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Comments
It's true. We, the Honda fans, love the HAH for "more power, less gas". 30/38MPG is good enough. I can stretch it to 41MPG on highway easily by imagining my little egg under the accelerator pedal at all time.
I just made only 22.5 MPG on my EX V6 2002 200HP due to too much city driving. It is bad. But the power cannot be resisted. The HAH offers 30MPG in city is terrific.
As for the HAH, we love a little bit more luxury with the V6 power, the Honda quality and its superb reliability.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?article_id=1629§i- on_id=14&page_number=1
The European standards for measuring fuel economy are not the same as they are here. It's not just a matter of converting liters to gallons. They use different testing procedures and different mathematics to adjust for real world conditions.
As for the HAH not being good enough for green-minded people, it's exactly what my wife and I would buy to replace our TL.
BOTTOM LINE: They made two major changes from current Civic Hybrid:
- Installed an engine that can switch between V6 & V3 on demand
- Installed a small secondary A/C to keep cabin cool during engine stop
I don't think I would buy one. I prefer efficiency to speed. (Which is why I bought an Insight.) Also, I don't understand why the highway mpg is only 36? If the car operates on just 3 cylinders while highway cruising, which is 1.5 liters, shouldn't the highway MPG be up in the 40s?
So it sounds like the HAH provides at least 20% better (24 to 30 in the city) than the 6-cylinder Accord (not sure what the city ratings for the 4-cylinder Accord is).
You have to start somewhere. If HAH sells well, the idea is to convert more models to hybrid, each time increasing by double-digit percentages.
I think the Accord Hybrid is just an offshoot of the Honda philosophy to "put hybrid technology in any car" they want.
They just chose the Accord because it's one of the best selling cars they have.
The success of the Honda technology is that it takes the MPG that the model of that car got and improves it RELATIVE to the gas version of the same car.
That way, they get their technology in a "mainstream" car and can learn from it for future models.
just my opinion...........
Scion tC: 30 mpg
Ford Focus: 32 mpg
Chevrolet Aveo: 34 mpg
Mazda3: 34 mpg
Honda Civic LX: 38 mpg
Toyota Corolla: 38 mpg
Remember, these cars are supposed to appeal to economy minded buyers more than Accord Hybrid. How about comparing some comparables to Accord Hybrid?
Infiniti G35: 24 mpg (regular) / 25 mpg (premium)
Mazda6: 27 mpg
Nissan Maxima: 28 mpg
Toyota Camry: 29 mpg
Honda Accord: 30 mpg
Nissan Altima: 30 mpg
Pontiac Grand Prix: 30 mpg (27 mpg on premium for GTP)
And while Passat Diesel wouldn't compete in performance/power, its highway rating is 38 mpg.
I think Honda will have a hit....
OTOH, Accord is a true midsize, and in fact on the larger side of it. Of course, to categorize cars in terms of size, the EPA standard is to add cargo space to cabin size (not the cabin size itself). The front and rear passenger room in Accord is about 103 cu ft.
I think Honda will have a hit....
At this point in time, I expect that the PR impact of the car is a higher priority than the car's individual contribution to saving the planet or adding cash to their bottom line.
With that in mind...
The Insight was a poster child for how far the technology can be pushed. Maximum MPG was the goal with little concern for performance or practical considerations.
The HCH was an attempt to marry practicality with maximum mpg. Performance was a secondary priority. Some compromises had to be made there.
With the HAH, Honda was looking to maximize performance and practicality. MPG was a secondary priority.
With each vehicle some gains were made in every area. For example, the HAH does have a significant MPG gain vs the similar gas-only models. So even though mpg may have been a secondary priority, they did show improvements. But they did this without sacrificing much in terms of the primary goals (performance and practicality).
If the goal is to provide a hybrid with zero compromises, then I think the HAH is the closest to the end-zone. The Escape HEV is probably the next on that list with the Prius being third. Of course, the benefits of the hybrid system may not be as dramatic, but the disadvantages are all but eliminated. With vehicles like the upcoming Highlander hybrid, I think we're going to see even better incarnations of that "zero compromises" ideal.
(just a thought)
Hong.
I would be curious how you came up with that calculation. What do you really know about the potential of ANWR? You should come up and visit for yourself. It is a more viable source of oil than anywhere else in the USA. Plus it is much easier and safer on the environment than drilling off the coast of California or the Gulf of Mexico. There is no difference between ANWR and Prudhoe Bay Alaska. It is the same exact habitat. When Jimmy Carter flew out on a helicopter to look at ANWR, All he did was go fishing. He caught a couple of Arctic Char and headed back to Washington DC. I know I was there.
PS
We ate the fish he caught.
0-100 in 6.5 seconds
31/37 mpg
Based on reviews from C&D and Automobile the avge. city/highway gas mileage for a HAH was in the mid to high 20s range.
In National Post the reviewer managed to achieve 0-100 in 7.8 seconds.
I think Prius will continue its success if the competition is this weak.
C&D posted 0-60 time of 6.7s on Accord Hybrid and thats more like what is to be expected. And based on the review, they simply loved it. As for obtained mileage, when was the last time anybody questioned Corvette getting 15 mpg instead of 20-28 mpg that it gets rated with?
I haven't read the Automobile review yet, but C&D burned rubber from 0-30 mph. They also ran acceleration and performance testing. Under driving conditions like that you'll use more gas. You'll see the same magazines getting 18 mpg with a regular Accord. Driving like a sane person will produce much different results.
That said, I'm expecting the HAH to fall between 26-35 mpg in real life driving. That's still a worthwhile increase over the non-hybrid V6.
Oh, I think there's room for plenty more. The Prius is slotted somewhere between the HCH and the HAH. I think it's winning lots of buyers because of its looks. Eco-minded people who want everyone to know they are eco-minded love the extraverted style. Neither the Accord nor Civic offer that "look", so the Prius will continue to earn sales within that niche.
However... there are obviously plenty of buyers who are looking for more conventional hybrids with fewer compromises. The number of buyers who have already signed up for the Escape HEV illustrates the desire for a hybrid with the full utility of a more conventional vehicle. I haven't seen numbers for it yet, but the hype around the HAH certainly suggests the same.
As for the competition being "weak"... well... I'll see you at the stop lights, pokey.
Your statement above is correct. I myself love the looks of the Prius. It looks like lthe car of the future. Something like Leanord Nimoy would drive.
In fact I saw some pictures of a Honda concept car that sort of looks like a future Insight with four seats. Maybe Honda is getting the message? Many people(not all) desire cars that are differentiated from the average vehicle. I believe the Insight's lack of success has more to do with it being unpractical versus its styling
Honda has a history of introducing unconventional vehicles(CRX,Prelude,s2000) and should continue that tradition. IMO today's Civic and Accord are one of the most conventianlly boring cars that are selling today.
Regarding your challenge: See you at a stop light sometime in 2006. After I win a lottery in 2006 I will be driving a Hybrid BMW x5 with a torque of 1000nm. ;p
For your information, my Accord EX V6 with 195K Miles is still worth $4,950 according to Kelly Blue book. Therefore, the Honda's resale value is best. So, "Go with Honda and/or Acura".
OK let us forget appearances.
If you believe the HAH can get 30/38 mpg and hits 100m in 6.5seconds then you will believe that this a good car. Unfortunately what I read so far indicates that these HAH specs are a myth. Everyone is entitled to believe in their own myths---Greek gods, HAH specs----whatever.
Sorry, I have to admit that the HAH's appearance with the little spoiler is more intelligent, more sporty and more attractive than the Prius and 100% surely it is faster than the Prius. HAH has instant mobility system, no spare tire (IMS). Also, I do believe the HAH's 30/38 MPG is true. My V6 EX gets 32+ MPG on the highway even though sticker MPG is only 30 on highway.
I do not mean to compare orange with apple but I test drove carefully the Camry V6 XLE and I chose the V6 Accord. If you want performance and style go with Accord, if you want smooth and soft ride go with Camry/Prius. I have checked with so many mechanics and auto professionals/ critics and they all agree with me on that assessment.
from my perspective there are other areas for comparison.
such as driving dynamics.
the HAH pretty much drives like a regular accord where as the ride and handling of the prius makes the corolla seem like a sports car.
the accord is an excellent imitation of a near luxury car while the prius has all the feeling of a somewhat roomy economy car.
long term comfort.
good luck to your back if you drive a prius for extended period of time. with top priority being fuel economy, having sufficient padding in the seats isn't.
comparing the accord to the prius really is like comparing apples and oranges. no the HAH doesn't get the gas of the prius but it's such a better car in other ways.
for those of us where fuel economy isn't the upmost priority, we'll have to wait for the camry hybrid for a choice from a toyota sedan.
2005 Acura RL
Base MSRP: $49,470 USD
0-60: 6.7 seconds
70-0: 180 feet
Roadholding: .87 g
Interior room: 99 cubic feet
Luggage space: 13 cubic feet
Fuel economy: EPA 18/26, C/D observed 19
2005 Honda Accord Hybrid
MSRP w/navigation: $32,000 USD (est.)
0-60: 6.7 seconds
70-0: 193 feet
Roadholding: .78 g
Interior room: 103 cubic feet
Luggage space: 11 cubic feet
Fuel economy: EPA 30/37, C/D observed 26
So for only $17,500 more you can get the same acceleration, better roadholding (the Acura has AWD), and better braking, plus 2 cubic feet more trunk space. Or if the HAH handles and stops good enough for you, you can save $17,500 + tax up front and get more interior room plus 37% better fuel economy based on C/D's tests.
2005 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI
Base MSRP: $50,000 USD (est.)
0-60: 7.1 seconds
70-0: 173 feet
Roadholding: .83 g
Fuel economy: EPA 27/37, C/D observed 24
2005 Honda Accord Hybrid
Base MSRP: $30,000 USD (est.)
0-60: 6.7 seconds
70-0: 193 feet
Roadholding: .78 g
Fuel economy: EPA 30/37, C/D observed 26
So for only $20,000 more you can get a slower car with lower fuel economy and higher emissions, but with better braking and roadholding. Will the Mercedes retain more value? Maybe. Will that overcome the $20,000+ starting difference? Unlikely. Will it be as reliable as the Honda? Unlikely. According to one source, CR, the predicted reliability for the E-class is much worse than average; for the Accord, better than average. The IMA technology has been reliable also, as the HCH's reliability has been much better than average. Take your pick.
On the contrary, I care very much about new auto technology/ new features, reliability, durability, practicability, cost justification, horse power, torque, 0-60, interior room, track records of the car, etc. I buy after extensive research and comparison.
It really is not a fair comparison. I seriously doubt the HAH will outperform the E320. That would not be my criteria for purchase anyway. I always look at long term ownership. How will the car hold up for at least 15-20 years. I would be replacing a 1990 LS400 Lexus. It has a little over 80k miles. To many people that is just broke in. However the Lexus has several nagging defects that are too expensive to fix ($1200 for a defective fuel gauge). So it is time to get a new car. The Lexus replaced a 20 year old Mercedes 300d that was in like new condition. The Lexus is not as reliable for the long haul as the old Mercedes was. I also doubt the HAH will be running like new 15-20 years from now. You get what you pay for most of the time.
PS
I'll watch for viet in his new HAH, and race him to 150 mph...
I hope you receive 20 years of trouble-free service from your next car as you did with your 300D. I see many 15 year old Accords running around, which is remarkable given what road salt does to car bodies in my part of the country, so I don't know that the HAH won't still be around in 15-20 years, especially if the owner puts only 80k miles on it in 15 years as you have done with your Lexus.
http://cars.about.com/b/a/119073.htm
That's enough to yield 0-60 mph acceleration in an estimated 6.8 seconds, which is slightly quicker than an equivalent gasoline-powered E-Class sedan that uses a 271-horsepower engine with far lower torque output.
http://www.valvoline.com/carcare/articleviewer.asp?pg=dsm20040701- mb
http://www.jsonline.com/wheels/test/may04/228584.asp
http://www.bullz-eye.com/carreviews/2004/mercedes-benz_e320_cdi.h- tm
http://www.yenra.com/mercedes-cdi/
I am going to buy 1 HAH on Dec 3, 04 and the second HAH in about 6 months to 1 year. Backy is very knowledgeable (as I am or more than I am) about HAH and Accord. Top speed for the Accord is about a little more than 130 MPH only. I do expect the HAH's MPG is above 30/38. I just sent you guys a link to demonstrate that some Civic Hybrid's drivers did achieve 60MPG on their Civic Hybrids. The "egg under gal pedal" trick did help them achieve that terrific MPG. I honestly have admired Honda's engineers for their dedication and intelligence to make Honda and Acura one of best cars in the world.
My 92 Accord LX I4 at 230K mile after the tune still smoothly revved up its engine proudly like a little happy kitten. I insist that that engine after the tune revved up so smoothly like day one. My brother's Benz got so much problems at less than 100K miles. Now, he drives a Honda CRV I4 and vowed that he will buy another Honda CRV soon. I have been always absolutely happy with my line of Hondas from a little Civic to the Accord EX V6. No complaints on Honda automobiles whatsoever. Remember HAH is the first V6 Hybrid on the globe. It has 255 HP but I do hope it will generate more than 255 HP and it is real fast and precise.
One thing about the reviews... one (tested at 6.8 seconds 0-60) noted that the E320 was about 200 pounds lighter than the car C/D tested. I wonder why that is?
At least it's good to know that the diesel rattle has been mostly banished: "... you might hear a slight engine rattle now and then...". Just enough to let you know you are driving a diesel. Like the special gauges on the HAH--just enough to let you know you are driving a hybrid.
I believe this is the claim of Honda & Edmund's. I am not sure why I am even in this discussion as 0-60 is so far down my list of importance, it would not affect my purchase at all. I guess it is my dismay at the logic of a high performance hybrid. Just put a 300 hp V6 in the Accord and blow the windows out of the hybrid. Much simpler and cheaper...
In fact, Honda claims that 0-to-60-mph times have been reduced by a full half-second to 7.5 seconds (compared to an EX V6 sedan).
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/honda/accord/100452039/roadtestar- - ticle.html?articleId=103272&tid=edmunds.e.roadtests.content..- - .Honda*
PS
Mercedes claims 0-60 in 6.6 secs for the E320 CDI.
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/models/features/specs/o- verview_engine.jsp?spec=3&menu=3_1&modelCode=E320CDI&- class=05_C
Personally I'd rather go buy what drivers have achieved in actual tests, rather than manufacturer claims as to a car's specs. Why? Ever hear of the Mazda RX-8 and Mazda's claims for horsepower? How about the Prius? Toyota claimed "10 seconds 0-60" but only one published test, from MT, has ever reached that number.
P.S. One of the articles you linked to earlier stated that Mercedes claims 6.8 seconds 0-60 for the E320 CDI. Maybe one of their spokespeople was more optimistic than the other? ;-)
Going to that extreme to find a worthy competitor for the Honda just proves the hybrid technology is worth something.
Despite this the 3 series has remained the top Sports Sedan in terms of performance/handling.
If only the world could be so simple to look solely at 0-60 as the be alll and end all.
Comparing an MB320 with an HAH is a joke! A better comparison as Gagrice mentioned would be between an Acura RL and an MB320 diesel.
Regarding MB reliability. My wife's 83 MB300T has been bullet proof. We intend to keep it for another few decades(unless a new emissions law will ban this vehicle)
To save fuel costs. ;-)
Why is the HAH to Acura RL comparison not a good one? Similar size (particularly in interior room), similar performance, similar luxury (ok, you get wood trim on the RL), even the same manufacturer. The main differences are that the HAH gets much better fuel economy while the RL has AWD and an advantage in braking and roadholding. Plus the RL costs a lot more.
Diesels are rougher and generally noisier than the petrol counterparts for the same vehicle. Meanwhile, the HAH is less noisey than the ICE only version of the car. Without a direct comparison of sones or decibels it's difficult to make a judgement, but given the praise the HAH has received I think it's a fair bet that it would be the winner on that front.
The diesel also suffers in the air pollution department. The TDI scores a 4 on the Green Vehicle Guide. The HAH is not yet rated, but even the standard Accord V6 scores an 8 or 9. Buyers looking to do their part in reducing our use of oil will be happy with the TDI, but not those looking to be green. (Not to mention the TDI can't be sold in the greener states.)
I just think there's a lot more to the comparison than just 0-60 and fuel economy.