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Comments
EX with leather, NAV, moonroof 4 cylinder $25,500
EX with leather, NAV, moonroof, V6 $27,500
___Actually, your prices are a little high for the PZEV based Accord I4 EX-L w/ NAVI and EX V6 w/ NAVI in comparison to much of the rest of the country’s dealerships.
04 EX-L w/ NAVI: $22,500
05 EX-L w/ NAVI: $23,700
05 EX V6 w/ NAVI: $25,800
___The AH is a ULEV-II vs. the V6’s ULEV-II rating although the AH’s higher FE and Autostop make it pollute less overall then the V6. Against the PZEV based Accord I4, it is a stinking hulk ;-) Well not that bad but it isn’t nearly as clean an automobile in its creation, driving, or dismantling.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Accord EX-L: $27,015
Accord EXV6: $29,215
Accord Hybrid: $32,500
HAH is priced $3K over EXV6, not necessarily “overpriced” IMO.
Between EXV6 and Hybrid:
Hybrid delivers greater refinement and power hybrid, more headroom, wider tires and improved fuel economy. What you don’t get is moon roof. Trunk space argument is debatable since the spare tire nook is now available (and not being added to trunk space) replacing some space lost in the nook behind the seats.
Pick the poison you can afford, and want.
PS. Not everything can be measured in $$$.
I was giving the HAH the benefit of the doubt. I'm with you. It is a foolish waste of money. No chance to gain any benefit over either the 4 or 6 cylinder Accord. Plus you give up the trunk space, moonroof & add more possible problems. This does not take into account the transmission that is giving Honda fits. I guess they are too busy to re-design their Auto Transmission. A smart purchase would be the Manual transmission that Honda is famous for.
The pricing in Canadian dollars for an HAH is not as high as I had expected. In fact it is a bargain when I compare the US$ price of a Prius to the CND$ price of a Prius.
The HAH in US$ is 30.5k while in Cdn$ it is 36.5K, meaning Canadians pay a 19.5 % Foreign Exchange Premium.
The Prius in US$ is 21k while in Canada it is Cdn 31k, meaning a 48% premium.
To me a 19.5% premium for a HAH sounds compelling compared to a 48% premium for a Prius.
You are probably correct. They could go down. They are a bit high from an historic standpoint. They took a hit with the last war in the Gulf. I would look for gas to level out at $1.75 per gallon. That is a price that everyone makes money at.
If you are trying to justify the HAH on gas mileage or emissions forget it. Maybe if gas got to $10 per gallon. If you just want the latest gadget from Honda go for it. It does the economy good for people to throw away their money.
Some people (like me) think big V8 luxury cars are a foolish waste of money, too. But lots of people own them--don't they?
The supply of Accord Hybrids in its inception year is largely going to be the same whether Honda uses the I4 or the V6, so they drive the price up to lower demand so it's closer to the supply line, throw in the V-6 to justify the price increase, and everyone's happier except those that wanted a more efficient Accord.
Look at the waiting lists for the Prius. I doubt that the waiting lists for the Accord Hybrid will be nearly as long as the Prius. Once the manufacturing of the Hybrid ramps up enough, we should be seeing the I4 Hybrids roll out.
And if Honda offers an I4 hybrid manual, I'll probably be all over that...
If Honda every makes a Hybrid Hatchback (something appearing in other car lines again) I'll take a hard look.
I'm guessing Honda doesn't have to do much of that. Making you wrong. But only time will tell.
If you are buying more luxury and the added weight you need more power. I'm not advocating an underpowered vehicle for the sake of better mileage. I am saying you can get all the luxury that the Accord comes with in the EX both 4 & 6 cylinder. For a lot less than the HAH. And not give up trunk space and moonroof. The 4 cylinder gets nearly as good mileage and better emissions.
Zitch, add me to the list.
Or are we going to continue to repeat arguments?
FWIW, I was at a dealership today and saw a car on the showfloor with special alloy wheels that cost $4995. But they don't make the car faster, so I guess that's not a waste of money. ;-)
It is still a small cramped little car. The new Accords are what I consider bare minimum for size. If you are happy in a Corolla or Civic that is your choice. The smaller cars in general have a worse injury insurance rating. I prefer the LS400 size car. It has a V8 and we routinely get 27 mpg on the highway. Our little Mazda 626 is lucky to get 25 mpg. I would never take a car as small as the 626 on a trip... I prefer the Suburban and am fine with the Lexus. If you want to make comparisons that are not even closely related to the HAH it is your choice. I still think you get less for more with the HAH.
PS
The $4995 wheels are an ABSOLUTE waste of money.
If your 626 (which I assume is a 4-cylinder, since I know you would say the more powerful V6 is a waste of money) can't do better than 25 mpg on the highway, it's in dire need of a tuneup or you need to adjust your driving habits (or both).
I've brought it up before, and varmint/backy touched on it, people don't seem to care about expensive options list or frills that tend to cost as much or more than the cost to add hybrid power. Yet, there is more calculation being done when it comes to hybrid. Get over it, this isn't a hybrid that is designed solely from $$$ point of view. Some things are, simply put... too subjective to be compared against $$$.
Yes it is a 1990 4 cylinder that most tanks get between 19-21 mpg. In fairness to the car it rarely goes more than 12 miles one way. It is our runabout errand car. It has 84k miles and seems a shame to get rid of it. The only time it gets a lot of use is when friends or relatives borrow it.
You could get equivalent luxury in a much smaller, lighter, equally safe car but chose not to do so.
I guess you have not had the privilege of driving both the Accord and Lexus. There is NO comparison. The Accord for a midsize car is fine. It is not a Luxury car by any stretch of the imagination. To pretend otherwise is a bad case of denial. There are many good reasons why people pay double for cars. You get what you pay for. Unless of course you are buying an Accord hybrid. Then you lose a moonroof and trunk space.
One very big error in your reasoning. The insurance companies don't agree with you on safety. The LS400 has a low risk 46 injury rating, the Accord above average risk 103, and the Elantra a very high risk 146. Safety to me is much more of an issue than 0-60. Check out the more important, 70-0 braking on the Accord it is a mediocre 193 feet...
Some people pay double for a car that offers less safety than, say, a Saab 9-3, according to crash tests. Low risk rating on both cars. Now, the Lexus may stop about 10 feet quicker 60-0 than the Saab, but the Saab handles better, which helps with safety also. Oh, and the Saab costs about $30,000 less. Gee, you could buy TWO Saabs! Or a Saab, and a HAH!
Are you guys serious! What next---a HAH versus the Maybach?
The Maybach is not as good for parallel parking and gas mileage therefore the HAH is better!
The HAH versus the Lambroughini Diabolo: The HAH is comfortable for more passengers and the gas mileage is better!
MSRP (including destination) for Navigation System equipped trims:
Accord EX-L: $27,015
Accord EXV6: $29,215
Accord Hybrid: $32,500
___You wouldn’t really pay MSRP or MSRP + for any car, would you? You will for the Accord Hybrid unfortunately :-(
___Here is this week’s ad: http://grandhonda.com/images/weekly_specials.jpg
Accord EX-L w/ Auto: $21,888 including dest.
Accord EXV6 w/ Auto: $23,998 including dest.
Accord Hybrid: It begins at $30,500 and climbs from there depending on add-ons and/or MVA’s.
___Did you miss something or is this large Chicago area Honda dealership just teasing you ;-)
Between EXV6 and Hybrid:
Hybrid delivers greater refinement and power hybrid, more headroom, wider tires and improved fuel economy. What you don’t get is moon roof. Trunk space argument is debatable since the spare tire nook is now available (and not being added to trunk space) replacing some space lost in the nook behind the seats.
___Greater refinement? The headroom is the same as that of the Accord LX/DX at 40.4” because of the loss of the EX’s powered sun roof. Is there a single Acura or Lexus that comes w/out a powered sunroof today? I haven’t looked but I bet there aren’t many? Honda specs the EX’s Cargo Volume at 14.0 cu. ft. and the AH at 11.0. Your nearest Honda dealership has the 2005 Accord brochures in stock if you need one? What the AH loses is the sunroof, a spare tire, the fold down rear seats, and 21% available trunk volume. It gains over the I4, TCS and ~ 2.3 seconds to 60. It gains over the V6 ~ .5 seconds and a nice jump in FE. We already know it costs at least $8,600 more then the 05 I4, $9,900 over and above the 04 I4, and at least $6,500 more then the 05 V6 as linked.
PS. Not everything can be measured in $$$
___It can be measured in both $’s AND cu. ft. given it’s the same car with slightly different ICE based propulsion ;-)
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___I don’t really see the need to compare the Accord Hybrid to much else as you have the various trimmed Accord’s built off the exact same platform to compare to. Then again, maybe a top of the line Accord EX-L or EX V6 with a TL, Camry XLE, or ES300 but LS’s, Saab 9-3’s (I really love those crash ratings ;-)), 626’s, and Ford 500’s (the 500 is in a similar $ range for a larger size)?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I believe the Saab is overlooked many times because they are goofy looking. My partner had a 9000 turbo that I really liked. He traded it for a Volvo XC70 and does not like it as well. The 9-3 with a few goodies will set you back $35k-$38k.
I wonder if they are as good since GM took them over. If I sell my Suburban, the only cars that have my attention are the Passat wagon TDI and the E320 CDI. I really want a wagon that handles well, gets great mileage, with room for lots of STUFF.
The sales guy told me "You are going to love the awesome NAV.". I plan to buy a second identical AH in about 6 months or less. Please ask this "Honda fanatic guy" how and why? LOL. Good luck you guys (and probably no gals in this forum...Sorry! ).
Men usually have found so excited when buying new cars, new PCs, high-tech stuffs and getting divorces finalized and ready for their new emotional adventures. "Unfortunately" my coming AH is an advanced tech. stuff that I have crazily fallen in love for a long time now. I am an "old-fashioned" guy so I would rather spend my money on Honda/ Acura than paying attorneys for divorces. LOL !
FYI, the AH's price is now equal or a bit higher then the BMW 325I. Bye bye BMW 325I !!! See you in...nowhere.
I have never hesitated to pay to buy a Honda. This time I just want to "climb up" for a bit more luxury and more high tech with the AH. The next step is selling the 95 Accord and buy another HA. Does it sound good and logical, folks?
___You are going to love the NAVI as it is the best automotive unit on the market imho. I have used it in person in an 03 MDX which had far fewer commands back then and it worked very well indeed. That being said, I opted not to purchase the NAVI equipped X. The non-OEM options available use much more up to date Navtech maps, are far more customizable, and are far less costly. As for the negatives, I do not have any voice commands, just voice guidance, my screen is far smaller, it is not built in, and it will not track off the vehicle sensors if and when it loses a minimum 3 Bird fix. In our Touring w/ RES, I use Mapopolis with an iPAQ 2215 and a Sirf IIe/LP chipset in an i-Trek mouse based receiver and it also works fantastic.
___In terms of color, the Desert Mist Metallic comes with the Ivory interior and the Graphite Pearl comes with the Gray interior. The Gray interior will appear cleaner as you pour on the miles.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
When does your new baby arrive? Give us all the details and when you test drive it, be sure to reset the fuel economy meter before you start and look at it once in awhile and tell us what you see--the people who have driven it and reported on it here seem to forget that important little detail.
My wife is nagging to me about the NAV.. She is not automotive-oriented person so the only thing she can do is driving our cars and I do all the preventive maintenance, gas, insurance, DMV, loan payments, etc.
I always keep my eyes open to other cars but for now I find really hard to resist buying an AH ASAP.
PS
Maybe you should let your son drive the 95 Accord until he gets used to driving...
___I found this small NAVI use write up over at V6performance:
This is quick version of re-organization on this topic... Thanks to Galen on making this wonderful write-up...
ps - i will try to re-organize this and many other information when i finally got time not to go out to meets..
Basic understanding of voice recognition
To effectively use the voice recognition system it helps to understand some of the basics behind voice recognition. What follows is a hopefully brief summary of the technology available, what the navi system uses, and how to use it more effectively.
There are basically three modes of recognition:
Limited keyword list - A system using this mode can recognize a finite and usually relatively small (a few hundred words would be large) set of distinct words. It recognizes word-by-word, and has trouble if two words in its dictionary are similar. For example, it would have trouble with "wear" and "where", or "six" and "sex". No voice training is necessary, as it performs a "best match" search.
Grammar - A system using this mode can recognize more words, and recognizes based on a progressive context, defined in the form of a grammar. A grammar might look like this:
Phrase: Locate [Place]
[Place]: [Food-type] Restaurant | Movie Theater | Gas Station | ATM | (etc)
[Food-type]: Italian | Mexican | Seafood | Fast Food | (etc)
So a system with this grammar could recognize any phrase beginning with the word Locate, followed by anything in the [Place] list, or followed by anything in the [Food-type] list followed by the word Restaurant. It may be able to more easily tell the difference between words like "Eighteen" and "Eighty" based on the grammar, in the same way the street number keypad entry limits what digits you can enter. If the system is looking for a number between 1 and 20, and it hears "ay-ee", it will most likely translate that as "eighteen". This is what the Accord navi system uses.
Dictation - A system using dictation can recognize virtually any word in its tens-of-thousands-of-words dictionary, but it MUST be trained to your voice. It takes anywhere from 30 minutes to 2+ hours to properly train a dictation system, as it must get samples of your voice matched against known words and phrases, so it can pull out the individual phonemes and learn how you pronounce them.
Accord's NAVI system
The Accord navi system uses a context-based grammar. Certain commands are only usable from certain screens. There are a fairly large number of global commands, though, which slows the system down and makes it a bit less accurate. The fewer things it has to search against, the faster and more accurate it will be. To see how the grammar works, try giving it a nonsense command. For example, tell it "XM Channel bindey floor". If it can parse it (it should be able to), it will most likely turn to XM channel 94, because when it hears "XM Channel" it is expecting to then hear a number - so it will try to match whatever you say against its known set of numbers [Digit][Digit?][Digit?] or [Tens][Digit?] or [Hundreds][Tens?][Digit?].
With this in mind, if you take the time to learn its grammar - the Navi owners manual describes it but doesn't express it formally or completely - you will be better able to give it commands, by knowing what it expects to hear. Absent a full knowledge of the grammar, there are still some things you can do to improve recognition:
* Give clear separation between words. This helps it to identify individual words and map them into the grammar.
* Speak clearly, but not too loudly - volume can distort the phonemes.
* Enunciate.
* When you push the voice button, you will hear a beep. Wait for the beep to start talking, otherwise it may miss half a phoneme or two.
* As the owner's manual suggests, limit background noise.
* Limit the size of its grammar by using the touch screen or buttons to go one or two menus deep before switching to voice recognition.
___With the above, there is a screen in the info menu that will give you the Instantaneous Fuel Consumption graph and trip history. Viet, you will want to learn from this screen like you have never learned from an automobile in your life. Because of its real time display, you can see what each maneuver, change in traffic conditions, change in terrain, change in climate, and especially your change in throttle angle will actually cost in terms of fuel economy. The AH does not include this information natively from what I saw in one yesterday but all Accord NAVI’s include it so learn to use it to the best of your abilities. If all cars had these little wonders in them to learn from, the US would be far better off.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Sorry, I have been so excited about my new car. I will have my "brand new baby" in a week or two. Thanks Backy for showing me the "trick" on the odometer thing.
One negative thing about giving "big-fat-V6-engine Accords" to my sons is I have ended up paying all of their speeding tickets of over $400/ each even though I keep reminding them every day not to speed. I asked my 19 year old son how many miles he drove on his Accord 2003 V6 Coupe when he got caught on the interstate highway on the way back to school. He replied to me "I dont know".
The reason we decided to let our 16 year old son drive the V6 EX 02 because my sister-in-law just got involved in a fatal accident that almost killed her. Her Camry 93 was totaled and only the driver airbag popped up. The passenger side of her car has caved in real bad. No side/ curtain airbags on that Camry. She has been in real bad shape now. We need more protection for our son. The V6 02 gets front/ side airbags.
I thought I know pretty much on generic stuff about cars but compared to you guys I know nothing. Merry, Joyful Christmas and Happy, Prosperous New Year to all of you. Thanks.
Thanks, Master Wayne. I have learned a lot since I joined this room.
And a very wonderful Christmas to you and your family. I hope your new HAH makes it in time to be under the Christmas tree....
To me, the HAH is a very fine piece of engineering from Honda. I ignore all Maxima, BMW 325I, Benz 230, Mazda 626, Avalon, etc. to go for it. I am pretty much sure I should have it before Xmas/ New Year.
Not directed at me, but will help get my point across. Accord doesn’t cost as much as LS either. However, in this case, you’re trying to justify a price tag that is 2X as much, and on a car that comes with several packages costing $5-6K and as much as $12K. And we’re having issue digesting a fact that Accord Hybrid costs $30K, about $3K more than its (closest) non-hybrid counterpart. Can’t have it both ways.
And that’s fine. Do you understand how cars are priced? It is important that you understand this before going any further.
I think I agree. I hope for that $10k more in the MDX you get better components, brakes, leather, electronics, tires, wheels, sound deadening, handling & ride.
Maybe Honda added some things to the HAH that are not in the EX. The only one it really matters to is viet. He is the only one on this board that has put his money down. I do hope he loves it, he will be a great advertisement for Honda.
Like I said earlier, I’m not in market for HAH, but to dismiss it simply based on your whim is no way logical. It’s got its own appeal. My issue is with reviewers and people who don’t go about whining for added cost of options in a car (if we want to limit to “a car”) but start math when they see “hybrid”. If you do math now, you should keep doing it regardless of the car being a hybrid or not.
As for additions, on the surface it appears that Honda added Active Noise Control, VCM, and wider tires, besides the addition of IMA. Took away moon roof however, but some dismiss Accord EXV6 for the same, since it takes away headroom (front and rear seat). So, I guess, now they have a choice!
Clearly, arguments can be made both ways, depending on your perspective, and understanding.
In a few days we should (hopefully) start hearing about new owner experiences for the HAH.
What will a few days, weeks or months of ownership of a HAH prove?
This is sort of like that silly JD Power survey that measures customer satisfaction in the first three months. And using that survey to conclude which vehicle is the best vehicle. I remember complete satisfaction with my 88 Acura Integra. It was only after three years when I had an urge to torch that damned beast of a car.
A survey for five years of ownership would be more valid(for the few who own a car for more than 5 years)
I admire Honda for trying to compete with Toyota.
But let us try not to misuse anecdotal and short term statistics to confirm a conclusion.
I don't know about that. My uncle's 2000 LS400 gets 27-28MPG at a steady 75MPH in highway driving but my 2000 Accord V6 will only give 27MPG at about the same speed with highway driving.
That said, I was looking at pictures/features of Accord in some other markets and that made me think that Honda should have incorporated those changes into HAH to differentiate it more from the mainstream Accord. It is possible that all trims will get some of these cosmetic changes next year as a part of MMC, but starting with HAH was a possibility.
There are a few nice interior touches like power folding side mirrors and wood trim cover for cup holders (even in the back seat center armrest). There is even a headlamp height adjuster on the inside.
Exterior gets a few chrome touches including on the side molding and rear bumper, as well as on the door handles.
Character lines seem to flow very well with this grill (and bumper)
For one thing, it will give potential buyers some idea of what kind of fuel economy can be achieved in the real world.
Are you suggesting that no input on the performance and reliability of a car is valid unless it covers at least five years? In that case, it's nearly worthless for anyone buying a new car because most iterations of a car don't live beyond 5-6 years. Personally I find the "anecdotal evidence and short-term statistics" from forums like this to be of value in car buying decisions--when added to other information. Anyone who uses only a J.D. Power survey to conclude which vehicle is best for them deserves whatever they get. I'm not going to wait five years before a buy a new car model, unless it's as a used car. And we can't all buy used cars, can we?