Toyota Highlander Hybrid

gazguzler

Based on owners the 2wd doesn't get better mileage but the 4wd does accelerate quicker. The 4wd isn't just for snow. It's not for offroad because there's no protection underneath and the 2 rear wheels are underpowered by a solo elec motor that would burn out in anything challenging.

wwest

If you have 4WD the rear elctric motor can be used primarily for regenerative braking thus avoiding the hazards of "braking" on the front wheels on a potentially slippery roadbed surface.

judi3

I just purchased my vehicle Sat. and it gets up to 60 in no time but when I go over 60 there seems to be a drag feeling like there is resistance,is this normal or is it the break in period?

katzjamr

Aside from the clearance that you mention it is the issue of the electric motors potentially burning out on heavy off road use that is the reason that makes off road off limits.

katzjamr

I use a synthetic blend not Mobil One, so i have no bias towards it however i have read in these forums that a full synthetic can help mpg up to 2 mpg.

cdptrap

This off-road topic is coming up more often now, so I will chime in :-). First to answer your question, 4WD gives 4 powered points of contact on slippery surface while 2WD has only 2 powere point of contact. So if one travels on slippery surfaces (mud, water, snow, ice, loose gravel), 4WD give higher margin of safety.

Now to off-road part of the question.

I believe cooling the rear motor and elevating the car, not the CVT, are the reasons why HH cannot take on real 4x4 tracks.

I no longer do off-roading for fun, others here have much more up to date info. From old farm- and ranch-work experience, there are in general 3 types of dirt tracks (off-road surfaces): (1) sedan-capable dirt roads, (2) higher-clearance vehicle dirt road and (3) 4x4 dirt tracks.

Type (1) is well maintained almost flat with gravels or without. Even a Prius, a minivan and even a motorbike (sometimes) can handle it easily.

Type (2) is not a well maintained road but it is a road and may have holes or ruts, humps, larger rocks, many softball size rocks, some basketball size, lots of portruding roads from surface. Could have loose gravel or rocky surface.

Type (3) is not maintained. Often just creek beds, desert wash, "ducks" marking where to go and make your own trail where allowed.

It is obvious that the 2WD and 4WD HH easily handles type (1). We do this practically every week driving up and down farm and ranch roads.

The 2WD HH can handle most of type (2) as well and with careful driving, the 4WD version can probably handle all of type (2). Greatest challenge for 2WD will be avoiding loose surface.

The 2WD HH cannot handle type (3). The 4WD HH may be able to handle very few of type (3) with extreme care and in perfect weather condition. I personally will not do it.

Is the CVT a limitation for driving type 3 surface ?
Probably not. Our experience with the HH shows it is actually very good at selecting the "perfect" gear for our needs, even at very low speed climbing up a steep grade with a heavy load.

Is the low clearance a problem for type 3 ?
Yes and in addition, the HH has no solid axles. We need solid axle to elevate the car when 1 side or 1 tire dips into deep rut else the car will "beach" along the centerline. If not solid axles, then the HH needs some other technology like active air suspension system (Mercedes, Land Rover) to elevate the car safely.

Is lack of center-lock diff a problem for type 3?
This came up a couple of posts back and my take on this is YES and NO. YES we need continuous power and torque to all 4 wheels. NO because with new technology, modern cars can easily apply power to all 4 wheels continuously via compueter control. A real center lock is unneccessary. The HH has neither.

The unmentioned problem is with Rear Electric Motor Cooling.
Continuous power means the front and rear electric motors must operate constantly when 4-wheeling. The front motor seems to have coolant for cooling but the rear relies on normal air flow during movement. That is the archilles heel of the HH. It cannot afford continuous power to the rear wheels because the motor will overheat and the on-board computer, I assume, will shut down the rear motor before that happens. That means I can no longer crawl along safely because at any time, I could lose power to the rear wheels due to overheating and my 4WD is suddenly a 2WD!

So I believe cooling the rear motor and elevating the car are the biggest challenges, not the CVT.

Toyota is working on a hybrid 2007 Tundra, I hope they solve this problem. I would love to have a real 4x4 that is hybrid.

jslate

I have always used synthetic oil (Mobil 1) in my vehicles (including a motorhome) but have been told by both my dealer and the independent shop where I have service done to use regular oil in the Hybrids, as Toyota has not yet blessed it for these vehicles, and it would void the warranty. I don't think I want to take the chance and challenge the warranty issue on this. I will change the oil every 3000 to 3500 miles, however.

Jim

larsb

quote Jim-"and it would void the warranty."-end quote

There are consumer laws that protect you for that situation, if it ever came to court, which because of other precedents it never would.

Car Makers cannot void warranties for using superior grades of oil, and courts across the land have ruled that Synthetic oil is superior to dino oil.

Using a Synthetic oil will not void any car's warranty.

jslate

Please don't shout WRONG at me. What I stated is the absolute truth. The dealer did say that it would void the waranty - whether true or not doesn't matter. My independant service shop did advise against synthetic oil for this vehicle, as Toyota hasn't approved it yet. The fact that I do not want to test this in court is also true. Therefore, there is nothing WRONG with what I stated as facts.

Jim

larsb

I don't use caps for "shouting" sorry for the misunderstanding on your part. Caps is for getting attention and for emphasis, just like speaking.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand. Here's some proof, since you failed to believe me the first time around (most people know me on this board and know that I don't post things without first researching them myself):

http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/carcare/whattoknow.asp

"Myth #3 Using synthetic motor oil will void a manufacturer's warranty.

Fact - As long as the synthetic product meets the viscosity and performance requirements outlined in the vehicle’s owner’s manual, using synthetic oil will not interfere with the warranty coverage. However, one exception would be the rotary (Wankel) engine used in certain Mazda vehicles, which recommend against the use of synthetic oil in that particular engine."

AND:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/Myths.aspx

Myth: Using Mobil 1 will void the warranty on my new car.

Reality: Mobil 1 with SuperSyn Technology will not void new car warranties, with the exception of the Mazda rotary engine (Mazda does not recommend any synthetic motor oil). Mobil 1 exceeds the API and ILSAC motor oil service requirements for all new vehicles, both import and domestic. If in doubt, always check your vehicle owner's manual or contact your vehicle's manufacturer.

Since most new car warranties call for shorter service intervals than those enabled by Mobil 1 Extended Performance, we recommmend you follow the recommendations in your owner's manual while your car is under warranty.

So Jim, while your service manager can say whatever he wants, he can be wrong and IS wrong if he says using Synthetic oil will void the warranty for your car.

jslate

I'm also sorry if I over-reacted on my part. I do not disagree with you on all counts, however I am saying that since both my dealer, and an independent shop that I trust, both say not to use synthetic, that I have chosen to not be the test case in court.

Jim

larsb

I understand that, and it's also probably true that they make a higher profit on dino oil than they do synthetic oil, so they push what helps feed their family.

But all things are subject to change, and the reality is that back a few years (and decades) ago, when Synthetic oil on the market was not nearly as good as it is now there were actually good reasons not to use it.

In 2005, however, there are Synthetic oils (as my previous posted indicated) that are guaranteed by the large oil companies not to void your warranty.

I will find the court cases and the name of the law which protects consumers from "oil based warranty denials" and post that info here too, for the benefit of others who might be interested.

jslate

It is interesting that Mobil does state (from a snippet from your link):

Myth: Using Mobil 1 will void the warranty on my new car.
Reality: Mobil 1 with SuperSyn Technology will not void new car warranties, with the exception of the Mazda rotary engine (Mazda does not recommend any synthetic motor oil). Mobil 1 exceeds the API and ILSAC motor oil service requirements for all new vehicles, both import and domestic. If in doubt, always check your vehicle owner's manual or contact your vehicle's manufacturer.

Since most new car warranties call for shorter service intervals than those enabled by Mobil 1 Extended Performance, we recommmend you follow the recommendations in your owner's manual while your car is under warranty.

Note: My bold emphasis. It is interesting that they cover themselves with that comment. Since I am in doubt, I will error on the side of caution (which isn't normally my style.)

Jim

larsb

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm#Magnuson-Moss

What all this legaleeze boils down to is that they cannot deny warranty for not using a specific brand of oil unless they have provided that oil FREE OF CHARGE to the consumer, and in turn they could never sue you successfully for using their own brand of oil which supposedly caused a defect, so the consumer is 100% safe:

"Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Improvement Act and general principles of the Federal Trade Commission, a manufacturer may not make its vehicle warranty conditional on the use of any specific brand of motor oil, oil filter or any other component, unless the manufacturer provides it to the customer free of charge. An equipment manufacturer can obtain a waiver if it proves to the FTC that its equipment will function properly only if specific brands of motor oil, oil filters or other components are used. The FTC must be satisfied that this is in the public interest, and this waiver must be published in the Federal Register. This is considered a "waiver" of the prohibitions on conditions of written warranty.

If an OEM requires a customer to use its motor oil and oil filters, the customer should demand the products free of charge. If the demand is refused, the customer should ask for a copy of the warrantor's approved FTC waiver."

cdptrap

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the warranty heads-up.

Good news is, our HH was serviced at our local Toyota Dealership and the shop manager was the one who recommended MobilOne. MobilOne is also widely used by Lexus owners.

The HH manual never specifically rejects use of other brands of oil. It only specifies that oil viscosity must be 5W30 and it must meet API SL or ILSAC standards.

Thankfully, MobilOne meets API SL and ILSAC GF4 standards, so it satisfies Toyota's requirement.

larsb

the warranty CAN BE VOIDED if you go beyond the owner's manual oil change interval MILES ALLOWED. Example: if you use Mobil 1 15K extended performance oil, that's fine, and no warranty work can be denied for that reason. Cannot be voided for the TYPE of oil used.

But if you routinely go 15,000 miles between oil changes, and then have an engine problem which can be determined to be because of under-lubrication, then you HAVE voided your warranty.

There's a diff.....:D

jslate

I just couldn't leave this as it was - I just needed to research it a bit more...

I called the dealer back and prodded them more on the official Toytoa response. He suggested I call Toyota at 800-331-4331 and get their official response. A very friendly lady quoted me from their online FAQ - which I found while she looked up hybrid specific info. Sorry about the long quote.

---------------------------------------------

Synthetic oil may be used if it meets all specifications provided in your Owner’s Manual. Toyota is currently recommending API1 grade SL “energy-conserving” or ILSAC2 multigrade petroleum-based engine oil3 for our vehicles. (The “SL” designation supersedes previous categories such as “SJ” and “SH" and thus can be used in vehicles requiring SJ or SH motor oils.) In moderate climates, this oil should have a Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) viscosity rating of 5W-30*.
If you decide to use synthetic oil for the engine, it is best not to switch until the first scheduled oil change. Synthetic oil should meet the specifications provided in your Owner's Manual. If synthetic oil is used, Toyota recommends that you continue to observe the oil change intervals laid forth in the Scheduled Maintenance Guide. Also, once synthetic oil is used, you should keep using it and not switch back and forth with natural petroleum-based oil.

While synthetic oil may offer some benefits, in our high mileage tests with preventative maintenance performed at the recommended intervals, petroleum-based motor oil has provided excellent service at a reasonable cost. All Toyota vehicles come from the factory with petroleum-based engine oil.

The Toyota New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any damage to the engine resulting from the use of engine oil that is defective or that which does not meet the specifications provided in your Owner's Manual, regardless of whether the oil is natural or synthetic.

1 American Petroleum Institute
2 International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee
3 Please refer to your Owner's Manual for additional information

*except Supra Turbo

-------------------------------------------

When I asked about hybrids she read a very similar missive. I asked if it could be found on their website, she said no, but she would be very glad to send it to me.

Bottom line as I understand it...

If one uses synthetic oil, it must meet or exceed the specs in the manual, it must then be the only oil type used, (they don't want you going back and forth between synthetic and regualr oils), it must be changed at the recommend intervals, and if it can be proved that the oil caused some type of problem, it could void the warranty - as could any other oil.

With all that, (and after rereading the letter they are sending me) I will most likely change my position on this, and switch to Mobil 1 oil. So in that requard, I guesss I might have been WRONG afterall (not in my original facts, just my intended actions.

Thanks for helping me muddle through this.

Jim

larsb

Glad it was cleared up to your satisfaction, Jim.

Way to be "open minded !!" Some people get on this board and never take anything anyone else says at it's real value, and certainly never research it to the point you have.

Congrats on getting the info you needed.

cdptrap

FYI

AMSOIL is the first synthetic introduced into retail auto mkt in 1972. We started using it on our farm around '73, I think. They still make arguably the "best" synthetic around. If you are really into "high end" protection for the HH engine, AMSOIL is certainly a good candidate.

If you want to see some good marketing material (Compares AMSOIL against other synthetics) from AMSOIL, try this...
http://www.go-synthetic.com/amsoil_testing/amsoil_testing.html

The test results are on that page, you need to scroll down a bit to see them.
Interesting read.....

katzjamr

I have the rx 400h and have had two lubes done at the dealer who sold me my vehicle. I was told by the service manager in person that the 400h was shipped from the factory with Castrol Synthetic Blend ( ablend of dino and synthetic) and that they use that oil for oil changes. It is also interesting to note that the 'Toyota World Transmission Fluid' used in the CVT is a full synthetic.

wwest

that the only difference between synthetic motor oil and natural is that the natural was derived by "cooking" animal flesh and plant material for eons and eons?

The molecules that make them both up have all be around since time began....

And by the time the industry finishes refining, "cooking", formulating, and mixing in various additives can you really call still call the natural stuff non-synthetic?

larsb

Browse the web for a few hours doing a little Oil research and you will come to understand the REAL differences and why true Synthetic is better for your engine...Good Luck, please report back with your findings..... :shades:

Kirstie_H

Our discussion called Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2 is a great place for this conversation.

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

bob259

I just paid $695 for the Platinum 7/75k 0 deductible. I believe I was quoted $995 for the 7/100k mile one. My local dealer said thy couldn't match when I pick up my HH. This is the real Toyota extended warranty too.

wwest

Been using Mobil 1 since it became available. The post was meant to tell hesitant folks that it was okay to use synthetic.

larsb

OK gotcha, thanks for clarifying...

bob259

Jim,
My wife has a Prius (I have the HH) and at her first oil change she had Mobil 1 put in and the dealer didn't not say anything. Usually synthetic oil, Mobil 1 included, meets all the standard oil rating guidelines, and 'exceeds' them. So this would not 'void' the warranty. The dealer probably wants to sell you his oil as he makes more $$ that way.

bob259

Jim, You were NOT wrong you were influenced by people you 'trusted', but who are old school and did not research it fully. I once was under that impression myself and now would never switch back to Dino oil. All you have to do is live here in the cold country and watch your oil pressure gauge on a -20 degree morning start and see how fast you get oil pressure with the synthetic oil Vs the Dino to become a believer, also holds true for the desert south west with the heat and what it does to Dino oil.

Go to Mobil 1 and you will never be sorry you made the switch.

wwest

Most dealers use re-refined oil purchased in bulk. And yes, the profits from that are HUGE in comparison.

cdptrap

For everyone here with Goodyear Integrity tires, please be extremely careful when taking your HH onto even well maintained dirt road. The tire is meant for minivan and sedan market, not for SUV or truck.

We just suffered our first flat today and the cause was a tiny sidewall cut visible only when the tire was submerged in the tank. The cut was about 2-inches away from the tread and our tires were set at 37 psi. The Goodyear dealer laughed when he saw these tires on the HH and told me about their minivan/sedan heritage. Paid $40K for a SUV that came with lousy street-only tires :-(.

Looks like we will also be looking to change tires at the first opportunity.

wwest

Methinks you will not be successful in finding ANY tire that is any less susceptable to sidewall damage than the Goodyears. Not saying the Goodyears are any good by any means.

"....street tires....."

And how would you equip an SUV that isn't qualified for anything but "street" use?

My 2001 AWD RX300 is running on the quietest tires I could buy, Bridgestone Turanza summer tires. I use snow chains for wintertime roadbed conditions.

cdptrap

The HH's capability to handle well maintained farm and ranch roads is not in question. If our 11-year-old Caravan (on 4 Bridgeston Turanza :-) ) can handle these roads, the HH has better do the same.

Another PAIN with the HH tire is its sizing. We contacted 6 shops and visited 2 in person including the Goodyear shop and none has that size tire in stock. All must order their tires (Bridgestone, Michelin, Toyo, Goodyear, Dunlop) and it will take 1 to 2 days. They all say 225-65R17 is not too common so they do not stock it. UGH! :-(

Oh well, live and learn....

myladdie

Thanks to all on the timely synthetic oil discussions. Just had my supplied Mobil 1 put in today on my 1st 5k service. Been using Mobil 1 in my 98 Saturn since it was new. The viscosity at 20 below is the same as summer, which sure helps getting started on those cold mornings. It may seem unbelievable, but the dealer forgot(?) to do any of the other items on the 5k service. Only did the iol change. Boy, you have to check everybody on everything these days.
Also learned from this forum about having the dealer change the door opener to open all doors with just one click, not 2. It works great, but I did not realize that I would have to pay $45 for .7 hour to get it reprogrammed. At least the service manager promised to do the omitted items from the 5k check tomorrow, pro bono.
Keep up the useful discussions.

pcrit

The first thing I did when I bought my HL last Feb was to replace the Integrity tires with Michelin Cross Terrain (just look at the rating for the Integrity and you'll see why I "dumped" them as fast as I could). It took me 10months to find someone who would buy the new set of "odd sized" Goodyear tires.

Fortunately, my HH came with Michelin so I don't have to go through that again.

wwest

Sorry, I agree, I should have pointed out that "roadbed" would be a more appropreate statement than "street".

katzjamr

katzjamr

Most dealers will do the first reprogramming free, my dealer will do it at no charge in the future if you are in for another service. Since you have to make a second trip to complete the 5000 mi service work that should have been done the first time,, make them do the C best reprogramming at no charge. It is five minutes of their time with a handheld programmer.

cdptrap

No problem, "roadbed" is better.

We ended up ordering the Goodyear Fortera SilentArmor. Consumer Report likes the original Goodyear Fortera but we wanted strong sidewall, so we ended up with the silent whatever. I sure hope these new feet last for the next 50K miles.

This one supposedly has the same Dura-wall material (sidewall) used in the Wrangler MT/R and it is 2-ply versus the Integrity's 1-ply, so it has better hold up.

gazguzler

Has anyone figured out if it's true (as the iGuide says) that you can program the doors to lock at a set speed and the windows going up and down together from the key in the door?

jslate

Just to close this thread, here is a copy of the important parts of the letter Toyota sent me.

Thank you for contacting us regarding the use of synthetic oil in your 2006 Toyota Highlander.

As Toyota has not conducted any research in this area and does not manufacture this product, we neither support nor deny the claims that its use will enhance or prolong engine life or that it does not need to be changed as frequently.

Whether you use standard motor oil or a synthetic oil, we recommend that you follow the maintenance schedule as outlined in your Owner's Manual and use only the specified weight and grade. The warranty provided by Toyota will generally remain in effect as long as these requirements are met; if, however, a condition arises on the vehicle and that condition can be attributed to improper lubricants, the warranty on the affected components may be voided. Vehicle manufacturers' warranties cover defects in
material or workmanship and would not cover a condition caused by factors beyond the manufacturer's control.

Toyota values you as a customer and we appreciate the opportunity to address your
concerns.

Sincerely

Diane Hoffman
Toyota Customer Experience

upstateny5

Based on messages on this forum I read the reviews on both the Goodyear Integrity tires and the Michelin tires - BOTH tires got some pretty bad reviews. I would like to hear recommendations on replacements that will do well in snow and rain (no off road driving here).

robroi

I wrote to Toyota, http://toyota.custhelp.com, asking about the Auto Door Lock Feature (when the vehicle reaches a set speed). The Highlander Hybrid iGuide says this can be programmed by the dealer. Here is their response:

The Highlander Hybrid i-Guide was published before the Highlander Hybrid went into production. Toyota planned to offer the automatic door locking feature on the Highlander Hybrid Limited Model only. However, the automatic door locking feature was not an option once the vehicle went into production.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

pcrit

I used the ratings on tirerack.com The limiting factor is that there are not that many tires made for the 225/65SR/17 rims, so you don't have a lot of tire choices for the HH....yet. The Integrity has ratings of 4.7 and 4.2 (wet, snow respectively). The rest of the ratings were 4's 5's and a few 6's. The Michelin Cross Terrain I put on my 17" rim HL has a rating of 8.4 and 7.7 (wet, snow), with the rest being 8's and a 9.0 (dry).

My HH came with Michelin Energy MXV4 (I'm pretty sure that's the version) and rates 6.8 and 5.6 (wet, snow)with the rest of the ratings being 7's and while not as good as the Cross Terrains, it's still much better than the Goodyear tires. Tread wear is 8.1, 7.2 and 5.6 for the Cross, Energy, and Integrity in that order.

Hope this info helps. Hopefully more tire versions will be made in the HH size and we'll have more/better to choose from in a year or two.

upstateny5

Thank you - it looks like the Bridgestone Dueler H/L Alenza is also an option and ratings are excellent for snow.

gazguzler

I just bought a zerostart heat magnet (mfg:temro). I'm going to have it on a timer in the morning so, shortly before we leave the house, it'll heat up the CC (and we'll try the oil pan) to see if there's anyway of reducing engine idling at start up.

I'll report any findings in the journal Science or Nature.

:-)

Wish me luck!

cdptrap

GOOD LUCK! When will you post the Abstract and the White Paper !?

discussion1

Yeah, the Fortera Silent Armor is really nice. I also hope it will last at least 60K miles. Its warranty is for 70K miles. Not trying to sell the Fortera here, just relaying our experience.

The Goodyear Integrity is not a good choice for the HH. The Integrity severely limits the potential of the HH while better tiresof any brand can provide safer and better ride and performance.

We had our *second* :-( flat tire back in mid-september, another sidewall cut, so we junked the Integrity and used the Fortera SA. Can't believe Toyota puts such cheap tires on this car and then also dropped the tire pressure monitor.

The Fortera is quieter on rough street and freeway while the Integrity has a noticeable but soft howl. We did not notice this difference until the tire change.

While the Integrity absorbed little bumps and holes well on street surface, it pitched and rocked hard over deeper holes and larger bumps. The Fortera smooths those out easily but gives a bit more road feel.

The Fortera's better traction supports coasting and rolling to a final smooth stop like a "regular" car. My wife loves this because she hates literally having to step on the brake pedal just to stop the HH, especially the last 10 feet when it was running on the Integrity.

Handling improvement is a huge surprise bonus. Fortera makes the HH responds quickly to steering turns. The Integrity liked to plow forward especially when accelerating for a quick lane change on freeways. The Integrity made the steering felt very heavy, almost locked forward before a turn would begin. Not so with the Fortera, turn the steering and it goes.

On corners and turns, the HH feels even more secured at posted speed, it takes them with no hesitation and with absolutely tight gripping control.

As a truck tire, the Fortera SA has tread wrapped upward 2 inches before sidewall begins. Those 2 inches are perfect protection against low sidewall cuts, the cause of our 2 flats thus far. Add the 2-ply sidewall, it is a well protected tire.

Mileage is still around 28 MPG with these tires.

The Fortera SA does not come in 225, the smallest is 235 so for a 235-65R17 tire, it adds 0.25 inch to the height of the tread and 0.39 inch to the tread width. This is not a problem in the front wheel-well but it is a tight fit in the rear wheel-well. We considered a 235-55R17 but decided to take the height advantage.

We suggest to owners here to consider other tires that provide better traction if nothing else. Just improved braking is worth the change.

nimrod99

Does anyone know the Toyota Part number for the following
(all for the 2006 Hybrid Highlander)
LH and RH rear brake lamp assembly
Connectors from wiring harness to lamp assembly
The "in-line" component widget which has something to do with the LED lamp assembly (vs the non LED lamp Highlanders)

thanks

elkeye

Toyota Canada offers an engine block heater (reportedly, Toyota Part # C0140-00644) for the Hybrid Highlander. Can anyone provide any information on the core hole plug location and heating element direction (o'clock position) when the Toyota engine block heater is installed in the the Hybrid Highlander? What engine components, if any, must be removed to gain access to the core hole plug location on the Hybrid Highlander? Has anyone in the USA had an engine block heater installed by a Toyota dealer in a Hybrid Highlander?

thanks

gazguzler

That part number's definately wrong. Never starts with a letter and it's 10digits. It'd be interesting. I'm experimenting with an after market heater on the CC and block.