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Comments
:rolleyes:
What was it that you took so personally?
Is there some relationship here to the HAH?
Of course. Go back and see where the discussion started. To re-iterate briefly, realistic fuel economy should not be compared without an understanding of driving style. Here is why...
I get 32 mpg at in my 98 Accord EX where as an 2003 Accord EX gets 24 mpg. Does this comparison makes sense to you?
No, for two reasons. First, you didn't say whether it's your '03 Accord EX. If it's not, then the comparison is invalid. You also didn't say whether the cars have 4 cylinders or 6, or automatic or manual transmissions. Or do you think it makes sense to take a number and disregard everything that affects it? Second, neither car is the HAH.
Aah, just the point I was trying to make! For that matter, I didn't say where those numbers came from either. FYI, I was comparing a mileage I typically obtain at 75 mph on freeway in my 98 Accord EX compared to EPA (city) estimate for 24 mpg.
Both are mileage numbers, but using different baseline. I should be comparing mileage I obtain under similar circumstances, correct? Yep, that was my point.
All this hair-splitting over where the power comes from, and how much there is, seems pretty pointless when it's obvious that (A) there's more than enough performance, and (B) it will get diesel-level fuel economy without diesel hassles. Let the details reveal themselves in due course...
That is wishful thinking. The Accord 2.2 I-CDTI will get a combined mileage of about 44 mpg US, at least 10 mpg better than the EPA estimates for the HAH.
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=99
Accord diesel & hybrid competition:
Alfa 156 2.4JTD, Audi A4 TDI , Audi A6 TDI, BMW 320d, Citroen C5 2.2 HDI, Ford Mondeo TDCI 130, Jaguar X-Type diesel; Mazda 6 diesels, Mercedes C200/C220CDI, Peugeot 607 2.2HDI, Renault Laguna diesels, Rover 75 CDTI, Skoda Superb TDI, Toyota Avensis D-4D, Vauxhall Vectra 2.2 DI, VW Passat TDI, new Volvo V50 TD.
"performance, cost, reliability and fuel economy"
I like your order, my only difference is that I place "manual transmission" some where close to the front of the list.
You realize that the first item "performance" knocks out the Prius. And in terms of total cost of ownership, the Prius is marginal because of the high initial cost. But then so will the HAH. Neither is an economical car if you consider the pruchase price.
I would also add "handling" and actually my perception varies from some. At the Auto show this weekend I drove a Cadillac STS and it handled very nice. So I guess handling means it can transistion nimbly as a light car whther it is light or not.
When you add diesel to Honda you gain relability; something VW is lacking. The torque of a diesel is amazing and the Honda diesel does have relative good performance.
While the automatic Prius is intriguing , its performance knocks it out of the running. The HAH has perfromance and even though it is an automatic, I would consider it.
YMMV,
MidCow
Here's a clip of a review of HAH:
"Slightly twitchy steering is a flaw that a sensitive driver might notice. It won't stay centered as you'd like and seems overboosted just off-center. Thus, the hybrid starts drifting one way, you turn the wheel the other, the car over-responds and you have to turn the wheel back. "I agree it feels a little weak on-center," says chief engineer Tetsurou Hamada."
I hope that this is not a serious problem. Also, I am concerned about torque steer in the HAH, considering that the Accord EXV6 Auto has noticable torque steer.
The electric steering is the one of the best setups we've ever tested (are you listening, GM?), as it offers plenty of feedback and confidence-inspiring road feel without any of the numbness we've experienced with other electrically controlled setups.
There was no mention of torque steer. However, this was just a "first drive" test and not a full road test. It might be difficult to put 255 hp over the front wheels and completely banish torque steer.
my concerns are based on what that engineer said. If it is "weak on-center" does that mean that torque steer will be more pronouned? I hope not.
EPS is kinda necessary in hybrid vehicles primarily due to the system being able to keep the steering wheel powered up during idle stops. Besides, of course, it doesn't drain power from the engine.
BTW, this would be the sixth Honda in the US market to have EPS (NSX, S2000, Insight, Civic Si, Civic Hybrid).
Higher performance trims of Accord in Japanese market get EPS as well.
But, good deals at Acura dealership on TSX could change that. HAH has suddenly become an intriguing option as well, although I want a 6-sp manual this time around. If come dealtime, i get some interesting numbers to play with, I might go either TSX or HAH way.
All that being said, Honda engineers are pretty sharp and have made every effort to equalize the physical aspect of torque steer. I think you will find Honda's torque steer problem much less than less sophisitated enginered solutions found in most other cars.
In other words ' .. much ado about nothing" or "making a mountain out of a mole hill" Torque steer will not be noticed by most and IMHO will not occur during normal and moderately sporty driving.
Honda's design philisophy, at least the implementations that I have owened, is to make a reliable, economical car that is not the best at any one aspect of performance, handling, braking, etc., but a product that is "above average" or "very good" at everything .
I also think the bad press about the electric steering is also overblown. Honda critics couldn't find anything else to fault about the HAH so they ragged on the electric steering.
Go Hondas/Acuras!!
MidCow
PS.- How 'bout them Astros !
Honda has never failed me on one single car I had bought from them for my great collection of 9 Hondas. So you are quite right when you said "Go Honda/Acura".
My friend likes Camry. He said the Camry has the stability control bar that Accord does not have it. I recall the HAH probably gets that stability control bar too. Is it right? I will have to read its specifications again. It appears Camry lags behind Accord when it was rated by IntelliChoice and other major auto critics company in the last couple of years. The body of the 2003 EX V6 Accord I bought for my son is so strong. When I sit in the driver seat I can get that strong feeling. Since Accord 2003, the body has been reinforced to be 26% stronger than bodies in previous years. Honda engineers are so smart. I like every single things inside the Accord. Looks like every things and every arrangements inside the Honda are so logical and efficient. The Accord EX V6 2004 has 8 airbags, 7 cup holders. I do not know where they hide those things. It is amazing. Accord has been crowned as "King on the Road".
Do you use synthetic oil or regular? Does the 9 years old engine burn engine oil, meaning oil level goes down after oil change periods.
Dennis
I used regular oil 10W-40 after 100K miles and regular oil 20W-50 at 150K miles for this 95 Accord EX I4. Somebody said I should not use thick oil 20W-50 on a Honda. It did burn some oil only recently. In cool Autumn or Winter days in Northern California, the engine runs almost like "new". All my other new Accords get Mobil synthetic oil 5W-30.
A while ago, I gave my 92 Accord LX I4 at 215K miles to my Dad after I tuned up the engine, replaced new coolant, new plugs, new timing belt, new trans oil, valves adjusted, etc. When I picked up this car after the tune, the engine ran so smoothly like new. It was amazing.
Conclusion: My wife loves to lear her cat purring around our house. I love to hear my "line of Accords" purring quietly when they smoothly run around my home town or cruise along on the highways. My wife said I have been so obsessed with my Accords. My "brand-new" Accord EX V6 2002 200HP at 25K miles has never got a single tiny scratch except unwanted rocks from stupid trucks on the highways. I also bought an Accord V6 2003 240HP for my 18 year old son. And that is truly a "quiet highway monster".
I have to say I have been "PAMPERING" all my Accords. Even my oldest 95 Accord EX I4 gets similar top-notch maintenance like other Accords. I can't wait to buy a HAH very soon. I love its 255HP with the gas bill of a Civic, its NAV system and XM radio, etc. I love to hear the I-VTEC V6 engines purring like a King Cheetah on the highways. In order to appreciate Accords V6's power you get to drive long distances on highways rather than crusing around the home town, back and forth from home to work most of the time like myself.
My 95 Accord will be 10 year old this coming Feb 1, 05. I keep buying new Accords and my wife is willing to drive my old Accords and let me drive new ones. Do you see how nice she is except she often yells out loud and acts like she is the "Chief Commander of the house"?
http://www.presstelegram.com/Stories/0,1413,204~25896~2478444,00.- html
YMMV,
MidCow
Few weeks ago, I checked oil on my Accord EX 95 I4 it did burn some oil after 350 miles high speed highway drive. Today, I checked oil again after about 400+ miles it has not burned any oil. It is really misterious. In fact, after 150K miles it did not burn any oil at all. Anyway, from now on I have to keep checking on the oil to make sure the egine will not be immaturely burnt if the oil is so low. It is truly worth every single penny to buy a Honda. When I sold my Honda Civic 1986 at 120K miles, the engine ran on the highway like "brand-new".
The coming HAH 2005 is another Honda's breakthrough that I cannot resist my "Honda-obsessed temptation" to buy one as soon as it is displayed in the showroom.
"The new five-passenger Accord also is likely to rank as the second-best mid-size sedan in fuel economy, with an expected rating of 30 miles a gallon in city driving and 37 mpg on the highway."
What does this have to do with the HAH? If Honda dealers mark up a new model like the Ody over list, guess what they will do with the new HAH that is in even shorter supply (20k units in the first year)? For anyone hoping to get one for anything close to list price in December or soon after, I wish them much luck. We can only hope they haven't been paying attention to what some Toyota dealers have done with the Prius.
OhioCarGuy
The added economy comes from the capability of the electric engine to "assist" the gas engine, thus using less fuel while the assist is occurring.
These engines also shut down cylinder banks when not required, again using less fuel.
As you will notice, the mileage numbers are somewhat higher than the EX model Accord V6.
4k premium would be alright during the novelty stage. In a few years time Honda will have to provide hefty discounts to continue selling HAHs, especially with the onslaught of new hybrid models(this would annoy early HAH buyers since major discounts would adversely affect resale values)
I think Honda is too smart and would charge a 2k premium in order to accomplish long term satisfaction among Honda hybrid owners.
For 250-255 HP, you could get 19-20 mpg in town in a midsize sedan, and about $30K, Honda opted to deliver the same with about 30 mpg.
For a premium that is expected to be $3k plus the sunroof you can't get in the hybrid, you get a car that is slightly faster than the V6 Accord. More importantly, the hybrid gets 43% better city mileage (a big increase to 30 vs. 21) and a modest but significant 23% increase in highway mileage (37 vs. 30). To me, that's an attractive package.
OhioCarGuy
Get Accord EXV6 w/NAV for $28.5K
Or, Accord Hybrid without NAV for $30K
In this case, the “premium” would be only $1.5K. You give up a feature or two, and you get another (more power, better fuel economy). As for any difference in the feel of the interior and the driving experience itself, a personal evaluation would be necessary.
Compare without nav prices on both.
For a premium that is expected to be $3k plus the sunroof you can't get in the hybrid, you get a car that is slightly faster than the V6 Accord. More importantly, the hybrid gets 43% better city mileage (a big increase to 30 vs. 21) and a modest but significant 23% increase in highway mileage (37 vs. 30). To me, that's an attractive package.
OhioCarGuy
Also, you forgot the HAH will probably sell at MSRP and the other at Invoice ... so tha actual gap widens ..
Hey robertmx , I appreciate you engneering input and views.
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S,- Need to delay my purchase decision anyway. Wife needs a job and I just sunk $1,000 for tires and brakes, radiator flush , oil lube in my current 'muter car ye ole 5-speed Lexus ES300 ( it was the last year to have a 5-speed manual shift, it is a trivia question: What year?). Problem is I can find a new car that I want to spend the money on that us better (Outstanding stereo (better than most new ones including the JBL Prius upgrade)), cold air, etc.), you know the ole TCO thing!
Let me put it in another way... if NAV can cost $2K, whats wrong with hybrid technology adding $2.5K?
Now, MSRP to market price is a completely different subject. Once again it boils down to the basic game in sales... demand. If people want HAH, they will be willing to pay for it. If they treat it like another Accord trim, we will see near invoice pricing. And this has nothing to do with hybrid technology. Back in Fall 1997, I remember reading about wait lists on Accord V6. They were being sold at MSRP.
"Let me put it in another way... if NAV can cost $2K, whats wrong with hybrid technology adding $2.5K?
I think there is nothing wrong with the Hybrid premium.
That being said, I think Honda will sell all the HAHs they can make. Honda unlike Toyota will react and significantly and expediantely increase production way beyond the current annual number being thrown around of 20,000.
While Toyota may be bigger , there are like dinosaurs to make changes. Honda is more like a nimble sports car and is able to reate quicker to market demands.
YMMV,
MidCow
Let's go for HAH plus the NAV. What's the heck about an extra $2K or $1.5K for the NAV. Anyway, we get $1,500 - $2,000 tax credit for the HAH deal.
So I am wondering... just how many can they make? Or will they have any supply problems as has plagued Toyota with the Prius?
I am also wondering how many they can sell. Think about the target market for the HAH. IMO it is not the same market as for the standard Accord. I think it is the near-luxury car buyer, who might otherwise buy a $35-40k Lexus or Acura or Audi or Cadillac or BMW. Instead, they can buy a luxurious Accord that is as powerful as any of these near-luxury cars but is more economical to buy and to run. I don't know how many people are in this market, but it's not the hundreds of thousands who are in the mid-sized family car market.
Keep the old Lexus. My wife's 1990 LS400 still gets 19/27mpg and runs like a top. It is not worth anything in trade. It is a waste to get a new car until the old one dies of old age. Money in the bank driving the old car. No way you can justify a new car with better gas mileage. Only if you just want a new car can it be justified.
"Keep the old Lexus"
Yes sir, that is my think also. And what bothers me most is that is has features that are still better than most new cars and it is a '93
I only get about 21 mpg driving back and forth to work, but it is a battle zone and I am not the slow, timid driver. I am sure Xcel(Wayne) could get 25 mpg, maybe even 30 mpg. What is heaver than Lead? That is what my right foot must be made of
YMMV,
MidCow
New Flash- Astros lost to the Cards in a run-away 5-2 final.