Hybrid Honda Accord

1winglow

You are right on.

 

There are just too many unknown risks involved in the HAH. I would give it 3-5 years of shake down before I would take it seriously.

 

Remember the people who went on long waiting list to buy GM's Electric Vehicle? They now realize they did not buy cars, but very expensive conversation pieces.

 

GM would prefer nobody converse about who spent $2 billion and 5 years on a dinosaur.

Kirstie_H

Off-topic and personal posts have been removed.

 

kirstie_h

Roving Host

Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

Sylvia

-No profanity - m*sked or otherwise.

gagrice

Remember the GM Electric Vehicle?

 

They were all leased. GM bit the bullet. Many of the people that had them would have gladly bought them from GM. They are now in a field stacked on top of each other.

larsb

quote winglow-"There are just too many unknown risks involved in the HAH. I would give it 3-5 years of shake down before I would take it seriously."-end quote

 

That would be an overly cautious stance. Honda is not new to making Hybrids - they have many years of R&D under their belt and more than a 100,000 hybrids sold to date.

 

It's not their first rodeo.

 

If the Accord Hybrid meets your needs, buy it.

yerth10

GM's

EV-1 cost $ 30,000 : 50 mile range : 8 hours for charging

EV-2 cost $ 40,000 : 80 mile range : 8 hours for charging

 

HCH Cost $ 20,000 : 550 mile range : 5 minutes for re-fuelling.

 

No wonder, HCH has suceeded. The only similarily between a BEV and HEV is the battery and motor. Other than that HEV is a very practical vehicle.

 

GM puts its money in expensive impractical vehicles. Even now they are working on Fuel-Cells for which hydrogen is not widely

available.

yerth10

larsb

 

Has Honda sold 100,000 hybrid vehicles. If so that will be a milestone achieved.

 

Can you send me a link if available.

larsb

I guess Honda is a few cars short of 100K after all (oops):

 

"Honda, which offers Insight, Civic and Accord hybrids, sold 26,773 hybrids in the first 11 months of last year. Toyota has sold a cumulative 306,862 hybrids between 1997 and Nov. 2004 and Honda has sold a total of 81,867 hybrids between 1999 and November 2004."

 

Whole story here:

 

http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&- amp;sid=313

gagrice

GM puts its money in expensive impractical vehicles. Even now they are working on Fuel-Cells for which hydrogen is not widely available.

 

Actually I think a big chunk of that money was You and I. The EV and the fuel cell vehicles are heavily subsidized by the US Government. It came about when CARB mandated that a percentage of all cars in CA had to be Electric by a given date.

 

One thing you left out in your analysis of the EV-1. It cost the equivalent of 25 cents per gallon to operate. That is why they had to pry them away from many of those that leased them.

yerth10

Honda sold 1000+ HAH in Dec-2004 and probably 2500 HCH (taking average) and that take is above 85,000. Great for a small company.

 

I wish they hit 100,000 mark by Apr-22 (Earth Day).

yerth10

Yesterday I saw an Accord-Hybrid in Northern Virginia area and it has the word 'HYBRID' in a very small font in trunk area.

 

Is it because its motor power is much smaller compared to engine power. It would be better if they can use a bigger font atleast for the price paid.

azhah

There is a reason for this. The HAH is targeted for a slightly different group. it is designed to both be understated and luxurious. it comes standard with all upgrades and options. only the NAV system is an option. Additionally this is a "performance" vehicle with good mileage as opposed to a super-high mileage car with reasonable performance. It has more horse-power than a standard V6 Accord. I like the fact that one can just barely make out the fact that it's a hybrid as I blow past them from a light!

1winglow

So the HAH starts the car rolling with the E motor then uses the IMA to kick start the cylinders. That makes more sense than using the starter every time.

 

Please understand I am trying to find information as the sales people at my local Honda dealers are not very knowledgeable about their cars, left alone something new like the HAH! It's a waste of time and patience to talk to Honda sales people. This forum provides far better information.

 

How does the VCM disconnect the 3 cylinders? Are the cylinders disconnected entirely from the crank shaft?

 

Regarding having to apply more pressure to the brake when it's on electric, that can be confusing. I would rather have all drivers' inputs being uniformly linear.

 

I'd like take back the comment about Honda's stupid nonsense. Perhaps they are pretty clever. Thanks for sharing your experience with this forum.

kurtamaxxguy

Thanks to those who are posting information about how the HAH is working out for them!!

Though I won't be buying one tomorrow (no mo' first years for me!), the info definitely helps consider one in the future!

azhah

Thanks 1winglow for the much more constructive type of comment. I may have overstated the brakes somewhat. Truth is the more I drive it the less I notice. having said that I do remember it bothering me a fair amount at first. As to the VCM.. My understanding is this: When the Accord goes into ECO mode the front three cylinders shut down by removing power to the valve actuators. The rear three cylinders provide the power while the front are "free-wheeling." At the same time the active engine mount dampeners activate to reduce the vibrations one might feel when the enigine transitions from ECO to normal. Also when in ECO mode the stereo system acts as a noise cancelation system to mask out the "drone" that can be created by a three cylinder engine. There are microphones in the front and rear of the cabin as well as the engine compartment to handle this. I cannot hear or feel any difference between the two modes. I think the noise cancel works regardless of whether the radio is on or not.

rfruth

Nope the HAH doesn't start the car rolling with the electric (IMA) motor but you're getting closer, all the IMA can do is assist the gas motor (IMA = Integrated Motor Assist) if by rolling you mean starting the gas motor up, yea the IMA (not the 12 v starter) does that as far as VCM goes the 3 unused cylinders are still connected to the crank shaft but the spark plugs quit firing and the valves are left open - I don't have a hybrid but like you get tid bits here, from honda.com, howstuffworks.com etc. Agreed lots of sales critters know precious little ...

azhah

To be precise the IMA actually does start the car rolling but just for the first few instances. Since the IMA and the V6 are always physically connected the IMA cannot run unless the crank is turning over. In reality when you take your foot off the brake the IMA powers up starting you moving but at the same time is bringing the V6 up to enough speed for the cylinders to fire. my guess is less then half a second or even shorter.

azhah

The IMA is a large diameter electric motor with a brushless stator directly connected to the engine crank. Whenever the engine is running the stator is turning. When the IMA electrical circuit is open, the stator spins freely neither powering nor generating. When the circuit is closed and power is being supplied it provides tork to the driveline. When the circuit is closed and no power is applied it generates electricity to the batteries and creates load on the enigine.

 

One added benefit to this setup, I think, is that when you start the car it simply fires up rather than "cranking" the way a traditional starter does. It's very smooth and easy to not even notice it has started!

robertsmx

The other benefit of having IMA's electric motor the way it is in the three cars is that it can replaces a part of the engine's fly wheel (if not all of it). So, the added weight of motor is compensated for by a lighter flywheel.

1winglow

It looks logical that the IMA is acting as the flywheel to CRANK the V6 engine.

 

HAH still needs the conventional starter just in case there is no juice left in the drive battery.

 

When the VCM disengages 3 cylinders, I assume it also closes the valves or shuts off fuel into them for fuel saving. Without disengaging the 3 non-firing cylinders entirely from the crank shaft, the engine has to drag along a big unbalanced load. The engine must be shaking badly. Unbalanced load can tear the engine out of its mounts. Try disconecting 3 plug wires in a conventional V6. You will see how badly the car shakes.

 

What is the active engine mount? Hydraulic or electric powered? This looks like something that will need periodic replacement.

adp3

I applaud Honda for putting the

"enviro" technology in a "mainstream" behicle rather than the Prius or the Civic. Not to demean either the Civic or the Prius, but I thought it was a marketing mistake to simply market at the contrarians - the folks who are willing to drive a goofy vehicle - the true believers - rather than folks who want to drive bigger cars (not the Accord is a large vehicle).

 

I know the Honda and Toyota marketing guys are smarter than I, but....

azhah

There still is a flywheel in order for the conventional starter to have something to "teeth" into. The three non-active cylinders have the fuel injectors deactivated so there is no fuel consumption. The valves are set slightly open on the intake side to allow the pistons free movement without creating vacuum or compression. This does not affect the entire intake as it too is devided up in the throttlebody with another valve so as not to disrupt intake flow to the still active cylinders. The dampening system is electric but only needs to compensate for the transition between 3 & 6 (and back)cylinder use. The rest of the time it is well enough balanced to be unnoticed. Your example of the sprakplug scenario while correct in general can be avoided if it's a well balanced engine and you remove just the "right" plugs. That is to say if you remove three consecutive firing plugs it would run VERY rough whereas if you remove every other plug in the firing order you would still have a fairly smooth running engine. It's not quite that simple but that's the jist of it. The only real issue is the harmonics inherent in an engine with less than 4 cylinders. If the revs aren't high enough you get the dreaded "drone" effect. Thus the active noise canceling system. So far... It seems Honda has covered all the bases.

zitch

I had test drove a Honda Accord Hybrid while my car was getting it oil changed at the dealership. The electric steering felt a little different and I did notice a difference in the braking, but nothing big. Drove it a total of 10 miles (from 15 to 25 miles on the odometer)while spouting facts and numbers about the car to the hapless salesperson riding with me... . A nice ride overall. Never tested its full acceleration because it's a brand new car (it would be unfair to the future owner, IMO). Otherwise, pretty much drove like and had slightly softer suspension than my 2003 I4 Accord. Never really paid much attention to the interior features of the car, just the drive itself and the drivetrain features (auto-stop, etc.).

 

As for reliability of the system, although may be somewhat of an unknown, but electric engines are, in general, much more reliable than gasoline engines. Much less moving parts, less heat emitted, and can be sealed so that you'd never have to replace the lubrication system. Risks of electrical danger would likely be much the same as gasoline dangers in a crash, and those electrical risks were not ignored when the hybrids were designed. The problem with is the batteries. All chemical batteries will lose their maximum capacities over time and usage.

 

As I said before, if Honda comes out with an Inline 4 gas-electric hybrid Accord with a stickshift, well, I'll be saying bye-bye to my current Accord..

robertsmx

I’m sure Honda’s engineers know it better than you or I. They have to sell a reliable product after all, and continue to grow.

 

And VCM isn’t a hybrid thing. It is already offered in Odyssey and will be offered in 2006 Pilot. And Honda has offered it in Japanese market for almost two years now (in Honda Inspire which is basically American Accord with cosmetic changes and same V6 power plant albeit with more power and torque).

 

Active Engine Mount isn’t a new thing. It has been a part of luxury car segment for a long time. Its purpose is to isolate the engine to reduce NVH and it is a hydraulics based system.

 

Now as far as VCM is concerned, pistons in all six cylinders are active at all times. So, it is not that three cylinders completely stop working, just that there is no “firing” involved in three of the six cylinders. The intake and exhaust valves are shut down, with no fuel injection and that’s it! Everything else stays the same. The idea is to reduce pumping losses and fuel consumption, hence improving overall efficiency.

adp3

I'd like to see an AWD HAH wagon. That might give the Volvo XC70 a run for its money.

aspesisteve

it's amaizing how the techie nerds love to one up each other about how the thing works.

 

anyone care to comment on the price they paid

and if the gas milege and performance is everything they claim it to be?

 

also, any thoughts on the ultimate; make the HAH with AWD?

adp3

yeah, but without the techienerds the rest of us would be sittinbg here saying, "you put gas in once in a while, and you turn the key and press the pedal on the right"

azhah

Hmm. Rather inflammatory don't you think!?

 

I was under the immpression that there might be those who were interested in the "nuts and bolts."

 

Besides, were it not for "techie nerds" you wouldn't have the HAH at all now would you?

backy

I say bring on the technobabble! If we don't like it, we can exercise the Page Down key.

rfruth

Isn't AWD technobabble to some ? Signed a Texan

merlin180

>>> VCM isn’t a hybrid thing. It is already offered in Odyssey and will be offered in 2006 Pilot

 

Interesting...

 

I know it's a bit off topic, but is VCM on the 2006 Pilot for sure, or just a rumor - do you have a link for it?.

 

I saw an article where the CEO of Honda said they didn't plan to Hybrid-ize the Pilot within the next 3 years, but adding VCM would be a good improvement with few engineering changes needed.

patrick7

Hello Folks,

 

I have been reading this thread for a bit now, as I am seriously looking at buying an HAH 2005. Very seriously.

 

I have some questions that concerned me about the car, and I was hoping that someone could either answer, or point me to the answer, about parts here.

 

If I buy it, and eight years down the road I need replacement IMA batteries, where do I go, if Honda and/or the technology changes and those batteries are no longer made in the casting or dimensions that they use today? Where do I go to get that specially crafted alternator that they use in the car?

 

The answer is probably check with Honda, but if they are the only distributors of the parts, you can see the opportunity for price gouging here.

 

Is there a price list for these parts? Are there "generic" brands of HAH parts? You can see my concern here.

 

The other question I had, and I am not sure if it were in the forum, but is there a "manual override" or can the HAH gas engine operate independantly of the IMA? I.e. if the IMA batteries were completely dead, would the HAH act as a standard V6?

 

Thanks!

azhah

Welcome to the forum patrick7!

 

Though your concerns about parts and prices are valid I can't give you an answer to the first part of your question. I would say that this kind of thing has happened many times before on many different vehicles. Given the large number of any given car produced these days auto manufacturers are usually well prepared to support their products years after or they would soon be exposed as unsupportive. Having said that who knows what one might have to pay for a rare part down the road. The upside is the answer to your last question... Yes! the IMA system can fully run as a straight V6. That's part of the beauty of this design. If the IMA is nonfunctional or if the batteries are toast, It will operate as a regular V6 simply without the better mileage. Of course there may be some exceptions to this.

viet

Hi Patrick7,

 

If the IMA battery is dead the HAH can run only on the gas engine of 240HP. I am the HAH's owner and happy with its superb power and excellent acceleration. Who can make the IMA battery better than Honda. You love Honda and the IMA you should not worry too much about the battery's price. Also, I heard that not all "cells" in the (supposedly dead) battery need to be replaced. Just some of them. The HAH is the TOP Accord and better than the entry-level Acura and the "cheap" Lexus. I have owned almost 10 Honda and including Camry, Chevrolet, Pontiac and have test drove Mustang, Chrysler, Ford, "low-level" BMW, etc. The HAH's price is equal to price of the BMW 325i. But I did not buy that BMW. All I can tell is Honda is the best.

 

Below is the professional critics about the HAH:

 

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/jedlicka.aspx?make=Honda&mo- del=Accord%20Hybrid

viet

Hi Patrick7,

 

In software engineering and in other engineering expertises the fact that the HAH can run only on its gas engine of 240HP when the battery is (supposedly) dead is called "independent modular programming/ engineering". That is the smartest engineering invention from Honda Inc. Also, auto critics said the Prius gives them a feeling of driving on an electrical golf cart or "driving" on a household appliance. If you want a sport car, the HAH is for you.

 

The regular Accord V6 with 240HP is more than enough for me. Now comes the HAH with 255 real and accurate HP. It always wants to "fly" on the roads, regardless of bumpy ones or smooth straight highways. It just runs so quietly and beautifully. It can run straight about 650 miles without gas fill-up.

1winglow

The professional critics at Edmunds rated the $30K+ HAH at 8/10 while they rated the Camry that sells for $12K less at 9.5/10.

 

Here's the link:

 

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/job.aspx?modelid=11324&src=- vip

 

Thank you Edmunds. HEHEHEHEHE

backy

Aren't you confusing MSN with Edmunds.com? The Editors and readers of Edmunds.com have rated the Camry and HAH as follows:

 

2005 Camry XLE V6 (closest trim to HAH): Editors 7.7, Consumers 9.1

 

2005 HAH: Editors 8.1, Consumers 9.2

 

Thank you, Edmunds. HEHEHEHEHE

viet

There are two auto examiners at MSN Autos. The lady is very generous with her reviews and gradings. The man is very strict. He gave the Corvette 10/10.

 

My wife bought a 4 engines Camry LE 1990 even I told her not to buy it. After 45K miles, the Camry's engine got some cracks and I had to bring it back to Toyota dealership and they sealed the engine cracks with...silicone. They charged me $500. It was a big rip off. It did not work at all. One plug was always "wet" because oil always drained into that spark plug. My wife's Camry could not go up hills with full power. In fact, it was real weak like an elderly woman who was ready to visit TOBIA Funeral Services Inc. I sold that Camry at 95K miles.

 

I do not say Camry is a bad car. All auto makers, including Honda and Toyota, have constantly refined and improved their autos to please their customers and win the market shares.

robertsmx

Patrick7:

As many others have mentioned, you would have almost a normal Accord V6 if the batteries are completely out. So you won’t need to (unless you want to maintain the performance and fuel economy aspects). At that time, there may be generic suppliers of battery packs since hybrids are expected to be more common, and like everything else, they are going to get after market support for sure. HAH batteries are produced by Sanyo.

 

Merline180:

It is official:

VCM will be applied to the 2006 Honda Pilot sport-utility vehicle scheduled to debut this fall.

aspesisteve

it isn't inflamatory, my reference to techno nerd, as long as you're ok with it.

 

When I buy a watch, I don't need to know how the thing works on a molecular level, same thing with a car.

 

I don't object to all the propeller spinning here, it's just an observation.

1winglow

Hi Viet,

 

Sorry to hear about your wife's problem with the Camry. Her car apparently had a crack in the engine head which leaked coolant and oil into the cylinder. With no compression, the engine had very little power.

 

For that to happen, it could be a mfg defect or someone must have driven the car without coolant or oil, thus overheated and cracked the engine.

 

This problem should have been covered under 7years/70K miles power train warranty. You should have made the dealer replaced the head for free. Why did you let the dealer get away with it?

 

Camry with inline 4 cyl engine is well known as very reliable cars, more so than the V6 version. I've seen Camry used as taxi in poor countries, racking up 700K miles on original engine and auto transmission. Body shops in the US told me they regualrly see Camry I4 with 400K to 500K miles with original engine and transmission with no problem.

 

Regardless of brands of cars, owners have to operate their cars within limits, and keep up the regular maintenance. Never run your cars without coolant or you will burn the engine for sure and face very expensive anf iffy repairs!

robertsmx

I think it is good to be nerdy than clueless. What do you say?

azhah

It wasn't the term you used but the way you used it.

 

Your title:

"this thread has been hyjacked by propeller heads"

 

Your first line:

"it's amaizing how the techie nerds love to one up each other about how the thing works."

 

I was trying to answer questions that were being asked by other interested members. While I did correct a few misconceptions, I by no means was trying to one-up nor do I feel that anyone else was. If you aren't interested in how this hybrid works then why are you here at all. This is about the Accord Hybrid not the regular Accord. No one is explaining the basic operation of standard gasoline engine nor was I talking on a "molecular" level, though it might seem that way to some. I was actually trying to keep it generally simple so the majority of forum members could formulate their own opinions about a fairly new technology.

 

As to your questions about mileage and

performance..

 

As a new HAH owner I am very pleased with the combination of mileage and performance. The acceleration is a little shy (but not much)of my 2000 Z28(LS1)and I getting 30MPG all in-city with less than 1000 miles on the car.

 

Hope that wasn't too techie for you!

zitch

Yup. As I said in my other post, how the car works to the user is no different than any other car. Maybe a few different pretty lights on the instrument cluster, but it still drives like an Accord (except only a little faster...).

 

Then again, I'm one of those interested in the magic behind the scenes, how the vehicle works to translate between a steering wheel, a few pedals, and a shift stick to get the vehicle to do what the user wants it to. So this is one "techie nerd" that is very willing to be one upped "about how the thing works". I like learning new and different things..

Kirstie_H

Well, we have a discussion called How do Hybrids Work, and one called Advanced Course in Hybrid Engineering for those who want to get into the "magic behind the scenes" as zitch so cleverly put it.

 

Why not strike up a conversation in one of those topics? That would be a great way to satisfy most members, and leave this topic for specifically talking about the HAH, and sharing ownership experiences.

 

kirstie_h

Roving Host

Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

1winglow

Because there are not enough techies in America, the Japansese is taking home all our savings and inheritance.

 

Data from various sources:

 

MFR $ FY2004 REVENUE $ FY2004 NET PROFIT

 

GM 185.5 BIL 3.82 BIL

CHRYSLER 177.51 BIL 3.03 BIL

TOYOTA 167.90 BIL 11.28 BIL

HONDA 78.22 BIL 4.45 BIL

 

You can see Toyota and Honda are about 3x to 4x more profitable than US car MFR.

 

I would love to buy American cars ASA they are engineered with advanced designs, features and performance, reliability and durability.

gagrice

I was trying to answer questions that were being asked by other interested members.

 

Many of the people like that techie in depth stuff. If it is over my head I just read it faster and move on. Always something interesting on the forum to learn or debate. Hopefully there is room for everyone to participate.

Sylvia

And we do try and make room for everyone which is why we created the Advanced Course in Hybrid Engineering discussion.

 

Now - back to the HAH - features, impressions,,,

viet

Hi Robertmx:

 

You are right that the HAH's batteries are made by Sanyo just as the Nav. systems are made by IBM and Honda and the HAH's tires are made by Michelin, etc. I was planning to correct my mistake but you did it for me. Thanks.

 

The VCM is also integrated in the Chrysler 300. When the VCM changes mode from V6 to V3 on highway runs I felt nothing both with the HAH and the Chrysler 300. It is a very nice feature. I have noticed that the engine acceleration is quite impressive and the transmission works very smoothly.

 

Dan Jedlicka, the critics in MSN Auto indicates that the HAH's electrically assisted steering is vague and light. But to me, it is great. Ann Job, the other critics in MSN Autos did give the Honda Civic 9.5 over 10 with her generous reviews as usual.

 

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/job.aspx?make=Honda&model=C- ivic

 

Expert Rating 8.8 out of 10

Consumer Rating 9.0 out of 10

 

For the HAH, below is also the info. from MSN Autos:

 

Expert Rating 8.0 out of 10

Consumer Rating 9.0 out of 10

fxtool

It seems that the engineering talk has been specific to HAH, therefore should be allowed to stay in this discussion.