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"It was a big debate inside the company," says Honda exec Robert Bienenfeld. In the end, the racy ad was shelved in favor of a spot showing the Accord hybrid on a tropical island. As the camera floats over its leather seats and satellite radio, actor Richard Dreyfuss talks of its "surprisingly fuel-efficient 255-horsepower" V-6.
Your vehicle is an 1983 model, and is not indicative of newer models. One of the dumbest deals ever made was when MB acquired Chrysler. The quality of the MBs have been slipping in the past 5 years.
You are definitely correct. The Mercedes Benz brand is being sabotoged by the inept management of Juergen Schremp. The past is the past. And I dont think MB will ever regain their past stature. Quality and reliability will poison the reputation of MB. MB management reminds me of the inept management of Jaguar in the 1970s/80s. As a result of such ineptness, the Jaguar brand is still suffering.
MB announced that they will be introducing hybrids in 5 years. MB is alreayd 7 years late as of today( compared to Toyota). This is inexcusable from a company that sells Smart and Mercedes A Class vehicles(two wonderful candidates for hybrid technology). I dont think their bet on diesel vs. hybrid will pay off. If MB was truly innovative they would consider a low emission diesel hybrid engine.
Despite the above, IMO the MB320 turbo does appear to be one of the few interesting vehicles among the MB line.
I meant diesel!
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6478820/site/newsweek/
Perhaps, and at least for now, hybrids could change the way at least some of us drive our cars.
___What you need is an automobile with a game gauge, not a hybrid. Out on the highway, the MDX is worth 30 + so any compact or even the non-hybridized Accord I4 would deliver much better then 37 mpg although more along the lines of 63 mph, not 75. I prefer not to break the law but maybe 75 is the speed limit where you live?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___I don’t know where the AH’s VCM will drop out in terms of engine load (65, 70, 75, or even 80 mph with no particular wind aid or hindrance as well as relatively flat roads) but once it drops out, you are looking at an EPA rated 30 mpg automobile (std. Accord V6 is EPA rated at 21/30) Your 98 Accord EX-L I4 will do the same or better given its 23/30 rating if its got the VTEC. I assume it does?
___Is a $30 to $32,000 automobile worth it in that case? Not that your EX-L’s Sunroof is worth that much but the AH without one is missing something important vs. the std. Accord EX I4’s and V6’s imho.
___Anyway, I cannot wait to get my turn behind the wheel of an AH as I have a feeling that the I4 driven by a hypermiler is worth more then the AH’s V6 w/ VCM out on the highway while driven in the exact same manner. We shall hopefully see soon enough?
PS: Did you know the NAVI equipped EX-L’s include a game gauge as well? That brand new 04 Accord EX-L w/ NAVI at $22,500 or 05 at $23,500 - $23,800 looks better all the time imho ;-)
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___2000 Honda Insight 5-speed #203 - 92.5 lmpg
As for 0-60 times, that is the real advantage here. While the 0-60 measure is probably not the most accurate, the application of power is the whole point. You get the power of a large V6 (or small V8) with the same fuel economy and emissions as the best 4 cylinder on the market. Other hybrids offer better fuel economy, but cannot compete with the HAH's performance.
But that’s not it. HAH is designed to run in three cylinder more even during light to moderate acceleration with electric assist (unlike non-hybrid applications of VCM where all six cylinders will have to play their role).
My 1998 Accord EX-L (auto) is rated at 23/30 mpg compared to 24/34 mpg for the 2003+ Accord (1998-2002 V6 was rated 20/28 compared to 21/30 mpg now). I manage about 1 mpg better than EPA rating in city and on highway (sometimes 2, no more). I may be able to squeak in another mpg or two by being conservative on the throttle and speed, but instead of completing a 500 mile journey in a little over seven hours, I would take a little over eight hours.
Besides, I’m less focused on the road when going slower than the rest of the traffic, and doing 60-65 mph when speed limit is 70 mph while much of the traffic has set cruise control at 70-75 mph can be a dangerous proposition.
At $30K, HAH may not have moon roof that I would love to have, but it has everything else. Actually, at $30K, there are near luxury sedans that do not have moon roof. I might get moon roof in Accord EXV6 or Camry XLE/V6 or Altima SEV6 for the similar price, but I won’t get the power of hybrid!
Not sure about the game gauge, but that wasn’t the point in my earlier post. I’ve been playing the number games without it. The difference I suggested was that the number game might lean towards discoveries as to what hybrid power can accomplish. I already know what I can do without it.
___Not at all. Just because the VCM is driving off of only 3 cylinders, it is still pushing 6. You do not get the full benefit of VCM as those 3 unused cylinders are still propelling those unused pistons, rods, cranks, and valve train up and down/round and round (sounds like the lyrics to a hip 60’s song, doesn’t it ;-)) through their respective compression and decompression/cyclic cycles.
___The I4 on the other hand has already proven itself to be quite a capable highway cruiser when driven and setup properly. All 4 cylinders are being fed but all 4 cylinders are providing propulsion and none are a drag on the overall efficiency.
___As for the AH’s aerodynamics, I haven’t seen that it has a lowered Cd yet? Do you have a link?
___Finally, I don’t expect the I4 to get better fuel economy then the AH for most but most drive with their head somewhere else anyway. What I am wondering is if the AH will receive the same fuel economy as the I4 for me and those driving in the CR’s 150 mile highway test. That Accord I4 was worth 38 mpg in that particular drive/test and it was worth > 50 mpg’s for me. Now do you know why I brought these questions up?
http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerreports/article/fuel_efficient_car- s_category.html
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
-- Car and Driver, December 2004
___I read Jeff’s post a few months ago and it was on a track and wasn’t it with the Honda engineers? What we will know soon enough is the AH’s capabilities out in the real world on real roads with real people behind the wheel. In this case, the Prius I, Prius II, HCH, and Insight have all failed to come anywhere near their respective EPA estimates for most and if the same holds true for the AH, then you might want to temper your enthusiasm given what you are actually receiving in your current Accord. Don’t believe for a second that IMA pack power is free energy. It isn’t by any stretch of the imagination
___As for what the regular Accord V6 received in an all-highway loop, follow the link I provided to Backy. 34 mpg out on the highway in CR’s 150 mpg run is not bad at all and I would suspect the AH to receive ~ 38 - 40 mpg (similar to the I4) in the same test.
limit is 70 mph while much of the traffic has set cruise control at 70 - 75 mph can be a dangerous proposition.
___I don’t know what the right hand lanes are traveling in your locale but here in Illinois, 55 is the limit around Chicago proper and 65 is the limit on the outskirts of the state as well as in southern Wisconsin (Milwaukee and Madison excluded of course). Truck limits are 55 throughout and they are usually doing 55 - 65 in the slower right and center lanes. If they are doing 75 mph, you must have a lot of deadly traffic accidents as it takes an 18-wheeler ~ 1/3 of a mile to panic stop from 75 mph.
___Let me get this straight. Not one of those Big Rigs you are driving with is following the speed limits after an 8 hour drive on the Interstate? Come on now, you just haven’t paid attention is all. Just because you haven’t noticed a single 18-wheeler traveling at 70 mph or less on your 7 – 8 hour run down the blacktop, doesn’t mean you haven’t passed quite a few of them which does place you into what I would call the dangerous proposition. Slow down, save lives, save gas, and lower your emissions.
At $30K, HAH may not have moon roof that I would love to have, but it has everything else. Actually, at $30K, there are near luxury sedans that do not have moon roof. I might get moon roof in Accord EXV6 or Camry XLE/V6 or Altima SEV6 for the similar price, but I won’t get the power of hybrid!
___The item I am thinking about is that apparently your I4 has served you quite well over the last 6 to 7 years or you would have traded it in for a V6 Accord/Camry/Altima a long time ago Do you actually floor your I4 on a daily basis? Have you ever floored your I4? How about out on the highway? Have you ever floored your I4 there? If so, 7 years worth of that WOT haven’t seemed to dissuade you from driving the I4 or at least trading up. The I4 in the 03/04/04 Accord is even more powerful then the I4 in your 98 Accord so you aren’t trading down even with the new I4 let alone the ability to purchase it with PZEV emissions. That being said, I know where you can pick up a brand new 04 PZEV based Accord I4 EX-L w/ NAVI for $22,500 today. I also know I could pick up a new 05 I4 Accord EX-L w/ NAVI for ~ $23,800 - $24,000 in a matter of a week or two. I already know what the I4 Accord EX-L w/ NAVI is worth both in the city and out on the highway in my hands. In your case out on the highway, I would expect even you could receive at least 35 mpg from one. All the while with that powered sunroof only a button push away. Is $8,000 worth that extra 2.5 seconds to 60 mph and possibly similar highway mileage minus the sunroof (both measurements and cost while using the I4 for comparison)?
___As for games and such. V6 power adds a gaming experience of some kind? If you aren’t driving it for efficiency, you might be one of the tens of thousands of hybrid drivers not hitting EPA estimates in them. I am not saying the V6 based AH doesn’t have power as it does in spades but like the Prius II debates, having more then enough power and receiving garbage fuel economy in one is just as bad as having to little and receiving just Ok to garbage fuel economy in one.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___A drop to .29 (same as the std. Accord Coupe) does not bring about a 5% increase in fuel economy out on the highway. Thanks for the update as at least I know what the AH’s Cd is now. Care to look at EPA estimates of the Accord Coupe vs. the Sedan? EPA doesn’t even take Cd into account given they are on the treadmill but in the real world, .29 vs. .30 is worth maybe .5 mpg at best. Car and Driver should really no better then to make statement like that. Then again, maybe the std. I4 based Accord with the slight aero trick(s) would be good for a 36 mpg rating on the EPA cycle? Not a chance.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Just because the VCM is driving off of only 3 cylinders, it is still pushing 6.
Not exactly! Pistons are moving and valves are sealed (in three cylinders). There is no combustion taking place in the three cylinders. Under these circumstances, we’re not expecting or Honda isn’t claming a doubling of fuel economy, just a 10-12% increase since, besides other losses, throttle opening would also play a role. In the end, there is an increase however, and given that V6 is more potent than the I-4, it is geared taller, allowing for lower cruising rpm.
What we will know soon enough is the AH’s capabilities out in the real world on real roads with real people behind the wheel. In this case, the Prius I, Prius II, HCH, and Insight have all failed to come anywhere near their respective EPA estimates for most and if the same holds true for the AH, then you might want to temper your enthusiasm given what you are actually receiving in your current Accord.
Let us be fair, and see the results obtained on regular Accords as well. The same magazine that claimed HAH returned 26 mpg during their run with it manages to make all but a hidden remark about getting 18 mpg off Accord V6. Without comparing oranges to oranges, in this case conditions, mileage comparisons make little sense. In such cases, we could just as well throw in the latest review of HAH (link posted a few posts above) where mixed driving in DC area seems to have yielded 32 mpg (with claimed 29 mpg with some leadfooted driving). Not bad for a midsize sedan with 255 HP. That’s Civic territory (ignoring size, refinement and performance comparisons). The same driver claims to have obtained 44 mpg on Prius.
Don’t believe for a second that IMA pack power is free energy. It isn’t by any stretch of the imagination
Well, part of it certainly is. “Free” may not be an appropriate term, but “recycle” is.
I don’t know what the right hand lanes are traveling in your locale but here in Illinois, 55 is the limit around Chicago proper and 65 is the limit on the outskirts of the state as well as in southern Wisconsin (Milwaukee and Madison excluded of course). Truck limits are 55 throughout and they are usually doing 55 - 65 in the slower right and center lanes.
My latest trip involved driving in Texas, Arkansas and Tennessee. Speed limits are 70 mph, but except for occasional slow drivers (very rare), cruise control seems to find its way at about 75 mph, in cars, SUVs and 18-wheelers. In fact, there were times I could just set the cruise control at 80 mph and follow a caravan of 8-10 vehicles (but cruise control isn’t my thing).
And going 65 mph with a semi getting closer on the rear view mirror doing 75 mph isn’t a sight to behold either.
The item I am thinking about is that apparently your I4 has served you quite well over the last 6 to 7 years or you would have traded it in for a V6 Accord/Camry/Altima a long time ago Do you actually floor your I4 on a daily basis?
Yep. I do floor my I-4 quite occasionally. And given the way my car responds with just 150 HP, I suspect that I won’t need to do it with a car having as much power as HAH.
Getting back to moon roof, I love it. And you’re right, I take full advantage of it and it is a shame that I can’t get it with HAH. However, reviews of HAH have made me rethink about the other things that the car can do. The rest will depend on personal experience. Perhaps it will be the second car in my family, replacing the 2000 Civic. Currrently, Accord EX-L is our long distance tourer, and that may change for couple of reasons. One, the miles have stacked up to almost 107K miles, and two, I smell savings (besides added comfort) in HAH compared to Civic EX as well as my current Accord. It would need to be replaced someday, anyway.
As for PZEV Accord, first of all, it isn’t available everywhere, and even if it were sold in Texas, the gasoline we get here would make PZEV rating look good only on paper.
electrictroy "Advanced Course in Hybrid Engineering" Nov 12, 2004 2:07pm
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Lemme get this straight. You want to know how well the Accord hybrid is going to do on fuel economy based on your driving style (a "hypermiler"). Is that right?
I think you're just going to have to buy one to find out.
That said, if mpg is your absolute highest priority, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. The HAH is about saving fuel without giving up any performance. Cars that give up performance (Prius or Civic hybrid) sound like a better choice for you.
The deck-lid spoiler in HAH is said to reduce the co-efficient of drag down from 0.30 to 0.29 (this information is available at hondanews.com).
___If so, then all Accords should have this $25.00 piece of plastic on them. If I ever do purchase a std. Accord, I will have to do exactly that. Car and Driver added that the wheels themselves subtracted a small amount of drag as well?
Not exactly! Pistons are moving and valves are sealed (in three cylinders). There is no combustion taking place in the three cylinders. Under these circumstances, we’re not expecting or Honda isn’t claming a doubling of fuel economy, just a 10-12% increase
___It is the 10 - 12% or maybe it is 15% increase that I would be concerned with as well. I don’t care if it was the new RL’s 300 + HP 3.5 L V6 and a VCM setup, that small an increase in fuel economy is a lot of $’s extra if fuel economy is what you were considering over and above the std. Accord’s. I did read over at C&D that all valves are shut down? I don’t know if this means shut or just stopped however?
In the end, there is an increase however, and given that V6 is more potent than the I-4, it is geared taller, allowing for lower cruising rpm.
___From http://www.new-cars.com/2004/honda/honda-accord-coupe-specs.html
Final drive ratio Accord I4 w/ Auto: 4.438:1
Final drive ratio Accord I4 w/ Manual: 4.389:1
Final drive ratio Accord V6 w/ Auto: 4.429
Final drive ratio Accord V6 w/ 6 Speed Manual: 3.286:1
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_- id=8779&page_number=4
Final drive ratio Accord Hybrid: 4.38:1
___With that, I believe the std. Accord I4’s final gear ratio is taller?
Let us be fair, and see the results obtained on regular Accords as well.
___I cannot wait to see the 150 mile CR’s highway test myself!
Well, part of it certainly is. “Free” may not be an appropriate term, but “recycle” is.
___You will see what part of IMA charging is regen and what part is simply a drag on the ICE for yourself when you get to spend some time behind the wheel of an IMA equipped Honda Hybrid. The drag on the ICE is the largest part of your SoC increase for a highway driver in particular.
My latest trip involved driving in Texas, Arkansas and Tennessee. Speed limits are 70 mph, but except for occasional slow drivers (very rare)
___My latest trip was across Arizona, Nevada, and half of California. Yes, there were those going 80 + in the left lanes. There was also those going < 65 in the right ones. How else do you think I achieved an ~ 34 mpg riding in a rented Buick LeSabre with the A/C on full blast most all of the time climbing into and out of Yosemite, downtown San Fran, and climbing across those damn mountains in and around California again and again and again? 63 - 67 mph across the deserts makes for a great test of your skills in a non-setup automobile if I do say so myself.
And going 65 mph with a semi getting closer on the rear view mirror doing 75 mph isn’t a sight to behold either.
___Given he is more then likely a professional, he will have moved into the far left lanes long before he ever got close to you. A small suggestion. Pull in front of the semi doing 65 or less with an ~ 200 - 300 foot spacing. You won’t see any 75 + mph automobiles or semi’s coming into your rear view mirrors then.
Yep. I do floor my I-4 quite occasionally. And given the way my car responds with just 150 HP, I suspect that I won’t need to do it with a car having as much power as HAH.
___Sadly then, you should have traded for the V6 about let us say 7 years ago then? If you are flooring your current Accord and achieving 31 mpg out on the highway, heaven help you with what you will achieve from the V6 doing the same. I have never completely floored my Insight and I travel through the third worst traffic nightmare in the nation on a daily basis let alone possibly the world. This is after all a 75 HP automobile pushing > 2,000 #’s. I guess all of those Corolla’s, Civic’s, std. Accord’s, Camry’s, SUV’s, Hyundais, and Kia’s on the road are to slow to travel on the same road(s) you are traveling on? Maybe they take alternate routes to your same destinations? I don’t know how most can use 50 HP in their current automobiles when crawling around in that kind of traffic but at least when it clears somewhat, you can race up to the guy in front of you or the next red light using all 255 HP and Regen for all its worth afterwards!
As for PZEV Accord, first of all, it isn’t available everywhere, and even if it were sold in Texas, the gasoline we get here would make PZEV rating look good only on paper.
___The PZEV’s on high sulfur fuel receive 9/10 ratings from the EPA’s emissions site. A ULEV-II rated AH (same as our MDX) will receive an 8 on the same not including the evaporative emissions as they aren’t calculated in the score.
___As for availability, if you cannot drive, fly, or take a bus to pick up a PZEV in California (I belive you could pick one up in Arizona as well?) for an extra $135.00 on top of you pre-negotiated price and the much longer emissions warranty that comes with it, I don’t know what can be added. If I pick up a new Accord, I am heading to New York, Vermont, Maine, or Massachusetts myself to pick one up. The much longer emissions HW warranty alone is worth far more then the extra $135.00 let alone knowing that you are actually cleaning the air by driving in some of our more polluted cities. I believe Dallas/Ft. Worth and Houston qualify in this regard.
___Should we talk about what it will cost to repair an active mount(s) at the 40,000, 80,000, or 120,000 mile point?
___That $8,000 + is a lot of money for that 2.5 seconds, loss of the sunroof, poorer emissions but most aren’t thinking with their heads when they purchase Hybrid’s or V6’s actually :-(
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
OTOH, an HAH could be a good financial decision if their alternative is to buy a luxury car costing thousands more. Anyway, since when is the purchase of a loaded $30,000+ sedan a totally emotionless decision? Who really needs a leather interior, or alloy wheels, or a killer stereo, or a DVD entertainment system, or a factory nav system, or automatic climate control, or any of the other features that push car prices up? People buy cars like that because it adds pleasure to their lives--is that a bad thing?
The brakes and the A/C also have to have electric instead of hydraulic power when the V6 is off.
An owner in this forum already pointed out the much lower stopping power of the electric-powered brakes. Those are few more components to fail later.
When the starter has to turn on the V6 engine hundreds times a day as you stop and go in city traffic, compared to having to start the non-hybrid cars 4,5 times a day, that would reduce the life of the starter system proportionally.
You would be buying starter, ignitor and sensors ...hundreds time sooner than normal.
In complex cars, Electronics problems are common, very hard to troubleshoot and very expensive to replace. Honda will get very rich selling expensive replacement electronic modules later.
Lemme get this straight. You want to know how well the Accord hybrid is going to do on fuel economy based on your driving style (a "hypermiler"). Is that right?
___Not at all. I am not speaking of just a hypermiler as then I would be comparing 40 - 44 mpg’s in the City/48 - 52 mpg’s on the highway for the Accord I4 vs. possibly 40 - 45 City and possibly 45 - 55 mpg on the highway from the Accord Hybrid. Did you see me mention any of these numbers anywhere? CR’s 150 mile highway fuel economy tests are not driven by someone that has any concern or knowledge of Hypermileage skills in the least. What they do however is perform a great 150 mile roundtrip test run and what they receive is what is printed.
I think you're just going to have to buy one to find out.
___I wouldn’t buy one even if it received Insight type mileage because the $’s don’t make sense. What I will do however is try to get a test drive in one with the tires pressed up to 40 #’s or so and compare with my std. I4 Accord EX-L w/ NAVI test drive from a few weeks ago. Unfortunately the temps will not be conducive to high fuel economy but I have a scale I can use to adjust for outside ambient using my experience in the game gauged equipped MDX and Insight in varying temps for comparison only purposes.
That said, if mpg is your absolute highest priority, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. The HAH is about saving fuel without giving up any performance. Cars that give up performance (Prius or Civic hybrid) sound like a better choice for you.
___I am not considering an AH as stated above but I want to point out that if you aren’t going to use the AH’s 255 HP (I don’t know why anyone actually would other then to show off or burn gas to feel a kick in their backside now and then), it like all Hybrid’s are a very expensive real world proposition. This does not just include the fuel economy gain in the equation but like I posted to Robertsmx, what are you going to have to spend when or if one of those active mounts goes FUBAR let alone the possibility of a Pack replacement at 150, 200, or 250K miles down the road? Loss of the sunroof and the gain of 2.5 seconds to 60 does actually costs over $8,000 in the real world. That is a lot of $’s to swallow when looking at an AH purchase from a practical standpoint over and above a cleaner emitting I4 EX-L w/ NAVI.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
All four valves in the three cylinders are sealed when VCM activates. The piston, however, still moves with no combustion inside.
With that, I believe the std. Accord I4’s final gear ratio is taller?
Overall gearing is impacted not only by axle ratio, but also by the gear ratio (fifth in this case) as well as the wheel size (Accord EX and Accord V6 models use P205/60/R16 tires, HAH has P215/60/R16)
Overall Drive Ratio (Fifth Gear) / Wheel Diameter
Accord EX: 2.512 (4.438*0.566) / 25.685 inch
Accord V6: 2.303 (4.429*0.52) / 25.685 inch
Accord Hybrid: 2.319 (4.375*0.53) / 26.157 inch
As a result, at 60 mph, the cruising engine speed will be:
Accord EX: 1971 rpm
Accord V6: 1806 rpm
Accord Hybrid: 1780 rpm
HAH has a taller effective gearing than Accord V6. This came as a surprise to me since Odyssey w/VCM has slightly shorter gearing than without.
You will see what part of IMA charging is regen and what part is simply a drag on the ICE for yourself when you get to spend some time behind the wheel of an IMA equipped Honda Hybrid.
Well, experience is the best way to judge anything. But that part (if not all) of the otherwise wasted energy does get recycled.
How else do you think I achieved an ~ 34 mpg reading in a rented Buick LeSabre with the A/C on full blast
Speaking of LeSabre, I had a rental car during my trip to Grand Canyon (from Dallas). I averaged 29 mpg.
Sadly then, you should have traded for the V6 about let us say 7 years ago then?
Not really. Even though I occasionally (key word) floor the pedal, I still manage better fuel economy with I-4 than with V6. At about 20 mpg versus 24 mpg, and with an estimated 50% of the 107K miles driven in city, that’s about 450 gallons of fuel saved.
And saving fuel isn’t the only target I have when I drive but it would be nice to have the best of both worlds.
Should we talk about what it will cost to repair an active mount(s) at the 40,000, 80,000, or 120,000 mile point?
Chances are, active mount will make its way into cars without VCM. The engine mount system these days is hardly a bolt the engine to frame set up.
That $8,000 + is a lot of money for that 2.5 seconds, loss of the sunroof, poorer emissions but most aren’t thinking with their heads when they purchase Hybrid’s or V6’s actually :-(
Poorer emissions? Where did you get the numbers from? EPA ratings aside, do you really think if I drove 5 miles in city while encountering at least 5 lights on the way, the HAH will have poorer emissions?
As for $8K premium ($7K to be exact since 1998 Accord EX-L carried a price tag of $23,145), in this case you get what you pay for, in this case, near luxury appointments.
OTOH, an HAH could be a good financial decision if their alternative is to buy a luxury car costing thousands more. Anyway, since when is the purchase of a loaded $30,000+ sedan a totally emotionless decision?
___Any Accord purchase whether that be an I4, V6, or AH over and above a $30,000 Lux automobile is probably a smarter decision. As you and I have gone round and round in the past, the TCO of an Accord is better then anything in its class already. Add another few thousand/tens of thousands for a lux automobile of whoever’s manufacture on top of that and those $’s/mile numbers become really stupid looking real fast. My Wife’s MDX is one of the better semi-lux/lux SUV’s and its TCO is completely ridiculous. She wouldn’t drive a more sensible Accord or Camry unfortunately
Who really needs a leather interior, or alloy wheels, or a killer stereo, or a DVD entertainment system, or a factory nav system, or automatic climate control, or any of the other features that push car prices up? People buy cars like that because it adds pleasure to their lives--is that a bad thing?
___In the case of the AH vs. std. I4 or even the V6 for that matter, you lose some luxury with the loss of sunroof. You do gain some fuel economy in the hwy/city (possibly for most?) and receive a great performing vehicle (0 - 60 in 6.5 vs. 7.0 and 9.0 respectively) but will you use the performance and will you receive that much better then Robertsmx already decent 31/32 mpg highway in his Accord for an out of this world $8,000 increase in the price tag for the same automobile?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
an out of this world $8,000 increase in the price tag for the same automobile?
Take the hybrid out of the picture, and you could get a $16K Accord or a $28K Accord, a hefty premium for the same car. Couldn't you? Let us not lose sight of facts that conveniences cost $$$.
One person's sunroof is another person's 0-60 in 6.5 seconds with high fuel economy. Honda has attacked a market niche that no one else has to date, and they will sell cars because of it.
___Simple question for you. Would you pay $8,000 for the same car minus a sunroof that is faster to 60 by 2.5 seconds and might achieve 4 - 5 mpg better fuel economy?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
All four valves in the three cylinders are sealed when VCM activates. and HAH has a taller effective gearing than Accord V6.
___Thanks I didn’t know that but the AH has different and taller tires then the EX’s?
Well, experience is the best way to judge anything. But that part (if not all) of the otherwise wasted energy does get recycled.
___The problem is that you are carrying around almost 300 #’s of excess weight all the time to gain that supposed free energy back for a few seconds of every trip. It isn’t worth it in the Insight (< 200 #’s of hybrid gear) and I highly doubt it is worth it in the AH either.
Even though I occasionally (key word) floor the pedal, I still manage better fuel economy with I-4 than with V6. At about 20 mpg versus 24 mpg, and with an estimated 50% of the 107K miles driven in city, that’s about 450 gallons of fuel saved.
___Back to that $8,000 vs. real world fuel economy again I have a sneaky feeling that CR’s receives ~ the same fuel economy with the AH as they did with the I4 EX out on the highway. In the city, it’s a 24 vs. 30 mpg rating. We shall see soon enough as stated a number of times now. Given most cannot reach even City EPA estimates, they are more then likely hitting the accelerator pretty hard. I highly doubt you will see VCM activated while accelerating from a stop although a hypermiler will be able to at least test it capabilities for all its worth ;-)
Chances are, active mounts will make its way into cars without VCM. The engine mount system these days is hardly a bolt the engine to frame set up.
___They are not in the std. Accord’s right now so if one goes belly up, where does that leave you? With an I4, they could have VCM’ed it without active mounts and probably without a balance shaft ala Insight using its IMA. The V6 on 3 cylinders definitely needed a tremendous engineering effort given the imbalance of 2 cylinders on one side and 1 on the other.
Poorer emissions? Where did you get the numbers from? EPA ratings aside, do you really think if I drove 5 miles in city while encountering at least 5 lights on the way, the HAH will have poorer emissions?
___Yes, poorer emissions. You can look them up for yourself although the AH isn’t yet listed. Given its rated as a ULEV-II, it isn’t nearly as clean as any PZEV including the std. I4 Accord PZEV.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
As for $8K premium ($7K to be exact since 1998 Accord EX-L carried a price tag of $23,145), in this case you get what you pay for, in this case, near luxury appointments.
___Why would you pay more then $23,800 for an Accord I4 EX-L w/ NAVI when that is what you can pick them up for? The AH w/ NAVI will be south of $32K by all accounts. That is > $8,000. In the case of near luxury appointments, we are speaking of the same car. The AH w/ NAVI vs. the Accord I4 EX-L w/ NAVI. The AH gets the hybridization and the V6 (I did forget to mention that it also includes the V6’s TCS) whereas the I4 gets the powered sunroof for > $8,000 difference in your pocket.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The problem is that you are carrying around almost 300 #’s of excess weight all the time to gain that supposed free energy back for a few seconds of every trip. It isn’t worth it in the Insight and I highly doubt it is worth it in the AH either.
More like 129 pounds. The benefit extends beyond "a few seconds" of energy on every trip. How about silence and zero fuel consumed (and zero emissions) at every stoplight? How about a boost when accelerating from cruise (rather than firing up the other 3 cylinders)? And of course the power boost when full throttle is needed.
Question for you: what kind of car do I want?
___I don’t know what you want but here is another for you? Would you pay $8,000 more for whatever you want if it had a 2.5 seconds to 60 better trap time and loses a sunroof?
___And in direct relation to the AH. Would you pay $8,000 more for the AH minus a sunroof that is faster to 60 by 2.5 seconds and might achieve 4 - 5 mpg better fuel economy then the I4 EX-L w/ NAVI?
___Robertsmx, this question would be very pertinent to you given it sounds like you are sold on the AH already?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
That's right! So you don't know what my buying criteria are, what my economic situation is, and how they differ from yours or the next person's. Whether or not I would personally buy a HAH today (and I wouldn't) is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I am not in Honda's target market for the HAH. The question that will be answered very soon is, how many people overall think that the performance and fuel economy (and uniqueness and other intangibles) of the HAH are worth the price?
More like 129 pounds.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6134289/
To counter the added weight from the electric motor and battery pack, the Accord Hybrid features an aluminum hood, aluminum suspension components and unique lightweight alloy wheels. In place of a spare tire, Honda provides a flat-tire repair system. Still, the Accord Hybrid weighs in about 175 lbs. more than the Accord EX V6.
___No, it is not even close to just 129 #’s. Honda removed the spare, removed the sunroof, used lighter weight wheels, added an aluminum hood and suspension knuckles as well as god knows what else to achieve a < 3,500 # automobile. The Hybrid drivetrain is in excess of 300 #’s although I don’t know where I read that. Probably Temple of VTEC but I cannot find it.
___So would you pay $8,000 more for the same car minus a powered sunroof for that 2.5 seconds to 60? The emissions from an IMA start are not that great as there is a significant NOx spike so saving emissions from an autostop isn’t really a goal and Honda does its best not to talk about it. As for silence at the light Since I drive an IMA based Hybrid daily, that particular aspect is way over rated. Below 40 degrees and Autostop is deactivated. There are a number of reasons for this but not for this forum.
___Looking at the AH vs. a std. Accord EX-L w/ NAVI from a practical stand point, how is that $8,000 justified? First AH on the block? That is always a good reason to spend another $8,000! I am saving fuel? Not really given the excess energy needs to produce the Hybrid HW over and above a std. Accord let alone what I have already brought up in the CR’s 150 mile test loop might never make up for it. I am saving the environment? Not your local city environment given the ULEV-II rating vs. a PZEV. CO2 wise, maybe if you do in fact achieve higher fuel economy then that of the I4. It has to be that 0 – 60 performance and that $8,000 is a steep price to pay for that performance imho.
___There will be a ton of initial purchasers for an AH at first but how many will years from now realize, wow, I should have purchased the I4 and paid off a year of my son or daughters college tuition, room, and board instead?
That's right! So you don't know what my buying criteria are, what my economic situation is, and how they differ from yours or the next person's.
___So you would have spent $8,000 more for that Hyundai 5 door earlier this year if it would have had a 2.5 second to 60 time then? No, you wouldn’t have and I don’t know a thing about your economic situation other then you purchased a 5-doors hatch something or other earlier this year.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
It's funny that you're harping on this. Practically, there is no need for navigation, power windows or locks, rear stabilizer bars, wishbone suspension, or anything more than 50 HP ICE engine in a midsized sedan. Hell, you don't even need A/C. People have survived just fine without it for thousands of years.
In fact, there is no need to spend more than $16000 on a midsize sedan, and hell, I could have gotten away with a compact car instead of the 4-cylinder Accord that I got myself.
There is no need to purchase a Dodge Viper over a Chevy Cavalier practically speaking. Either will be just as likely get you from A to B.
Why would I be eyeing the RX-8 Sports trim, which is in the same price range as the HAH, and only has maybe a .5 second quicker 0-60 time over the Accord HAH, and much less interior space? Backy may have spent the extra $8,000 for a Hyundai 5 door that was 2.5 seconds faster to 60. Again, you are assuming everybody thinks the same as you do.
Curb weight of Accord EX-V6 with automatic transmission: 3386
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp- - ?ModelName=Accord+Sedan&Category=2
Curb weight of Accord Hybrid, as tested by C/D as reported in their 12/04 issue (honda.com doesn't have curb weight for the HAH yet): 3513
Check my math, but it looks like 129 pounds to me, not 300 pounds as you stated in an earlier post (something about hauling 300 more pounds around).
Instead of beating a dead horse here, maybe you could go over to the Hummer discussion and beat on them for paying so much money for a vehicle that really wrecks havoc with the environment. Or the Viper discussion, and ask why someone really needs to pay all that money for a totally impractical car that has way too much power for street use.
And since my purchase of a Hyundai (two, actually) has absolutely nothing to do with the HAH, maybe we could get back on track?
It's funny that you're harping on this. Practically, there is no need for navigation, power windows or locks, rear stabilizer bars, wishbone suspension, or anything more than 50 HP ICE engine in a midsized sedan. Hell, you don't even need A/C. People have survived just fine without it for thousands of years.
___That is right! Except that you cannot pick up an AH without all these bells and whistles. With that, you might as well compare the AH to same car without hybridization.
Again, you are assuming everybody thinks the same as you do.
___Not in the least. I do however have quite a different perspective on the bottom line then most as well as driven a Honda Hybrid for almost a year. Just in case the casual reader hasn’t thought of the few items I have brought up, I thought I might mention the differences in this thread
___As for Backy, I don’t remember the details about his hatchback purchase but I do know he wasn’t willing to spend Prius $’s for a similarly sized hybrid automobile no matter the supposed extreme increase in fuel economy, lower emissions, and the perceived higher reliability of that particular Hybrid.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Could we PLEASE get back on topic?
___Maybe you missed the link I provided?
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6134289/
To counter the added weight from the electric motor and battery pack, the Accord Hybrid features an aluminum hood, aluminum suspension components and unique lightweight alloy wheels. In place of a spare tire, Honda provides a flat-tire repair system. Still, the Accord Hybrid weighs in about 175 lbs. more than the Accord EX V6.
___Care to add that spare tire now? I don’t know why? Maybe just in case you have more then just a blow out while driving far from home? To achieve that weight difference, they had to remove the sunroof, spare tire, and aluminumize more HW. The Hybrid HW alone weighs more then 300 #’s and there is a mileage penalty for having to carry it around.
___Accord I4 EX-L w/ NAVI: 3,203 vs. 3,513 #’s for the AH. You can check my math as well.
___So would you pay $8,000 more for the AH and its loss of sunroof to gain that 2.5 seconds to 60? How is that for back on track?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I had thought that it was generally agreed apon that any hybrid is currently not worth the premium over an equivalent ICE only vehicle if you're just taking savings on fuel costs alone, or even when pertaining to the total polution cost of a vehicle (pollution during production of the vehicle and pollution emmitted by the vehicle during its running life), but it can be a good idea to repeat that. Hopefully, the people that end up getting the hybrids can fully understand what they are getting into. The early adopters of any new technology paves the way for that technology to become part of the mainstream. The same thing happened with VTEC, to use another Honda technology.
And the point of the Honda Accord Hybrid has been repeated over and over in this discussion. Honda has taken notice that many people have complained that "hybrids are much too slow", and now Honda is blowing that complaint out of the water while still (potentially) getting better MPG than the 4-cylinder equivalent. Hell, many people describe the 4-cylinder Accord to be pretty quick with a 8.8 second 0-60 acceleration.
___Right again I really haven’t seen the $8,000 price differential being bantered about for the same automobile other then the differences being discussed.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Now you are comparing a 4-cylinder Accord to a V6?
___Have you read anything posted correctly in the last 20 or so posts? These aren’t Echo’s but 2 Accord’s where one is 2.5 seconds faster then the other minus a sunroof and costing $8,000 more.
___What does the Echo have to do with a Honda Accord anyway?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
so we are comparing a 4 banger to a V6 ?