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Comments
A bicycle has a permanent sunroof and talk about cost savings!
___You bet! But the AH doesn’t have one of those :-(
so we are comparing a 4 banger to a V6?
___I was but apparently Backy didn’t think so? The V6 is only .5 seconds slower to 60 and worth ~ 34 mpg out on the highway according to CR’s. Except for the 2.5 seconds to 60, the I4 will have very similar fuel economy and a powered sunroof. Fold down rear seats and a larger trunk are nice features to have as well
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
You are putting absolutely zero value in power it seems. When you say that you're paying $8000 for the same car, well, it's only the same car to you. To many others, that ~30% decrease in 0-60 acceleration with fairly better mileage is well worth the $8000. As you say, to each his own.
And the people that this car is targeted for is *not* the average midsize family vehicle purchaser.
Just so you know, I personally do not think it's worth it for me. Then again, I'm not exactly in its target range.
Don't be suprised in the future when Honda puts out a Hybrid Accord based on the 4 cylinder that *is* priced for the average midsize vehicle driver.
___I am not putting 0 value to the additional performance at all but is that additional power over and above a std. Accord’s I4 worth $8,000? As most here know or know now, the I4 is no slouch with a 0 - 60 time of ~ 9.0 seconds. The I4’s real world fuel economy is probably going to be very close to that of the AH and its emissions when purchased as a PZEV is better. The I4’s powered sunroof, larger trunk, fold down seats, and $8,000 less cash outlay is up against the AH’s 2.5 seconds less to 60 additional performance and TCS. This is the brass tacks of the situation because the std. Accord and the AH are the same car with one being hybridized off the V6 and the other using the std. I4. In simpler terms, these 2 automobiles are very close in features and have almost the exact interior/exterior sizes unlike the Hybrid/non-Hybrid comparison threads and discussions of old here at Edmunds
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I think that is a great comparison. They will both have similar comfort, handling and quality. The 4 cylinder will be a little greener if you go for the PZEV. No chance the HAH will be a great emissions vehicle. When you weigh the losses presented by the HAH, against the only plus, 0-60 acceleration. Only hype will sell this car. No solid logic can be presented that would convince even the most diehard Honda fan it is a worthwhile or practical car. Those with their head in the clouds will buy the HAH in spite of the waste of money. No one that has posted here has given any logical reason that it is worth the price. Remember the HAH has no sun roof, no spare, more weight and a smaller trunk
I guess the editors of C/D have their heads in the clouds:
This Honda's swifter punch, marvelous handling, and absent fuel penalty are delights, even when savored in secret.
Add to the pentiful torque Honda's usual refinement, poise, and balance, and you have a brilliant new take on what hybrid technology can achieve.
Even when the tach reads "0", a cool northeasterly blows relentlessly, and all is right in my overheated world.
Yep, looks like they all hate this car, falling all over themselves to explain how worthless and impractical it is. The good news is, since not even the most diehard Honda fan will buy the car, there will be great supply and huge discounts. Just think, that $8000 difference may soon shrink down to less than half that!
Accord 2005 V6 LX, EX 240HP
Accord hybrid 255HP
Accord V6 is much different from Accord I4 in term of HP and torque. Accord hybrid employs some technology from high-priced Honda S-2000 and NSX. I have owned so many Hondas so "I guarantee it". I love Honda's intelligent engineering and I am going to buy an Accord Hybrid soon and a second one in the next few months.
Accord 2005 I4 DX, LX, EX 160HP PZEV EX-L w/ NAVI: Real world pricing $24,350
Accord 2005 V6 LX, EX 240HP ULEV-II EX-L w/ NAVI: Real world pricing $26,350
Accord Hybrid 2005 V6 255HP ULEV-II w/ NAVI: Real world pricing $32,000
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I was comparing the 4 cylinder Accord to the HAH. You threw the Civic into the pot. And to repeat the 2005 Honda Accord EX 4dr Sedan w/Leather and Navigation (2.4L 4cyl 5A)has a TMV of $26k. IF the HAH sells for $32k with the NAV system, it will still not have the sunroof and will have a smaller trunk. The 4 cylinder is more than enough power for safe driving. The Honda is not known for great brakes. So putting a V6 with that much power is asking for problems. It is not a needed vehicle and is a sham from a "green" viewpoint. Some people on this forum would buy an orange crate with wheels if it had Honda on the side. That is not evidence that it is a good car.
If the editors of C/D buy a HAH I would tell them to their faces they have their head in the clouds. The only reason for them to buy one is for testing purposes....
* Sedan that seats five comfortably
* Leather interior
* Automatic transmission
* Factory navigation system available
* Quick, i.e. goes 0-60 in under 7 seconds
* Fuel-efficient, i.e. averages over 30 mpg per EPA
* Safe (good crash-test scores, standard SABs/SACs/ABS/traction)
* Excellent predicted reliability
* Excellent predicted resale value
* MSRP under $35,000
What are this buyer's choices?
___What are the buyer’s choices?
Yours:
Requirements of a car buyer:
* Sedan that seats five comfortably
* Leather interior
* Automatic transmission
* Factory navigation system available
* Quick, i.e. goes 0-60 in under 7 seconds
* Fuel-efficient, i.e. averages over 30 mpg per EPA
* Safe (good crash-test scores, standard SABs/SACs/ABS/traction)
* Excellent predicted reliability
* Maybe decent predicted resale value
* MSRP under $35,000
Most everyone else’s:
Requirements of the smarter car buyer:
* Sedan that seats five comfortably
* Leather interior
* Automatic transmission
* Factory navigation system available.
* Powered Sunroof is std.
* Quick, i.e. goes 0-60 in under 9 seconds
* Fuel-efficient, i.e. averages over 29 mpg per EPA
* Safe (good crash-test scores, standard SABs/SACs/ABS)
* Excellent predicted reliability
* Proven Excellent predicted resale value
* Real world under $25,000
___Most of America chooses the latter as in 70% of Accord’s sold are I4’s to begin with IIRC. Even more to the point, most don’t purchase an Accord up in the $25K range either but a more realistic $20K figure given how many LX’s are sold OTD at < $20K including TTL!
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
.
The point behind adding a battery/motor is not to conserve fuel. The point is to provide acceptable acceleration to an otherwise slow/small-engined car.
Now the Accord Hybrid is not a small engine, but it *acts* like a small engine with its 3-cylinder operation. Without the extra 15hp boost, the Accord Hybrid would be a 10 second snail, and few would buy it.
So going back to sentence one: "The point behind adding a battery/motor...is to provide acceptable acceleration in a small-engined car."
.
As for idle-stop, you don't need a hybrid for that. Some cars do that with just the standard starter system.
There's an entire market for it.
Seriously Wayne, you've stated the same thing over and over again for nearly all of the 69 pages. You're not dissuading anyone that's interested in the vehicle from not getting it. It's an exciting new technology. And like all exciting new technologies, they come at a premium, at least initially. Odd thing though, a good chunk of people pay that premium. It inspires them. It obviously doesn't inspire you, but we knew that on page 2.
Do you have any factual, 3rd-party justification that shows the list of requirements you provided apply to most car buyers? Or are they your personal preferences (which is why you said "smarter car buyer")?
There's an entire market for it.
Seriously Wayne, you've stated the same thing over and over again for nearly all of the 69 pages. You're not dissuading anyone that's interested in the vehicle from not getting it. It's an exciting new technology. And like all exciting new technologies, they come at a premium, at least initially. Odd thing though, a good chunk of people pay that premium. It inspires them. It obviously doesn't inspire you, but we knew that on page 2.
___These are not my requirements but a real world fix of what you posted.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Zitch, wisdom could not have been expressed any better than by the words above.
The premium price of the HAH is nothing short of outrageous. But dont expect anything better from Toyota. I read in a Newsweek website that the Lexus RX400H will start at 52k(OUCH!!!!)
These steep prices should continue to exist for quite a while. Yeah I know it is senseless to compare a Prius with a HAH or a RX400h. But in itself and in the market segment it serves the Prius is compelling value for the technology you are getting. I think I will put my name on the waiting list. Saw a Toyota dealer in Toronto and was told I could drive a new Prius in 4 months. I read about the nutty waiting lists that exists in the USA.
I don't think there is a need to dissuade anyone here except viet. He is the only one that says he will buy the HAH. The rest are tire kickers that will use common sense when they buy a car and get the most for the money. Which is not the HAH. The only thing it has is high tech, high price and a relatively fast 0-60. Not a $35k car in most peoples minds.
But you know what? It doesn't matter what I think. The $30,000 Acura sold to my money-wasting friend, and continues to sell well to other money-wasting people, giving Honda tons of money.
Likewise it doesn't matter what Xcel thinks. People with money to waste WILL buy this $30,000 luxury Accord.
Troy
Seriously Wayne, you've stated the same thing over and over again for nearly all of the 69 pages.
___Not even close. With 3 posts per month average in this thread (until the last 48 hours of course), most had to do with everything else but the price of the AH vs. the std. Accord’s. Do you want to look them up?
Odd thing though, a good chunk of people pay that premium. It inspires them. It obviously doesn't inspire you, but we knew that on page 2.
___Who are you speaking of as I didn’t enter until much later. I do know my posts were not discussing price premiums since no one knew the expected pricing of the AH until sometime in or around September.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I agree that it is a waste of money. And I agree people will buy them. I don't think as many will buy as all the media hype would have us believe. paying $5k- $8k more to say you have a hybrid and be able to go 0-60 under 7 seconds is just what PT Barnum made his millions on.
I remember when my friend bought a brand-new Acura with leather seats for $30,000. I looked at it and thought, "My friend's nuts. I could have bought a similar car, just as luxurious, for $22,000."
___But you couldn’t purchase the same Acura with a smaller ICE for $22,000, could you? We aren’t speaking of Toyota vs. Lexus or Honda vs. Acura but Honda vs. Honda and it’s the same model with the almost the exact same amenities.
Likewise it doesn't matter what Xcel thinks. People with money to waste WILL buy this $30,000 luxury Accord.
___It doesn’t matter what ElectricTroy thinks either as there will be a given number of AH’s that sell. The question is Is it a smart choice given the exact car can be purchased for so much less money without the Hybrid drivetrain?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
As for my previous purchases--you are 100% wrong about the reasons I chose not to buy the Prius I ordered, so I recommend you stop assuming things and stick to our discussion of the HAH.
I know why, COMMON SENSE influenced your purchasing decisions!
It is for them. They may feel it is a smart choice, maybe it's promoting a future tech, maybe it's intriguing, mabye they are just different than you...
___Not even close. With 3 posts per month average in this thread (until the last 48 hours of course), most had to do with everything else but the price of the AH vs. the std. Accord’s. Do you want to look them up?
cute. Avoid the point presented, regardless of duration. You've really added nothing to the past three pages save repeating ad nauseum that you think it's a poor financial decision to purchase this car. Regardless of what people tell you about adoption of new techs, available disposable income, or heck, just a keen interest about the vehicle, it doesn't matter. It's a bad financial decision. You're wasting your money. You know, there's a pretty good argument that buying ANY car is wasting money. Or a "smart decision".
The rest are tire kickers that will use common sense when they buy a car and get the most for the money. Which is not the HAH. The only thing it has is high tech, high price and a relatively fast 0-60. Not a $35k car in most peoples minds.
it doesn't take "most people" to adopt any future tech. Never has, never will. You're not the visceral police. Some may actually feel good about their choice. It will sell well. it will in spite of the cost. It won't be perceived as a waste by the purchasers.
Don't ever buy a car, any car, if you want a "smart purchase".
Is it not obvious? Are you reading most the messages?
The negativity is not about the technology. I believe most of us love technology. There are three things that motivates negativity about the HAH and that is price, price and price.
Honda has a a history based on providing vehicles with great value! Even most Acuras provide great value compared to premium priced cars. The HAH is an Accord not an Acura. Previously there were members who tried to compare an HAH with a Audi or BMW. I am sorry that just doesnt cut it.
If Honda wanted to introduce such a hefty priced car they should have introduced it as an Acura. Hopefully Toyota will have some sense and introduce a reasonably priced 4 cyl hybrid Camry. With such a Toyota, the HAH would become an embarassment.
Fortunately for Honda there are an abundance of fools who will buy the HAH. Ignorance is Bliss!
Remember: the Accord is one of the best selling cars in the USA. Giving it a more powerful engine and a "green" stamp will NOT lure fools - it will lure people who want and Accord and want to try the technology. And maybe a few who just want the extra 15 horsepower.
Wayne, you go first.
And for what price? Sort of like the logic of the VW Passat W8. At first it attracted a few devoted VW fans, then the fan club gradually died out. Pricing will kill off any long-term interest for such a vehicle or any vehicle.
For the right price, there would be no issue!
Add traction control, side airbags and floor mats to Altima 3.5SL and you’re at $29K ($31K with navigation system).
What difference does that make? You mean to tell me that a $5 piece of metal that says "Acura" suddenly makes a $30,000 Accord okay?????
Strange logic there.
I did not say rebadge an existing hybird Honda Accord into a Hybrid Acura Accord!
I am very glad that the 4-cylinder Accord and the HAH are the same car, as you stated. I will go down to my Honda dealer this weekend and drive the 4-banger Accord, because I can't wait to feel the acceleration (0-60 in under 7 seconds),
___The AH and Accord are the same car with different ICE’s and one is hybridized. 0 - 60 is 9.0 seconds is the I4 and 0 - 60 in 6.5 seconds is the AH by most accounts.
the luxury (navi system), the silence at stops, and the great fuel economy that the 4-cylinder Accord offers for so little money.
___Yes indeed. The I4 equipped with the luxury items including NAVI and the powered sunroof does receive spectacular fuel economy. I wish I would have brought the Digital camera the day I took one out for a test drive to take a pic of the Fuel Consumption screen the NAVI equipped I4 comes with for you to see ;-) At stops, you might hear the ICE if you listen very carefully for it but probably not. Did someone not inform you that the 04 EX-L’s can be purchased w/ NAVI and in PZEV format for just $22,500. The 05 EX-L’s w/ NAVI are going to be a tad more then $24,000 right now.
As for my previous purchases--you are 100% wrong about the reasons I chose not to buy the Prius I ordered, so I recommend you stop assuming things and stick to our discussion of the HAH.
___You are the one that ordered the Hybrid and passed on it when it arrived because the Hyundai was the better purchase, not me.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Robersmx you asked me for what I consider a fair price for the existing HAH would be about 2k above the Accord EX V6.
At price levels 29k-31k I would buy a base BMW 3 Series E90(June 2005) and enjoy real performance/handling and save 10% fuel consumption compared to my 99 BMW323i. The options and luxuries of a loaded Accord or Altima do not excite me. My BMW 323 has cloth seats and is quite spartan(that is the way I like it)
I am considering buying either a Prius or a BMW3 series. Depending on what my priorities will be next year: Save Gas or Drive Fast. IMO mixing both performance/gas efficiency is a compromise. I do not want to buy a compromise!
In fact I would have been interested in a reasonably priced Accord 4 cyl. hybrid with an emphasis on gas efficiency.
cute. Avoid the point presented, regardless of duration. You've really added nothing to the past three pages save repeating ad nauseum that you think it's a poor financial decision to purchase this car. Regardless of what people tell you about adoption of new techs, available disposable income, or heck, just a keen interest about the vehicle, it doesn't matter. It's a bad financial decision. You're wasting your money. You know, there's a pretty good argument that buying ANY car is wasting money. Or a "smart decision".
___No, you said something about starting on page 2 wrong guy and definitely wrong subject.
___As for ad-nauseaum, this is not new tech and if someone wants to spend $8,000 more for that 2.5 seconds and possibly 15% increase in fuel economy, more power to them. If they read this thread, they might instead think about paying for Johnny’s first year of college tuition, room, and board instead. Where else has someone brought up the fact that most automobile V6 or V8 upgrades cost around $2,000, not $8,000? Care to link it for me?
___As Dewey mentioned, it’s the price that is the deal breaker. I own a Honda Hybrid and it has some great real world capabilities but the AH does not have $8,000 worth of great capabilities, features, or amenities.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Any of them. For any car. Especially if they're new.
I'm sorry, but you've been ranting about the "fiscal negatives' of purchasing a HAH for the last few pages, easily.
you conveniently decided that there's no emotion associated with a car purchase and that "overpaying" is a poor financial decision.
Point to me where purchasing even a Honda new, is a good financial decision.
It's not. Nor will it ever be. but people Want a new car. They Want a new tech.
As far as Johnny's first year of college goes, I would contend that anyone could cover that cost if they understood the first thing about what is an asset and what is a liability. Different topic for a different day. Needless to say, people pay a ton for what anyone could perceive as a marginal upgrade. Some of these people are actually pretty financially smart. Go figure
So in other words, they are NOT the same car. Thanks for clarifying that.
As for another's comment about $5 of metal turning a Honda into an Acura--well, it works in Canada at least, where they sell Civics with an Acura nameplate.
So what does everyone think: is $2-3000 too much of a penalty to pay for the what you get with the HAH vs. the Accord EX V6?
I don't think the HAH will qualify for the hybrid tax deduction. I believe the rules state that the vehicle has to get 45 mpg. I only see the two Honda Insight & Civic and the Prius. No Ford Escape, no GM hybrid PU trucks.
I paid $1524 more for my HCH over a similary equipped EX on the lot at the same time. I know I would pay at least THAT much if the HAH was the car I wanted.
Personally, if you combine the "green effect" with the extra horsepower which can be used as a "safety feature" (those who have owned hot rod cars know what I mean) AND you then consider that it is at LEAST as high a trim as the EX *AND* the LIKELY PROSPECT that at resale time you will see some of your original premium reflected in the resale value versus the EX, then you are looking at a good combination of positive factors for certain buyers....
The Civic you are talking about is called an EL Acura. Sold only in Canada( quite a few fools here in Canada). These vehicles are rip-offs. Unlike the Acura TL.
I paid $1524 more for my HCH over a similary equipped EX on the lot at the same time. I know I would pay at least THAT much if the HAH was the car I wanted.
Personally, if you combine the "green effect" with the extra horsepower which can be used as a "safety feature" (those who have owned hot rod cars know what I mean) AND you then consider that it is at LEAST as high a trim as the EX *AND* the LIKELY PROSPECT that at resale time you will see some of your original premium reflected in the resale value versus the EX, then you are looking at a good combination of positive factors for certain buyers....
Would we be having this issue with “premium” Accord if Honda offered a 255 HP engine without hybrid technology, 19/26 mpg and sport tuned suspension (with or without moon roof)?
___7 years ago, you made a conscious decision to purchase the I4 instead of the V6 in your EX-L trimmed Accord and probably saved $2,000 at the time. Now you are telling me you are willing to spend an extra $8,000 more for that V6 power and possibly a small increase in fuel economy without a powered sunroof?
___I cannot wait to hear of your actual decision no matter which way it goes. I do know that you will be sitting in that Honda dealerships closer’s office about to sign the papers and passing along that Bank Draft for $32,000 + TTL on the AH still wondering if the Accord I4 wasn’t the smarter choice for $8,000 less cash. You are one of the most reasonable posters on the Edmunds Hybrid boards from my viewpoint and I just don’t see you handing over that bank draft without some serious consideration of all variables beforehand. I actually don’t see you making the AH purchase this year or early next until either the AH drops a few grand from MSRP or until such time as your present Accord dies of old age and you purchase whatever Accord fits your needs at that time. I just don’t think it will be the AH in any of these cases
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Lets take Robertsmx’s Accord as a quasi example as to what a std. V6 Accord is possibly worth over and above the I4 7 years down the line. I used KBB.com so these results are reproducible for anyone that cares to run their own numbers.
1998 Accord EX Sedan - 2.3 L VTEC - 110,000 miles - Good Condition (nothing is good after 110,000 miles) - Leather - Moon roof - ABS: Private Party value: $6,775 / TIV: $5,190
1998 Accord EX Sedan - V6 3.0 L VTEC - 110,000 miles - Good Condition (nothing is good after 110,000 miles) - Leather - Moon roof - ABS: Private Party value: $7,335 / TIV: $5,690
___That $2,000 premium on initial purchase has evaporated to just $500.00 on a std. V6 vs. I4 at day of sale. Do you really think a 2004 Accord Hybrid with a $3,000 + pack replacement looming (sometime down the road) is going to demand much over the V6 or I4 if any 7 years from now? You will not receive a dime of that $8,000 premium back is more then likely the case.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
But right now, all we have the the HISTORICAL FACT that ___cars higher up in the same model line chain (DX, LX, EX, Hybrid) ALWAYS sell for more at resale/trade time___ in the modern History of US auto resale values.
So, no, the premium will not be fully repaid EVER - but it's not going to be HURT down the line by battery replacement woes, I'd stake my job and reputation on that - if it were the case, the circa 1997 Japanese Priuses would be all over the news for a rash of battery replacements.