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Nissan Titan vs. Dodge Ram Hemi
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For those of you who don't like ABS b/c of towing a trailer and driving on gravel, if you do the majority of your driving w/o a trailer and on paved roads I see no reason to not want ABS.
Yes, it may be true. But why does it make sense to equip yourself for that .1% chance where it may be detrimental and ignore the 99.9% chance of it being beneficial.
From the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety:
"4. Do car antilocks reduce crashes?
Although car antilocks perform well on the test track, there's no evidence they have made significant reductions in the number of on-the-road crashes. A 1994 Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) study and a subsequent 1995 study compare insurance claims for groups of otherwise identical cars with and without antilocks, finding no differences in the overall frequency or cost of crashes for which insurance claims for vehicle damage are filed. Because antilocks should make the most difference on wet and slippery roads, researchers also studied insurance claims experience in 29 northern states during winter months. Even here they found no difference in the frequency of insurance claims for vehicles with and without antilock brakes. A 1996 Institute study, as well as a 2000 update, reported no difference in the overall fatal crash involvement of cars with and without antilocks.
Federal studies of car antilocks are consistent with Institute and HLDI findings. According to one federal report, "the overall, net effect of antilock brakes" on both police-reported crashes and fatal crashes "was close to zero." The federal studies of effects of antilocks on passenger vehicle crashes found positive effects on wet roads and negative effects for run-off-road crashes. These two opposite results cancel each other. Leonard Evans, a researcher with General Motors, reported that antilock-equipped cars were less likely to rear-end other vehicles but more likely to have other vehicles rear-end them. Again, the net result was little effect on overall crash risk. In a study done for auto manufacturers, Failure Analysis Associates reported a net beneficial effect of antilocks on nonfatal crashes but no effect on fatal crashes."
http://www.hwysafety.org/safety%5Ffacts/qanda/antilock.htm
Dusty
I personally have known very few people who take the time to practice manuevers or emergency braking say on a Sunday morning in an empty parking lot. The moment of a possible impending collision is a little late to get in those counter steering or lane change under full braking drills....
A year ago I test drove the Tundra & Ram back to back with my girlfriend. Both vehicles broken in demo's. At 60mph slammed the brakes hard on the Tundra. Very fast stop under complete control with quick ABS pulsing & some slight tire chirping. The steering was still very responsive. An hour later in the Ram the salesman was bragging about 2 wheel ABS. At 60mph at same spot slammed on the brakes. To my surprise the right front wheel locked up. The Ram skidded a good 1-2 truck lengths past where the Tundra had stopped. Worse yet, there was no control. I turned the steering both directions, no response. We weren't impressed.
I didn't do a panic stop with the Titan. It was the first Titan in town many days before any other dealer. However I do feel more comfortable with 4 wheel ABS rather than 2 wheel ABS, and reviews on Titan's brakes seem to confirm my impressions.
dusty: You want 2 wheel ABS &/or you want it optional. We get it!
of course my car is non-ABS and it rarely snows here, but my brand new all season yokohamas did extremely well in the big february ice storm in dallas last winter, when my old tires wouldn't have gotten me out of the driveway. My advice to anyone who wants steering in the snow would be to lay some money down on all seasons if you live in the sunbelt like me, or buy winter tires if you don't.
ABS is not only highly dependent on driver experience, but also just as importantly on variables such as the brakes, tires, suspension, load conditions, and road conditions.
One crude example: A vehicle with adequate brakes and no ABS likely would stop shorter than the same vehicle with ABS but undersized brakes.
Besides the vehicle's variables, there is the ABS system itself. Most manufacturers have made many advances in ABS systems precision, and software programming. However with trucks, there is such a huge variance in combinations of payload,gvw,towing capacities, & on/off road 4x4 conditions; I think it's amazing they have come so far in such a shorter period.
I tried to point out before, no matter what vehicle we drive it's best to learn our vehicle's emergency handling/braking quirks in a practice setting before we need to rely on those skills in a split instant. That instant may be caused just as easily by nature as another vehicle.
ABS isnt meant to improve your handling of the jams. it is meant to get you out of the ones you havent dealt with yet. its also difficult to conceive the physics involved from the driver seat...so points of view that say "my foot is better than some computer" are simply ignorant in nature.
if you can cycle the brakes (pump on and off 1 time) every 2 seconds, and the ABS system can do it hundreds of times a minute, which is actually better? sounds more like fear of the unknown to me, which is exactly why i waited so long to use ABS.
Like Mr. Triat said, a non-ABS car with bigger brakes will likely stop faster than an ABS car w/ smaller brakes. Although the size of the brake rotors really only matters to reduce fade with rptd use and to reduce warpage, the clamping force of the calipers is what really helps you stop in a shorter distance.
Like triat said, there are other factors involved than just ABS. I would argue that the tires are more important than ABS,EBD, and VDC combined, b/c without the traction they give you, all those fancy acronyms don't matter.
something else people forget about is the quality of their suspension. A well maintained suspension is important in emergency maneuvers, because it will be easier to control.
I haven't said anything that most of ya'll didn't know already, but hopefully you'll find some food for thought.
gig em
thanks
But, it is hard to believe that any foreign truck can be a FULL SIZE truck. America was built on the wide deep beds of Chevy, Dodge, and Ford. Trucks that were built in the 50's and 60's that are still going strong today.
I am in the market for a new truck and so far the Dodge Hemi is the only truck with power and good looks that I have been impress with. I am going to go give that Titan a spin. Hope to be equally impressed.
Tony
Tony - Went out to buy a Ram.. Drove a Titan home...
One sticker caught my eye: 85% foreign parts!! I looked again closer, it was made in Mexico!! Looked at those stickers on the other 30 or so Suburbans. About 50-50 U.S.-Mexico split.
I agree with renegaded in that foreign is when the company is owned in other countries. But with "foreign" companies investing billions in plants,workers,parts etc in N.America - I think the N.America vs. "foreign" is a little less meaningful than say 25 years ago. In those days foreign companies made money off of N.America raw materials, then made more money off of us selling us the finished product(cars)!!
I'm still surprised about the Chevys...
didnt think so.
how about the toyota plant in KY?
or the honda plants in OH and AL?
or the hyundai plant being built in AL?
or the BMW, mercedes, mazda, isuzu,...
get he picture?
"foreign" auto manufacturers now employ more americans and put food on the table of more american families than "domestic" manufacturers.
im spending $20k+++! i want the best for my money! if i see statistics that show imports last longer than domestics, and hold their value better, thats where my money goes. buy that honda instead of the ford, and you can put the sake on YOUR table.
i just wish i had your money, though, because you are so willing to throw it away. wish i could do that.
And, I have to admit that the combination of 305 horsepower and 2.94:1 torque left a good impression. Whether it was better than the Hemi, I am not quite sure. I would rank them about equal in the get up and go column. The titan offers a lot of option that dodge does not offer and that sports car like suspension really handles great. If I was wanting a sports car/truck, this would be the truck for me. But, I am looking for an off road, tree stomp pulling, winter fire wood hauling, full 6 foot bed (in a crew cab), full size truck. That isn't a Titan. I was surprise that the Titan (at least at this time) did not come with an anti-spin or slip differential. I see in the Nissan documentation that there is an option for a TCS (Traction Control System), but the dealer stated that this was not available yet.
At least for now, I am still a Dodge fan.
As far as the American made statement. Your Right! There are no more American made cars. Maybe, American assemble! But, not American made. I had a Pontiac LeMans that had parts from 23 different countries. But, at least Chevy, Dodge and Ford has kept up with American's love for full size trucks. Nissan and Toyota are just now (after how many years of selling cars in the US) getting into the full size truck market. So, excuse me for having a little bit of loyalty for trucks that have already proven themselves. I rather wait till some of you people, who have ran out and bought the Titan, to work out the kinks. Then, maybe a couple of years from now, I will considerate.
Bob
If that meant negative, that's not the story around here. Dodge RAM resales at about what GMs do, a little more than Ford.
Besides, the resale topic has been discussed before. It's like the old saw about manual transmissions having less "resale" value. Yes, the return is less but so was the initial price.
Dusty
Guy ask if I put the large tires on and I said "no came with truck" Boy was he impressed. He had purchased his Dodge 6 months ago and said he wished he had waited. I was hoping he was looking for a race!
I will admit that that Dodge Crew in silver is one fine looking truck. He said he like the front end of the Titan after I said that it would be the one part of the truck I would change. My opinion may change with Grill guard.
The latest count of the local Used Truck Trader records 115 Chevies, 21 GMCs, 148 F150s, and 18 Dodge RAMs. Obviously the quantity of Chevies and Fords in this small geographical market mean dealers are realizing more price competition and are working to keep prices down for those vehicles.
This same situation is the reason why used Tundras realize a high resale value. There were only 8 in the same issue. I suspect it will be the same for the Titan.
Dusty
Thanks
Buying a car or truck in this instance is a lot of money but like my dad always said, "You'll always have a house or car payment might as well be happy with the one you choose".
Anyway... After I drove the Titan it was no longer about money. I had to have one.. Now I get the really cool looks from people like "What is that thing?" I have a very bad habit of punching it whenever someone in an F-150 or Ram pulls up and checks out my Titan.
Tony
Like autos, many lines have become blurred(largely a good thing), and "foreign" is becoming more rare.
Thanks Bowke!
I thought the Hemi was a great deal. I have around $23,000 including taxes in it with 20" wheels, and various other options, due to Farm Bureau and Dodge rebates. I assume a Titan comparably equipped would be more like $28,000. But to me, the F150, Chevrolet, and Tundra aren't even in the running anymore. F150 ( expensive, not updated enough, don't care for the look on the non-pricey models). Chevy (had one, they're out of date in most aspects now), Tundra (homely, also had one of those)
We're keeping it long term, so it doesn't matter, but any Truck is a relatively good reselling vehicle. So be sure to buy one you like and keep it, longevity is more important than brand. Quick sales are where you get burned.
;-)
I use to like Nissan. Now I'm being turned off.
it was meant in fun...if you took it personally, then the problem is yours...not mine.
Thanks and gig em
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Look's like Nissan Titan quality is worthless.