Hybrid Honda Accord

italian girl

Thanks for the note, 1winglow!

 

Believe me, I care plenty about the cylinders under the hood. And I have a lot of repect for guys who are smart enough to buy good, reliable cars, even if the "flash factor" isn't high. In fact, I've dated men who drove Camrys, Accords, etc., and have found them to be a lot more real and interesting than the Bimmer convertible crowd who were more interested in their own image than anything else.

 

It was the "blue collar" comment that brought the word "elitist" to mind. I'm a white collar girl living in a white collar world, but I have a lot of respect for people who make their living (sometimes a very good one) in blue collar jobs. I don't think "looking blue collar" is anything to be afraid of!

dewey

"than the Bimmer convertible crowd who were more interested in their own image than anything else. "

 

I guess this is what we can call progress! We move from "negative gender stereotyping" towards "negative driver type stereotyping."

 

Keep up the progressive work!

midnightcowboy

The HAH stores in its NiMH battery an energy of 13.8 kilowatt- hours @500V, or about 500V @27.6A. Compare this to the A/C wall outlet of 115V @15A max.

  

Sorry this is incorrect. You have to add a third factor into the equation TIME Notice the word hours in killowatt-hours . Actually the HAH doesn't use 500V , that is the HSD system in the Prius. The HAH battery is rated at 144 volts rated at 13.8 Kilo-Watts at 6 Ampere-hours.

 

If your are interested in a more detailed technical explanation , let me know and I will explain in the technical hybrid thred.

 

Thanks,

 

MidCow

gagrice

You forgot about the 95 hp gain the premium buys also

 

I thought it was a 15 HP gain over the V6 Accord. Plus a 20 ft lbs of torque. That works out to about $600 Per HP. The EX Accord V6 is selling in San Diego for $25,734. The HAH on the lot without NAV has a price tag of $34k. They had it for 10 days when I drove by on Friday.

 

When you say it is a mistake to buy a $50k MB because of reliability. I think if you do some research you would find most of the problems occurred with the "C" class vehicles. MB tried to cut corners to sell mainstream. Bad decision in my Opinion. If you are going to be in the luxury car business stick with it. I see Lexus & Acura falling into the same trap.

midnightcowboy

The 95 Hp gain is over the 160 HP , 4 -cylinder 8>)

gagrice

The 95 Hp gain is over the 160 HP , 4 -cylinder

 

That means about $11k difference. The TMV for a 4 Cylinder Accord EX-L is $23,649 in San Diego. Plus you get your trunk space back and a moonroof thrown in because Honda "loves ya baby"....

gagrice

mistake for people to buy $50,000 Mercedes

 

You can buy the C230 4 door sedan for $29k in San Diego. That is $5k less than the HAH. Plus the MB C230 has a consumer rating of 9.5 for 53 owners. That is higher satisfaction rating than the Accord.

Kirstie_H

Again, this is not a comparisons discussion, and again, we've beaten to death the topic of whether the Hybrid Accord is worth the money over a regular Accord. Please move on.

 

kirstie_h

Roving Host

Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussion

backy

Yes, the earlier comment was regarding a $10k premium so I assumed the post was referring to the 4 cylinder Accord vs. the HAH. As for price, I know I can get a HAH at list in my town and I just saw it advertised in the LA area this past weekend at $500 under list ($30k including destination), so that is a bit over a $6000 difference compared to the EX-L 4 cylinder in Southern CA.

backy

Can you please post the link you found to the consumer satisfaction ratings for the HAH? It's so new I wasn't sure there were any ratings yet.

gagrice

How can a prospective buyer of an Accord Hybrid make an educated decision without looking at the alternatives? Especially cars of the same model, with only differences in the power train. I wonder how many people that see the ads for the HAH will go out and buy without looking at the alternatives. This thread should provide those without getting too far out of context.

Kirstie_H

Please feel free to start a discussion in the Sedans Comparisons board!

robertsmx

Bottom line: If people are willing to pay a premium for Accord Hybrid, why would it be your personal issue? They are doing so to get a car they WANT! Personally, I will wait for prices to be close to, or below MSRP (on any car).

gagrice

Can you please post the link you found to the consumer satisfaction ratings for the HAH?

 

Those are for the 2005 Accord. There are 52 buyers giving all models a 9.2 average rating.

03accordman

Is this a CR rating or an Edmunds rating that you are referring to? And since you do mention Accord, why only the 05 Accord, why not the complete model year? Are you trying to say that the C230 is a more reliable car than the Accord? If yes, please state it clearly, rather than quoting a 52 person satisfaction review.

backy

Since the ratings you mentioned include ALL Accords, including DX, LX, EX, both 4-cylinder and V6, and the HAH has far more luxury appointments and much different performance than many of those cars, I think it would be more fair to look at the satisfaction ratings for the HAH by itself when comparing to other cars.

 

Also the C-class Mercedes is a whole class down from the Accord in terms of size, so being able to buy a C-class for $1000 less than a HAH doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

gagrice

Is this a CR rating or an Edmunds rating that you are referring to?

 

Why Edmund's of course. I would not give you a nickel for anything Consumer Reports says. I did not say anything about reliability on the C230. I compared customer satisfaction of 53 owners of the 2005 C230 and 52 owners of the 2005 Accord. I did not bring MB into this thread. Someone made a rash statement comparing the HAH to a $50k MB and I felt it was without substantiation or merit.

backy

If you look back at 2116 you'll see there was no direct comparison made between the HAH and a $50k Mercedes. It was rather a comment made relative to another poster's concern over the reliability of the "complex" electronics etc. of the HAH. I was trying to point out that other cars (that cost far more than the HAH) have even more complex electronics, and have a worse reliability record compared to Honda.

 

FWIW, I think that comparing a V6 hybrid midsized sedan with 255 hp to a four-cylinder compact sedan is without merit also. :-P

kurtamaxxguy

Hi, Kristie. I have tried starting a new topic which hopefully will let __this__ topic talk more about the HAH itself !!!

Kirstie_H

Great!!

For the others, it's HONDA ACCORD HYBRID - worth the extra $$$?

 
I moved it to the Hybrids board, but that link works.

 

kirstie_h

Roving Host

Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

larsb

When will that forum show in the Hybrid Vehicles category...???????

italian girl

You're right! I try to affirm one group of people and end up slamming another.

 

Just my observation -- not to be taken as a global commentary.

viet

Hi Italian Girl and Bac Ky,

 

Go ahead buying a brand new HAH for you and enjoy it. I am very doubtful that the price will go down very significantly in the near future. I had to buy one at the peak time otherwise I had to run marathon to work every day.

 

In 1 to 2 years if Honda does not introduce new models I may buy another HAH. "Unluckily", they just sent me an ad. for the Honda truck Ridgeline today. But I dont need a truck. At that time, hopefully the HAH price will be a bit cheaper. Prius' price has not gone down. Similarly, it is very tough to get a discount on hot model like Honda Ody. Touring. In 2005 and 2006 there will be plenty of other hybrid vehicles roaming on the roads. Currently, there are about 9,000 customers on the waiting list for the Lexus hybrid RX430.

 

The possibility of driver/ passengers get electrocuted in the HAH when accidents happen is almost non-existing and was the very first item to investigate and test thoroughly by the IIHS before the airbags issue.

 

Facts:

 

2005 Accord V6 EX with NAV.: $29,700 out the door (Buyers may get some discount for this old model now).

 

2005 HAH with NAV. : $35,000 out the door.

 

Price difference is about $5,300. Federal Tax Deduction $2,000. Sale of 80 hours or more of vacation time: $$$$$$$. Saving from some other non-sense expenses (e.g gambling, money spent for the in-laws, "being drooled" into expensive girlie stuff, etc. That will be more than sufficient to cover that small difference and you have the new technology in hands. That's also why we keep changing our PC every 2 or 3 years.

 

Goodie: 255 HP, VCM, IMA, Electrically assisted steering, torque of 232 lbs/ft at low end (less than 4000 RPM), running style like a Super King of the Roads, super smooth like ultra ultra silk, super quiet on the roads, oustanding audio, NAV. system, all safety features, child seats/ restraints, new body reinforcement, 28% stronger than older Accord models, new "thinner" transmission, great MPG, regular unleaded gas, electronic distributed ABS brakes, Traction Control, etc.

 

Honda Inc. sucessfully introduced the first Insight hybrid in the US in 1999. This model ran on the roads in Japan much earlier than 1999. After that, the HCH was another big success. Now the HAH runs on the 3rd generation of IMA. The Accord has been credited for the (assimilated) sport design. The body/ wheelbase is very rigid and pretty low on the ground. Its performace, durability and reliability are excellent. The Accord is the SUPER STAR product from Honda. The HAH is mainly based on the Accord with excellently strong chassis.

 

Go for it BacKy and Italian Girl. Your will never regret. Why somebody tries to stick with old gas conventional cars while automotive technology has changed so rapidly.

 

My coworker just sold his newer Lexus GS300 and bought a small Lexus IS300. He said the GS300 burned down his wallet so fast with gas. He makes lot of money but is still conservative about the gas consumption issue. He also complained that his other BMW was horrendous on gas consumption.

 

My other coworker just "got totaled" in an accident. Somebody hit him in the back of his Accord. He immediately bought another Accord V6 EX. He was interested in the HAH but could not wait for it.

 

Car buying decision is a matter of personal preference and hobby. Of course, I greatly appreciate good, constructive technical and financial advices from everybody.

 

Can some HAH's owners give us some honest feedback about your HAH? Any negative comments? Complaints, etc.? Thanks.

italian girl

I'd just like to keep my '97 Maxima running long enough to get the HAH at MSRP. I'm really not optimistic about it dipping lower than that anytime soon.

 

I'm one of the people on the waiting list for the Lexus, but I'm not going to buy it. I'd love to, but it's going to be way too rich for my blood!

gagrice

Not sure where you live. This post mentioned they are selling for $500 below MSRP in Los Angeles.

 

backy, "Hybrid Honda Accord 2005" #2126, 18 Jan 2005 12:20 pm

kurtamaxxguy

Hopefully "below MSRP" is not result of common LA, CA practice of tired old trick of advertising ONE car (usually already spoken for) at a low price. Once the customer gets to friendly dealer, he/she finds that vehicle is history, but a buncha OTHERS like it are there awaiting the usual haggle.

backy

Unfortunately, that's not just a LA trick. But it does show some willingness to deal. In my area, Honda dealers don't show prices for any vehicles in their ads--just lease rates.

Kirstie_H

Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat - it's open mic night, so come and discuss whatever's on your mind.

 



 

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html

 

6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!

 

kirstie_h

gagrice

In complex cars, Electronics problems are common, very hard to troubleshoot and very expensive to replace. Honda will get very rich selling expensive replacement electronic modules later.

 

A person would be crazy to keep one past the B to B warranty. There are too many unknown parts as you pointed out that can go bad. With only the Honda dealer equipped to trouble shoot and repair. Maybe that is Honda'a plan for the future to get richer.

falconone

Gary... you seem to spend an AWFUL amount of time in a forum about a car you have such disdain for. Odd that you contribute nothing to the suburban discussions.

gagrice

Odd that you contribute nothing to the suburban discussions.

 

How do you improve on perfection. On the other hand the HAH needs a lot of improvement. I did go and sit in one and check it out, have you?

gagrice

you seem to spend an AWFUL amount of time in a forum about a car you have such disdain for

 

On the contrary. I like new gadgets and whirligigs. I just don't waste my money on them. I will buy a couple new vehicles in the next 2-3 years. I want to have all the info available before I dip into my pocket to buy... I doubt from all I have learned on Edmund's that it will be a hybrid. It will more than likely be something with a diesel engine. Maybe even an Accord i-CDTI.

explorerx4

had an '80 scirroco also. never got that kind of mileage. never got it below 30mpg though. i was so happy at 30+. if i had only known!

just remembered; it was a scirroco 's'. maybe it was the tape stripes that did me in.

backy

When the starter has to turn on the V6 engine hundreds times a day as you stop and go in city traffic, compared to having to start the non-hybrid cars 4,5 times a day, that would reduce the life of the starter system proportionally.

 

If that is true, if the "starter" works the same in the HAH as in a normal car (which it doesn't), then we should be seeing premature failures in Insights and Civic Hybrids--and in Priuses. Which we aren't. For example, CR rates both the Prius I and Civic (including the Hybrid) way above average in reliability in engine, ignition, and brakes, and on electrical, the Civic way above average and the Prius I average to way above average. This doesn't demonstrate these components failing in hybrids "hundreds time [sic] sooner than normal."

 

And why are electronic systems more problematic than mechanical systems, e.g. mechanical steering and brakes vs. electronic? I would think that electronic systems would have higher reliability.

viet

Hi Backy:

 

I intended to say exactly as you mentioned above. My friend drove an Insight (hybrid vehicles before 1999) for 185K+ miles with no problems. Civic hybrid has been in market for a number of years while with no problems.

 

My Grand Mama's 10 years old Accord, 200K miles just passed the smog check today after only 10 minutes check. Grand Ma has driven the oldie 200K miles Accord and Grand Pa has maintained it. No problems whatsoever. We owe to our Accord 95 EX I4, 200K miles (the pioneering ancestor of our current HAH) a honorable respect and deep appreciation for its being absolutely loyal and extremely dependent to us for over 10 years, rain or shine.

viet

I have been talking to many friends of mine who are highly experienced mechanics. They all said Japanese are extremely skillful to put things together to build excellent cars. One mechanic friend told me the engine design of those Mercedes are too complex compared to Honda's engines. And he advised me driving Honda/ Toyota. While somebody may think driving popular Honda/ Toyota automobiles may look so cheap without social status I rather pay much attention to the excellent quality, pricing, durability, reliability, MPG, new technology, etc. on the car I buy. The other fleet manager friend said Honda has exchanged automotive technology with BMW (e.g the spark plug wire connector (?) looks similar to BMW's similar parts, etc.).

 

The idea of learning from somebody and make things better is not too bad at all.

1winglow

The Prius runs primarily on electric power. It charges the battery with regenerative braking and engine deceleration.

 

The Prius turns on the gasoline engine ONLY when the battery runs very low and needs recharging, or when you need quick acceleration.

 

Prius' starter therefore only turns on the gas engine occasionally, unlike the HAH which stops then starts the gas engine everytime you stop or slow down below 10MPH.

 

IMHO a lot of Honda's designs are just plain stupid nonsense!

 

I can't help bashing something stupid and expensive to boot! HEHEHEHE.

1winglow

Since it is very unlikely that any after-market manufacturer can realistically copy and manufacture Honda's major electronic modules due to various patents and copyrighted items, Honda should be legally required to disclose predicted MTBF's and replacement prices of all HAH and HCH electronic modules to prospective customers before they buy their cars.

 

A few of us may be in for a shocking surpriiiiiiiiise!

 

A few Prius II owners have been screaming about having to pay for $600 sensors, $1000 E modules, $2000 catalytic converters ... right after the warranty expires. Anybody knows how long the battery will last and how much to replace? It sure ain't gonna last forever!

 

Perhaps down the road, HAH owners could start class-action suits if their repairs and maintenance costs are way out of line....

gfedchak

After seeing how concerned most posters on the hybrid forums seem to be about money, and about cost-effectiveness, I'm beginning to believe that, as a general rule, people with money concerns or a desire to stretch a buck to the max should avoid hybrids or any new technologies in automobiles. That would certainly include $30k + Honda Accord Hybrids.

 

It's just important to keep in mind that if a certain class of buyer - the frugal or those with less means - should stay away from the HAH, that's no reflection on the car. It's just that it should be left to enthusiasts who shrug at $$$ modules, sensors, and the like.

falconone

Nah... have no desire to sit in one. As far as the suburban being something of perfection. You are joking? No stability, poor braking, poor handling...the list goes on. The HAH is moving in the right direction. I applaud the folks that have taken the plunge. It's a shame the dealers are marking them up over on the left coast.

larsb

quote 1winglow-"IMHO a lot of Honda's designs are just plain stupid nonsense! I can't help bashing something stupid and expensive to boot! HEHEHEHE"-end quote

 

Well, the "design" might be "plain stupid nonsense" but in REAL LIFE REAL WORLD driving, the Prius only beats the HCH by about 1 MPG.

 

So Honda's stupidity is pretty darn effective.

gagrice

poor braking, poor handling...the list goes on

 

I agree and would add those shortcomings apply to the HAH also. It is a relative thing. Vehicles all seem to be trade-offs. If you want to haul a lot of stuff and or people in comfort the Suburban is very good. Actually I would say near perfect. And I agree that the dealers in my area seem to think the HAH is something special that they can add $3000 to an already hefty MSRP. I would never pay MSRP for a Suburban, HAH or any vehicle on the planet. So I might add why are you interested in this thread if you do not even have the desire to go look at one?

gagrice

So Honda's stupidity is pretty darn effective.

 

I think that the Honda design for hybrid is actually more practical than the Prius. It boggles the mind thinking of all that can go wrong with HSD and have to depend on Toyota to repair it. I don't believe Honda is as married to the hybrid concept as Toyota seems to be. They have some other power train options that I like in i-CDTI & VCM.

azhah

The HAH engine strart and restart does not use the "starter" rather it uses the IMA motor. It does not "engage" as it is integrated. This motor is designed to turn off & on A LOT. The starter is only used if and when there is no power left in the "Hybrid" batteries. Then and only then are the standard battery and starter used. Often people consider something "stupid" when they simply don't understand it! This car is the sweetest ride I've ever had and I've got a long list of formers to compare it to.

 

 
Additionally, you are mistaken about the brakes being weaker. They are in fact very good. Especially given that the regenerative breaking adds power to the breaks. I posted earlier that the brakes simply require a little getting used to as the pedal pressure required increases some when the V6 autostops.

 

I am dissapopinted in this forum. I made one post concerning my opinion of my new car. Not only did I not see any constructive feedback but all I did\do see is debate as to whether this car is good or not. That debate can happen for any vehicle amongst any cross section of people. If you don't like it go to the forums relating to vehicles you do like. That way us idiots who bought this car can enjoy dialog with other idiots like our selves!

gagrice

I am disapointed in this forum.

 

I am sorry you were not properly welcomed to Edmund's. A lot of this banter is killing time waiting for people like your self that have taken the plunge. We are interested in your impressions of the HAH. Please keep us posted on your mileage and what you like or dislike about the HAH.. We don't hate the HAH there are a few of us that are skeptical but quite interested in the advancement of our vehicles, especially where it concerns saving fuel and our environment.

robertsmx

This is the first time I’ve heard of electric powered brakes in production cars. Could you elaborate on it?

 

Now, electric power steering (EPS) does make sense with auto-stop feature. But, it isn’t limited to hybrids! Honda introduced its EPS with 1997 NSX. Since then, Insight, S2000, Civic Si, Civic Hybrid and Accord Hybrid have used it in US market. Complex and high maintenance it is not! Electrical systems are more reliable and lower maintenance! Expect to see more of it in the future, in hybrids or non-hybrids.

 
 

You bring up “complex cars”. I suspect you meant cars in general because they are getting complex by the day as technology evolves. And especially for people who cannot keep up with times. I’ve seen the same being said about computers.

 

As for starter, you continue to shoot in the dark.

backy

The Prius runs primarily on electric power... The Prius turns on the gasoline engine ONLY when the battery runs very low and needs recharging, or when you need quick acceleration.

 

Based on statements like that and your earlier statements about the "starter" in the HAH, it is clear you don't know much about how gas/electric hybrids work. There are some discussions here at Edmunds.com about that subject, which would help you make informed points about the HAH vs. posting "bashings" not based in fact.

azhah

Thanks gagrice!

 

To date (800 miles) I have avegared 30.5 MPG via trip computer. My last tankfull indicated 30 even based on manual calculations. This was all city driving but did include some stop & go freeway during commute hours. Overall my main impression is that the car is very comfortable and the Hybrid factor is almost transparent. That is to say it doesn't seem wierd or different except for the odd feeling that my engine keeps stalling at stop lights! As for the electric brake question.. The brakes are not electric actually. They are pretty standard vacuum assist. I think there may be an electric vacuum pump to keep them charged during long engine off periods but the owners manual states that after a long period of time the engine may come back on to provide additional vacuum. I would be most happy to answer any specific questions about this car even if I have to do some specific checking. Being that I did take the "plunge" I would like to do my part to bolster the future of hybrid cars in general.

 

Thanks!

backy

Thanks for the report. As a point of reference, the best overall (mixed city/highway) fuel economy ever observed by Consumer Reports in their years of vehicle testing for an automatic-transmission gas-powered (non-hybrid) car was 30 mpg, and that was for a few compact cars. So your 30 mpg on a new car in all city driving, with some stop & go freeway driving, is quite impressive I think, given that the HAH is considerably larger and heavier and has much higher performance than those other cars (Mazda3i, Scion xA and xB).

gagrice

I would like to do my part to bolster the future of hybrid cars in general.

 

This is a good place to pass on your experiences with the HAH. For every owner that adds his review, it may encourage someone else to spend the little extra to push the hybrid technology forward.