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Comments
Its VDIM is probably the best VSC/Traction program out there.
The Escapes are making great Taxis in New York - London PD tested the hybrid Lexus SUV for police work.
Drive a Hh on a freeway, then an Escape.
Nope, not for another couple of years (on this lease). I'm actually hoping that Honda has worked out the details on their new CARB compliant emissions for the diesel, in which case I will be in the market for a CR-V with 2.x liter diesel. However, I will consider all the options at that time...
Post a link that supports your statement - you can't.
'08 Hh's drivetrain is virtually identical to mine. Your statement about a big change and the '08 being the real deal is nuts. The interior and exterior are changing, the VDIM and hybrid systems are the same.
Post a link that supports your statement - you can't."
According to Toyota, there are changes to the powerplant, though the below does not specifically say that the Hybrid gets the 3.5L engine - only that the HSD has been "refined". I suspect that they have upped the size of the electric motor output and retained the 3.3. 500 lbs heavier? Yikes!
----snippit ----------
When Highlander arrives in July, it will be offered in Base, Sport and Limited
grades. All three grades will be powered by a new 3.5-liter V6 that delivers an
impressive 270 horsepower -- a 55 horsepower gain over the previous generation’s 3.3-liter engine.
Two months later, the all-new Highlander Hybrid will arrive at dealerships.
Offered in both Base and Limited grades, all Highlander hybrids will feature Toyota’s
advanced VDIM stability system. The system integrates:
- full-time four-wheel drive with intelligence,
- electronic brake and throttle control, with true electronically-controlled active steering.
Highlander’s advanced Hybrid Synergy Drive system has been extensively upgraded and refined for 2008 for both power and economy. The new Highlander gained about 500 pounds, growing significantly in every dimension and receiving extensive body and chassis reinforcement, aimed specifically at achieving bestinclass crash ratings. Not only were engineers able to increase output to 270 net horsepower, they were able to maintain Highlander Hybrid’s impressive fuel
economy at 31 city and 27 highway."
2008 Highlaner Press Release
The next big news for Toyota's hybrid program would be their truck hybrid applications.
A Supercharger that only substitutes for the battery "boost" in freeway use (non-stop-n-go), or city if the batteries are depleted would be an ideal upgrade to the Prius FE tuned synergy drive.
I did not read a lot about the 08 model. I did finally go to the Toyota site and saw the spec saying 270-hp net horse power. So you are right and I was wrong. Now Peace?
The one change that pique our interest is 5000-lb towing. If our '06 is at 268-hp, and the '08 is only 270-hp, I thought they must have done something to change the torque in order to tow 5K instead of just 3.5K.
If Toyota has changed nothing there, then it must be the added weight and size and possibly improved unibody "chasis" and stiffening of hardware in the car. I think a 4200-lb car can tow 5000-lb but I would rather have a 4700-lb car tow 5000-lb. It is a lot more stable at higher speed (55-mph) and over hilly terrain. If the load sways for whatever reason, a 4700-lb car with passengers will be over 5000-lbs, heavier than the load, and is thus less likely to lose control.
Anyway, I was overly focused on the towing. It all depends on the EPA MPG. Like Stevedebei said, it could be as bad as 16-mpg when towing, then we have to think harder.
I also agree with your statement about performance by the way. I told wwest in another forum that Toyota came out with a highlander hybrid Xperimental that uses Turbocharger. Net horse power was something like 310-hp. Even my old bones are rattling for some rumph-rumph. I would take that monster to Nevada or Arizona and let her rip
Good discussion this has been!
Some folks don't know Toyota provides the technology for the Escape Hybrid which I consider a great value and will soon become part of more [going strong in NYC] fleets of taxis in our cities.
What we enjoy about the Hh besides its prowess at hauling skiers, their gear, anywhere in anything but true blizzard conditions, is Interstate cruising.
On some of the bypasses in Eastern Virginia leading to the Outer Banks you can really sail. While the constantly variable trans has takes some getting used to, the rapid swoosh going from 65 to 85 or 90 is amazing. And I'm talking fully loaded and while the Thule Box cuts MPG it does not noticeably affect the powerful acceleration. I'm sure it would lower top speed which I have not approached.
Those coming Lexus V8 hybrids will probably be governor limited. I would love to know how fast one could go before the traction batteries drained down.
The 5K tow limit is very significant - you could haul medium 'pop up' camper with mine. Seeing the mpg of people towing various campers, etc. will be interesting. I camped beside a guy from Fla. that was towing a 19' camper [not a 'pop up'] with a regular Highlander. Seems like he said he got 14-16 towing on the flats. He had AWD.
All the '08 Hh's will have AWD [4WD-i in Toyotaspeak] and continue to make the excellent VDIM standard. The mpg difference was between front and AWD was only 1 mpg.
I'm anxious to know how the truck systems are coming. GM has mild hybrid [only 1 - 2 mpg improvement] that lets the batteries power saws, drills, etc. which is a great feature for contractors.
That new Crew Tundra's interior [out later this year] is LARGE. I owned a '05 Tundra D cab 4WD for 2 years - it was almost unstoppable in any precipitation and the soft cover shielded our gear just fine.
It was also the best beach cruiser for the large off road trail system available on the lower OBX, Rodanthe and points south. Held a boatload of firewood too.
Actually, the article is not clear on this point. It is possible that the 2008 HH uses the 3.5l.
Someone should tell Ford this. According to them, the two systems are different, but because of parallel development (there are only so many ways to design a CVT / full hybrid) Ford had to license some features (and Toyota licensed a couple of Ford features, as I recall). The Escape Hybrid is a ford design, similar in execution to the Toyota HSD.
Licensing is a lot different from using someone else's technology. I would have trusted the Ford design more if they really had just used Toyota tech.
The Nissan Altima hybrid does use Toyota HSD technology.
On some of the bypasses in Eastern Virginia leading to the Outer Banks you can really sail. While the constantly variable trans has takes some getting used to, the rapid swoosh going from 65 to 85 or 90 is amazing. And I'm talking fully loaded and while the Thule Box cuts MPG it does not noticeably affect the powerful acceleration. I'm sure it would lower top speed which I have not approached.
Careful here, I travel this every single day from SE VA to OBX. 62 is safe, 65 is a risk, 70 is 'Yes I would very much like to receive a ticket.' Our NC finest have one single road to patrol. As you know there is one artery from all of the Northeast to OBX.
KDHspyder
Normally return via Raleigh on Fridays before 4 pm to escape their traffic. Rt. 64 in NC is posted 70 mph for a very long stretch.
I 64 from Richmond to Busch Gardens [new coaster this spring] is pretty zoomy.
If only the HH had an I4 option, it would be vastly better than the FEH...
However I am worried about the 2008 HiHy - 500 extra pounds is no joke. It is hard to imagine trying to pull a 5000lb trailer with the new HiHy.
1) MP3 capability in the CD player.
2) Add lighting to the overhead console switches.
3) Add lighting to the mirror switches/controls.
4) Add lighting to the window switches!
5) Find a way to keep the ICE from starting up so easily in slow, stop & go driving.
6) Bigger gas tank. At 23 mpg average, 15-16 gallons won't take you far. Plus, why does the low fuel light come on with almost 3 gallons left in the tank? (Gas tank is supposed to be 17.4 gallons)
16-17MPG city seems very low though. After the initial warmup, try turning off the heat and seeing what happens. Is your engine turning off at street lights? If not, something is wrong.
enjoy,
ljmiii
a happy NYC HiHy owner
Thanks.
-Ryan
As a current Prius owner I'd have guessed you'd have done more varied driving to gauge where the 'sweet spot' is in the Toyota hybrids.
Yes stop and go will regenerate more power to the battery but coasting with a light foot also charges the battery very very well. Actually severe stop and go traffic as in NYC, going across town from say the FDR to 7th Ave. is horrendous on FE. OTOH cruising down B'way or 7th to lower Manhattan at a steady 20-25 mph with only a few lights ( 34th ST ) will allow a Gen 2 Prius driver to get up to 70-80 mpg. I haven't done it in a HH but by extrapolation I'd estimate maybe 35-40 mpg in an HH.
Now going across town in stop and go, catching every light at the major avenues will get a Prius owner maybe 30-35 mpg. It's a huge benefit NOT to have to stop, even if it's just to keep rolling at 5 mph.
What happens is even if I could get moving from a stop using only batteries and then run only on electric, I would soon have to stop. If speed is low, stopping distance is short, there is too little coasting and thus also insufficient braking for regeneration. I will end up using the battery but not putting enough back. So in this situation, frequent short stop and go is actually bad for our HH. We have not been able to locate any "sweet" spot on our HH in these situations.
Stop and go with reasonably long coasting run is the best. The HH seems most efficient at recharging when coasting down from 40-MPH. Whenever possible and legal, we try to hit 40-MPH and then coast. This car can roll a long way.
When we have to drive in 25-35 MPH range,say around city blocks, we try to do the true Prius P&G where there is no regeneration from coasting but also no battery run assist. This is to maintain battery charge until we get somewhere where we have enough distance and speed to recharge. Then we will return to using battery assist.
Another obvious thing we have noticed lately is the benefit of having a full charge (Green) or anywhere from 6 bars and up. Many of you must be doing this already but we could not quite do this before until recently. By maintaing the battery in almost full state, the battery will kick in more frequently to assist even when the ICE is powering the car. At around 40-45 MPH, over mostly flat to gentle rolling roads, the on-board computer is good at alternating between recharging and applying battery power for a long distance. This really helps the MPG. On the same road where we used to get at best a rare 30+ MPG, we can now get consistent 50+ MPG when the battery kicks in and occassionally reaches as high as 70+ MPG by the on-board read-out. My wife's eyes were popping wide when she saw this. As this is a new observation and we still cannot discern a repeatable pattern, there is no way yet to gauge impact on per tank MPG. If someone has been doing this, please do share.
So the more battery power we have, the better it is able to assist. When it drops below 6 bars though, then the assist gets spotty.
Only in comparison to a non-hybrid of equivalent mass, etc.
It would be much better to state more simply that with frequent stops (non-sudden nor panic stops) a hybrid vehicle using regenerative braking will have better FE that an equivalent non-hybrid.
In many cities you can drive right through on a freeway at highway speeds.
That being said, both City and Highway are better than a "non-hybrid of equivalent mass"
I must disagree - to a point. The Toyota system is more efficient in city and stop-n-go traffic if the engine is warm. As many people have noted, short trips simply kill hybrid mileage - the motor has to heat up the catalytic converter, so you end up running the engine all the time. And the HH doesn't have the "thermos" system of the Prius to keep the coolant hot.
I was excited to hear Nissan was coming out with Hybrids, but I read that the Toyota HSD Technology they will be using is not the latest generation that Toyota will have in theirs. I suppose that makes sense from Toyotas standpoint.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/03/26/bush.automakers.ap/index.html
Instead of focusing on FE and lower emission, they are touting only "flex-fuel". It is not that flex-fuel in itself is "bad", it is that the auto companies are using it as a "distraction" so no one has to talke about fuel efficiency and higher miles per gallon.
Funny thing is that if we all switch to Ethanol, we will end up using more fuel for the same mile because ethanol has less energy than gas given the same volume. Soon, we will be importing ethanol from Brazil or we have to import our food from China because we will be growing all our own ethanol. How wonderful!
Replying to: stevedebi (Mar 08, 2007 10:11 am)
"The Nissan Altima hybrid does use Toyota HSD technology"
I was excited to hear Nissan was coming out with Hybrids, but I read that the Toyota HSD Technology they will be using is not the latest generation that Toyota will have in theirs. I suppose that makes sense from Toyotas standpoint."
I doubt if Toyota is still producing the first generation HSD components. I thought the Nissan used the Gen 2 stuff.
Does anyone have a URL for this issue?
This also allows ( requires ) another layer of complexity and another layer of profits.
Consider if the same amount of fossil fuel were used then the oil companies would still get their profits which ADM would of course pass along after doing its processing and adding its profits.
I wonder how I can get myself inserted into this boondoggle equation?
I'd been considering a Highlander, but after my experience with the Ford Escape Hybrid, I'll be back at the dealer with my wife to finalize the deal next week.
1. Instead of CRUISE at set speed, have an option to CRUISE at set power. Just like flying :-), the HH cruises to that power level. I can adjust the speed on an as needed basis. This allows me to save gas without having to constantly adjust speed.
2. Now for some really cool advanced features:
a. Allow speed-limit dial-in.
b. Have a look-ahead CRUISE. This is already in Lexus.
c. Have a look-behind CRUISE.
WHen I CRUISE on set-power, the front detector adjusts speed and power to prevent collision and tailgating as it does today. The rear will detect fast approaching cars so it can warn me but more importantly, when my power is set so low that the car is moving below speed limit, the rear radar will work with the front radar to safely accelerate to safe speed (<= speed limit) if it detects traffic is approaching from the rear.
With this system, I can just set a maximum speed and a desired power level and let the car drive itself
1. Cornering?
RWD if the drive wheels lose traction you'll have a tailspin. In FWD, lose of drive wheel traction = udersteer.
2. Acceleration from sleek road?
RWD, slower due to lighter rear weight resulting to less traction and more tendency to be immobilized, if both sides slips will result to tailspin again.
FWD, drive wheels has better traction due to engine and tranny weight and you can initiate side wall traction by turning the steering. Torque steer is controllable if you can control youself from pushing the gas pedal too far.
3 Stopping?
No difference among AWD, FWD, RWD. It is a function of the brahking system and not the drive system. Unless you are a rally or race driver who wants to take advantage engine braking to aid in slowing down and fine tune your power slides.
Maybe you can elaborate in which specific situation is RWD excels in safety compared to FWD.
For almost ten years now the entire automotive industry has been going through an evolutionary change, trying to alleviate loss of control accidents caused by "inadvertent" engine compression braking while operating on a slippery roadbed.
Automatic transaxles are now being programmed to instantly UPSHIFT upon a full lift-throttle coastdown event. In most of these vehicles if you want a substantial level of engine braking you must manually downshift the transaxle.
You may notice that FWD vehicles equipped with manual transaxles are now seemingly going the way of the Dodo bird. One of the few left in the marketplace will actually rev-match the engine to roadspeed if you fully lift the throttle but fail to depress the clutch pedal.
Yes, the ability to have the "tail wag the dog" via too much "drive" to the rear is unique to RWD. But the nice thing about that is that with RWD you will still have directional control whereas with FWD you are now in God's hands.
An overstearing vehicle leaves the roadbed tail first, an understearing one head-on. Unless the driver of the RWD knows to counterstear with the wheels that are likely to still have traction.
"2. Acceleration from sleek road?"
FWD, hands down..!
Unless I have a 500 lbs of rocks in the rear of my 93 Ford Ranger PU giving it a definite rear weight bias.
But like with AWD/4WD/4X4 this often leads to over-confidence due to lack of "notice" of actual roadbed conditions.
"3. Stopping?"
RWD, hands down.
No engine compression braking on the front wheels, NONE, to interfere with the anti-lock system's ability to keep those front wheels rolling, even ever so slightly, and thereby allow the driver to maintain directional control right down to a full stop.
Think of this, stupid as it might be.
You're driving along in "cruise control" (mental or literal)and the climate is sub-zero. Suddenly you hit a bridge deck that is completely iced over. With RWD you INSTANTLY lose most roadbed traction at those rear wheels and now the tail begins to wag the dog. If the driver is quick enough, a recovery can be made by counter-stearing into the skid.
With FWD what would most drivers do?
Lift the gas pedal INSTINCTIVELY and thereby inadvertently apply engine braking to those front wheels.
And then HANG ON...?
The reason is they claim it is much more stable, predictable, and safer. With ovesteer, the car can easily turn around before the driver can catch it.
Wwest, that is not a theory, that is a fact and it is already an applied science.
To correct understeer, reduce power and the car will go back to it's lane.
To correct oversteer, reduce power, countersteer, if the tail wags to the opposite direction due to overcorrection, you countersteer again to the opposite side. Do the same sequence until the tail stops wagging, that is "if" you are still on the road.
Engine braking is almost non-existent in modern cars with automatic unless you shift to sport mode or do a manual downshift.
I want to know what kind of FWD car are you talking about that has engine braking when lifting the throttle. That is an interesting car you have there.
Compression braking intering braking system? What car are you driving?
Understear is the result of the line of travel of the vehicle not following the direction set by the front, stearing, wheels.
That only happens when there is not enough roadbed traction for the front wheels to "force" lateral movement of the vehicle. And yes, you are correct in that you pointed out one of the most serious flaws of FWD vehicles:
"to correct understear, reduce power"
But only in the case where engine drive torque to the front wheels was a contributing factor in not having enough traction to sustain the lateral forces and the motive forces simultaneously.
"will go back to it's lane"
No, with a little luck it will begin following the path set by the stearing wheels. Staying in it's lane and NOT changing direction is the problem.
"Engine braking is almost non-existent..."
But apparently not quite non-existent enough so as to not interfere with the anti-lock feature's functionality.
About 8-10 years ago almost all automatic transaxles (FWD assumed) would downshift into first gear at about 5 MPH as you coasted down to/for a full stop. Nowadays many of them, Toyota and Lexus especially, upshift into a higher gear at 10-5 MPH as you coast down to a full stop and only downshift into first once the vehicle has fully stopped.
"What car are you driving?"
If you have ever driven on a slippery roadbed without ABS you know that it doesn't take much braking HP, application, to lock your front wheels and lose all directional control as a direct result.
The purpose of ABS, anti-lock braking, is to keep those front wheels rolling, even ever so slightly, all the way down to a final full stop, so you still have directional control.
Obviously if the roadbed is slippery enough even a slight level of engine compression braking will "BRAKE" the front wheels enough that ABS' releasing of hydraulic braking pressure will have no effect.
That's why the Ford technique warranted a patent grant.
I am driving, mostly, a 2001 AWD RX300 and I can attest to the fact that it upshifts during full lift throttle coastdown events at 40-30 MPH and at 10-5 MPH just as is designated in the Lexus shop/repair manuals.
Some even have ABS disable below 5 MPH, and some allow the front brakes to have certain degree of "lock" at lower speed.
I'd say look further and not just at FORD.
Maybe the solution is to just give us the clutch pedal back, not to facilitate gear changes but to de-clutch the driveline in instances of need due to adverse roadbed conditions.
One for the wish list: have a mechanically linked "low" gear for those icy, slippery situations - even if it is only in front when drive. I have had the HH just stop when all the wheels start spinning on an icy hill. Even had to flip the HH around mid-hill and go up the hill in reverse. (I remembered that from growing up in Cleveland and living on a steep hill.)
Since there is no mechanical reverse you were relying on the 75HP rear electric motor and thus you were apparently able to feather the throttle reasonably well.
My google search only turned up the following:
"STEAR Strategic Technologies in Automation and Robotics"