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If you don't get any of the extra $2-3000 that a HAH will cost over a regular Accord V6 back when you sell it after seven years, is that a big deal? You would have enjoyed the car for those seven years, enjoyed the fuel efficiency and power. It's not like you got nothing for the extra money.
But right now, all we have the the HISTORICAL FACT that ___cars higher up in the same model line chain (DX, LX, EX, Hybrid) ALWAYS sell for more at resale/trade time___ in the modern History of US auto resale values.
So, no, the premium will not be fully repaid EVER - but it's not going to be HURT down the line by battery replacement woes, I'd stake my job and reputation on that - if it were the case, the circa 1997 Japanese Priuses would be all over the news for a rash of battery replacements.
""You mean to tell me that a $5 piece of metal that says 'Acura' suddenly makes a $30,000 Accord okay?????""
"I did not say rebadge an existing hybird Honda Accord into a Hybrid Acura Accord!"
.
Okay. Please clarify what you meant. You mean take an Acura TL and turn it into a Hybrid?
Also I'm not familiar with the Honda/Accord line. Is it similar to the Dodge/Chrysler line where you have the same car, but different names?
Dodge Stratus = Chrysler Sebring
Is there an Acura equivalent to a Honda Accord?
Troy
In a way. The Acura TSX is the Accord for other countries. In the past, the Legend was based on the (U.S.) Accord platform, but I don't know if any current Acuras, like the TL perhaps, are based on the U.S. Accord platform.
7 years ago, you made a conscious decision to purchase the I4 instead of the V6 in your EX-L trimmed Accord and probably saved $2,000 at the time. Now you are telling me you are willing to spend an extra $8,000 more for that V6 power and possibly a small increase in fuel economy without a powered sunroof?
I saved $1.2K in autumn 1997 when I got the EX-L. Actually, I could have saved $800 by getting V6 (LXV6) but, usually, I set priorities and budget before I get anything. Even EXV6 was within my budget, I went with the more logical, middle approach.
I’ve to replace my Accord down the road, and Acura TSX has held its appeal. On the other side, I have also considered going for Acura TL. Now, HAH arrives and sits right in the middle of the two cars that I have considering, and well within my budget, that has to include my needs and wants. Would I want moon roof? Sure, but there are more things to be looked at than just that. I didn’t pay $3K premium to get moon roof equipped EX-L over Accord LX. There were other things involved in the decision.
Remember, near luxury market and above isn’t about needs alone. The “want factor” starts to position itself. You’re not going to be able to convince anybody to get I-4 if the person wants and can afford a powerful V6 (or V8), hybrid or not. Actually, you would have hard time convincing an Accord EX-L buyer to consider Accord DX. Right there is $8K in savings!
As for price comparisons, I refrain from comparing MSRP for one to discounted price for another. If market accepts a product, it may be worthy of going at MSRP. I have purchased three new cars, and never paid MSRP. A 10-12% off MSRP formula has worked quite well for me. So, hold on to your crystal ball.
I saved $1.2K in autumn 1997 when I got the EX-L. Actually, I could have saved $800 by getting V6 (LXV6) but, usually, I set priorities and budget before I get anything. Even EXV6 was within my budget, I went with the more logical, middle approach.
___Today that is a $2,000 (V6 or V6 w/ NAVI) or $8,000 (AH V6 or V6 w/ NAVI) decision. You really do not want to know what the RWTIV thread says about the Accord LX V6. It is an albatross from the used car sales guys that participate in the Car auctions around the country on a weekly basis. Anyway, you went with the more logical, middle approach and I bet you will do the same again. Please keep us informed early next month as to what you have decided upon. If you want an AH by Christmas (if you are lucky), you will probably have had to had a deposit down on it already?
Acura TSX has held its appeal. On the other side, I have also considered going for Acura TL.
___I also like the TSX and TL but the TSX is actually the Euro Accord and is smaller. The hopped up std. Accord I4 in it has another 40 ponies but not much more torque as well as Accord V6 type FE.
The “want factor” starts to position itself. You’re not going to be able to convince anybody to get I-4 if the person wants and can afford a powerful V6 (or V8), hybrid or not. Actually, you would have hard time convincing an Accord EX-L buyer to consider Accord DX. Right there is $8K in savings!
___First off, I am not comparing the std. EX/LX/DX here but the same car (EX-L w/ NAVI) with the same in the AH other then the V6 Hybridized drivetrain minus the powered sunroof. Near Luxury from the driving standpoint will be exactly the same between both vehicles unless you want to drive WOT in which case, the Hybrid walks away. This is what everyone must decide if it is worth $8,000 for.
As for price comparisons, I refrain from comparing MSRP for one to discounted price for another. If market accepts a product, it may be worthy of going at MSRP. I have purchased three new cars, and never paid MSRP. A 10-12% off MSRP formula has worked quite well for me. So, hold on to your crystal ball.
___As we speak and throughout the rest of this year, it will be MSRP for the AH (or more) and < = invoice on the I4 and V6. You can refrain to speak of it all you want but this is a market reality just as the Prius II has held onto its MSRP and MSRP + prices from 95% + of dealers in the US over the past year. When there is a shortage of automobiles, there is a premium price unfortunately. A nice example Care to try and find a Prius II for 10 - 12% below MSRP? There are only supposedly 20,000 AH’s heading this way so you can just imagine what you will have to pay to own one vs. wishing what you would like to pay for one.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I dont blame you for not caring about my choices, nor do I really care for your choices. In addition, I do not care about the Altima as much you do!So at least we got that out in the air.
I’ve brought this before, but people don’t seem to take as much issue about $2K options (example, NAV) yet create a hoopla about addition of hybrid power train components that probably costs as much! Sure navigation system is adding some convenience that you wouldn’t need to a paper map. But, a hybrid power train is doing its own thing, in this case, adding performance and improving fuel economy! Why is this, an issue? Explain.
As for pricing, I couldn’t less for it until I’m ready to buy the car. Automakers CANNOT price cars based on ongoing price of the models. You’re not going to see next year’s Accord EX carry the TMV price as the MSRP, would you?
I don’t know if you know this, but back in late 1997 and early 1998, Accord V6 had a wait list and were selling at MSRP. So, why this at MSRP issue being used against hybrid? It is about demand and supply after all. And I’m in no hurry to replace my current Accord, yet. With 107K miles, it feels new except for couple of door dings and some worn out leather.
The price differential between EX-L and EXV6 and Hybrid is primarily due to difference in attitude by way of different drive train. You shouldn’t toss out the difference that makes the difference. Think about it. Why would you toss out the difference that V6 brings into Accord EXV6, and compare the car to EX-L and question a $2K premium?
___I don’t believe in $2,000 markups for a larger ICE and TCS either but that is ~ what the market will bare nowadays. The market demanding $8,000 more is another issue altogether.
I’ve brought this before, but people don’t seem to take as much issue about $2K options (example, NAV) yet create a hoopla about addition of hybrid power train components that probably costs as much! Sure navigation system is adding some convenience that you wouldn’t need to a paper map. But, a hybrid power train is doing its own thing, in this case, adding performance and improving fuel economy! Why is this, an issue? Explain.
___You can equip both the EX-L and AH without NAVI if you wish. You cannot however dequip the AH anymore then that. In both cases, it is still an $8,000 delta.
As for pricing, I couldn’t less for it until I’m ready to buy the car. Automakers CANNOT price cars based on ongoing price of the models. You’re not going to see next year’s Accord EX carry the TMV price as the MSRP, would you?
___I base prices of cars for what I can actually purchase them for, not what the manufacturer says is MSRP. In other words, I won’t be picking up an AH. Given just 20,000 of them are headed our way, if you want an AH in the next 6 months, you will probably pay MSRP or MSRP + just as the Prius II and Escape HEV’s are going for at most dealerships right now. I don’t know how much more real world there is then that. As I have already posted, I have solid pricing on a brand new 04’s and semi-solid pricing on 05 EX-L’s w/ NAVI. If I were to purchase today, you can darn well bet I would beat Edmunds TMV on the non-hybrid because it is easy to do. Beating MSRP on the AH when it arrives? Not a chance.
I don’t know if you know this, but back in late 1997 and early 1998, Accord V6 had a wait list and were selling at MSRP. So, why this at MSRP issue being used against hybrid?
___I may have already brought enough anecdotal evidence to the table in regards to this question
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The market also realizes that additional power and refinement (and this time with added fuel economy) costs. If it didn't we will see HAH going at near invoice. Either way, you lose. ;-)
You can equip both the EX-L and AH without NAVI if you wish.
Of course! But that wasn't my point to start with. I questioned the logic of not questioning a $2K premium for something like NAV, but making a big deal out of $2-3K premium for hybrid technology.
I base prices of cars for what I can actually purchase them for, not what the manufacturer says is MSRP.
Couple of problems with this logic. One, manufacturers don't come up with MSRP based on the "current market price", the product isn't out yet!
And two, the product isn't out yet, the price is unknown (MSRP or the market price) so what are you comparing? Clearly on assumptions construed as facts.
Sure, just like the HCH. Or the Prius--my price was $800 under MSRP, had I taken delivery. Just because you don't think you could negotiate a discount on a HAH doesn't mean others can't. Plus if no one buys a HAH, as gagrice believes, there'll be huge discounts on the HAH, won't there?
I used TMV because it is a published figure based on localized purchase data, available on most every car. So it is good for comparisons in a public forum like this. Better than, say, a price that a particular individual has been able to negotiate in a particular city under particular conditions.
I know you are envious of my two Hyundais, but you don't really need to keep bringing them up here--I don't think other people really care about them in this discussion about the HAH.
And I understand things just fine. It's quite easy because most of what you say is repetitive.
There may be a lot of bad batteries. I cannot read Japanese so would not know. I wonder if they had the same warranty as the original Prius in the USA. It was bumper to bumper for 8 years 100k miles at least in San Diego where I tested one.
Forget about $8K now, in Accord, it has been from $12K at of now, an additional $2-4K only adds a little to the top end.
___You are the one that is going to have to swallow that premium, not me?
The market also realizes that additional power and refinement (and this time with added fuel economy) costs. If it didn't we will see HAH going at near invoice. Either way, you lose. ;-)
___The TCO for the AH will more then likely be up and around $0.48 - $0.52/mile on the AH vs. the EX-L w/ NAVI’s $0.42 when purchased at invoice The $0.48 is based off an AH at $28,000. Do you really believe you have a chance to hit that target in the next 12 months? If you purchase the AH, you lose by at best, ~ $0.08/mile vs. the better equipped EX-L w/ NAVI I4 which still offers more performance then your present Accord. Who wins or loses depends on which automobile they choose. With the above, I think you can pick a winner now ;-)
Of course! But that wasn't my point to start with. I questioned the logic of not questioning a $2K premium for something like NAV, but making a big deal out of $2-3K premium for hybrid technology.
___Now it’s a $2,000 to $3,000 Premium? Even if you were to look at the MSRP of the V6 w/ NAVI to the expected MSRP of the AH at $32K, there is at least a $3,300 premium if you paid MSRP for both. When this premium comes down to the $2K or less range and you can pick up an AH for invoice or less, then it will begin to make more sense. Right now? It is unfortunately a lot more then that given what you can pick up the I4 and V6 for today
Couple of problems with this logic. One, manufacturers don't come up with MSRP based on the "current market price", the product isn't out yet!
___I think we have all read enough about the $30K and $32K w/ NAVI pricing to begin believing it. If not, there might be an actual $12,000 Delta! Care to place your deposit down now? The one help is that the HCH’s MSRP to Invoice delta is a larger amount then the Civic EX 4-dr. - SAB’s - w/ Auto. With that, once the AH’s prices do begin to fall, the premium should be in the $3,100 - $3,200 range in 3 or 4 years That is if Honda allows the same manufacture to dealer rebates as rest of the Accord lineup?
MSRP – Invoice Delta = $1,591 Civic EX 4 dr. w/ Auto and SAB
MSRP – Invoice Delta = $1,796 HCH 4 dr. w/ CVT and SAB
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Sure, just like the HCH. Or the Prius--my price was $800 under MSRP, had I taken delivery. Just because you don't think you could negotiate a discount on a HAH doesn't mean others can't.
___I thought it was $500 from the dealership in Minnesota unless they couldn’t get you the 04 in time for the 05 release and then you would receive a $300 rebate from Toyota to cover the increase in MSRP of the 05’s? Please explain how the extra $300 came about other then the Toyota rebate which you wouldn’t have qualified for given he 04 arrived? And if so, why are you speaking of $2 and $3K premiums when you can pick up a regular I4 or V6 for far below invoice given your skill.
used TMV because it is a published figure based on localized purchase data, available on most every car. So it is good for comparisons in a public forum like this. Better than, say, a price that a particular individual has been able to negotiate in a particular city under particular conditions.
___You just said you negotiated a Prius for $800 below MSRP. Did you want to take a look at the TMV of a Prius II even today? So is TMV what you would pick up a std. Accord for or is it invoice or below like most would purchase one for. Is the AH going to be found at MSRP, TMV, or do you believe you can find it for a touch under MSRP?
I know you are envious of my two Hyundais, but you don't really need to keep bringing them up here--I don't think other people really care about them in this discussion about the HAH.
___Envious? Given the resale and reliability, I would never own one myself actually
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Not everything needs to be measured in dollars. If you really want to discuss value, Accord LX would be the better choice of all. But, thats hardly a bottom line in my purchase decision.
More than me, you sound eager to see me write a check. I've told you before, and will do so again, I've not written a check at MSRP on any of my cars. And I don't think HAH would need to be as well, while I have enough time to look for bargain.
And although I will keep looking for it, price placement argument of any model against others makes sense to me at MSRP, not at what I or others pay. Thats the proper way to go about comparisons.
Is the AH going to be found at MSRP, TMV, or do you believe you can find it for a touch under MSRP?
I think I've already covered that subject, but to review for you: I think initially the HAH will be sold at list because there will be very low supply. That means TMV = MSRP. Then one of two things will happen: 1) Honda will easily sell all the HAHs it can make, at least until direct competition appears in the form of the Camry hybrid, Altima hybrid, and maybe the Highlander hybrid (my view), or 2) Honda will sell no HAHs because they are overpriced (view of gagrice et. al.) and dealers will start discounting them, in which case TMV < MSRP and buyers will be able to get them for under MSRP.
Of course Wayne! If it comes to it, I will be ready to pay $12-14K premium over Accord DX, because that will get me something I cannot only afford, but want as well!
___So you aren’t quite ready to write that $32,000/$30,000 check for the AH w/ NAVI/AH w/out NAVI vs. the $24,000/$22,000 EX-L w/ NAVI/EX-L w/out NAVI then I take it?
Not everything needs to be measured in dollars. If you really want to discuss value, Accord LX would be the better choice of all. But, that’s hardly a bottom line in my purchase decision.
___The LX is not equipped similar to the EX-L w/ NAVI and the AH w/ NAVI. Since this is about the AH, you might as well play with a similar deck
More than me, you sound eager to see me write a check. I've told you before, and will do so again, I've not written a check at MSRP on any of my cars. And I don't think HAH would need to be as well, while I have enough time to look for bargain.
___I guess it will be quite some time before you replace your current Accord EX-L then?
And although I will keep looking for it, price placement argument of any model against others makes sense to me at MSRP, not at what I or others pay. Thats the proper way to go about comparisons.
___You know as well as I do that when it comes time to write that check for whichever Accord you will eventually choose (if it’s even an Accord?), it will be actual $’s to purchase, not MSRP that you will be concerned with no matter the MSRP vs. MSRP debate with any comparison that can be created. Of course the Prius folks are still stuck at MSRP for the most part vs. everything else but that’s just them ;-)
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
As for your LX versus EX-L argument, Accord EX-L and HAH aren't identical either. Thats why there is a model above EX-L! And HAH happens to be a model above EX-V6! And all along, you have been ignoring the model that commands its own premium without adding stuff above EX-L, aren't you? Well, traction control is one quick difference that might be there.
As for MSRP argument, remember my price quote on my Accord EX-L? I didn't write a check for $23,145 (plus destination) but thats the number I use to compare models from its era. Without negotiations, MSRP is the number your dealer is going to quote you on Accord that is selling like hotcakes (EX-L and EX-V6 were back then). However, I did manage to shave about 10% off it, but not everybody would be able to claim it. Whats the standard price? The MSRP, and you go from there. I don't use unknown and variables to benchmark for comparisons.
I don't recall saying Honda would not find suckers for this joke of a vehicle. It just seems ridiculous to buy a $30k Accord HAH, when you can buy a fully loaded Honda Pilot that hauls 8 people in just as much luxury and comfort for the same amount. You get more safety and way more utility and a better looking vehicle. If you are willing to spend $30k to $35k there is a plethora of vehicles that are far superior to a Honda Accord.
I'm not ready to spend $22-24K for Accord EX-L either! Because that’s not the car I want. TSX would be my easy pick over it. Between TSX and HAH, there is a tie going at this time.
___Well, that’s odd given the TSX is a smaller and less powerful car then even the std. V6 EX? Good for you however as IIRC, the TSX’s w/ NAVI have been hitting the pavement at or around $27K. I will have to look it up to make sure that is with NAVI? Can you say another $5K premium for the AH over and above the TSX? You are also probably aware given it was mentioned a few posts ago that the TSX uses the Accord I4’s ICE although it is hopped up a bit for more power when using Premium fuel.
___A side bar I do not use 91 Octane Premium Unleaded in the MDX although for maximum output it is recommended. Given my wife and I will never use its 260 HP capability, there is no need to waste the extra $3.00 or $4.00 at each and every fuel stop I bet you find the same with TSX’s 200 HP on tap when running 91 Octane Premium Unleaded given you won’t ever need it. Just settle for the 180 Ponies or so on Regular Unleaded and you should be fine although that places you very close to the I4 EX-L’s performance territory again? God knows that might not be fast enough for you to keep up with all those 18-wheelers out on the highways and Kia’s and Hyundai’s around town blocking your way ;-)
As for your LX versus EX-L argument, Accord EX-L and HAH aren't identical either. Thats why there is a model above EX-L! And HAH happens to be a model above EX-V6! And all along, you have been ignoring the model that commands its own premium without adding stuff above EX-L, aren't you? Well, traction control is one quick difference that might be there.
___Coming from Texas, which are you going to use more, the EX-L’s sunroof minus TCS or the AH’s TCS minus the sunroof? I think we both know the answer to that question ;-)
As for MSRP argument, remember my price quote on my Accord EX-L? I didn't write a check for $23,145 (plus destination) but thats the number I use to compare models from its era. Without negotiations, MSRP is the number your dealer is going to quote you on Accord that is selling like hotcakes (EX-L and EX-V6 were back then). However, I did manage to shave about 10% off it, but not everybody would be able to claim it. Whats the standard price? The MSRP, and you go from there. I don't use unknown and variables to benchmark for comparisons.
___As stated above, you can compare automobiles at MSRP but you also don’t pay MSRP when you don’t have to. For the AH, you will. For the std. EX-L’s w/ or w/out NAVI and the TSX, you won’t so why compare MSRP of the non-hybrids to MSRP of the AH when that is not what you or anyone reading this thread will sign the check for?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
This topic is for those who are interested in finding out more and sharing information about the upcoming Accord Hybrid, not for bashing a vehicle that no one on this board has even test driven.
Here's a hot tip:
If you are already dead set against the HAH, you're probably in the wrong discussion.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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Review your vehicle
By the way, this same joke will smoke any E class Mercedes save AMG, have far better reliability, great resale. I know the Merc is not a good comparison, just wanted to demonstrate the abilities of this Jewel.
Robersmx,
good of you to admit that! Finally we do agree. Independent of price the HAH is a worthy vehicle.
But once the HAH is measured in dollars the word unworthy becomes a more appropriate term.
The above statement indicates great confusion. If a HAH is not comparable to a Mercedes Benz, why compare it! Because it is more reliable! Have you seen the latest stats on the reliability of Hyundais. Based on your definition Hyundais are superior cars to Honda, Porsches and most other cars available for sale.
Your other criteria is resale value Depends on the vehicles within MB. If you are talking about the notorious m35 SUVs, you maybe right. Please take a look at resale values for most MB vehicles. In Canada, most MBs are still renowned for their resale values.
So what is your point?
""You mean to tell me that a $5 piece of metal that says 'Acura' suddenly makes a $30,000 Accord okay?????""
"I did not say rebadge an existing hybird Honda Accord into a Hybrid Acura Accord!"
.
Okay. Please clarify what you meant. You mean take an Acura TL and turn it into a Hybrid?
Troy
IIRC, my last post dealt with TSX above EX-L. But if you now want to use EXV6: I get something in TSX that I don’t in EXV6, and vice versa. It is not always about buying the largest or the most powerful car around, but a car/trim that appeals and falls within budget.
the TSX’s w/ NAVI have been hitting the pavement at or around $27K. I will have to look it up to make sure that is with NAVI? Can you say another $5K premium for the AH over and above the TSX?
I’m willing to go up to $35K (TL, and if I get it, will be with NAV). So, HAH falls in the middle.
You are also probably aware given it was mentioned a few posts ago that the TSX uses the Accord I4’s ICE although it is hopped up a bit for more power when using Premium fuel.
You’re telling me! :-)
It is not just use of premium gas, the 2.4 in TSX is set up differently, and has VTEC applied at both ends. And you should be able to tell by now that I’m looking into near luxury market, not into basic needs. If I weren’t, like I said earlier, Accord DX or LX would make far more sense. HAH isn’t getting a consideration solely for $$$ savings purposes, it is a combination of several things, including that. Of course, without experiencing it in person, I couldn’t tell if it will continue to sway my opinion away from TL/TSX duo. But based on reviews, it has got me interested.
Coming from Texas, which are you going to use more, the EX-L’s sunroof minus TCS or the AH’s TCS minus the sunroof? I think we both know the answer to that question ;-)
Ideally, I would like to have both because there are times when I have to get my car rolling in second gear, and those are the days I don’t get to use the moon roof. It would had been nice for HAH to have moon roof, but it doesn’t kill the deal. My other car will have it anyway (and likely the current EX-L, as HAH/TSX could replace the Civic EX).
As stated above, you can compare automobiles at MSRP but you also don’t pay MSRP when you don’t have to.
Certainly not! But what I pay isn’t necessarily the price everyone pays! It makes no sense for me to compare unknowns. At least, I couldn’t do it. MSRP exists for a reason, but you are trying to use it as a disadvantage well before it is announced! Sure we have a vague idea of what it will be like, but it is just that, an idea. Did you think you would pay invoice on 2005 Accord EX-L when 2004s were sitting on the lot?
The bottom line: MSRP does not fluctuate based on market price through the year. This is as much true for hybrids as is for non-hybrids. If I were to visit a Honda dealership today, what price would the sales person come to me for an Odyssey EX-L with? Ideas?
Possibly a TL? Possibly a TSX? Definitely a RL!! I believe such vehicles would get a similar warm reception as the Lexus RX400H.
Despite what the majority may feel, IMO, I believe hybrid technology should be focused on emission/gas efficiency and not performance. Despite the potential success of the above vehicles, I myself would not waste my money on them.
All hybrids are geared toward performance. An Insight may be driven using gas power alone. But the performance of that 1.0L engine is such that most drivers would curse at the thing every time they got behind the wheel. Adding IMA provides enough of a performance boost that the car performs in a manner that is more acceptable.
Now, as I'm sure you are aware, even with the electric assist powering the Insight performance levels are not enough for the majority of drivers on our roads.
From my perspective, the performance of the HCH is adequate for my daily driving needs. I could drive a lawn mover to work and it would get the job done, but the HCH is more in line with the performance I want. But even the HCH isn't enough for some.
If you're starting to grasp the idea that everyone has their own ideas on what acceptable performance really is, you'd be on target. Everybody has their own opinion.
For those who want the performance of a strong V6, and still like the notion of saving fuel, the HAH is currently the only game in town. That is the buyers prerogative. Performance is integral to the goal of a hybrid. It is not something you can discard as irrelevant.
I am not anti-performance. If I buy a hybrid my key criteria will be gas mileage. Otherwise I would get a non-hybrid vehicle. If I can be more frugal and faster with a hybrid I would not complain. But my priority would be frugality over performance.
The upcoming HCH may be closer to the definition of a car I am looking for! The only drawback would be space for my family. Another priority that I cannot forget. This is why I love the idea of a reasonably priced 4 cyl. HAH or Toyota Camry.
The Civic Hybrid is already on the market (about 3 years now).
There are several in this thread who, like you, feel that the performance advantage provided by the HAH is more or less moot. That it has little or no value to the buyers who might purchase a hybrid.
My last post was simply a counterpoint to that position.
I submit that this Accord may attract those buyers who would never have considered a hybrid before. There are many buyers who feel that the price premium of a hybrid is too high given that the performance of the existing vehicles falls below that of the ICE-only alternatives.
In short, the HAH is not a car for the buyer who considers economy priority number 1. It will, however, attract those who consider performance to be a higher priority, and introduce them into the hybrid fold. No other hybrid can do that.
Not necessarily. Depends on the "worth" you're after, so it cannot (and shouldnot) be generalized. I've pointed out these before, and haven't heard back a logical response:
-this ain't the first time a mainstream midsize sedan has approached $30K price tag
- why is $2-2.5K premium that hybrid technology by itself adds to the price tag a bigger deal than $2K options like Navigation system?
Guess what BMW’s $2.3K “premium package” adds to BMW 325i .
- 8-way power front seats with 2-way manual headrests; 3-driver memory for exterior mirror and seat positions; automatic tilt-down of passenger’s side-view mirror when vehicle is shifted into reverse gear
- Automatic-dimming inside rear-view mirror
- 4-function on-board computer
- BMW Assist integrated wireless communication system
- 4-way power lumbar support for front seats
This goes on to show the “worth” of $2.3K in near luxury segment. You’ve got to be able to see it before you establish generalized conclusions.
The upcoming HCH may be closer to the definition of a car I am looking for! The only drawback would be space for my family
There we go! HCH would be too small, but is 325i that you’re considering as an alternative to Prius is big? I don't think the point of contention is whether HAH is worth it or not, it is more about... does not matter, I don't like it! (so I'm going to question others' choices).
If I buy a hybrid my key criteria will be gas mileage. Otherwise I would get a non-hybrid vehicle.
Why? And what is your key criteria based off? You must have a baseline.
My reason for calling the car a JOKE has nothing to do with it's performance which I am sure is stellar. It has to do with the concept of hybrids being fuel efficient and having cleaner emissions. This car does not accomplish either from the articles I have read. I believe with a little engineering the Accord V6 with VCM alone can accomplish equally as good performance and economy. Thus not sullying the hybrid business with cars that are neither economical or cleaner burning than other cars in the same class.
I will take all my disparageing remarks back if the car gets an AT-PZEV rating from the EPA. Then I will feel it has acoomplished something it should have accomplished. Then all you wannabe race car drivers can feel good about being in a "GREEN" car that goes 0-60 under 7 seconds. Of course you will be lucky to get 20 miles to the gallon if you use the potential the car affords.
I meant Upcoming HCH2
Secondly, I never said this car is better than a Merc or even a Hyundai, all i was trying to say is that this car is not a joke.
As for Merc resale values, with their quality and reliability by the wayside, the resale values are beginning to suffer, and you can check this anywhere. Anyway, it may be better to get back to the real discussion.
In my eyes the premium package is frivolous! It is the M (motor) part of BMW I like. The premium package consists of silly electronic luxuries that will increase the likelihood of future maintenance headaches.
Have you compared that M part between 325i and HAH?
That said, the point of my bringing up the Premium Package thing was to bring home the worth of $2300 in near luxury car class.
Do you realize that you’re using relativity in your argument? What are you comparing, and what are you dropping to make your point?
The concept you have of hybrids is true in HAH as well. It is going to be more fuel efficient and have cleaner emissions, and this is in addition to delivering more performance.
I’m not sure if it makes sense to expect fuel economy of 62 HP 2-seat Honda CRX HF, power output that matches the most powerful V6 around and emissions that could rival Honda FCX. Automotive technology isn’t there yet.
If you don’t see improvement in performance coupled to improvement in fuel economy and emissions with HAH, nothing that I bring up will be meaningful.
I'm sure there is a small improvement. My idea of a practical hybrid is an Accord that gets 40-45 mpg. That to me is a more noble goal and more in line with the CAFE standards, than just building a fast hybrid that does not solve any of the problems with our environment. If a 4 cylinder Accord will get higher emissions rating and close to the 37 mpg highway rating. It seems that Honda missed the mark with this new Accord. If they would have gone for the great mileage and emissions ratings then added a V6 version for those that race around our streets it would be understandable. To me having a car that handles as good as an Accord and getting close to the Prius in mileage would have been a true WINNER! I feel they created a loser for a niche market. Maybe Toyota will make a practical hybrid Camry and continue to blow the socks off Honda sales.
Will it drive like a Bavarian Motor? I dont think so.
03accordman's following words:
"Anyway, it may be better to get back to the real discussion."
Yes, you are right! This board is not really about BMW/Mercedes. I have spent a bit too much time here and will have to focus on other things like MY LIFE.