129,000. Two years ago the VEgas market exploded. Houses were selling in hours. Investors were flipping the same home three times in six months. We sold out, kept one rental. and searched for a n area on the east coast where NY ers may retire as an alternative to Florida and built a small home here.
I did not have to "sell" any of my homes. Just getting them listed was enough. I paid to have that done and did not hire a R/E agent. Did not need to. I did pay selling comissions of 2% take it or leave it. I sold my last in SIX HOURS and had two offers.
I am not a salesman at all,
Im would not want to deal with the pressures. But if I was to be hired to sell cars I would be the most honest customer centric salesman around. I fear I would not last a month in that regard.
The mark-up from what they purchased the car for to how much they "list" it for can be tremendous. Buying a used car from a dealer where your haggling skills will be most critical.
No, the service department is the biggest profit center at a dealership.
The mark-up from what they purchased the car for to how much they "list" it for can be tremendous.
It can be but don't always assume that. Sometimes we will list a car for sale at just a little bit above wholesale in order to move it quickly. Sometimes we do that if it is a seasonal car, mainly convertibles, and that season is ending soon so we need to unload it quickly. Other times we do it for current model year cars we have as used vehicles. A car like that is depreciating rapidly and if it is towards the end of a model year new car incentives might come out dropping its value even more.
So if you see a car that is priced a few thousand below most other similar cars in the area don't just assume there is still thousands of dollars for the dealer to discount. This happens every once in a while when I have someone who doesn't know what a good deal is. They figure I have 3,000 dollars of mark up in every used car on the lot and I just don't. I have that much mark up in some of them and with some very expensive used cars I might have even more then 3,000 dollars. In some cars though I only have a few hundred or a 1,000 dollars and on those cars I am going to hold firm on my list price.
By the same token, one must decide what's driving the purchase decision. The purchase price or the monthly payment? More often than not, if you fall into the trap of using payments as part of your negotiating tool - you will "lose." Why do you think so many companies market their lease programs so heavily? Notice how big a deal those ads make of the monthly payment? It's the lure of low payments that gets people to the lot.
Finally... yes, of course someone, somewhere will always manage to find a better deal. "I got my new car for $20,000 otd!" "Oh yeah? I got the exact same one for $19,999 otd!" The math says it's a $1 savings. Technically it is a better deal, but how much more work did it take to save that dollar? And of course someone might brag about a huge discount - thousands under invoice!!!! (of course they might have gotten a lousy deal on their trade-in and then..... hmmmmm. ) :P
The fact remains that a huge number of people are extremely uncomfortable trying to negotiate with dealers. My intent was to offer whatever insight I could offer to make the process as easy and painless as possible. I'm pretty sure most people don't begrudge dealers making a profit, they just don't want to be ripped off in the process.
I've purchased three vehicles this way: VW Jetta for invoice, Chevy Silverado for 300 over, and Mazda for 300 over. I have heard of slightly better deals made by other people on the Mazda & VW - but no one touched the truck price... that I've heard of! lol In each case the total amount of time I spent at th dealership, from the first time I stepped foot on the lot to the moment I drove off in the new car, never exceeded 2 hours. That includes docs and everything. What's your time worth?
BTW - my best friend of 30 years has worked within the retail auto industry for about 20 years - 1st as a salesperson, then as a dealer finance manager, then corporate finance dept. (NMAC - for Nissan/Infinity) and now with a national 3rd party automotive finance company. He is the one who has quite literally schooled me on all this.
Bottom line is.... the bottom line! :shades:
The difference, as in OTD difference between the new car and the tradein value, is what matters and that is all that matters.
I've got a friend who bought a house in the San Fracisco Bay area a little over a year ago. Paid ~$800,000. It is a teeny-tiny house on a postage stamp size lot. His investment is depreciating and he's way "upside-down" (kind of like what I hear from some people here trying to trade a car). That's one of the only times I've ever heard of real estate depreciating. As such, he really can't make a move...and probably can't for a long while. He worries about how tight his money is, all the time. Not a good way to live. He's one missed paycheck away from being foreclosed on.
That said, that offers business opportunities for someone to swoop down and buy property in California at a reduced price (expecially, from where it was a couple of years ago).
I've thought about trying my hand in car sales, part-time...2-3 days a week...9-5...no weekends when I retire. I doubt that job exists, though.
Listening to some of the car sales people here, they're judged weekly and monthly. I probably wouldn't last long, either. I think I'd probably tell the sales manager to "go pound sand" the first time they would try to pressure me. I'd also want to do my own deals. Tell me what you've got in the vehicle. Tell me what margin you have to hit. I'll take it from there. I agree. I wouldn't last a week.
I don't think some of those sales meetings (if one is to believe what they see of those meetings on "King of Cars") would be something I'd have little more to do with than to laugh.
So, probably car sales wouldn't be a career I could do.
I believe Terry said it best (we all miss him), the only difference that makes a difference is the difference, i.e. I'll buy your sludge mobile for my trade-in plus $10k plus TTL.
King of Cars makes me laugh to.
You could fill in for the Blue Genie when it's his day off.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I wonder why Dealers don't consider PT older sales people who aren't hungry. LOL Never mind I just answered my own question.
Eggxxacttllyyy
People just make it too complicated.
I invite anyone who lives in Vegas to "shop" that place.
It doesn't matter at all. What matters is how much plus your trade in is. Thats the bottom line. suppose on the exact same transaction you paid $20K for the new car and got $10K as a trade in I paid $15K and got $5K and some one else paid $25K and got $15K for their trade in. Who got the better deal? No one did we all paid $10K plus our trade in.
I suppose if bragging rights about how low of a price you paid
Again it doesn't matter what matters is the spread. If mt trade in plus $X is a good deal I don't give a rats [censored] how the numbers work out as the bottom line will always be the same.
Caveat most states charge sales tax on the difference between the trade in and the new car if your state doesn't then its a slightly different ball game.
More often than not, if you fall into the trap of using payments as part of your negotiating tool - you will "lose."
Sorry I will have to disagree with you. As I said there are basically four things that will affect what your payments are (price of the car, down payment, interest rate and length of the loan). Increasing two of them will bring down your payment (down payment and length of the loan) while decreasing two of them (Interest rate and price of the car) will also decrease your payments. If you stand firm and do not allow an increase in the down payment or length of the loan then the only way they can bring down the payment is to either get a better interest rate of bring down the price. If they do that you "win" not lose.
It works this way, as an educated consumer I will know what the OTD price that I want to get and what my down payment will be and what interest rate I can get. Using that I can compute that my payments for a 48 month loan would be a set amount. When the dealership come up with a monthly payment that is above my figure simply reject it. when they come back with a lower number fist thing to check is what is the down payment and the term of the loan, if either one has increased reject it (in this example leases are basically an increase in the term of the loan). If any attempt to increase the down payment or loans term is rejected the dealership can only work on the price. If they don't want to do that then no deal. Its pretty simple and you won't fall into any trap.
Finally... yes, of course someone, somewhere will always manage to find a better deal.
Sorry no there will always be a limit on how low the price of a car will go. Sooner or later you will get a price that no one will even touch. Plus you have to apply the law of diminishing returns, every time you get a better price its going to be much harder to beat that price. Not sure about you but I am not spending $500 of my time to save $50.
The fact remains that a huge number of people are extremely uncomfortable trying to negotiate with dealers.
Most people are simply because they make it difficult themselves. If people educate themselves on what the prices and values are and go in non combative car buying is rather simple. We are not talking rocket surgery here. A lot of what you said is one of the reasons why people feel uncomfortable. We are talking about buying a car not negotiating SALT. Keep it simple and don't over complicate things.
What's your time worth?
Last time I bought a car it was delivered to my door with the paperwork ready to sign. Never set foot in the dealership. I was offered a price and it took me about a half second to say yes, but this was a special case.
Time before that I spent 10 maybe 15 minutes negotiating and even then I got it for less than I expected.
BTW - my best friend of 30 years has worked within the retail auto industry for about 20 years
Good I don't know how many people I know who work in an industry that haven't a clue as to whats going on beyond their nose. Do you have any direct experience in this area? I do.
BTW I am a CPA and I make good money analyzing financial transactions and recommending courses of action.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There has been plenty of times I do it the way the customer wants not using a payment and in the end they are still out of their budget because they don't want to discuss it. In other words i'll have someone say I want the price differance to be $20,000 OK , they agree now we have a deal evryone shakes hands. Then I show them what the payment is. Lets say it is $409/mo. The customer freaks out because they have a budget of $300. After all that work to find out they are on the wrong car. Some people you just can't reach?
I don't like it anymore than they do.
-Moo
I don't like it anymore than they do.
-Moo
That's funny Moo.... That was thought I had in my head.
GNR Civil Wars.
Now I am trying to remember how that thing starts And all I can remember is Failure to comincate.
Failure to comincate
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thanks for helping though, Snake.
-Moo
Its an art form there is no best,
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
If mt trade in plus $X is a good deal I don't give a rats [censored] how the numbers work out as the bottom line will always be the same.
Based on this logic - you'd be happy paying more for the new car if you had no trade-in? But with the trade-in you don't mind paying for your own discount? Talk about complicated! This is no deal at all. Who is really in control here? Get your best price, then if they also wont give you what you think is fair on the trade-in... sell it yourself and make even more money while saving that buyer money.
Please pay attention next time:
four things that will affect what your payments are (price of the car, down payment, interest rate and length of the loan).
The down payment does not have anything to do with the purchase price. Once again - establish purchase price first - you can then adjust payments via down payment, interest, terms, etc.
Seems we agree on this... at least partially
Not sure about you but I am not spending $500 of my time to save $50.
As I said... What's your time worth? I'm with you about not spending a bunch of valuable time to save a fraction of what said time is worth. As for the "price that no one will touch"
I seriously doubt anyone can know for certain that they have the absolute best price in the universe on their particular car. My point is not to be so obsessed with getting that best-in-universe deal. You won't get it. So on this aspect... from a personal sanity stand-point, you're better off not being so hyper-concerned about it.
As for negotiating for 10 or 15 minutes... not too bad. But I spent maybe 60 seconds "negotiating" on two of my purchases - and maybe 3 minutes on the third.(the extra 2 minutes was due to the haggling in which I agreed to raise my offer by $100.) In each case I already knew they had the car I wanted. I told the 1st salesperson I spoke to what I wanted and what I'm willing to pay. Lo & behold.. it worked! Zero hassle in very large large part because it was a very quick and easy sale. What's salespersons time worth?
I fail to see how this complicates anything. The time I spent on the lot involved mostly completing the docs, credit app, insurance info, etc. My most recent purhase was completely "negotiated" on the phone. (60 secs) They actually picked me up and brought me to their dealership on a Saturday morning 40 minutes before they were even open for that day.
Again, I fail to see how this complicates anything.
And finally... did you insult my friend? Or just those who work in finance in general?
Good I don't know how many people I know who work in an industry that haven't a clue as to whats going on beyond their nose. Do you have any direct experience in this area? I do.
He's one of those natural born salespeople. Loves the "art" of the deal. As his Brooklyn-born Jewish mother would say - "He could sell ice to the Eskimos." And he's certainly no slouch in the world of financial number-crunching. As for me... no, I have never worked in the car industry and cringed at the thought of having to haggle over a car. Perhaps that's the difference between and number-loving CPA like you and a simple working schmoe like me. I want quick & easy, without being ripped off. I have sucessfully used this "method" with three completely different dealers on three totally different vehicles. It is not at all complicated. I don't know how it can be any easier. Unless you have enough money that price is not a concern. (hmmmm... so, how much a does a CPA earn these days?) :P
The host fired 6 shoots.
But he could have an automatic which will leave him one more.
Or he could have a fancy automatic and have more than that.
Or he could have two guns.
Or he could have reloaded.
Oh what the .......
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I told you. You get the best deal inside... LOL
Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com before August 8 with your daytime contact information and a few words about your decision.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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I even moved a lot of those posts over there to get ya started.
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I've seen a number of times on these forums, where the hosts are asking for people to talk w/reporters. Do you ever post the results of those interviews or articles anywhere? Who are all these reporters, and where are they writing?
We get requests from all over the place - Newsweek, NYT, Detroit Free Press, WSJ, Smart Money, Chicago Tribune, Business Week, local-market newspapers & TV - just about anywhere you might see a story about consumer behaviors as they relate to auto ownership & purchasing. Just something to keep in mind if you ever wonder if anyone cares about what's going on in the Forums and what our members think.
If you want to make a suggestion that our communications team post the results of these interviews, the best way to do that is by using the "help" link at the bottom of this page and submit your request. I can tell you that me asking one more time isn't going to do it
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However, somehow, someone at their office knows we exist, else we'd never get the requests.
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Zant, if you had gotten up and walked out, they would have accepted your original offer and you would have saved $100.
It would have taken about 5 extra minutes, so your savings would be at the rate of $1200 per hour, or about $2,400,000 per year if you work an average of 40 hours per week.
Somehow I think you've missed the point.
I've long maintained that as long as you're sitting at the negotiation table, you're being bumped. In your case, $100. Moreover, you really don't know exactly what the final price of your purchase will be by getting into a negotiation session at the dealership.
I can't speak for the car people. However, a lot of the large city newspaper travel people report as news items that are 6-8 months old as "news".
Perhaps I should also clarify this situation:
This particiular $100 "bump" was for the "over the phone" purchase of a car which I had been searching for. In fact, it was one of only three of the model year I wanted in all of California that also had the exact color and tranny combo I wanted. . And it was the ONLY one that also didn't have certain options that I did not want under any circumstances.
How do you come to that conclusion using logic? :confuse:
But with the trade-in you don't mind paying for your own discount? Talk about complicated! This is no deal at all.
Gee I will type this slowly so you can understand it. If the deal is $X plus your trade in then it doesn't matter how the numbers work out. Getting the car for $25K and getting $10K for your trade in is the exact same thing as getting the car for $20K and getting $5K for your trade in, or getting the car for $15K and nothing for your trade in. There is no difference.
The down payment does not have anything to do with the purchase price.
And I never said it did so please don't put your words in my mouth I find them distasteful.
It does however affect the loan amount and your payments.
Once again - establish purchase price first - you can then adjust payments via down payment, interest, terms, etc.
A couple of things here. First off is that the price drives the monthly payment, the price is a function of the monthly payment. Secondly never adjust payments via the down payment or the term. If you do you will end up with the short end of the stick.
I seriously doubt anyone can know for certain that they have the absolute best price in the universe on their particular car.
Thats why you do your research and figure out what is a good price and what you want to pay.
But I spent maybe 60 seconds "negotiating" on two of my purchases
Virtually impossible unless someone offered and that offer was accepted right off the bat.
I fail to see how this complicates anything.
I would expect that since you are promoting this.
And finally... did you insult my friend? Or just those who work in finance in general?
Neither just stating that just because someone works in an industry doesn't mean they are knowledgeable about it. This is especially true if they specialize in a particular aspect of that industry.
As his Brooklyn-born Jewish mother would say - "He could sell ice to the Eskimos.
My personal experience is that anyone who boasts that they can sell ice to eskimos usually would have trouble selling ice in hades. FWIW when I was a sales manager using a phrase like that during an interview would automatically disqualify you from the job.
Interesting story, my first sales job I was taking to another salesman and he made the comment that he could sell air conditioner to eskimos just as the sales manager walked in. Without missing a beat the sales manager suggested that he try it since he wasn't doing to good selling medical equipment to labs and hospitals.
It is not at all complicated.
no its not but you are trying to make it such.
hmmmm... so, how much a does a CPA earn these days?
Depends on experience field of work and expertise. A real good tax accountant is worth his (or hers) weight in gold.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D