Hybrid Honda Accord

usbseawolf2000

You all post a lot in a couple of day.

Dennis

viet

Hi Dennis,

No problem, except an (oil) seal at the bottom of the engine (I forgot the exact name) was replaced by my mechanic at $300 cost. After 6 months, all 95 Accord EX including mine were recalled to replace that seal. I requested Honda a reimbursement because I already replaced it but Honda denied my claim. Also when it rains and the roads are wet the transmission sometimes slips a little bit, but not quite often.

My Accord EX 95 I4 is almost 200K miles now but it always runs like "it never gets a chance to run again". In order to appreciate Honda'e engines you have to drive long distances on high ways. As somebody put it "Honda autos do not know...how to to run slowly".

I am a little bit disappointed when I learnt that the first shipment of HAH to the US will be only 1,000. Each dealership gets 1 HAH. It means buyers will have to "fight" with each other to buy one. Come on, wake up Honda Inc.! I need that HAH badly because my 16 year old son needs to take over my old car now.

I do love to hear all my Accords V6 EX rev their big fat engines while running. They arrogantly "pur". It is a pure joy.

307web

I have heard people making estimates of between $3500 to $8000.
Hopefully, by the time they need replacing after 80,000 miles, the prices will have come down and the replacement batteries are not discontinued a few years after they cease production of vehicles that use these batteries.

robertsmx

I have heard people making estimates of between $3500 to $8000.

I just heard usbseawolf2000 that he has a clue. The problem is, he won't share it with us. ;-)

midnightcowboy

You have to wonder about an article that has the mileage incorrect for both the Prius and the Insight. When you mess up on key facts, your overall credibiability suffers, such as their 2004 MTCOTY choice. You would think as car magazine as large as Motor Trend would proofread and check the accuracy of their articles:

For the Prius they published 60/55 actual is 60/51.

For the manual Insight they published 66/61 actual is 60/66 I gues they though Honda converted from IMA technology to HSD technology.

YMMV,

MidCow

robertsmx

And Toyota converted from HSD to IMA when they mention RX400h at an estimated 25-city/35-highway mpg.

HSD should do better in EPA testing process for city rating given that gasoline engine isn’t put to use as much under the circumstances.

midnightcowboy

"When the product is superior, it is easier to market.

I finally agree with you. Yes the HAH will be easier to market because Honda makes a superior product.

YMMV,

MidCow

maxhonda99

Did you think each dealer will get 10 Accord Hybrid's in the first allocation? Come on, you seem to forget about logistics(transportation of the cars to the dealer from ports). Also, it's a new product and it will be rolled out slowly to ensure higher quality.

Each dealer is probably only getting about 1 in the initial allocation so that each dealer has a car for test drives/demos.

dewey

I read about some of the possible specs for the RDX and it does sound exciting. It would be more exciting if all RDXs are hybrids(this would differentiate it just like the Prius).

Unfortunately I do not like the way this vehicle will be marketed. Read from various Honda/Acura sources that this car will be marketed for younger buyers who cannot afford an MDX. In other words for MDX wannabes.

Instead the RDX should be marketed as a hybrid SUV for technology-obsessed individuals who want high performance (there are quite a large number of such individuals out there, especially among members of this message board)

robertsmx

I agree with your points. RDX should be an all-hybrid vehicle, or at least start out as one, and eventually Acura adds a lesser trim. Perception does play a role, IMO. In fact, I was thinking along the same lines a few days ago, a slightly larger version of Civic sedan with different exterior (in other words, more Acura) with hybrid-power (only).

As for market positioning of the RDX, you’re correct once again. I bet Honda will try to market it as a smaller SUV under the MDX, and people will see it as MDX wannabe. But you can’t do anything about it.

frank49g

Dennis: Thanks for the corrections. I went back and fixed what you pointed out. No excuses.

As far as IMA is concerned -- and the 3-cylinder VCM overview -- I left them all out for a reason. While I am certainly interested in the technology, the ultimate consumer really doesn't care.

Let me put it another way -- there just aren't 20,000 technologically literate, green-leaning, upper income people who are going to buy the car on the strength of either of the above-mentioned systems.

I am sure I'm in the minority on this board. And I definitely took a chance with the review -- intentionally, to position the Accord as a car with a hybrid option. As opposed to a hybrid that happens to be an Accord.

Again, thanks for the correction. If we ever increase the size of our staff to more than one, I will look you up!

frank49g

Backy:
Good points. I bailed out on mentioning some things as I was really going looooong. Let me try and address what I can:

Trunk space: Acording to Honda, the battery pack caused 25% space loss. They rather gamely tried to claim it would still fit four golf bags, but the assertion sort of died on the breeze.

I would say the space is adequate, and roughly box-like. Also, since there is no spare tire due to the Instant Mobility Flat Tire System [IMS], there is a cargo space under the trunk mat that has a nice rubber-like, compartmentalized liner.

Unfortunately, I have no MPG data for you. I'm an old-fashioned, fill-up-the-tank and record the mileage, then fill-it-up again and do the division kind of guy.

I saw the readout and it reported 20, 25 and 32 at different times. I should not have been going 80 in the first place and spent way too much time fiddling with the Star Trek data center in the middle of the dash. So I'm sorry I didn't do better there.

I thought it was a great car.

backy

Get ready to put some minutes on your cell phone. Not every Honda dealer (like those out in the boonies) may sell their initial HAH. At least, that happened last fall with the first '04 Prius shipments. So you might want to call all the Honda dealers in an X mile radius around you and let them know you would LOVE to take that first HAH off their hands.

gagrice

I thought it was a great car.

Is it $3-$4k better than the top of the line V6 Accord? The fuel savings will take over 15 years to make up that difference. The Accord is very clean to start with. I think I would rather have an Accord with the V6 with VCM and get good highway mileage without the added Hybrid hardware.

viet

Thanks "Backy rau muo^'ng...nuo^.c cha^'m tuo*ng Cu*. Dda`". I am suspecting that I have to wait until 2005 to have that terrific HAH. I have no need to buy a regular V6 2005. But my son will have to...walk to school during winter.

jbeall

I have read in this discussion that the HAH will debut on Dec. 3. However, a salesman at the Honda dealership in Massillon, Ohio told me that they don't expect to get any HAH vehicles until February or March. Does anyone have any details about this? Is this debut scheduled for Dec. 3 nationwide at every dealer? Should I check other dealers in the area? Thanks for the information in advance.

robertsmx

Why bother with V6/VCM? You would get better mileage with I-4 without the premium you would pay for V6 engine, something you would never recover from saving fuel.

You know where I’m going with this. HAH isn’t focusing solely on… buy this car so you can save $$$ on fuel. To save $$$, you can always pick the lowest trim equipped to fit your needs.

gagrice

Why bother with V6/VCM?

My thought was to have the V6 performance and the VCM economy without all the extra hybrid hardware. Plus the added trunk space lost to the hybrid. I would think with VCM and a light foot you could approach 37 mpg on the highway. Plus $3k-$4k in your pocket for gas. I don't know, hybrid just does not make dollars and cents to me. At least not in the current models that are here and on the horizon. No one has shown a realistic model for saving money with a Hybrid. And the emissions is so slight it is not even an issue if you look at the science and not the hype.

midnightcowboy

Gagprice,

I agree completely, why not add VCM to all V6s, instead of just the HAH and Odessey.

To take it a step further, the way Honda achieves better fuel efficiency on their high mpg models to give the transmission a taller 4th and 5th gearing. The 6 speed manual could be made a wider ratio, at least for the top 2 gears to give the cars much better highway mileage.

YMMV, a person ( or the electronics for those auto trans people) has the ability to downshift if they want to accelerate faster to pass, etc.

MidCow

robertsmx

“V6 performance” is an interesting subject. What exactly is it? Did Mazda 626 V6 (160 HP @ 6000 rpm, 161 lb.-ft @ 5000 rpm) have the V6 performance? Could you consider Accord I-4 (160 HP @ 5500 rpm, 161 lb.-ft @ 4500 rpm) as V6 performance? Actually, I feel that my Accord I-4 (150 HP/152 lb.-ft) has all the performance I need! So, where do we go from here?

Hey, just go ahead and get Accord EX and save $3-4K (depending on whether you want leather or not), besides you would be saving in fuel also.

The point here is, that unlike the premium V6 brings over I-4 and without promising any form of fuel savings (in fact, consuming more fuel), hybrid gets you better than the V6 performance while your car sips less fuel.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see VCM offered in Accord V6 eventually, after all, Honda is putting it without hybrid option in its minivan! With VCM, of course, Honda will also have to incorporate Active Noise Cancellation (ANC). I’m not sure how much VCM+ANC would add to the cost, do you?

Doing the kind of math we usually do to make a point against hybrids: at 12K miles/year, assuming 60% city driving following EPA estimates and $1.85/gallon, a 10% fuel saving would be about $90/year.

But, here is a question for you… what makes a $30K 255 HP Accord Hybrid expensive while we talk about fuel economy improvement not being enough to recuperate the costs in the short term (compared to Accord EXV6)? And what argument do you hold for a Pontiac G6, with tested price tag of (almost) $29K, delivering 21/29 mpg from its 200 HP engine?

Why is $2-3K premium for hybrid such a big deal, but $1500 for chrome wheels, and $2K for navigation system is not?

gagrice

But, here is a question for you… what makes a $30K 255 HP Accord Hybrid expensive while we talk about fuel economy improvement not being enough to recuperate the costs in the short term

I was comparing apples to apples. An Accord V6 with all the extras that the hybrid has. I thought the price was to be $3k-$4k more than a comparably equipped Accord V6. If the price is the same then there is a good case to buy the hybrid. The hybrid alone does not IMO make the car worth $3k-$4k more, if all else is equal. Unless the hybrid is a much better performance car than the V6. I have not seen any side by side comparisons. 10-20% fuel improvement by itself is not reason to spend an additional $3k-$4k. I think Honda should put out the Accord V6 with VCM and the HAH and let the public decide which they like the best.

robertsmx

For me, HAH is another powerful V6 sedan that offers great fuel economy and comes with near-luxury appointments. There are other cars to consider bearing the same price tag, but there is only one car that promises to save a few bucks with as much or more power.

And you haven’t answered the question. What makes $1500 chrome wheels, or $2000 navigation system a non-issue, unlike IMA? And you could apply this to the same car, or between different cars.

And do you think VCM will add to the cost? Just like the MSRP of the HAH, I would like you to take a guess on this one. And whatever it is, this cost is included in the HAH besides the premium of IMA.

robertsmx

I found this little graph that tries to explain a how a typical (non-hybrid) VCM is setup (in this case, JDM Honda Inspire)



This set up in Inspire has been on sale in Japan for over a year. And per Sanyo PR (that broke the news of HAH), Inspire would be getting hybrid option as well, a market where VCM/V6 and IMA/VCM/V6 will co-exist first!

gagrice

And you haven’t answered the question. What makes $1500 chrome wheels, or $2000 navigation system a non-issue, unlike IMA?

I don't think any option is a non issue. I was just doing a comparison between two otherwise equal Accords. Until they are out and available for side by side comparison it is pretty much speculation. Here is where I am coming from. So far all of the hybrids have been surrounded in big news stories to get the interest up. People are laying down good money for a car they have never driven. Not just the HAH all the proposed hybrids. The dealers know they have you coming in, so they are going to gouge you. So if you can look past the hype of hybrid and say, I think I like the V6 Accord just as well as the HAH. If all things are equal as far as leather, NAV, sunroof etc. You will probably get a much better deal on the plain old top end V6 Accord. Then 3 years down the road when they are losing their shorts on HAH trade-in you will be in good shape. It is an absolute fact that if the dealer adds $2000 to the MSRP that is money down the drain at trade-in time. If on the other hand you are the type person that is going to keep the car for 15 years like we do. Then that extra can be justified just to be the first on the block.

robertsmx

Don't blame a car, or the technology for dealer gouging. What you say about hybrids in general (availability, waitlists etc) has applied to non-hybrids as well, including 1998 Accord V6 (esp coupe). I remember it well.

It is about supply and demand, not the technology itself, or the cost/benefit of.

gagrice

Oh, I agree. I wanted a Miata in the worst way when they came out and never bought one because of all the gouging. I just have too much control over my money to let some slick car dealer screw me.

pjo1966

... not to mention the $7000 markup dealers in LA have for a new Mini Cooper convertible.

gagrice

They are a great little car. But anything over MSRP is a bad deal.

pjo1966

... agreed. $7000 over MSRP is obscene.

backy

One thing to keep in mind is that spending over $30k for what amounts to a mid-sized V6 sedan is more an emotional decision than a practical one, no matter if it has a hybrid powertrain or not. Life is short and you can't take it with you. Of course, you could buy a $20k Accord and donate the rest to your favorite charity...

gagrice

Of course, you could buy a $20k Accord and donate the rest to your favorite charity...

That's a very noble thought...

oranu

What is the cost of the Accord hybrid with the map function as the only option, including delivery cost and taxes for California purchase?

midnightcowboy

The GPS (map function or NAV) is about the only option you can gat on the HAH. The price in other Honda lines is $2,000. The total Cost of a HAH with NAV is estimated to be $32-33,000 and will most likely be sold at MSRP.

A similarly equipped Accord EX will have a moonroof and will be sold closer to invoice and will cost about $26,000 the real gap being $6-7,000.

If you are looking at pure economics the gas savings of the HAH will take 5-7 years to recover ovr a HA.

YMMV,
MidCow

backy

Wouldn't it take a mite longer than 5-7 years to recoup $6-7000 just based on gas savings? For example, assuming an average mpg of 25 for the V6 HA and 34 for the HAH, and gas at a generous $3/gallon, and 15,000 miles per year, I calculate about $480 per year in savings. Check my math, but it looks to me like it would take over 12 years to recoup the cost. Then there's that question of battery replacement after a certain time--would that happen before 12 years? Tax breaks would reduce the payback time somewhat, but it would still be longer than 5-7 years.

midnightcowboy

Backy,

Your are right, I was equating to my present driving rate of 25,000 miles a year. The normal average estimate of 15,000 miles a year would take somewhere around 12 years or more if the gas price stays around $2.50

Thanks,

MidCow

bartalk2

Excellent review of the HAH in December issue of Car & Driver. But did anyone notice that while the hybrid has an EPA rating of 30-37 Car & Driver's observed mileage was 26! That was buried in the test results data and they didn't even comment on it in the text!

26? You can get that with the V-6 alone.

307web

26 in the hard manner they tested it. They should have also driven a plain V6 driven exactly the same way and see what the milege difference is when driven identically over the same route at the same time.

backy

Yes, these car mags tend to drive cars pretty hard. But do you suppose that someone who buys a HAH for its 255 horsepower and blistering 0-60 times won't exercise that power and speed regularly? If not, save the bucks and get a 4-banger Accord.

larsb

Well, those who drive the HAH for "fun" all the time will never see any high MPG figures and would be in the category of buyers who paid the extra Bucks for the Extra 15 HP and are using it. If the extra HP is worth it to them and they love the Accord brand that much, they may not care about high MPG.

But even then, they will have the peace of mind of knowing that if they ever NEED to get 37 MPG they CAN.

bartalk2

Mileage estimates for hybrids seem to be notoriously inaccurate on the high side. Honda needs to clarify this. No one wants to pay $3,000 more(higher actually) than an EX V-6, put up with an 11 sq ft. trunk and no spare, and get only marginally higher mileage than with the conventional V-6 alone.

midnightcowboy

Actually Hondas Mileage figures on their other hybrids: Insight and Civic Hybrid have been fairly accurate. The IMA seems to excel at highway speeds and the highway figures are usually obtained.

However, the full hybrid system, HSD, used in the Toyota Prius and now being used in the Ford Escape Hybrid seems to favor the EPA testing route and the EPA numbers are not obtained by most "real world" users. For example the Prius is rated at 60 city and 51 highway and most "normal, average" drivers are getting mid-40s mpg ( which is still excellent).

You shouldn't be concerned that Car and Driver only got 26 mpg overall. They probably hammered the HAH and I would bet that the VCM never activated. The HAH has 255 hp and has a V6 and a lot of the highway mileage achievement is obtained when the VCM shuts down 3 cylinders.

YMMV,

MidCow

backy

These results, from C&D and the review posted earlier here, raise a question: what is the maximum speed, on level ground, at which the HAH can run with VCM engaged (i.e., run on 3 cylinders)? From these reviews, I am beginning to wonder if the HAH can run at 80 mph on 3 cylinders. If not, and that is a pretty typical highway speed for a lot of people (unfortunately), those kinds of drivers would not see anywhere close to the 37 mpg the EPA predicts. But then, what car would see its EPA rating at 80 mph?

307web

The point is that a normal V6 Accord will not get 26MPG driven the way they drove the Hybrid. You would only get 26MPG in a regular V6 Accord if it was driven much less aggressively and mostly on the highway.
So, the hybrid mileage is still "better" even though they only got 26 MPG the way they chose to drive it.
If you drive a V6 Accord hard, you can expect to get mileage in the teens, not 26MPG, so you are still benefiting even if you take advantage of the extra power in the hybrid.

307web

So, you expect gas prices to stay pretty constant for the next 12 years?

307web

Most people drive over the speed limit when they can and feel they can get away with it, but do not go so far as to "average" 80 MPH.
Must not be much traffic or speed enforcement where you drive.
Either you want fuel economy or you want the extra power. Doesn't make sense to complain about lack of cylinder deactivation if you want to drive 80 MPH as part of your daily commute. Mileage obviously is not a priority if you must drive 80 MPH on average every day.

backy

Since I see many people whizzing by me at 80 mph every time I drive on the freeway, I thought it was a fair question to ask. I agree that it doesn't make sense to complain about fuel economy when you drive 80 mph, but then I remember several posts on other hybrid discussions to the effect, "I don't get the EPA rating for my hybrid on the highway!" "How fast do you drive?" "I keep up with the flow of traffic, which is 80-85 mph." Uh-huh.

gagrice

I agree with the speed of most freeway drivers I encounter. If you are driving at 70 mph on any San Diego or LA freeway you need to be in the far right lane or you get run over. There are cars that will go that fast and get in the 40+ mpg range. They are all diesel. The Honda Accord Diesel is a prime example. It is available in Europe and all the tests I have read say it is conservatively 52 mpg Imperial (mid 40s US). Many posters also report over 45 & 50 mpg with a VW TDI driving at high speeds. They will not give the 0-60 of the HAH but are much more efficient than any hybrid on the market today.

larsb

Neither the 2005 HAH nor any other Hybrid car or truck on the market is designed to achieve high miles per gallon ratings at 80+ MPH.

In fact, "no production street car" for sale in the USA is DESIGNED for frequent highway commutes at that speed.

The dirty diesels are capable of better MPG at those speeds, but you cannot get on a track, drive a TDI at 80 MPH to empty, and expect to get 45+ MPG - that ain't happnin......

307web

So, you are saying you don't have much traffic. People who commute in rush hour traffic aren't doing 80MPH in LA or San Diego.
Even if alot of people drive that fast during off peak hours, all you need to do is stay out of the fast lane and let them "whiz by you" on your left. Some people don't like feeling left behind by being passed and feel very compelled to "keep up" or go even faster than everyone else.
If cars are averaging 80-85 mph, the CHP is really failing to do their job.

gagrice

If you have not driven in that synchronized madness it just cannot be explained. Everyone going 70-80 mph with very little room between cars. Until some fool tries to make his turn-off at the last minute then it all comes to a crawl for a mile or so then back to the madness....