Hybrid Honda Accord

backy

I can think of a few, e.g. Crossfire, Corvette, GTO, and many others that would be hardly breaking a sweat at 80. Back to my question about the HAH, though: if it CAN cruise at 80 on 3 cylinders, it would join the ranks of those speed cruisers and probably do better than all of them in mpg.

307web

I've driven in LA rush hour and was lucky to hit 29 MPH in spots.

viet

I drive my Accord I4 or V6 EX at 75 miles/ hours on highway and still get 30MPG and 20MPG respectively.

viet

Sorry guys, mistyped while in my hurry. I drive "my baby Accords I4 and V6" 75 to 79 miles/hour on highways and still get 30MPG and 32MPG respectively. I keep "my line of Accords" in top conditions with periodic maintenance so "my babies behave real good". I really enjoy hearing my 95 I4 with almost 200K miles roaring and reving up its engine on the roads. The V6 is only for pleasure drive.

midnightcowboy

No I expect a 5% rise in really good years, 10% average and 15% in really bad years. We will see $5.00 per gallon within 12 years.

Just look at the law of 72 (divide annual percentage into 72 to determine the lenght before the principal doubles). If you have a 15% increase the price will double in 5 years.

YMMV,

MidCow

Kirstie_H

But your percentage increase estimates don't make any sense from a historical perspective! 20 years ago, the nominal prices (as opposed to inflation-adjusted price) for a gallon of gas was $1.20. Using the most modest of your estimated increases (5%), we should now be at over $3.00 per gallon.

It does, however, seem to make sense that if you're concerned mainly about gas mileage and fuel costs, that you'll be happy to give up some power and adjust driving habits to achieve the result. I'm sure some drivers now manage to achieve 26+ MPG in their conventional Accords, and I'm equally sure that one could manage to get way less than that in the HAH, depending on driving habits.

midnightcowboy

Historical trend- YES, I am saying, and you picked up on it, that in the case of gas prices the past indicators are not necessarily a predictor of the future. The price increase will no longer be linear or based on past price trending. Does that make more sense now???

YMMV,

MidCow

Kirstie_H

OK, I'm sure I misunderstood - where math is involved, I usually do!

However, I think it's very hard to predict future gas price trends given that there is NO discernable pattern to the historical data. That makes it really hard to establish a basis for a future trend!

backy

Also, we cannot go on historical trends here because of changing market conditions, e.g. the growth of huge markets for oil such as China. Anyone who can reasonably predict future gas prices should not be wasting their time on Town Hall but should be making megabucks on oil futures.

Kirstie_H

That's just what I was thinking! If I was missing something that would clue me in to a future trend, this would be my last message

To get back on topic, if I knew MidCow's numbers were accurate, I'd invest in a fleet of HAHs and re-sell them at a whopping profit.

dewey

Historically you could have made megabucks on oil futures by being a contrarian . Currently the herds are stampeding towards profiting from higher oil prices. Remember there has never ever been a market that has only moved up in one direction. Not a single market. Not equities, not commodities(oil included), not real estate. None! A shrewd contrarian would be wise by betting against an oil rise. I guess it is time to buy that V8 Yukon with a 10k discount and cancel that HAH order with a hefty premium(just kidding).

robertsmx

HAH should be able to run with VCM activated at 80 mph. In a test drive of JDM Inspire (American Accord in Japan), that has had VCM for a year, a person noted it "triggering" at 100 mph on track straightways.

robertsmx

I don’t see a point in buying a near luxury car for economy reasons. One would do better by getting Accord LX (or DX for that matter) to simply save $$$. Saving money isn’t the sole point of Accord Hybrid, but only one half of it. It is about saving money while not adding to the performance. Some people want that!

As far as C&D number is concerned, there is no way to analyze what 26 mpg means. I’ve suggested this several times in the past that the best way to judge hybrid advantage (or any fuel saving technology) is to drive a normal car (Accord EXV6) against its “other” version (Accord Hybrid) under similar conditions. C&D did a good job in its “fuel misers” issue from couple of months ago (Civic Hybrid, Prius, Jetta Diesel and Echo).

And if you want to base your opinion on hybrid mileage as being inaccurate based on what C&D achieved (under some condition), you might want to consider the same for Corvette C6 that C&D tested and obtained 15 mpg (rated, 19-20 mpg/28 mpg?).

backy

I read in C/D's review of the HAH that VCM triggers at 3500 rpms. If the HAH can maintain 80 mph with 3 cylinders below 3500 rpms, that will do it.

robertsmx

If 3500 rpm limit is true, HAH would be traveling at well past 100 mph at 3500 rpm.

zitch

In my 4-cylinder 5 speed auto at 75 MPH, the tachometer shows right at 2500 RPMs in 5th gear with the torque converter locked. Assuming the gear ratios are the same with the Hybrid Accord, it will be going 105 MPH at 3500 RPMs in 5th gear. Not quite "well past 100", but probably far above what most people cruise at...

robertsmx

Okay, I guess I need to do the math. Here we go (throwing in Accord V6 for comparison):

Accord V6
Fifth Gear Overall Drive Ratio: 2.303
Wheel Diameter: 25.685 inch
Wheel Speed at 3500 rpm = 3500 * 25.685/(336*2.303) = 116 mph
Cruising RPM at 60 mph: 1805 rpm

Accord Hybrid
Fifth Gear Overall Drive Ratio: 2.319
Wheel Diameter: 26.16 inch
Wheel Speed at 3500 rpm = 3500 * 26.16/(336*2.319) = 118 mph :-)
Cruising RPM at 60 mph: 1788 rpm

backy

Does the fact that you'd be running on only 3 cylinders, in effect a 1.5L engine, have anything to do with it? Or is it just based on gear ratios and wheel diameters?

robertsmx

Wheel speed is directly related to engine rpm. Engine output doesn’t matter. This is why the gear ratio spread becomes a limiting factor in cruising speed, and CVT allows the widest spread of all transmissions (6-sp automatic transmission are approaching CVT-like spread). BTW, by “spread” I mean ratio of first gear ratio to final gear ratio.

I was expecting HAH to have a shorter final gear (like VCM equipped Odyssey compared to non-VCM Odyssey). It does indeed have a shorter fifth ODR (2.31 compared to 2.30), but taller tires make the effective gearing taller, but for most practical purposes, we could say they are geared identically.

midnightcowboy

Is also has to do with the fact that once your reach a cruising speed, the only power you need to maintain that speed is the power necessary to overcome air resistance and rolling tire friction. The power needed to accelerate is substantially more.

Talking about gear spread, If more car manufacturers that have 5+ speed automatics and manuals would actually make the top gear or 2 really tall like the Corvette does (0.50), making the effective final drive 1.71 The other interesting transmission is Fro'ds new chain drive CVT in the 500 with a really really wide ratio = ZF-Batavia Continuously Variable Transmission Chain Drive Ratio range 2.47:1-0.41:1 Final drive ratio 4.98:1(FWD) 5.19:1(AWD)
Whe you multiple 2.47 by 4.98 you get a very low 12.30 to a tall highway gear of 0.41 * 4.98 = 2.0418 dividing thw low/high gives a spread of 6.024

YMMV,

MidCow

robertsmx

6.0 is usually considered a CVT-class spread. Most automatics (and 5/6 speed manuals) range between 4 and 5.

New 6-speed automatics (and Acura's 5-sp auto in RL) fall in 5.5-6.0 range.

usbseawolf2000

"Yes the HAH will be easier to market because Honda makes a superior product."

Power does not translate to technological superiority. HAH is basically V6-EX with scooter electric motor slapped on. Let's see how many HAH Honda will sell compare to Prius. Maybe we can estimate. How many percent buy 4 cyl Accord and how many buy 6 cyl Accord? How many of those will buy HAH and we should have the projection.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

"Again, thanks for the correction. If we ever increase the size of our staff to more than one, I will look you up!"

You are welcome, anytime.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

"Wheel speed is directly related to engine rpm. Engine output doesn’t matter."

For automatic transmission with torque converter, it does matter. According to you, Accord auto would have 0 RPM while idling at stop light. Idling engine RPM is 800 to 1,000 RPM which is made possible by torque converter slipping.

So, at high speed 80 mph as backy said, there would be wind and tire drags working against the ICE. There will be slips in torque converter as described in idling. Therefore, 3,500 RPM at 80mph is possible.

Another way to analyze it is to check how much drag is created by 80mph driving. 60mph create 15hp drag. Therefore, 70mph at 30hp and 80mph at 60hp. HAH running on 3 cylinders will need to create around 60 horsepower to maintain 80mph. How much power HAH output with 3cyl at 3,500RPM? EX-V6 peaks 212 lbs-ft at 6,250 RPM. Assuming 3 cylinders can create 95 lbs-ft at 3,500 RPM, we get this formula:

3,500RPM Output = (95 lbs-ft X 3,500 RPM) / 5,500
3,500RPM Output = 60 horsepower

The result seems to add up. When VCM is activated, 3 cylinder active engine will increase RPM to produce enough power to maintain at high speed.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

"Is also has to do with the fact that once your reach a cruising speed, the only power you need to maintain that speed is the power necessary to overcome air resistance and rolling tire friction."

So you do acknowledge that maintaining high speed take more gas than lower speed. Explain how can HAH has higher highway EPA mpg rating than city?

Dennis

backy

Interesting analysis, thanks.

midnightcowboy

In the city you are accelerating and braking in lower gears. As I said before acceleration takes its toll on fuel.

On the highway, once you reach crusing speed you are not accelerating you are only overcoming friction: wind resistance, tire resistance, mechanical ,etc. But you are in a taller more efficient gear and you are not wasting energy accelerating.

The wind resistance does increase, but to assume it is 15 hp at 60 mph and doubles every 10 miles per hour higher is a naive, simplistic view. If that were true very few cars could go 90 mph and almost none 100mph. That being said if you really want to conserve gas go slower, accelerate and brake more gently in the far right lane . 60 mph is very good , 55 is better, 50 is even better and optimum is acheved at around 45 mph in your highest gear or highest CVT ratio. However, it is hard to lug in a CVT.

The Toyota HSD system gets better city mpg by using the electric motor torque and traction battery power. its highway mileage is affected by resistance and inefficiencies of CVT and the Atkinsion engine

YMMV,

MidCow

P.S.- - A whole other thread could be developed on wind resistance and friction.

midnightcowboy

Actually the when you said "HAH is bascially V6-EX with scooter ecletric motor slapped on.." I don't think you meant to be complementary, but actually you hit on the reason the HAH will be an overwelming success.

The HAH retains all of the goods points of the traditional Accord (except sunroof). It is an evolutionary step not a revolutionary step.

You still have the tradtional look and feel of the Honda Accord only with much better mileage and a better performance. The leather, power seats, auto air conditioning, ergonomic layout of controls remains the same. It is familiar. It feels comforable. It is accepted by the demographics that accept ICE Accords.

You will see a lot of 4-cylinder converts , when they find they can get slightly better milage with the HAH and many of the V6 enthusiasts will pay the additional $3K to get better mileage.

It is a funny human phenomena, people are as concerned about the known as the are about the unknown. People are willing to pay a known $3k additioonal purchase price as a hedge against the unknown future cost of gas which appears to be endlessly rising.

Having said that peoeple are not willing to give up performance aand handling as the current Prius implementation promotes. I think Prius is only slightly ahead of the latent demand curve. As soon as the HAH and other hybrids come out and if and when Prius actually increase s production, IMHO you begin seeing Prius prices go down and they will become readily available. Right now, the Prius enjoys limited production and limited competition. One wonders if it is Toyota asking Panasonic to limit their battery supply or the other way around???

YMMV,

MidCow

usbseawolf2000

"In the city you are accelerating and braking in lower gears."

Why would lower gears be bad in the city? In fact, you don't want to accelerate in high gear in the city. The most efficient gear for acceleration at low speed is low gear. What's your point?

"As I said before acceleration takes its toll on fuel."

You agreed that acceleration request higher engine load than highway cruising. Here is the fact: Internal Combustion Engine is most efficient at full load. Therefore, ICE would be more efficient when accelerating rather than cruising. You statement is incorrect. It is the deacceleration(friction brakes) that take it's toll on the fuel.

Hybrids can recapture that energy back into the battery when braking. In theory, if regen brake can recover 100% energy, city mpg should be higher than highway mpg as explained above. You even acknowledged that there are more drags at high speed than low speed. That's another reason HAH's highway mpg should be lower than it's city mpg. Then why HAH's city mpg is lower than it's highway mpg? One way to explain is that regen brakes recapture very little energy. It makes sense because HAH is equipped only with 16hp generator. Most of the fuel used to accelerate ended up in the friction brake pads. That is why HAH's city mpg is lower than highway mpg!

"On the highway, ..... you are in a taller more efficient gear and you are not wasting energy accelerating."

The most efficient gear depends on the speed of the car. Yes, high gear is suitable for high speed. What is your point? You consider the fuel that used to get up to the highway speed a waste? LOL

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

"One wonders if it is Toyota asking Panasonic to limit their battery supply or the other way around?"

That same one should also wonder if Honda and Ford are asking Sanyo to limit their battery supply or the other way around.

Dennis

zitch

"So, at high speed 80 mph as backy said, there would be wind and tire drags working against the ICE. There will be slips in torque converter as described in idling. Therefore, 3,500 RPM at 80mph is possible."

Do you understand what a locking torque converter is? Or how it works? Both the regular ICE I4 and V6 automatics use locking torque converters. When the Accord is cruising above 50 MPH (at least in my I4), the torque converter locks up and there is no slip! From what I understand, the hybrid Accord may use a locking TC that locks up between each gear change, and unlocks in certain situations where slip is needed (such as at a stop).

As for your discussion about overcoming drag, the general rule is you need 4 times the power to go twice the speed. So if you need 15 HP to overcome drag at 60 MPH, you'll need 60 HP to overcome drag at 120 MPH.

vicever

How about calculate mileage this way. Engin uses cylinder to burn gas. we know the ratio between gas and air are maintained fixed. And we also know the air taken in each stoke of the is also fixed to maintain the compression. So the gas in each buring cycle burned is fixed. So the gas burned in certain time is proportional to engin speed rpm. Devideing the actual speed of the car by the amount of the gas burned in a fixed time, we have the mileage. As a result, the mileage is proportional to speed and in reverse proportional to engin speed and cylinder volume.

Applying this formula to every day experience, we know when accelarating, the car moving slowly yet engin runing fast thus low mileage. In high way, car moves fast and engin runs in relatively low speed, thus we have high mileage. In hybrid car, ignoring the energe stored in battery for in the long run the energy going in roughly eaquals the energy going out, in low speed, engin may run or may not, this translates to high mileage. In highway, the hybrid does not have much advantage except maybe a smaller cylinder, thus a litte high mileage than a conventional car that is same size but equiped with a bigger cylinder to keep low speed acceleration acceptable.

backy

If it's ok with you, I'm just going to keep on calculating mileage (i.e. fuel economy) by dividing miles driven by gallons of gas used. Your way makes my head hurt. :-#

viet

I usually calculate MPG on every gas tank as Backy. Miles driven/ gallons of gas consumed. It is simple.

Also, I just checked oil in my Accord 95 I4 with almost 200K miles. No oil was burned. Pretty much "oil tight" huh ?

viet

The Canadiandriver.com said the HAH will cost a little lower than 40K. I love to buy 2 HAHs in the next 18 months. 1 for my son and 1 for me. I have to email and call around over 20 Honda dealerships to put my name on their wait list. Jesus! What a crowd of Accord enthusiasts !

gagrice

"Honda says the Accord sedan has 14 cubic feet of trunk space and the Civic 12.9 cubic feet. Consumer Reports found the Accord could carry three “wheelie” suitcases and three crushable duffel bags, while the Civic could handle four suitcases and one duffel bag.
Among top-selling midsize cars, Consumer Reports ranks the Toyota Camry, Chevrolet Impala and Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable twins higher than the Accord because all can carry five suitcases."

http://www.theday.com/eng/web/news/re.aspx?re=452ECE69-F490-4FFA-- 90B6-186528559ED9

backy

The article is in error. CR ranks the Accord first for 4-cylinder family cars, ahead of the Camry, and ranks it just behind the Camry and far ahead of the Impala and Taurus/Sable for 6-cylinder family cars.

gagrice

I think you missed the point of the article. It had to do with cargo space in different vehicles. And that was the CR ratings for "cargo space" how much stuff you can haul. My issue is that the HAH has even less trunk space becasue of the batteries.

Among top-selling midsize cars, Consumer Reports ranks the Toyota Camry, Chevrolet Impala and Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable twins higher than the Accord because all can carry five suitcases.

The magazine gives its highest passenger-car cargo ratings to large sedans, the Ford Crown Victoria, Mercury Grand Marquis and Lincoln Town Car (all are related), along with the Buick Park Avenue and the Cadillac DeVille.

backy

I didn't miss the point of the article. CR doesn't rate cars for how much cargo they can hold. They do mention in their reviews how many suitcases and duffels they were able to put into the trunk. If that's what the article meant when it said CR rates the other cars higher because they can carry five suitcases, I think it's a very misleading statement in the least, since CR's car ratings are based on many factors.

viet

I totally support Backy's point. For many years, Consumer Report has rated the Accord as the "best buy" mid-size car. You can easily find this fact many other magazines/ websites such Car & Driver, Road & Track, Edmunds, Car.com, etc. They all rate the Accord very high. IntelliChoice rates all Honda (Accord, Civic, CRV, Odessey,etc) as best and "intelligent" choices.

An article I read a while ago put it "When somebody buys a Honda he/she will never buy any other cars...". It is correct to me. I have found Honda engineers are very smart and logical in every way. They work very hard to design their cars to truly meet customers' needs and desires. You sit behind a Honda's wheel and you find every thing logical, interesting and pleasant. When I bought the V6 03 for my son, I sat behind the wheel and I was immediately impressed that all odometers on the dash were brightened up magnificiently without turning the lights inside the car. It was a big surprise to me. It pleased me a lot with those tiny details. I do love the fact Honda has committed to true innovation to make their cars more valuable. I have enjoyed every ride on my "Accords line-up", from my small 86 Civic I4 to my 2003 Accord V6 EX. They make sense, fuel saving yet more power than other cars at same class, durable, low maintenance cost, etc. I love the hear my V6 VTEC engines roaring and purring like a small happy kitten at the stop lights and also the sound when I shut the doors or the trunk lid. It is true for many other drivers too.

Surely, the car rating (by Consumer Report) is based on many different factors and it is pretty much comprehensive. I am going to buy a HAH with a NAV soon and another HAH within 18 months even though the trunk space may be a little bit smaller due to the battery. If Honda had not introduced the HAH I would have bought the 2005 V6 EX already.

Now, I have to think how I can sell the Accord 95 with 200K miles to get a little bit more money for my down payment. For sure, when you "invest" in buying an Accord you will not be at lost.

gagrice

An article I read a while ago put it "When somebody buys a Honda he/she will never buy any other cars...".

I bought a new Accord in 1978 and it was a disaster. So many problems this forum does not have the bandwidth for me to set out all the trouble I had.

That being said I know they are much better cars than when they started out. I would consider the Accord Diesel if they ever decide to bring them to the states. I would not consider the HAH because they have gone more for performance than economy. that makes no sense to me. If you want a fast car buy a Porsche or Corvette. I think they are missing the mark by not making an Accord hybrid that gets at least 40-45 mpg.

backy

How big is the trunk in the Porsche and Corvette? How many people can they hold? What's their fuel economy--anywhere close to 30/37? How much do they cost--more than $30,000?

Maybe today's gas/electric hybrid technology doesn't support a mid-sized car that gets both 40-45 mpg and blistering 0-60 performance. Until it does, buyers will have to choose which is more important to them: 0-60 times or high fuel economy.

gagrice

Maybe today's gas/electric hybrid technology doesn't support a mid-sized car that gets both 40-45 mpg and blistering 0-60 performance.

That is my point. Blistering performance and economy are not synonymous. Why not just get an Accord with a big V6 that hauls tail. Why add all the extra crap and lose the trunk space? If I built a hybrid that only got 30/37 mpg I sure would not brag about it. I'll bet if you drive the V6 accord at a reasonable speed on the highway you would get close to 37 mpg. The Accord diesel that gets close to 50 mpg is something to brag about.

viet

Backy's reply makes great sense. I rather elect him as "The Accord Man of the Year". The HAH targets the married, middle aged customers, household incomes of $100K or more, conservative. 1/3 HAH customers are loyal Accord owners, etc.

I do not mind much about the 0-60 minute issue, but I do mind about the interior and trunk space, fuel saving, powerful, reliable and durable engine and also the comfort for at least 4 or 5 passengers (5 seats are great to carry along one of my sons' friends if needed). Pricing is reasonable, affordable. I have never been interested in a Porsche or a Corvette at all. Similarly, I am not interested in the Civic Hybrid or the Insight.

viet

My V6 EX can get about 32-33 MPG on highway. With same logic, HAH can achieve 40-41MPG on highway if you do not "press the gas pedal onto the floor at all time".

backy

If you like diesels so much, why not buy a Passat diesel? It's available in most of the U.S. today, lists for almost $2000 less than the HAH, and gets almost the same fuel economy according to the EPA. You won't get 0-60 in 6.5 seconds, but you'll get 15 cubic feet of trunk space. Or there's the Prius, thousands less than the HAH, 45-50 average mpg achievable (something to brag about?), and more cargo space than the HAH. But for those who want luxury, performance, fuel economy, and Honda-like reliability at a somewhat reasonable price, the HAH is the only game in town (or will be soon) at this time.

gagrice

why not buy a Passat diesel? It's available in most of the U.S. today,

That would be my choice in the wagon. However they are not allowed in CA. They are not considered clean enough with the current diesel. Even though ULSD is available in most areas of CA. I doubt the handling or braking of the Accord is up to the Passat, at least from all I have read. Reliability is on the Honda side for sure. VW is having service problems in the US.

viet

Wholeheartedly agreed with Backy, my "friend". I can buy BMW, Mercedes, Lexus or Acura but I dont and incline towards HAH, the guy with the most advanced technology with justifiable pricing.

viet

My friend can get 65-70MPG on his Honda Insight on highway when he imagines he has a little egg under his accelerator during his trips. Another friend can get 60-65MPG on highway on his Civic Hybrid in an ideal driving condition with no wind. My Accord 95 EX I4 constantly gets maximum MPG or a few mile miles more on highway better than the EPA's MPG figures on the car sticker on day one. That is the lovely fact I am mostly fond of on Honda automobiles. Oil tight, great MGP until aging. My Hondas are so dependable to me as my loyal and faithful servants.

dewey

" bought a new Accord in 1978 and it was a disaster."

My 1988 Acura Integra was a disaster. My brother-in law's 1996 Honda Accord is a disaster. Anecdotal evidence is of limited value, but have you noticed the recent trend of Honda reliabiility problems.It is not an encouraging trend.

"If you want a fast car buy a Porsche or Corvette. I think they are missing the mark by not making an Accord hybrid that gets at least 40-45 mpg"

Agree, and let us not forget the BMW . If I want to race I can think of many vehicles better than an HAH. My view is a hybrid's key objectives should be low mileage and emissions. The HAH is not even available in manual(that in itself would save fuel). If I want to save gas I would pick a Prius(although cargo space is not that great despite it being a hatchback)