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Comments
I like to thank both of you for educating me on hybrid technology with your interesting technical analyses.
Hi Coguk,
I have emailed and phoned several Honda dealerships including my favorite Honda fleet manager to put my name on their waiting lists for a superb HAH. It will be very expensive. Be sure to plan from $33K to $37K to pay for a super nice HAH with Navigation system (NAV) including sale tax.
My co-worker is very happy with the NAV on his 04 Accord EX V6. Via the NAV, he can order the CD number and track number he wants. Another customer said the song and artist's names appear on her NAV screen. It controls the temperature inside the car and it is smart like a small computer. I recently test drove an Accord V6 with a NAV and it was quite impressive.
I am not sure if Toyota has done a good job to refine the Camry. In 2002, when I test drove a Camry V6 XLE I was too disappointed so I bought an Accord V6 EX to add it up to my awesome collection of 9 Hondas. In term of performance, Camry is not sophisticated as Accord. Honda's know-how and their advanced auto engineering is top notch. As a customer put it, "The Honda's manual transmission shifts like silk or butter". It is not exagerrated at all because I had an 86 Civic and its stick shift worked like...HEAVEN while Camry's stick shift worked like...HELL. When Honda introduces their ROBOT to do the household chores I will buy one immediately. Too tired to clean my toilets and vacuumn my carpets every weekend.
Honda is going to test its jet plane's engine next year. In 2003, Honda built 17 million engines. It was an awesome figure. Honda Inc. is smaller than Toyota Inc. but as far as I recalled Honda's profit/ asset ratio is better than Toyota.
It is right that Honda has not made official announcement about the waiting list for the HAH but as a Honda's loyal customer I already had my name (unofficially) on several waiting lists.
And improvement isn't just to be measured at peak power, because most of the improvement in the new IMA system from engine output has come at "start up" point. From then on, it appears, there is a constant addition of 15 HP to whatever the ICE is capable of.
I'm curious about "the smaller SUV" in the works (Acura RDX) at this point. If it is based off Acura RDX concept, it could be a hybrid only model! And that thing had 60 HP IMA system (two 30 HP electric motors) with 190 HP 2.4/I-4.
How do you really feel about Honda.
all kidding aside I think I read where Honda has never had a losing year financially. that is pretty impressive. If they bring there Diesel Accord to America I may be tempted to buy one...
Huh? You make no sense. We are not talking about electric vehicles, we are talking about HYBRIDS. When comparing hybrids, you can't just look at hp/torque, you also have to look at the difference between the hybrid and the non-hybrid counterpart. By your logic, I can attach bike-like foot pedals to my ferrari and call it the most powerful hybrid ever even if the pedals contribute 0.00000000001% to the performance. Don't make sense, does it.
If you split it into pieces that make up for the hybrid, and the way they work, you wouldn't be comparing hybrid power, rather the idea/process behind them... aka full hybrid versus mild (or assist mode) hybrid.
I am 100% sure I will buy one of the first HAHs with a NAV system in the US this December at any price. I have been driving and using so many Honda's products in my last 40 years including Honda motorcycles 50cc, 90cc, lawn mower, Honda civic, accords I4, V6, etc. All I can say Honda products are superior to other competitive products. And I trust Honda Inc.
Fact is Honda autos' resale values are better than Nissan's and Toyota's. The market and customers are always wise to determine products' original sale prices and resale prices. The Honda's quality is right there. A manager who got fired from Honda Inc. said he was so pleased to work for Honda Inc., a top-notch company. You cant be wrong to buy a Honda automobile. Depending on how much money you want to spend and how much fun and relaxation you want to enjoy on a Honda's automobile you will make your decision to buy a Honda with a minimum chance of error.
Actually when you apply the word synergistic you get more than the sum of the components. An analogy would be 2+2~=5 Actually the two power components are not synergistic. The HAH is rated as linear 255=240+15 while the Prius HSD is less than linear ICE=76 Electic Motor=67 If you add 76 and 67 you get 143, but Toyota only rates the combination as 110. If the HSD were synergistic than it would be greater than the sum or grater than 143 hp. So neither mild hybrid or full hybrid are synergistic.
YMMV,
MidCow
Let's correct the power and mileage gains of the HAH
http://automobiles.honda.com/info/news/article.asp?ArticleID=2004- - 091746959&Category=Accord+Hybrid
from above article:
"Combined, these technologies along with improvements in aerodynamics and weight saving features like an aluminum hood, allow the Accord Hybrid to achieve an estimated EPA fuel economy rating of 30 miles per gallon in the city and 37 mpg highway, up from an EPA-rated 21 city / 30 highway for the Accord EX V-6 Sedan - a fuel economy gain of 43 percent and 23 percent, respectively. The Accord's Integrated Motor Assist System (60%) accounts for over half the gains in city fuel efficiency, while Variable Cylinder Management (15%) and idle stop (25%) is responsible for the rest. During highway cruising, the VCM system (57%) provides the majority of the increase, while IMA (38%) and a lower drag coefficient and greater aerodynamics (5%) also contribute."
Yes VCM does provide 57% of the highway improvement, but only 15% of the city
Current V6 automatic Accord 21/30
Hybrid V6 automatic Accord 30/37
Total city improvement + 9
Total hwy improvement +7
21 + 15%(9) = 22.35
30 + 57%(7) = 33.99
So with VCM only the mileage would be 22/34, not 29/33.
I think it would be a good move for Honda to add VCM to all V6s not just the HAH and Odessey!!
YMMV,
MidCow
Let's jst correct one thing and say I disagree with the rest.
>How does Prius multiply ICE torque and thrust >without shifting a gear? Simple! Convert ICE >horsepower into electricity and output 295lbs->ft of torque through 50kW MG2!
The 295 ft-lbs of torque is from the electric motor. The electric motor runs from the hybrid battery. Why try to confuse the issue by mentioning the ICE charges the battery. This has nothing to do with multiplying the ICE torque without shifting a gear. The IMA also receives power from the electric motor from the battery, which was also charge by the Honda ICE. So if you logic were true, then the IMA also increases torque and thrust without shifting, but wait it is a 5 speed automatic that shifts. This is a paradox.
I will restate again, the full Hybrid system HSD as implemented in the Prius by Toyota, wastes energy by running the Generator all the time , especially whne the batteries are fully charged and is not needed. That is why the HSD gets worse mileage on the highway than in town.
The HAH and ALL other car s get better highway mileage than city. And with Honda's IMA implementations almost all drivers are anble to achieve or exceed the EPA mileage estimates. The same cannot be said for the HSD "Full Hybrid" system. Very few drivers achieve the EPA ratings let alone exceed them.
usbseawolf2000 thanks for your discussion and inpout though.
YMMV,
MidCow
Only in a sedan and only with 5-speed automatic
The air conditioner will have two compressors. One will be driven off of the ICE and one will be electically driven. Reason being if the car is stopped and the engine shuts off, only the electric will run. In previous IMA offerings (HCH and Insight) the compressor ran off of the ICE only. So you guessed it, when auto-stop was enabled and you stopped; no air conditioning. The fan would still blow, but on a hot day no cooling except residual.
On really, really hot days both the electric and ICE compressors run.
More info on the Temple of VTEC web site.
YMMV,
MidCow
A: 240 HP 3.0 V6 (Accord) + 16 HP electric motor
B: 68 HP 1.0 I-3 (Insight) + 80 HP electric motor (FCX)
“B” would make for a more powerful hybrid power plant. Is that so?
Prius already had electric that can do full blast with the ICE turned off on Oct 2003. In terms of comfort, HSD is more than 2 years ahead of IMA then?
"I'm curious about "the smaller SUV" in the works (Acura RDX)....that thing had 60 HP IMA system ..."
Yea, it is about time IMA take the right route by increasing electric drivetrain power. I believe HAH is a rushed job to get performance hybrid on the market. It simply has the optimized IMA system off the Civic hybrid which is not powerful enough for 240hp ICE.
Dennis
Gas ICE + Electric Motors = Best of both worlds(synergy). Hybrids get better mpg, lower emission, higher power efficiency, no need to plug in, and no need for $20,000 expensive battery. When I say power efficiency, I mean Prius' performance of 4 cylinder auto Camry.
"Prius HSD is less than linear ICE=76 Electic Motor=67 If you add 76 and 67 you get 143, but Toyota only rates the combination as 110."
You should add ICE power + Battery power. Some of the ICE power is split to generator to power 67hp electric motor. Therefore, you can't count it twice.
Dennis
That looks correct. You calculated EX-V6 with VCM would get 22/34. My calculations were HAH without VCM.
Dennis
OTOH, Honda seems to have chosen to adopt an evolutionary process to improve the little things first before going for the big ones. That’s no “rushing” in my book. If Accord Hybrid gets 30 mpg for me in city driving, is there a problem?
To stay on the topic, do you think Edmunds made a false statement by calling HAH the most powerful hybrid they have driven?
PS. I’m trying to keep this thread on the subject. HSD-IMA battle ground can be created elsewhere. I will participate just as soon as I have enough time to burn in the battle field.
However, the term synergy refers to the following:
Considering the goals that hybrids want to achieve, an important parameter to consider is the ratio: performance/fuel consumption. In this regard hybrid technology can and is synergistic.
(performance/fuel consumption)_{ICE} + (performance/fuel consumption}_{electric motor}<< (performance/fuel consumption}_{hybrid}. This is the synergism that I am referring to.
Not true. The 50kW motor runs from both the HV battery and the generator. By generating electricity and with assist from HV battery, HSD Prius can output high thrust without the need to shift any gear. See the "Heavy Acceleration" demonstration at the below link.
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2005/prius/key_features/hybrid_syn- _drive.html
"So if you logic were true, then the IMA also increases torque and thrust without shifting,..."
To a degree, yes. But IMA system design did not take advantage of that Synergistic effect(removing transmission). First, IMA's electric motor is not powerful enough to allow that. Second, the design is a pure parallel hybrid.
A hybrid needs to be a series hybrid or a series-parallel(HSD) hybrid in order to remove the need for a transmission. HSD Prius can be either series or parallel depending on where the ICE power got split. I think you know this already.
"The HAH and ALL other car s get better highway mileage than city."
They ought to be the other way around. Highway highspeed driving has more drag than city low speed driving. That's a fact. Have you ever question if Santa Claus is real? You will need to question childhood beliefs to make breakthroughs from underlying assumptions.
Dennis
"Gas ICE + Electric Motors = Best of both worlds(synergy). Hybrids get better mpg, lower emission, higher power efficiency, no need to plug in, and no need for $20,000 expensive battery. When I say power efficiency, I mean Prius' performance of 4 cylinder auto Camry."
Actually the Camry with the old 4-speed automatic was faster 0-60 mph in 9.2 seconds. The new for 2005 for the Camry 5-speed automatic should drop approximately another .5 seconds making the 0-60 mph time around 8.7 seconds. The Prius 0-60 mph time vaies between 10.2 and 11.9 depending on the tester. So the Prius is not equal to the 4 cylinder automatic Camry in performance.
I had originally said:
Prius HSD is less than linear ICE=76 Electic Motor=67 If you add 76 and 67 you get 143, but Toyota only rates the combination as 110."
response:
You should add ICE power + Battery power. Some of the ICE power is split to generator to power 67hp electric motor. Therefore, you can't count it twice.
Wow ! You are agreeing with me without even realizing it. The conversion loss is 33 HP (143-110) Than means 33 hp is wasted because the ICE is always running the generator. Otherwise the 67 hp electric motor could be linearly added to the 76 hp ICE and obtain 143 hp total. If you add two discrete components together and the total is less than the sum is that called dissynergism ?
Gosh if the IMA lost 33 hp then the result would be less than the nomal V6 accord. 15 electric _ 240 ICE -33 converison loss= 222 Hp. But no, the IMA is additive so you get an effective 255 hp.
Someone mentioned earlier that the 15 hp electric is a quick-to-market solution to get a perfromance hybrid to the market. Actually, the 240 hp v6 is a pretty stout engine to start with. As with all Honda Vtec engines they are fairly high reving and fairly low torque ( not as low as the Atkinson , high mpg implementation in the Prius HSD engine) and maybe just maybe 15 hp adds enough torque to allow better, more effcient low end torque to improve acceleration at the lower 0-3000 rpm range.
Anyway, Hands down the IMA in the HAH is a winner. Excellent performance and very good mpg.
YMMV,
MidCow
Original
"The HAH and ALL other car s get better highway mileage than city."
Response:
They ought to be the other way around. Highway highspeed driving has more drag than city low speed driving. That's a fact. Have you ever question if Santa Claus is real? You will need to question childhood beliefs to make breakthroughs from underlying assumptions.
Maybe it ought to be the other way around and you are right to a degree air drag is a killer even with low CD. 85 mph has a much lower mpg, than 75 which has a much lower mpg than 65.
However, Newton's second law , that which is in motion tend to stay in motion. The whole reason you shift to higher gears ( or a high eCVT effective ratio) when you go faster, less power is need to maintian speed tahn to accelerate to a speed.
While from a friction and wind resistance standpoint are higher at highway speed, all cars except the Prius, CVT insight get better mpg at highway speeds than they do in the city. So does than mean Santa Claus is still real? ROFLMAO
Have a good weekend.
YMMV,
MidCow
Dennis
A. the accord with 240 HP and 16 HP electric motor is more powerful. Plain and simple, it generates more total power.
But my question to you is this: is that really important? Making it hybrid only increased power output by 15hp. Is that a significant increase in power? I think not. When comparing "hybrid power" you can't just look at the sum, you have to look at the parts (where is the power coming from?)
Don't take my word for it, you can define "hybrid power" any way you like because that phrase does not have a set meaning. In other words, there is no right answer. I just think that my definition is more logical and more useful than some of the others that have been offered on this thread.
I completely agree. One other trick that Honda incorporates on their manual shift high miles per gallon cars is a wider gear ratio spread with a much taller 5th and/or 6th gear (Corvette is the champion in this aspect).
If Honda would make their top gear or drive ration taller in both automatics and standards they could easily gain another 15-20% highway mileage.
Honda Corporate Listen:
(1) add VCM to all engines ( 4 cyl with 2 cyl shutdown ?)
(2) Add taller gearing to all vehicles, a truly cruiser top gear
YMMV,
MidCow
Making it hybrid only increased power output by 15hp. Is that a significant increase in power?
Significant is a relative term, in more ways than one.
At 1000 rpm, 15 HP may be translating to 35% of the total motivation.
At 3500 rpm, 15 HP may be translating to 10% of the total motivation
At 6000 rpm, 15 HP may be translating to 6% of the total motivation
So, how much it helps varies with the band over which the engine operates. Now, here is another theory of relativity
At peak power, 15 HP is just 6% of the total power, but that’s because the ICE is much more powerful. The very same 15 HP would translate to 20% of peak power if the ICE didn’t have enough juice (something like 70 HP).
IMA complements the ICE. As a result, HAH is expected to have a perfectly flat torque curve, all the way from off-idle engine speed to peak power. On top of it, the whole set up weighs barely over 100 lb and does not cost a whole lot more than addition of gadgetry like navigation system does.
When comparing "hybrid power" you can't just look at the sum, you have to look at the parts (where is the power coming from?)
What is the point of hybrid power? The very term “hybrid” represents amalgamation, not separation, of multiple parts (in this case, motors). HAH has electric and gasoline motor integrated into a single unit to drive the vehicle, to complement each other.
Let me throw in Honda’s Hybrid Scooter prototype because it shows a different facet of the technology. The power train in the scooter is designed to operate in parallel (ICE + Electric Motor => Wheel) or series (ICE -> Electric Motor => Wheel), depending on the situation. During low load requirements (less power), only electric motor drives the vehicle, but if there is a higher load requirement, the system turns to assist mode (parallel). Under low load conditions, the ICE may be used as a generator. Even in this case, there is no “individualism” involved.
Here is a non-hybrid illustration of the same. Consider a supercharged 300 HP engine. Do you drill down to component level for power comparisons? Or are these pieces synergized (for Toyota folks) or integrated (for Honda folks) into a single power producing unit?
Speaking of cost, a navigation system can cost $2200, and a premium audio system can cost $1400, a V6 engine seems to add a $3K or so premium on top of an I-4, and likewise, a V8 seems to add a $3-5K premium on top of a V6, so, what is wrong with hybrid adding a premium of $3K?
That being said, I hope Honda’s next move in its IMA car lineup comes in the form of redesigned Civic Hybrid (about $20K), and to bridge the gap between HAH ($30K) and HCH, a four cylinder HAH ($25K). This I-4 HAH could build upon Accord EX.
First you say that any amount of hp from an electric motor is significant because it is constant over the power curve. Yes. But remember gasoline engines are not like this, their power output is a function of RPM. This inherent difference in the power delivery is precisely why you have look at the components separately. Knowing those numbers separately is pretty important.
Gosh, folks - you've got a generous-sized car that will go from 0-60 in the 7 second range, get an honest 30-35 mpg, and have the promise of good reliability and resale. Just exactly what is it that is worth arguing about?
I couldn't care less about what the torque curve of the two entities integrated into hybrid powertrain on their own. It is the hybrid power that matters, not gasoline versus electric.
Maybe. We don't know yet because we don't have info/spec for the comparable hybrid. If Camry Hybrid and Altima Hybrid get 45 mpg in the city, then the answer is yes.
"do you think Edmunds made a false statement by calling HAH the most powerful hybrid they have driven?"
No. Edmunds made the right statement as I said it before. What is in question is how the power is achieved. HAH power output is unbalanced between gas ICE and electric motor.
Dennis
In a domestic vehicle where it is offered the V8 over V6 premium is usual only about $800-$1000. I find all the extra cost of the hybrids out of line. I will wait till the dust settles. I still think the VCM V6 is a better option for good highway mileage and the Accord Diesel the best option by far.
Performance is not measured only by 0-60mph. For 30mph-50mph acceleration, Prius is faster than Camry. Prius might be faster than Accord 4cyl auto in 30mph-50mph also.
"Wow ! You are agreeing with me without even realizing it. The conversion loss is 33 HP (143-110) Than means 33 hp is wasted because the ICE is always running the generator."
No, I am not agreeing with you. You assumed that the battery can supply 67hp to the electric motor(MG2) right? That is not the case. The battery only supply about half(~34hp) of the power to 67hp MG2. The other half comes from the generator MG1, which was split from the ICE. This enable Prius to have smaller battery and extend the HV battery life. Prius ICE with 76hp plus HV battery ~34hp equal 110hp.
For IMA used in HAH, all the electric power has to come from the battery because there is only one motor/generator. HAH IMA can not generate electricity and assist at the same time.
Dennis
STS/V6: $49,590
STS/V8: $58,560
That is a difference of $9K. The only difference in the packaging, that I noticed, is: V6 lacks xenons, intelligent cruise control and magnetic ride control.
Thats a lot of money for V8 plus these features, isn't it? If you simply averaged it out, you're talking almost $2250/feature.
Yes, acceleration take more gas than maintaining the same speed. The question should be comparison between maintaining high speed versus maintaining low speed. It does not matter what car, maintaining high speed will get lower mpg.
Dennis
Back to Accord Hybrid, do you think getting 30 mpg in city (for real, not by fooling EPA estimate) for a midsize sedan with 255 HP, a problem? (your earlier answer was... may be, so I thought about revisiting the issue).
And the result is? 0.5 second faster for 0-60mph?
"Let me throw in Honda’s Hybrid Scooter prototype because it shows a different facet of the technology."
If Honda use it for the hybrid car, it should be equilvent to HSD but HSD should be simplier. Achieving the same thing with different design but the simplier design wins. Does Honda call it IMA as well or another name?
Dennis
And the result is? 0.5 second faster for 0-60mph?
"Let me throw in Honda’s Hybrid Scooter prototype because it shows a different facet of the technology."
If Honda use it for the hybrid car, it should have equivalent benefits as HSD but HSD should be simpler. Achieving the same thing with different design but the simpler design wins. Does Honda call it IMA as well or another name?
Dennis
My answer is still inconclusive because there is no other performance hybrid to compare with. You might want to believe there are no problem by comparing with Accord EX-V6 numbers. My answer to you is, wait until performance mid-size sedan full hybrids arrive. By looking at HCH and Prius, I can speculate that full hybrid design get higher mpg, performance, lower emission, for the larger car than IMA design.
If magazines test HAH and show that it does not achieve EPA numbers, does it mean HAH also fooled the EPA test? Then it will be true for all the cars.
Dennis
STS/V6: $49,590
STS/V8: $58,560
You are probably right. I was thinking back to when I ordered new Chevy trucks and the small V8 was an additional $800 over the standard V6. Now they throw so much other stuff with the engine upgrades it is hard to decipher what you really get for the additional bucks.
the only thing that may be sacrifice on the accord would be its electric power steering versus the regular set up. it's still a very solid feeling car that handles and rides like the regular V6 but with more mid-range punch.
oh, and it does so with better fuel economy.
remember this car is picked by many sources to be the best mid-size car in the market.
now take their beloved prius, its design sacrifices too much. it handles dreadfully with its skinny tires and its seats are uncomfortable because they're so thinly padded. despite your claims, mid-range response is modest and you feel the nudging and acceleration sag as the motor switches in and out of battery recharge mode. and you got to love its cross wind stability.
the most remarkable thing about the accord hybrid is how transparent its operation is from the regular accord. that is until you come to a stop and the motor(s) shut off.
the camry hybrid may work as successfully but all we have from toyota so far is the prius.
As far as simplicity goes, things couldn’t get simpler than IMA. Part (or all) of the flywheel replaced by electric motor with additional electrical components (energy storage and wires), in an otherwise conventional drive train.
My answer is still inconclusive because there is no other performance hybrid to compare with.
Without having another hybrid to compare with, being able to get 30 mpg or better in city from a 255 HP family sedan is good enough for me.
By looking at HCH and Prius, I can speculate that full hybrid design get higher mpg, performance, lower emission, for the larger car than IMA design.
I have been trying to keep HCH and Prius off this thread, but you continue to insist so I will respond. However, do not expect me to keep babbling on the topic. If you wish to continue, please do so in an intended thread, and leave this alone for Accord Hybrid.
HCH is ready for replacement in a year. Being a newer design, I expect Prius to be better. Now, as far as real life mpg is concerned, there is a perfect place to look, average fuel economy from the database at greenhybrid.com. HCH is at 48 mpg, and Prius (new) is at 49 mpg (numbers, as of Oct 15).
As for size, HCH and Prius aren’t much different. The boxy and hatchback style give it more interior room in an otherwise similar package. Perhaps, Honda will consider bringing the next HCH in 5-door HB form
If magazines test HAH and show that it does not achieve EPA numbers, does it mean HAH also fooled the EPA test? Then it will be true for all the cars.
Believe it or not, I believe it IS true for all cars. It is not a hybrid-only issue, although a full hybrid is likely to skew it more than ICE-heavy (assist-mode) hybrid or conventional ICE vehicles.
I would rather prefer a more realistic approach to this by not throwing in too many variables, rather, keeping it simpler. A highway mileage could be measured by simply driving the vehicle a considerable distance at a set speed, something like 60 mph. The distance needs to be enough to ensure enough recycling of resources (electric and ICE) especially in case of hybrids.
A city-based measurement could involve a similar approach with lower speed and stops (based on distance involved), again, enough to ensure all modes of power train involvement are covered.
Perhaps we will see something along the lines in the future from EPA since it did invite suggestions from people couple of months ago (I discovered it too late to provide mine). And a similar approach should be used for emissions testing also.
As far as magazines or other reviewers are concerned, there numbers should be used for comparison only if they are realistic comparisons, not based on two different baselines. Otherwise we could say C&D got about 16-18 mpg from Jetta TDI, HCH and Prius in their test (which they did), and couldn’t be wrong (since they did).
350 HP of Hybrid (IMA) power delivered via all four wheels. The powertrain was a hybrid of...
2.0-liter I-4 DOHC i-VTEC (200 HP)
Electric Motors/IMA (150 HP)
Also, I think it's interesting that you believe fuel economy numbers should be compared only when they have the same baseline, yet you refer to the fuel economy numbers from greenhybrid.com, which are based on many different baselines.
As for baseline comparisons, there is a large enough sample of data to draw comparisons. For specific information, you could go to the website and dig up the intended information. It is not like those numbers have been simply tossed up.
Regardless of conditions, HCH fuel economy is right where it can be expected to be if we were to lug on to EPA estimates (45-51 mpg). But is the same true for Prius?
For same reasons as HCH, I think HAH would be able to have more respect for its EPA ratings, after all its reliance is far more on a gasoline engine than is on electrical component. ;-)
If the HAH performs comparably to the HCH in tests like C/Ds, here is what we can expect:
Highway: 34 mpg (91.5% of EPA)
(Interesting to note that Prius achieved 98% of its EPA rating)
City: Either 25 mpg or 33 mpg, depending on whether the HAH acts more like the HCH in economy mode (higher number) or not.
Racetrack: About 11 mpg (based on HCH's 16)
Maybe C/D will do a follow-up test with the HAH.
Oh, I hope not, especially if the chassis is set up the way it is in some cars. :-)
Seriously though, this was meant to demonstrate how fuel economy (achieved) is affected by driving style. Thats was the point not whether HAH or Prius or HCH would do well on track.
Or do you think it makes sense to take a number and disregard everything that affects it?
Seriously though, this was meant to demonstrate how fuel economy (achieved) is affected by driving style.
Is there some relationship here to the HAH?