Toyota Highlander Hybrid

cdptrap

In the 2nd link in my reply above, I gave a parent link instead of the exact link. Exact link below.

This article clearly shows that Sierra Club uses the word "MUSCLE" to refer to GM's false advertsing. It is PDF and may take a few moments to load but really worth reading.

http://www.sierraclub.org/globalwarming/FalseAdvertising.pdf

Be happy, the Sierra Club is not out to bash all of us HH owners .

cdptrap

Now that you have me started on this conservation bit....

GM, Ford, Toyota and others sued California when we were fighting for emission control and reduction. If it were not for California's EV inititative, we may not be driving gas-electric hybrid today. Sierra Club was squarely in the middle of the EV initiative (had to say that ).

Toyota saw an opportunity in CA's EV inititative and appllied innovation to make the best of it. GM got fat, big and arrogant, so did Ford, so they sat and snickered until the fire burnt down their houses.

What does this have to do with the V6 HH? I believe Toyota needed to make a bold and impressive statement when it delivered the RX400H and the Highlander Hybrid. In one well-aimed shot, it addressed all the concerns skeptics have over gas-electric hybrid and showed that the technology

1. is environmentally responsible even in a 2-ton SUV!
2. can achieve high performance,
3. is appropraite for luxury and common-person models,
4. is capable of excellent MPG for a 2-ton SUV.

Toyota must come out with a bang and set the bar so high that there is no room for criticism of its technology and feasibility. This is common practice when introucing new technology. I have not heard GM, FOrd, Chevy, Mercedes, Acura, or anyone having anything to laugh about. Their silence is thunderous. They are all scrambling to figure out how to catch up.

While a V6 HH may be harder to sell, it definitely is a brilliant strategic move and a necessary one for Toyota if it is to lead the market and dominate.

It knows that with such high performance, it will also draw a wider customer base. People who do not care about gas mileage will buy it for its performance. People who want the roominess can buy the car for its hybrid efficiency. It is a masterful insight.

If Toyota had came out with an I4 gas-sipper in a 2-ton, it will target only the "green" crowd thus limiting its appeal. For people with practical needs like me, I will gripe about its power and likely will just buy a Sienna van.

GM will bash the I4 by claiming how gas-hybrid technology is just not mature enough yet for larger cars, that GM's own "fake insulting" hybrid technology that gets 19-mpg is the best we can have, that it will be 10 more years before gas-electric becomes feasible and by that time, we will all be driving hydrogen cars so GM will conclude that we should just all wait for the hydrogen fuel cars. The American consumers will bow our collective heads and bravely soldier on into more smoggy summer days.

I belive Toyota understands the purchase cost issue but it needed to make this "flagship" type product to bolster its green image and show off its technical excellence. The resulting enhancement to the Toyota brand is worth a lot more long term than criticism it may receive with an I4.

From here on out, Toyota can afford to use tune-up I4, may be a 210-hp Highlander that is a gas sipper. Toyota has taken the initiative in this offensive, it can now work to widen the gap by offering more choices.

I just wish wish wish an American company had done this first.

igh

All that argument is fine but Toyota could give
a choice. A cheaper fuel sipping I4 hybrid of
about 200HP but 40mpg to a power packed V6 Hybrid of
320HP but 25mpg. The consumer can decide which one
to buy.

cdptrap

Yes, I agree with you completely. The I4 is definitely a valid choice. My comments were on why they could not afford an I4 at first introduction. Now they can do all sorts of option.

If they offer an I4 producing between 200-hp to 215-hp in 2007 and we need another people-hauler and the price is right, we will buy it over the 268-hp version.

I also wish for an upgrade path so our current '06 HH can get plug-in capability and new batteries that can drive it even further on full-electric. Toyota should consider this seriously.

wwest

Then why not a V6 with "best efforts" for fuel economy?

Say derating the engine using the Atkinson cycle? Or even an I4 with the Miller cycle. Miller cycle uses the Atkinson concept of delayed intake valve closure but with a supercharger.

Mazda Millenia S gained 23% in fuel economy that way using a 2.3L V6 and still putting out more than enough HP.

They probably couldn't use the Atkinson Cycle alone and still have enough energy in the exhaust to HEAT the catalyst to its optimum operating temperature, at least not quickly.

igh

The current RAV4 I4 engine is rated at 166HP
with 4wd mpg rated at 23/27. If the electric motors
are added to this it will create a 220 HP hybrid
with approximate mileage 40/33 (guess). This vehicle
will be more powerful than the original V6 non-hybrid
Highlander (215 HP). If you look at the reviews of this
vehicle on Edmunds, very few have complained that
this vehicle is underpowered. This can be win-win
combination for most people.

I have almost lost hope for a plug-in
option. No carmaker seems interested. I guess only
when 3rd party companies will do these
modifications for a fee and many people will start
doing this, then they will take notice. The excuse
that battery technology is not mature is totally untrue.
With a plug-in the above vehicle will easily get 80-90
mpg (sigh).

With E85 fuel it could get 400 mpg (gas only).

carz89

Many people in this forum have estimated huge MPG improvements if car makers produced hybrids with plug-in recharging capability. Let's not jump to dramatic conclusions so fast. Yes, the hybrid vehicle's MPG will go up, even substantially if limited to short trips. However, don't forget the likely significant increase in your household electric bill! And remember that most of that electricity originates from fossil-fuel burning power plants. Secondly, much energy is lost in the conversion of electrical energy to chemical potential energy, and again back to electrical energy. There are also significant energy losses in the electric motors.

In summary, it seems like a great idea on the surface, but it's not as simple as it appears. I hope someone takes this conversation one step further and calculates the actual monetary cost benefit and environmental benefit to recharging a hybrid's batteries with a household electrical supply.

igh

This calculation has been done at many places and
it turns out cheaper (about 1/2) to charge overnight
with 1kwh of electricity at 10-15 cents.

Anyway it does not matter for me as all my electricity
is generated from solar panels on my roof. I am
willing to add more solar panels to offset the extra
electricity needed for charging plug-ins. Now if
only somebody will give me that option.

cdptrap

Our house runs on PV Solar and currently sell more to our power company than we are using. You do have a good point in that the majority of general public do not have PV solar. May be plug-in should be an option. Good point!

gagrice

Another bigger consideration is the cost of batteries. The folks that are converting the Prius to a plug-in are estimating the cost at about $12k. At the current mileage of the Prius, 50 MPG, you can buy 4000 gallons of gas at $3 per gallon. 200,000 miles worth of gas. It is the reason electric vehicles are not being sold. Great idea if they can cut the cost of batteries by about 90%.

igh

2 reasons for the 12K extra.

- using off the shelf components that are not
mass produced or tailor made for hybrids
- adding a new system on top a prefectly working
existing system that already needed 4K extra
to build

If hybrids are mass produced with plug-in in mind
the cost will come down to 3-4K extra (on top of
a normal hybrid) or even lower.

Now the point is many people see value in many
things. From pure gas point of view it may take
long to break even, but there is also an evironmental
impact and if I may say now a national security impact
by not using gas. Some people spend 10K more to
get that 100 HP more engine on the same model that
goes from 0-60 mph in 0.5 sec less. Some people may
spend 3-4K extra just to burn less gas for the above
reasons.

I would love to live in a time when no fossil fuels
are burnt. I am willing to spend money on it but I
do not want to compromise my lifestyle for it. This
technology coupled with renewable energy and bio-fuels
can get us there.

gagrice

This technology coupled with renewable energy and bio-fuels can get us there.

I think biodiesel is the most logical way to weaning ourselves off fossil fuel. Other biofuels such as ethanol make more problems than they solve. I don't see hydrogen being useful in my lifetime. Probably not in my children's lifetime. CNG is useful though still fossil fuel.

I really think you are off price on batteries for hybrids. You should calculate how big the battery would have to be for you to drive 30 miles at say 35 MPH in a Highlander. I don't think you would want that much weight added to an already overweight vehicle.

otis1

I think biodiesel is the most logical way to weaning ourselves off fossil fuel.

There's a local professor who does a lot of work with biodeisel. at one point he admited if all of the soybeans grown in the us were used to make biodiesel, that supply would only feed 5% of our gasoline needs. I don't have any references to back this up other than hearsay, but it sounds somewhat reasonable as even W has stated we have an addiction to oil.

anyway let me steer this post back on course. Supposedly that company that retrofits hybrids to plugins can apply the technology to the HH. Yes it will be expensive but this is always the price the early adopter has to pay. Maybe if they're saavy enough, they can buy "white body" hybrids from toyota, sans battery, and other components and sell "brand new" plug in hybrids.

rodney12

It believe it will happen soon, say over the next 3 years. There is a great deal of pressure on automakers to do it. There is a group called Plug-in Partners that is a broad based grassroots effort to bring this about. Local governments in major cities as well as hundreds of power companies are already onboard. Their launch video on the site includes a presentation with some compelling data, including the calculation you mention. You can also sign their petition to the automakers (I did).

gagrice

I was an early proponent of electric vehicles. I think you are going to add $15k or more to the price of the HH to make it a PHEV. As much as I would like to plug a car in and use it for short trips to the store, I don't see a practical PHEV in our future.

Soybeans are not the best crop for biodiesel. The University of New Hampshire study says we can produce 100% of our fuel needs with biodiesel. It will not happen till we run out of cheap Middle Eastern oil.

wwest

a tag-a-long diesel ~13HP genset to continuously charge the batteries on the go.

82415

Everybody has probably seen the Toyota Concept FT-SX vehicle. If not you could follow this link
FT-SX Concept

I think if Toyota decides to go ahead with this concept into production it will probably be a Lexus first then T will tone it down to a next gen Highlander because of the sloping roof line in the current concept that would limit it to a 5-seater. Otherwise this design looks good to be the next gen HiHy.

Any comments?

typesix

Letting gas run too low is also bad for fuel pump in summer as the gasoline cools the pump and also provides lubrication for the pump. Also running the chance of misfire by running too low on gas which catalytic converter doesn't like. I wouldn't run less than 1 gallon remaining.

tommyg12

Anybody experienced snow/slippery conditions with a AWD HHL? I used to own a '01 HL AWD which worked very well in slippery conditions. Looking at a new HHL and curious as to how effective the HHL setup is.

82415

Had a chance to try it out in 5" of wet snow. It was fine, great traction. VDIM kicked in with the warning light and buzzer going off but the HiHy tracked beautifully. I had Dunlop Grandtrek SJ6 winter tires on so I guess it must have helped. Have yet to try it on ice.

kdhspyder

Using the HSD whether in a Prius or in a HH or in the new Camry one should be able to attain about a 30-35% increase in FE overall.
Using some baselines: ( mpg )
Prius over 4c Corolla.. 47 vs 35
HH over 3.3L ICE HL.... 25 vs 18
TCH over 2.4L ICE Camry 35 vs 27

In perfect City driving conditions, not doing silly things just driving the same way the EPA does it's tests...

The Prius can regularly get FE values in the 70's
The HH can regularly get FE values in the 30's
The TCH will likely be able to get FE values in the 40's

1) Short trips and cold weather when combined will essentially negate all the FE benefits of a hybrid. You are driving an ICE vehicle.

2) On long trips, with minor variations you should easily get near EPA values.

tallmand

We drove our HHL across northeast South Dakota during the worst ice storm in recent history. The governor went on the radio to warn that only fools would be on the highway that afternoon. The car was encased in about a quarter-inch of ice when we got home. We counted about a dozen cars in the ditches along the highway. Bottom line is that the HHL handled superbly. Despite our relatively poor gas mileage (22 mph overall), we are delighted with our purchase due to the vehicle's road-worthiness in adverse weather.

cdptrap

Hi Tallmand,

Did you have to do anything special (besides slowing) to keep car on road or did the car just drive normally straight through the ice storm?

We are packing up to leave on a long trip to see family in Michigan next week, so any good handling hints will be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance
Cal.

target2

I recently purchased a highlander hybrid without a navigation system, but the salesman and sales manager told my husband and I that they could have the EXACT same one that toyota uses installed. We asked them at least 6 times about this, and in fact, gave us the brochure showing the navigation system that toyota uses. We had a 6 disc player and tape player into the SUV we purchased, but when the guy came to install the navigation system, he removed this and installed a single disc CD player with the navigation system, He,said this is how toyota installs their navigation system, with a single disc CD player. I contacted the lady at customer relations at the dealership, and she said the same thing. I find this to be untrue since toyota's website states that you have to have a 6 disc player to install the navigation system. Is there anyone who knows, or has the toyota installed navigation system?

kdhspyder

In past years the Navi cancelled the 6 disc in all Toyota's replacing it with a single disk. Beginning this year they are offering a 4 disk changer and navi.

I'm shocked actually that a dealership is actually installing a Navi post-sale. I was lead to believe it was an FIO only. How much did they charge for it?

judi3

I have the factory installed navigation system in my HH and it definately comes with 6 disc CD and a tape player.

target2

there was no charge on the navigation system because when we were negotiating the cost of the SUV, it was more than we wanted to pay. We told them we would think about it, because we were also looking at the Honda Pilot and the Honda Odessey. The sales manager said he would take off the cost of the navigation system, and once again that is when we ask them about it being the same one as toyota installs and they said "YES". If I would have known that it was going to eliminate my 6 disc CD player, and that it was not anything like the one Toyota installs, I would never have bought this.

target2

I never questioned that the CD player would become a single disc because according to Toyota's website, you had to have the 6 disc player to get the navigation system. We have the highlander hybrid limited, so it comes with the 6 disc changer.

tallmand

Nothing special at all. We have all-weather tires. We did slow (to about 30 mph), but I felt the most hair-raising stretch was when we came upon a line of about 5 cars going even slower than we. Much to my wife's consternation, I passed them. Throughout the whole trip, the car never even fashed its skid warning light.

82415

We bought the HiHy Limited in Canada and also bargained in a Nav. We were led to believe that it would also show the power distribution and consumption like in the Prius. When we took delivery the dealer installed a standard Toyota Nav and it came with a single CD drive. Not only that, it turned out that in Canada we don't get the Power and Consumption screens that are standard with the Nav in U.S.A. The Nav was alright, nothing special, so we decided to return it for a credit and had the original 6-CD changer JBL stereo put back in.

target2

did you try to contact the dealer about this? If they told me that the 6 disc CD would be removed, I would never have bought it from this particuliar dealer. They lied about the whole system, because they gave me the brochure showing the navigation system with all of the things you talked about.

82415

We did not know that we would lose the 6-disc changer if we chose the Nav. As far as the consumption and power distribution screens, I think the salesperson was even less knowledgeable than I was. Part of the problem was that no demo was available to show us anything because of the shortage of hybrids in our area. I don't really care about the CD changer but my wife did so we decided to get it installed back in and in the process save some dough.

By the way, the "standard Nav" that they installed, it is possible to connect it to an external CD changer. I read about that in the manual that came with it. If you really want to have a CD changer and don't really care about the consumption screen, etc. you could ask them to install a changer. There are sites on the internet that sell rear view camera and other accessories that interface with the Toyota standard Nav.

To make the story short, we wanted the power and consumption screens but could not have it due to our Canadian version so we returned it and got the original stereo with the 6-disc changer back and saved some $. The Nav was not entirely accurate anyway, we tested it out for a week (not because of the Nav limitation but because of the GPS limitation in general)

kelvam

Hi,

I'm new to the forum... so hopefully I post at the right place. I'm trying to find other's experience with purchasing a Hybrid Limited. Since 2007 will be a new model, and we all know there's a dealer holdback offer so we should be able to bargin to get the absolute bottom price.

Being in So-California, Hybrid is still quite hot on the market. I think anything below 5% markup would be hard to get. So I am shooting for a 5%...

4WD 3.3 L, 268 HP Highlander Hybrid Limited
Dealership Invoice Price $34,021.00 from invoice
Edmunds Invoice Price $35,198.00 3.46% markup
KBB Invoice Price $35,803.00 5.24% markup
Toyota Published MSRP $39,290.00 15.49% markup
My target price $35,722.05 5.00% markup
Floor Mats Invoice Price $126.00
Navigation Invoice Price $1,700.00
Dealer Holdback -$785.00
Final Total Price $36,763.05
Sale Tax $3,032.95 (8.25 %)
Destination Charge $605.00
Doc Fee $45.00
Tire Tax $8.75
DMV Fee $306.00
Out-the-door Est. $40,760.75

Am I dreaming or not? I was able to find some other thread claiming that he/she got one from Carson Toyota for 34.6k?!?!?!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

discussion1

For CA SF Bay area HH owners, if you need an opportunity to experience this car's handling characteristics, try driving up to Henry Coe State Park. The park is 15 miles south of San Jose in the mountains 12 miles east of HWY 101 in Morgan Hill. The drive is a narrow 1-lane climb with vertical drop on 1 side. Drive slow, safe and careful up this road as you experience the ease with which this 2-ton car confidently handles the many switch-backs and steep grade.

The park is beautiful this time of the year and with this season's rain and recent snow, spring bloom will be spectacular. As another mid-west poster (Gaz) suggested for mid-west owners, we can hold an informal, come-as-u-can SF Bay Area HH "rally" up in Coe park .

We were just up there this past weekend and got caught in a storm. The instant torque, the CVT and the handling response really made it easy through the rain, sleet, hail and then snow flurry as we gained elevation. We have the Goodyear SA Fortera tires, they probably helped too.

mmreid

My husband came home tonight and said he heard on the radio that Travelers Insurance was offering discounts on auto insurance for hybrid owners. As the first website I checked said, this is one for the small print. The brief bit of research I did said it was 10% for folks in their "preferred group" which is male or female drivers ages 41 to 60. Savings should add up to about $100/year.

I asked spousal unit if this looked good and he said not for us because we get both our home and auto insurance from same company which adds up to a savings of about $1,000/year. But for some people, maybe this deal is worth it. I "googled" Travelers Insurance for hybrids and lots popped up. Just wanted to pass this along.

mmreid

jslate

http://www.gizmag.com/go/5252/

Interesting if they can get the price MUCH lower.

Jim

jslate

And from the company's website:

http://www.hymotion.com/products/index.htm

mike4698

I called my agent, and yes I will save about $52.00 for the year. Yes I have my home and car with Travelers and I also get the safe driver discount. Anything will help today.

igh

This is cool.
At 4-5K with volume production,
I would buy one tomorrow.

pearlander

Took the plunge and got our '06 HH Ltd with NAV (NAV was the only add-on option). Dealer wouldn't budge on the MSRP, but threw in the rear DVD ent and side boards. Toyota Finance also had a 2.9% financing special. We're real excited!

kdhspyder

Congratulations.. If you have any questions come on back and post them. Lot's of people have a lot to offer you.

discussion1

Same here, 4-5K system that nets 50 miles to a gallon for our HH, I will buy it. We have a grid-tied 10KW Solar PV system so charging will be free.

pearlander

Thanks! It even came with an interactive DVD explaining all the features of the vehicle and how to use them - sure beats reading the owner's manual.

otis1

I checked out that page and it was pretty interesting. I did find 2 interesting points:

1. the anticipated $5k price tag. Being from missouri, I guess I'll beleive it when you showme.

2. there was a link to a BMW engine that included a heat cycle steam engine. I thought that was incredible. as most of us have heard, the ICE is only about 30% efficient due to heat loss. Imagine the improvements if we could utilze some of this "lost work."

2b. as a secondary point, I once asked why the catalytic converter wasn't placed closer to the exhaust manifold because I had been reading all this talk about how the ICE engine must run to heat up the cat to a certain temp. The response I got was that the exhaust was only 200 degrees F. While I found that hard to believe, I took it as true. If you look at the diagram provided there, the temp coming out of the engine is 800C or over 1400F. So I ask the question again- why isn't the cat placed closer to the engine?

wwest

2b. Space.....

womble

hi - anyone leased a limited hybrid in socal recently? with $1999 drive off i've been quoted $500 + tax (without navigation)... is this reasonable? I was told msrp was $38,695, money factor .00058 and residual $22,335.

downthehighway

Hi. My interest in getting a HH was strong last summer, waned with the appearance of the NY Times articles about mileage, and now is waxing again.

So can anybody please tell me:

1) Why I see so few HHs on the road. I live 60 miles south of Chicago, but am in the city and suburbs a lot. Plus, since last summer I've been to Austin, Dallas, Milwaukee, and the Sacremento area. Total HHs (and LHs) spotted since last July (I identify them by the wavy-blue-striped tag on the rear door): two. Like Pete Seeger says, where have all the hybrids gone?

2) About cooling problems. A mechanic I trust told me that HHs have some considerable unresolved cooling system issues, and so I should not buy but lease one for the next couple of years, until those bugs are worked out. I've read or at least scanned every posting on this forum since 12/09/05, and found not a thing about this. Can anybody reinforce, or discredit, this notion?

3) What kind of gas the HH uses. Is it premium?

4) What the best dealer is within 50 miles of Bourbonnais, Illinois. Well, I'll go further, if the deal is really great.

Thank you. Happy motoring.

discussion1

NY Times Mileage:
If stellar gas mileage is a must, Prius and Insight are the best choices, not the HH.

Most writers love bringing up the silly point of "getting your money back". I certainly would like to get the Hybrid premium back in gas saving but that is a wrong reason to buy the HH. Do people who buy $75000 Mercedes or BMW or HUMMER look to get their money back from their...what?... return-on-investment in luxuries and vanity??? Why are these writers obsessively focusing on ROI just because it is a gas-electric hybrid?

I think of the HH as a clean (SULEV) V8-like SUV that gives me V6 gas mileage without any work on my part. When I do practice gas-saving driving techniques, it is capable of achieving good gas mileage for a 2-ton car. It is just a cleaner burning large car with a different engine technology.

1) Why I see so few HHs on the road.
I read somewhere last May that Toyota is allocating only 15000 HH for the US. If that number is correct, and they are spread out all over the nation... In the SF Bay Area, I have seen 2 in San Francisco, 2 in Cupertino, 2 in San Jose area. Counting ours makes 7. I have lost count of how many Prius are on the road.

2) About cooling problems.
We drove ours in 90F-110F heat last summer all over CA with A/C blastng to keep us cool at 68-F inside. Coolng problems???

3)) What kind of gas the HH uses. Is it premium?
Toyota recommends Premium for best performance. We use permium.

discussion1

To be clear, when I wrote "writers", I was referring to magazine and newspaper writers, not posters in this forum.

Happy Hybriding....

82415

I agree with your point. I happened to be at the Toronto Auto Show yesterday and actually looked at the HyMotion kit for the Ford Escape Hybrid. It took a fair bit of room behind the 2nd row seat and I would guess that the 3rd row jump seat on the HiHy would be rendered unusable..but wait it is now anyway

No indication from the HyMotion people as to when the kit for the HiHy will be available.