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Comments
Add some Sienna features for family space use: Removeable Captain chair options.
Add some power: Chevy Tahoe Hybrid; Lexus RX 400HP; Dodge Durango HEV HEMI; Chrysler Aspen HEV HEMI
How far can the Camry Hybrid travel before turning on the gas engine in ideal conditions? What about the Prius??
a family vehicle though really does need an mp3, bluetooth and navigation. these items are no longer extravagant expenditures but necessary safety precautions especially when driving long distances with children. but you can't put your children in a substandard hybrid vehicle for the sake of these options either. if leasing the highlander hybrid ltd which comes fully equipped is too costly, lease the regular hybrid highlander (V6, w/ 3rd row seating & AWD) and add just the options you need. the end of lease buy out on any of the lexus or toyota hybrids is still cheaper than what the vehicles will be selling for in three years off a lot, if you can even find one! what about the exterior of the 08 highlander hybrid? is it going to begin to look more like the lexus rx 400h?
I have driven a relative's Prius many times, know nothing about the Camry Hybrid, owns the '06 HH.
My comment was about the '06 HH turning on the gas engine for about 30 seconds whenever we turn on the car. If engine is already hot, it will shut off earlier or when it is winter cold, it will run longer. Many of us wish it would stay OFF until we really need the gas engine.
The '08 model seems to have done away with this problem by being able to run on electric-only when you first start the engine. As long as you drive at 25-MPH or lower and there is enough battery charge to push the car along. THat is a nice feature.
Right, but how far do you think you can go on electric-only? And then how does this compare to the Camry Hybrid and Prius (distance-wise). One can only assume that the Prius can travel much further than the TCH which can go further than the HH. How far for each, specifically, would very worthwhile to know.
On cold days the ICE runs longer because it has more work to do.
After the initial 'charge up' by the ICE one could drive at a very slow speed for quite a long time;e.g driving around a shopping mall parking lot looking for a space or rolling through your residential neighborhood at <20 mph.
Well after that long rant ( with which I agree given present technology ) what I wrote is still accurate based on my current 2005 Prius. To be precise when I wrote.."one could drive at a very slow speed for quite a long time" I wasn't talking about miles and miles I was talking more about a half mile to a mile. I do it every evening on the way home, with the out-of-the-box technology currently in the Prius.
When we have a full charge (GREEN), and we are on a flat road, and our starting speed is around 45-MPH. I can nurse the car on electric-only for about 1.3+ mile if I am willing to let the speed drop to around 39-MPH. This is the technique we use to maximize mileage. I believe I can make it go as far as 1.5+ mile if we let the speed slowly drop to 35-MPH but unfortunately, at about the 1.4 mile mark is a stop sign.
Momentum at 45-MPH helps to push the car along already and I just boost it with a gentle pressure on the gas pedal to bring in just enough battery power to keep it rolling.
Can the 2008 do the same? I believe it can given Toyota has not announced that it is changing anything except may be the software and the batteries.
Another thing to remember is that full-electric only run is **NOT** necessary to get good mileage. Careful management of speed and driving slower really helps. We have easily achieved 28 MPG so far. 29 MPG once this Summer and 31+ MPG intermediate many times. If not for a steep driveway and hills around here, I think we could easily average 30-MPG in the summer.
Hybrid technology is still new and it reminds me of the old days when we first took to the air. A pilot has to manage a whole host of things in addition to flying the airplane. Same for the HH.
Sorry, too long winded already
Anyway, your questions are good ones but may not be applicable to current version of gas-electric hybrids.
There is *NO* clear cut lenght measurements for each car because it depends on many factors. Terrain? Wind? tire pressure? traffic condition? driving techniques? load in the car? speed?
The best I can tell you is to read down to my post in response to stevegold. I shared my experience with how far I can push our HH on full-electric.
I believe we have all the technology necessary to fully automate the HH to run in strict economy mode. The problem is that no one has put together the technology to do all that.
For example, I would love to see use of GPS not just for guidance but for gas savings. Instead of dumbly accelerate to maintain a set speed whenever it hits a little hump on the road, the car can decide how much power to use, base on speed, load and wind resistance and elevation data from GPS. It need not maintain a set speed but to allow variations of up to +5/-5 MPH or as high as +10/-10 MPH in favor of gas mileage. We often drive over little hump and slight speed variations is not a big deal.
The look-ahead collision avoidance detection system can also be used to set safe speed that favors gas economy. Instead of detect and warn, why not detect and adjust accordingly?
The point is that for now, how far you can push a hybrid on full electric requires some flexibility and management on the part of the driver. For someone who truly enjoys driving, it is fun. For someone who just wants to drive, it can be a chore.
On a more related note - what do the "EV" and "ECON" buttons that are found adjacent to the cupholder in the center console in the pics of the 2008 HH do? They don't appear to be seen in any pics of the 2007 HH. Any ideas??
anyway.
Toyota warranties the battery system for 100K miles.. there's no need or advantage to buying an extended warranty on a Toyota Hybrid for the batteries.
Essentially you can rest assured that the battery pack will outlive your interest in that specific vehicle ( 12-15-18 years ? ).
Answer to your first concern. There are a very few isolated instances of batteries having been replaced but not due to failure. All of them to my knowledge have been done under warranty costing the owner nothing. If you ask a Toyota parts store what the cost is the typical answer is $3000 + labor. That's retail. Most stores have an idea because they've had to replace them for vehicles that had to be repaired due to accidents.
Look at www.toyota.com to see the styling of the new '08.
The new HH will be here in late Sept/Oct. The current model is dated certainly since it first came out in 2002. The same trim levels will be on both models with the same drivetrain 3.3L + HSD.
The next Prius with a new power system will be launched in Oct 2008 as a 2009 model. It's expected to utilize Li-Ion batteries being smaller, lighter and more powerful with a new ICE linkage possibly. And what else???
I'd expect the HH and TCH to overlap this by a year or two each before the siblings also get the updated hybrid power system from the Prius.
Again, I now I am giving up something, but want to understand how much, and I also want to be certain that the HH can handle Colorado winters in the mountain environment where I live (9500 feet elevation).
On another matter, the dealer said that really one should not use B on the Prius in city driving. I use it all the time as I approach a stop sign or light. Is it somehow inefficient to do so: that is, I save on brakes, but maybe it is causing wear and tear on the "transmission"? Should I use it only on steep hills?
I don't know how good the AWD system is on the HH but I suspect it is "adequate" for most situations, and a lot of how good it will do in snow will be completely determined by what tires you put on it.
I always run dedicated snow tires on my AWD cars in CO as I live above 6,000 feet and we get a bit more here.
If you have a good AWD system and good snow tires you should get through nearly all situations that don't require "heroic measures" such as trying to brave 30+ inch snow drifts, etc.
I have no experience with ice. We do use snow tires in winter. We also replaced the cheapy squishy van stock tires with truck tires. Good SUV tires will do well too.
Plowed snowy paved road is not a problem. With real-life snow tires (Snow flake on Mtn), it is secure. We have not taken it over deep snow. Patches of 4-inch deep slush on solid base rocky surface is not a problem. Fresh 4-6 inch powdery stuff over solid base rocky surface is OK too. Cuts right through those. For muddy base, please read below.
If you encounter a situation that makes you want to get out to lock the differential, then it is beyond what the HH can handle. As you mentioned, it is not a true 4x4. So when in doubt, we err on the safe side.
On rough dry ranch road where there is dirt, rocks, deep ruts and such, it is no problem. We stack rocks into the ruts or go around. In one place, we have to crawl along at an angle with one side along a slope and no problem.
In muddy soft patches, we use extreme caution. The only mud patch we will drive the HH over must meet two conditions: the mud patch must be small enough to take no more than two tires and the mud depth should not swallow the tire to the rim before fairly solid ground. We also carry along boards and #2 base in case we do get stuck.
There is a difference between rainy wet dirt road and real-life mud patches. Dirt road gets wet and sticky but only in the top two or three inches. The HH has no trouble as long as you have truck tires and go careful. A real mud hole can sink as deep as 10 inches or swallow my ankle, that can get the car stuck. Even our Chevy 4x4 can have trouble with those.
Hope such experiences are useful to you.
Yes the dealer was correct. The B is there for only downhill driving so as to avoid having to ride the brakes down a steep grade. When riding the brakes downhill one could send too much Regen back to the battery with no chance to discharge it until reaching the bottom. The HSD system never wants the battery to reach full charge nor anything below 30%. Riding the brakes downhill could overcharge the battery.
NOw using B in the city won't accomplish much. The HSD computer optimizes the charging and discharging between 40% and 80% so trying to 'help' it out by using the B to charge quicker may only get it to discharge faster.
Use of engine compression braking will significantly reduce the level of regenerative braking available for recharging the hybrid battery. Additionally the use of regenerative braking, NOT REAL BRAKING, extends the life of the brake pads dramatically so the use of "B" for this reason is actually counter-productive.
In a nutshell I expect you will be so super disappointed about in the AWD capability of the RXh you will abandon it altogether for winter use.
Do some serious research.
The hybrid drive control system will start using actual braking long before the hybrid battery starts reaching a point of over-charging.
From a physics perspective this seems logical: the energy of the falling car is used in engine-compression braking so there is less energy to charge the battery. But is "significantly" correct? My one experiment is the following:
My house is 750 feet and 2 miles above town. So when I leave my driveway I can go down the (paved) hill in DRIVE, touching the brake occasionally on the way down; or I can go all the way down in B. All I can do is count the bars as they increase from, typically, 2 bars at start to 6 at the bottom. I have detected no difference in the final charge having done this experiment 4 or 5 times in each mode. This is not very conclusive, but appears to argue against the "significantly".
Also, going down to Denver takes me from 11000 feet to 5000 feet (in 45 miles). The charge level is full green most of the last half and it seems clear (as wwest says) that there is some method to prevent overcharging that is independent of whether I am in B or not.
Back to wwest's bottom line: Using B reduces charging efficiency "significantly" and saves brake pads "dramatically". This is what he must mean by "counterproductive". But my read of these two phenomena is that one must understand the exact tradeoff to know how to drive. Down a big hill: Everyone says use B (though the reasons given have differed -- is there not even consensus on this point?). Coming to a stop sign or stop light on flat ground? I am still unclear.
As for "serious research" my best bet surely is to find users in a similar situation, which I am trying to do. A point of agreement is that tires are key. One other point that snow users surely know is that reverse is very weak in the Prius (electric only), so that one must be careful how one parks in a snowy, non-flat area. The Highlander is also surely electric-only in reverse, but the extra HP might help.
"B" does not work well when car is beyond 60-MPH. We normally coast down to 60 before shifting into "B". Doing so at a higher speed is risky.
"B" does not work well on long steep downhill when car keeps shooting up beyond 60-MPH. We have to use the brakes. This is the one time I wish the HH has something like a "lower" gear.
On downhill, we use "B" for slowing more than for charging.
"B" works fine on city streets to slow the car for turns or stops. We use it all the time as though it is a "stick shift".
"B" is NOT very efficient for charging the batteries at speed below 40-MPH, streets or freeways. But every little bit helps at low speed when use of brakes is impractical.
"B" is usable for charging when the HH can slow from 45-MPH down to lower speed or to a full stop.
For lower speed charging, the most effective is slow long braking or long coasting from 45-MPH.
We have not noticed anything bad using the "B" mode as we do. Mileage does not seem to suffer much, car runs fine. Actually, having the batteries in green more often has helped our mileage because the battery helps to get rolling on city streets before kicking in the ICE. The battery can also boost the ICE during cruising at higher speed.
All in all, not bad. I do wish there is some sort of real-life lower-gear mode for slowing the car physically on long downhill. I also hope the '09 or '10 version can have more efficient charging so the battery can be green more often and kicks in more often to help the ICE along. We may be able to get up to 35-MPG or 40-MPG.
"one should not use "B" on the Prius for city driving..."
"city driving"
I remain with little doubt that the use of "B" in city driving and/or for slowing and stopping, will DRAMATICALLY reduce the level of regenerative braking available for re-charging the hybrid battery.
Downhill is yet another matter. In that case I'm quite sure that once, if, the hybrid battery is (almost) fully charged the control system will automatically switch to the use of friction braking pretty much exclusively. On a long curving downhill run that might very well result in the brakes overheating and fading, failing.
So in that circumstance it is clearly advisable to use the "B" mode provided we're dealing with a reasonably high traction roadbed. Keep in mind that the anti-lock system cannot overcome braking due to engine compression and thereby keep the front wheels rotating just enough to maintain directional control.
We all know, or certainly should know, that engine compression braking, or for that matter any type of braking, regenerative included, at the front wheels that compromises directional control and/or defeats the anti-lock functionality can potentially be hazardous.
That, safety, is the core value in the US patent recently granted to Ford on this matter.
As for "serious research"....
Yes, tires are "key", but secondary to another more important issue, FWD vs RWD. It is extremely important, first and foremost, that the front tires' roadbed traction coefficient be dedicated to directional control, or at least as much of it as is concieveably possible when circumstances dictate.
And keep in mind that once the Ford patent is licensed and implemented across the industry, as IMMHO it certainly will be, the level of regenerative braking available for FWD or front torque biased AWDs during wintertime cold weather conditions, ~35F and below, will be "significantly" reduced.
"B" mode should NEVER be used except to prevent brake fading or failure due to prolonged, extended, use of friction braking.
The only reasonable exception would be if the hybrid battery is already at or near a full charge level. Come to think about it shouldn't the hybrid control system, logically, switch to "B" mode anytime the brakes are applied and the hybrid battery is near a full charge?
(But then, like in the Ford patent, it would need to switch it "out" of "B" mode, along with regenerative braking, if ABS were to activate.)
Or is that already being done "behind our backs", without our knowledge, like A/C use in defrost/defog/demist mode?
One subtle safety point is that B does not turn the brake lights on. In theory it should, to warn the driver behind. (I think I checked this once). So if wwest is right that at some point friction braking gets automatically turned on (in the Highlander) one wonders if the brake light goes on?
The biggest hill around here is from Eisenhower Tunnel to Silverthorne (11150 to 8750) in 7 miles. Charging becomes all green after a few miles. I have never sensed any mechanical braking in the Prius on this stretch, but I am aware that the Highlander controls are much more sophisticated. Whenever the VSC does anything on the Prius a warning squiggle lights up. One would hope the same would be true of the HH...
Like cdptrap I have used B (Prius) in city driving all the time and have not noticed any problems, though I wonder about wear on the mechanism because of using it in situations where it is more or less irrelevant.
As for what wwest said, it was:
"Use of engine compression braking will significantly reduce the level of regenerative braking available for recharging the hybrid battery. Additionally the use of regenerative braking, NOT REAL BRAKING, extends the life of the brake pads dramatically so the use of "B" for this reason is actually counter-productive."
As noted, I see nothing wrong in this assertion (except my own somewhat vague experiment that indicated no recharge difference when using B or not). But it gives little guidance: one can optimize recharge [by not using B] or optimize brake-wear-savings [by using B at every opportunity]. But you can't do both so one must decide in each context... I have been following the strategy of cdptrap in the city (always use B when slowing). I also have 30000 mi on the Prius.
The comment about front-wheel braking is helpful, and indicates that, if one finds oneself going too fast in an icy/snowy situation, one should use the brake (not
By the way, the B on the Prius is very easy to use. On the '07 Highlander it is on the stick, and one must press a button to go into it. I found that odd -- I suppose it is to stop people from shifting into it inadvertently, but on the test drive I missed the smoothness of the Prius B-shift mechanism.
As for A/C use: On the Prius it took me a few days to figure it out but I think when the A/C setting is turned off then A/C is not being used. That is, I didn't see this as a "behind-the-back" thing, just something I had to pay attention to and turn off when it was inappropriate. Or are you saying that even when A/C button is off, if defrost is on then A/C is being used. (Again, my experience here is with Prius controls, not HH).
My fault...
" I had never considered that the friction brakes would/could be activated automatically."
The context I intended was that if you apply foot pressure to the brake pedal and the hybrid battery is not fully charged the initial braking will be primarily via regeneration. On the other hand if the hybrid battery is already "fully" charged the system will go immediately to friction braking only. If you should apply HEAVY foot pressure to the brake pedal the control system will start bringing friction braking into the "mix". Lead-footed braking will almost always result in such a high level of friction braking that nothing will be "left" over for regeneration.
But, on yet another "hand".
VSC or TC, or VSC/Trac combined, will automatically apply friction braking to maintain stability or prevent wheelspin/slip, and even "un-apply" friction and/or regenerative braking at individual corners to maintain stability.
"..or optimize brake-wear-savings [by using B at every opportunity].."
I suspect hybrid vehicle brake pads already yield quite higher mileage service such that the replacement cost savings from the use of "B" would be miniscule and therefore needless. Especially considering the loss in FE due to the inability to use that braking energy to recharge the hybrid battery.
Again, the only appropriate use of "B" is to prevent brake overheating and possible fading on a long curving downhill run.
"icy/snowy situation"
Back in my days in MT wintertime I often resorted to the e-brake, parking brake, slightly, judiously applied, to "anchor" the rear of the car on a slippery downhill slope.
A/C in defrost/defog/demist mode..
Unless you have had the dealer set the c-best option to other than the factory default the A/C compressor will always run automatically, with no indication to you, in "3D" mode.
But the article points out another cute B-use that some of us have probably stumbled into.
"Often you will pull up at a stop light that has just changed. In some suburban areas this may entail a wait of several minutes, as the lights cycle through various simultaneous or sequential left turns, cross traffic, pedestrians, etc. If the gasoline engine is running when you approached the stop it will take the better part of a minute before the computer recognizes the situation and shuts off the engine. There is a trick to getting the engine to shut off promptly. If you approached the stop in B (engine assist braking), you may then when stopped with the brake on, command D (drive) - the engine will stop immediately - at least in 2004 US versions."
I have noticed this too: B will cause the ICE to shut down sometimes even when one is already stopped at a stop light and the ICE is running.
Assuming the power meter is a reliable indicator of charging activities taking place;
Assuming the power meter needle dipping into the blue region indicates charging;
Assuming that the needle dipping lower implies better charging performance than when the needle is higher
The "B" mode from 40-45 MPH will send the needle dipping to the top of the blue region.
The "D" mode from 40-45 MPH keeps the needle sitting just below middle of the zebra region.
Regardless of speed, the "B" mode brings the needle lower than the "D" mode until speed reaches 20-MPH. At 20, both modes have the needle in the same area.
If the needle is simply indicating lack of power output then my theory above falls apart and flat on its face. But if the needle is also an indication of how much charging is happening, then it seems "B" works better than "D" down to 20-MPH on the '06 HH. Will this be the same for the '08? Don't know but it should be as good or better.
When we step on the brakes though, that needle sinks right into blue, so nothing beats using the brakes. Unfortunately, one cannot brake 300-ft away from a stop but one can use "B"
Happy "B"-ing
I want to add to that line.... Below 20 MPH (or at any speed), in B mode you can feel a dragging effect when you release the gas as if the e-brakes are partially engaged or as if a stick shift is selected into a lower gear.
md is correct. You get the best mileage by using the battery to run the electric engine. So when you run down the battery, you have been using the electric motor. A car this sophisticated will charge the battery when it is needed. The key to getting good mileage is fairly simple and toyota should have some instruction for this when you but a $35,000 car. Accelerate to your desired speed fairly quickly (or fast), LET OFF THE GAS PEDAL COMPLETELY, and touch it again gently to go on electric alone. It works best below 40 mph and at fairly steady speeds. It will work at highway speeds if you are going slightly downhill. After letting up on the accelerator completely, just touch it until your power gauge shows the arrow pointing to the wheels and no gas engine is visible. I have been driving for over 35 years and this style was very difficult to learn. But it was worth it. Search this forum for pulse and glide see what you find. Good Luck.
RAG
In most residential areas the max speed limit is 25 mph so this isn't particularly difficult to do.
In the residential streets the vehicle will maintain about 20 mph with no input at all except to maintain speed around corners, but it's all electric.
Hybrid Limited US$34,610 (C$37,032) C$56,670
Hybrid US$32,490 (C$34,764) C$44,850
Figues in brackets are exchange rate conversion of U.S. price. Plus in US$ the difference from Camry Hydrid to Highlander Hybrid is US$6,700 whereas in Canada it is C$12,850. IS it possible to buy in the U.S. and bring a car to Canada?
But overall, I'd have to say either your government is adding additional tariffs to imported cars, the price is including your insurance or something like that, the Toyota distributor is marking up the vehicle rather dramatically (middle men distributors often try to get 20 to 30% GM on the products they distribute), or the car market in Canada is just not as competitive therefore there is widespread price gouging going on.
Its a similar situation to what was going on not too long ago in England. The exact same car would cost 50% more in England than in Europe... even with right hand drive... and it wasn't until companies started making a business of exporting English spec cars to the UK from France that the British car dealers got wise to the practice and started competing.
My suggestion is to check with your government over taxes and duties involved in importing a car yourself, and hop across the border and save yourself some money. Of course Toyota may not honor the warranty for a car that is imported into Canada, so you might want to contact Toyota about that, but given how incredibly reliable Toyotas are, I think that's a small risk to take if it means you'll be saving almost C $20K.
Where are all the NAFTA benefits we were all promised? Crazy huh?
Let us know what you end up doing, and share with us any more info as it becomes available. Global pricing is an interesting issue, especially since you have the same access all the car websites that we do!