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Comments
Normally the SC could just "lag" along only supplying a tad more than sea level atmospheric pressure, yielding absolutely stellar FE. Except at 3/4 throttle or greater it would supply ~5 lbs of boost, then the beast would out run a scalded cat, or today's HLh or RXh.
I would also add a mode switch that the driver could activate if there is a long "cruise" drive ahead. The mode switch would disable the use of the electrics in favor of just using the ICE, maybe with quicker SC onset.
IMMHO that would substantially improve highway MPG, wherein otherwise the ICE is the only source, primarily, for maintaining the hybrid battery charge state.
Just add a pre-processor to the front wheels' ABS sensors so that they appear to slip each time an incremental downward movement is made on the gas pedal. The hybrid system will react to the "slippage" by instantly making the rear motor the primary motive force.
The Prius ACTUAL compression ratio is ~13:1, the EFFECTIVE ratio is only 10:1. This is done by leaving the intake valve open for a fixed period of the compression stroke, allowing a portion of the A/F mixture to be forced back into the intake manifold.
The positive effect of this is to have, effectively, a longer power stroke than the compression stroke, converting a higher percentage of the fuel "burn" into usefull motive force. On the negative side a 2.0L engine now produces only the power of a 1.4L.
Mazda made up for the difference by going one step beyond the Atkinson Cycle, to the Miller Cycle engine. Added an SC to BOOST the inlet charge and make up for that 30% power loss and still attain that ~30 improvement in FE.
To which Mazda model are you referring?
The rear electric motors are not designed for that much use. They would overheat. Toyota might be able to implement more use, by upping the motors, and modifying the master CPU, but a "DIY" would probably end up damaging the vehicle.
There is a good reason that Toyota does not recommend going "off road" - the AWD will not stand for it.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/02/07/2008-toyota-highlander/
I am sure that there a lot of opinions, but it looks pretty good to me.
Wes
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/future/highlander.html
Videos from Chicago Auto Show, pictures and details. Regular this summer, hybrid fall. Here's what the first page says:
The design of the all-new 2008 Toyota Highlander does more than evoke the future; with available Hybrid Synergy Drive®, your mileage is futuristic, too. The all-new 2008 Highlander Hybrid intelligently captures energy otherwise lost by coasting or braking to recharge the battery. Combined with a conventionally powered gas engine, the 2008 Highlander Hybrid will leave other SUVs in its low-emissions dust.
Inside, the 2008 Highlander provides available 7-passenger seating [1] with the versatile Center-Stow™ 2nd-row seat. Indulge 6 [1] people in amenities like captain's chairs and a removable 2nd-row console, or modify Center-Stow™ to carry 7 [1]. And just as the comfortable interior modifies to your changing life, Toyota Highlander's dynamic, car-like ride adapts to a twisty road. Bigger. Wider. More powerful. And filled with safety innovations that are our hallmark. The all-new 2008 Toyota Highlander. Coming summer 2007. (Hybrid, fall 2007.)
To me it's a refresh and modernization, like the previous to current Camry, what I would expect from Toyota, not a radical redesign like some in previous discussions were hoping for. But we bought the HH for practicality and this looks like practical, some nice-looking new features (second row seats for instance), but nothing to make us want to trade in (at least until the one we have wears out, maybe 8-10 years from now!). Check it out... - John
Too radical a change would have made it blend into the rest. It takes a dignified updating.
Except for those two intriguing features (buttons), the new HH is larger but nothing that will make me trade in. I understand Khdspyder's comments about a dignified upgrade but it has too much of the Sienna lines, almost a retro to make it look like a van. Overall feel is not very attractive. I would prefer either a full-bore Tundra or 4-Runner type look.
In any case, the car is heavier but the engine power only got up to 270-hp. May be Toyota will cap it at 270 while the gas-engine version goes up to 280 or 300 in the future. This may be Toyota's answer to having a "higher" FE version in the Highlander line. Just like TCH in the Camry line.
I still prefer the current HH for a nice blend of handling and performance. It is 500-lbs lighter with a net power of 268-hp. It turns on a dime and parks in tight little spaces. It is small but small has its advantages too
economy mode on the 2008 highlander non-hybrid board
but got no answer. I did some Googling and found that the
Ford Escape Hybrid 2008 model will have an economy mode
too. What it does is to switch off the AC when the vehicle
is idling. That way the ICE can always be shut off at
a stop whether you have AC on or not.
The EV mode lets the vehicle go 1 mile under 25 mph on battery alone if there is full charge.
I am disappointed that Toyota decided not to bring
out an I4 HH with about 220HP. 220HP would be enough
for 0-60 under 10 sec even in this heavier vehicle.
I do not know why people would like to race in
such a heavy large vehicle. Sub 10sec 0-60 is adequate
for most normal driving. Otherwise nobody would buy the
Prius. Maybe it would not be adequate for towing but then
those folks can opt of the more powerful model. I was really hoping for >35mpg city with 2008 EPA standards.
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157632,00.html
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157557,00.html
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8910.pdf
"The Energy Policy Act of 2005 provides a credit for taxpayers who purchase certain energy efficient vehicles, including Qualified Hybrid vehicles."
NOTE: only the original owner gets the credit, the amount of which depends on when the vehicle was purchased.
Those of you favoring income tax increases please disregard this posting.
As far as power goes, it does come in mighty handy on busy, old east-coast highways with inadequate access ramps and fast-moving traffic. Been forced to drive an underpowered Cobalt while our HH is in the body shop (thanks to a driver who turned in front of my wife we've been renting for a month and no way did we want to spend the rental for anything larger and even less fuel efficient) and after this experience I'm quite willing to trade for that power. Considering the Cobalt is doing no better in mileage than the HH, the balance between economy and ability to move with traffic is a fair compromise. Can't wait to get the HH back, will feel so much safer, I'd hate to see what a Cobalt would have looked like, or more important my wife, with the same type of accident. We purchased the HH because we didn't want just adequate, and were willing to pay for the difference. And it's in the non-normal conditions that better safety considerations - which can include things like reserve power - come into play.
Perhaps Toyota found that an i4 based HH wasn't enough of a benefit to add it to the line or change the engine. And maybe they have other tricks to come, such as speculation they're working on diesel hybrids. Will have to wait and see if there are other tricks behind those buttons, there's a lot of time between now and the new hybrid release.
And in the meantime, normal driving, freeway cruising, the FE would be more in the class of the Prius.
This paragraph, towards the end, addresses hybrids and some of the "why not" discussions in this and related threads. From the article:
Toyota expects to be in business 100 years from now, one person in the company’s West Coast office told me, long after oil has been depleted or rendered unusable because of its carbon content, and for that reason it has placed all its bets on hybrid technologies. Indeed, Toyota created its hybrid systems not so much with the current era in mind, but because it views hybrids as more practical and energy-efficient. Whether the future is in biodiesel, ethanol or hydrogen doesn’t seem to matter; the hybrid system could be adapted to any of those fuels, says Bill Reinert, Toyota’s U.S. engineer in charge of advanced vehicle planning. Reinert also told me that the current Toyota system already has the ability to accommodate the larger battery capacity of a plug-in hybrid, which would use electric power for local trips and fuel only for longer excursions. But those large batteries don’t yet exist. Was that extra capacity put there on purpose? “Hell, yes,” he says. “This company is not stupid.”
Here's a link to the article, they tend to be available free for a week before going behind the pay for it firewall (and registration may be required, too):
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/18/magazine/18Toyota.t.html
out an I4 HH with about 220HP. 220HP would be enough
for 0-60 under 10 sec even in this heavier vehicle."
I agree. I would consider buying one if it was equipped with this type of hybrid system. The Hybrid Camry (which I own) has more power than I will ever need. So far it runs flawlessly. Maybe Toyota will include it their new crossover vehicle, to be released in 2008.
If I find an answere, I will update this.
Would prefer a plug in capability, and use battery only for x number of miles, then use the ICE.
What IS really interesting is the EV button that you can see in the PICTURES section... does this mean there is an all electric mode that you can put the high Hy in?
Its also nice that they put in a standard LCD for showing hybrid system status... I was really irritated that my 2007 HiHy didn't have the nice display like our Prius, and there was no way I was going to pay for an over-priced Nav system to see system status. (but don't get me wrong, I LOVE this car, its absolutely great).
The keyless start is also something that is just great... its the favorite feature in my Prius.
Anyone have any idea what the EV switch is all about?
Weight class between the RXh/HLh and the Prius and a larger, higher HP Atkinson Cycle I4.
Escape and Mariner owners cannot find a way, seemingly, to get decent FE, especially in the wintertime.
As indicated by Ford's hybrid expereince Toyota simply had too many design constants in trying to upscale the Prius hybrid synergy design to some of the size and weight class of the RXh/HLh.
That catalytic converter had to be kept to within its operational level, ~800F, and that's not a simple matter when the heat source is a heat stingy highly fuel economical Atkinson cycle engine.
I posted this link on the "plug in" discussion but it is appropriate to this comment - a piece from Toyota engineers on the design philosophy related to plug in - and why they're not ready for prime time - and charge management:
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2007/winter/plugin.html
As a user of laptops (including the one I am writing this on) and professional video equipment dependent on batteries, this design philosophy for a vehicle makes a lot of sense. I use the laptop constantly, with many full charge and down to a minute of battery life discharges, and I pretty much end up with 12-18 month cycles. Similar with camera batteries (though the newest lithium-ions on our current cameras have much better power management and _should_ last much longer). At $120 a piece for a laptop battery that's not too painful (but I still have several boxes full of useless batteries that should be recycled some day), but the battery pack in our HH, may it last the life of the vehicle.
Sounds like your HH has a problem that higher grade fuel won't help. If you look back through this list you'll find most all experiences are more like ours than yours. Have you tried another dealer/service department? The batteries and motors are all controlled by computers, so their being "normal" really doesn't say much. But this definitely doesn't sound right, especially since what I've heard of NY cabbie experiences with hybrids (like this article from the Sun: http://www.nysun.com/article/47923?page_no=1 - see the end of the article for the mileage experience/savings).
Toyota must have "heard" you loud and clear!
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2007/winter/concept.html?url=readmo- - - re
I have never been one for speed but our HH has really got me hooked on its performance. It kills our V8 Chevy hands down in terms of acceleration, comfort and just pure driving joy. The '08 HH is attractive but I will wait for this turbocharge version. Then I will take it to Nevada or AZ where there is open road with few cars and let her rip!
Just for kicks I tried to duplicate what would have been a 'typical' commute in the past but using my Prius now. It was interesting.
This would be with a fully warmed up vehicle
Heavy but moving traffic down I95 to the Bruckner to the Triboro... ~50 mpg
Triboro to the FDR and down the FDR to 71st moving, but very slowly, with some stoppages, at 10-25 mph... 60-65 mpg
ZigZagging across town from York down to 7th and 56th, catching every crosstown light... 23-30 mpg
Moving steadily downtown along 7th to the Holland Tunnel at about 20 mpg... 65-85 mpg
This is about what I would have hoped for excepted I was pretty surprised about the very low values zigzaging across town from stop light to stop light.
Also I notice that after a year you have about 8000 miles on yours meaning you have a lot of shortish trips of 10-15 min.
So the combination of short trips ( likely ), stop and go driving and winter weather could drive your personal fuel economy from say 28 mpg where it should be to the high teens.
Here are some factors that effect your personal FE results:
Factors affecting your FE ( and everyone else's also, btw ) in decending order of importance...
1) Towing anything is a huge penalty possibly as much as a 50% reduction in FE
2) Lots of weight in the vehicle, passengers cargo etc. ( EPA tests are done empty ) deduct up to 20% from your 'Norm'
3) Short trips under 10 min - deduct 20% from your 'Norm'
4) Snow, Rain, sleet - deduct 15%
5) Strong head wind - deduct 10%
6) Cold weather - deduct 5 - 10%
7) High speed driving 0ver 70 mph - deduct 5 - 10%
8) Many starts from a dead stop ( going from stop sign to stop sign to stop sign ) - deduct 5 - 10%
9) Terrain - fortunately 'what goes up..' usually this balances out on a RT
10) Winter fuel - deduct 2 - 5%
11) Low tire pressure - ? How low
Now these are cumulative, so short trips with a lot of stops ( -20% )( -5% ) in winter ( -7% ) on slick pavement ( -15% ) can result in as much as a 40 - 50% loss from your personal 'Norm'.
I'd ignore the mechanics advice and go to the EPA's website or Toyota's website for tips. Most mechanics know how to rebuild and do the maintenance on a vehicle but they have very little information on how one, especially the hybrid system, operates.
"..The Power Trip begins..."
Could that statement mean anything other than to attract the "boy-racer" or people with "boy-racer" mentalities?
Doesn't the GS hybrid and the upcoming LS hybrid alreadly address that market segment quite adequately??
You should note here that the HH uses NiMH batteries, while the laptops generally use Li Ion batteries, which have about 500 full recharge cycles in them, from my own laptop experience.
I would also love to see this in a Tundra type full size pick-up too. It will replace our gas-engine V8 and let us do all our ranch work like towing heavy trailers. From a 10-mpg Chevy V8 to a 35-MPG Hybrid truck, that will be really something.
We can always hope......
is keep a larger battery within the sweet spot. So
now we have a 1.5 Kwh battery going bettween 30-70%
for an EV range of 1-2 miles. Instead we can have
a 12 kwh battery operating between 30-70% for a range of
15-20 miles.
Moreover what about the RAV4 EVs that have 120 mile
range and some still running on original batteries from
1998? Has this technology degraded over time?
Let's see, that is a factor of about 8X? Does that mean the new battery would be eight times larger, and eight times heavier?
http://www.gaepd.org/Files_PDF/forms/apb/levzev_fs.pdf
Does any data exist supporting that the Highlander is a low emission vehicle, despite being a hibrid?
The effect of this determination is to prevent Georgia residents owning any hybrid from claiming a "Low Emission Vehicle" tax credit against their state income taxes.
The law creating this credit only requires that it be a "low emissions" vehicle.
http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2003_04/fulltext/hb535.htm
Maybe this is also an issue in some other states.
It is classified by the US EPA as a "US EPA Certified SmartWay" automobile.
Its non-CA emission is rated 9/10 (2WD) or 8/10 (4WD) outside of CA.
Please check the following EPA link:
http://epa.gov/greenvehicles/suv-07.htm#med
For comparison, the Prius also meets Federal Tier 2/Bin 3 standard. It is rated AT-PZEV in California, an extremely low-emission vehicle.
I did not bother reading the Georgia legislation because it smells like state politics is trumping science. There is a movement to kill two birds with one stone and that is to save American car manufacturers by emphasizing E85 based on corn while discouraging the public from buying gas-electric hybrids from "foreign" manufacturers.
I have been following this "movement" for about a year since GM, Ford and Chrysler got in trouble selling giant gas guzzlers. Just like they bought and killed the transit system in southern CA, they are now trying to muscle in by appealing to patriotism and E85.
Georgia's agricultural interests are increasing corn production to meet E85 demand. I am too lazy to do more research on this because the politics is very clear. The following link is an easy result from a simple Google search:
http://www.agobservatory.org/headlines.cfm?refid=97414
I feel bad for Georgia residents who want to reap the benefits of gas-electric hybrid. In such cases, the simplest way is vote with your pocket. If you cannot use a smaller car and must get a car the size of a Highlander, then there is no reason not to buy the HiHy, tax-break or not. Last I looked, CA is still the leader in energy conservation and emission control and management
http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/E85Paper0107.pdf
We in California get a lot of smog and we are very aware of emission issues. I believe that the best interim solution (before hydrogen) is actually a plug-in gas-electric hybrid. If the new 2009 or 2010 HH can run for 30 miles at 55-MPH or 60-MPH on an electric charge, and CA then pioneers a hybrid slow lane that allows hybrids to run at 55 to 60 on our freeways, we will significantly cut emission for at least the SF Bay region.
Will I buy a gas-electric HH or a flexfuel HH? There is no comparison, the gas-electric hybrid always wins. Will I buy a flexfuel-electric HH over a gas-electric HH? No, not until the toxin issue is resolved. What is the point of introducing yet more toxic gas into the air we breath when we already have benzene to deal with?
There is much to read and learn regarding future of E85 and how it may help cars like the HH. Georgia is either not yet catching up to the current trend or is catering only to economic and political interests in the state. I would love to see Georgia publish its definition of "low emission" and a clear car by car study that compares emission level.
If there is a different thread for this, please let me know.
If you want a 4 cyl. hybrid they have the Camry.
Consider this: a 4 cyl. All Wheel Drive RAV 4 gets 1 mpg better than Saturn's TWO WHEEL Drive Greenline Hybrid which also doesn't have VSC.
Maybe a 4 cyl. RAV 4 Hybrid down the road.
Toyota Lexus continues to offer hybrids with outstanding performance. Soon the Lexus flagship will offer a V8 hybrid.
BTW, the 2008 Highlander Hybrid's hardware and VDIM are almost identical to the power trains in the '06 version.
For the second year in a row, the '06 Hh is Consumer Reports TOP pick for a mid sized SUV.
"Performance Hybrids", comment reserved here... :surprise:
If we want the SUV to do meaningful work, 5000-lb towing is the minimum requirement. A 2-horse trailer weighs at least 2500-lbs without animals. Add two horses and we are getting close to 4500 lbs or 4700 lbs. To have enough power to do this work, it also will have impressive performance characteristics. I see the '08 HH as the first hybrid that truly replaces a V8. The '06 HH is just a V8 wannabe.
The performane that comes with the bigger engine is just a side-benefit. If it were a normal V8, its mileage will likely be in the 14-mpg range. My guess is this version will get may be 24-mpg in real-life driving unless they have done something to the on-board S/W and batteries to favor better electric assistance.
The online info about the '08 is confusing but I am sure it is *not* only 270-hp. The V6 gas engine is already 270-hp according the spec. If Toyota does not detune the V6 as it did in our '06 HH, and we add in the electric motors, we may be looking at something producing over 300-hp when it finally releases.
The question now is with a larger gas engine to do a lot more meaningful work, how much will the gas mileage suffer? Will it return at least 25-mpg in normal use? or will it return only 20-mpg?
For what we do with our SUV, we may just trade in the '06 for the '08 if it can truly tow 5000 lbs and get a new EPA mileage of at least 28-mpg combined. Then I know we can get around 24-25 mpg in real life.
You have no clue how this will help us with what we do. Instead of a V8 returning around 10-MPG when towing, we can likely get 20-mpg out of the '08 HH towing the same load. That is a 100% improvement in gas mileage. Until they come out with a hydrogen drive, or a plug-in, I will take the '08 HH over a traditional V8.
Let's hope it is capable of true V8 workload and still gets 25-mpg (20+ towing) in real life.
Maybe 00.01%
And how many are ONLY FWD, more than half?
Sounds to me as if you're in need of a supercharged Chevy Suburban.
Let us know how it turns out. I am pretty sure that an HH towing 5000 lbs will get around 16 MPG. You would be using the ICE all the time. Also, maximum towing capability does not mean the vehicle is optimized for such use. If one tows that load a lot it will stress the vehicle; get a dedicated body-on-frame vehicle for frequent towing.
Of course, that beats 10-12 MPG with a larger SUV or truck. But there is no getting past physics. :sick:
First, emission. Hybrids have better emission (SULEV and SULEV II). In actual use, after years of breathing gas and diesel fumes working around our trucks, we are not going back.
Second, use of available tools. We buy what is available and meets our needs. If HH were not available, a SupChrg type vehicle will be of great interest. With the '08 HH able to handle V8 work, we will give it a good look.
Third, from a truck user's perspective, we see SUV's as tough working vehicles, not a van-substitute. We have a Sienna for that. This is why my tilt on the HH is slightly different than most. I do care about emission and gas mileage but having sufficient power to do work is also important.
For most families, I would agree that a little I4 with SuperCharger or Turnocharger will do nicely. The closest to off-road such families will do is may be a drive over maintained dirt-road to a trail-head once a year or a few trips on plowed road to the snow.
Then there is the 0.01% of us who actually do use our trucks and SUV's to the max. We care a bit more about having the right power to do work. As long as Toyota puts out a car we can use, we are going to look at it. Call us serious early-adapters
This is exactly my profile. Just want a substitute from a boring, large minivan that looks better and gives stellar mpg. Basically a 7-8 passenger AWD vehicle that can do very limited offroading if needed as you described above. If this
is the requirement for most families that look at the
Highlander is beats me why Toyota is catering more to
the .01% of consumers. A turbo charged I4 hybrid will do just fine and get 35 mpg. This is just frustating.
I believe all of us are speaking the same language, there really is no debate. If Toyota had offered two engine choices, we will not be having this discussion at all. It will satisfy 99% of owners.
I must admit that I did not want to buy our '06 HH at first. I looked down on it as neither a real SUV nor a real van. My wife forced my hands and even then, I was rather unhappy we paid so much for just emission and gas mileage. After using it on our ranch roads, I have completely changed my mind. The '06 HH is very versatile and capable even though it is not a real V8 replacement. The car has real "guts" behind its refined electronics. This is the only reason we would even consider the '08 HH as a possible workhorse.
Oh well, I am just speculating and wishing, best to wait until the '08 HH hit the dealer lot.