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Comments
People who make negative comments about the HAH should test drive one to get the "flying feeling". It runs like...ultra silk. Thanks Honda engineers.
I opted for the All weather mats for the front. I always thrash on my floormats, so I figured I'd try to ruin the all season rubber for a while.
Living in L.A., my commute went from 10 minutes to 45 with a new job. Consequently, my pickup wasn't cutting it in regards to comfort. I spent 6 months driving EVERYTHING; Lexus, Infiniti, Mini, BMW, Volvo etc. I wanted a level of luxury, a little muscle, and a place to leave my golf clubs and not have them stolen.
I always knew that the rational side of my brain wanted a Hybrid, the problem was that the combination of power, comfort, and a hybrid engine didn't really exist. Then I head about the HAH in June. For me it was a godsend, as it is truly a Hybrid, in all respects.
The point that some on this board miss is that you can almost have your cake and eat it too, with this car. If we were all able to boost mpg by 7-10mpg, and keep our tires inflated, maybe we could lessen our dependency on foreign oil while we wait for H. That's the beauty of it, If it's not for you, you don't have to buy it!
I've had it for 3 weeks now, and couldn't be happier. Okay I could if it had a moonroof, but other than that, it fits me to a tee, until we make another quantum leap in automotive fuels.
I've gotten used to the autostop, the 3 cylinder shutdown on the highway is barely noticeable, the noise is almost nonexistent, and best of all, I feel like I'm driving the future.
Just my two cents-
fxtool
I always refused to date automobile fetishists!
The HAH's torque is better on previous version V6 Accords. The "thinner" transmission is much smoother. It runs eerily quiet. It is real fast and very responsive.
All my friends have discarded luxury cars like BMW, Mercedes Benz... and have bought Honda/ Toyota. They have complained about bad MPGs, high maintenance costs on those so-called luxury cars.
Viet, you are so right about the HAH. Have your cake and eat it to. That says it all aboout the car. It provides every option. You want fast, you got it. You want MPH, you got it. You want comfort, you got it. You want reliability you got it.
By the way, the wife drove it last week. 80% in town and got 29.7 my calc and 29.6 on the dash.
I'm taking it to phoenix next week and I'm anxious to see what the MPH will be on a long trip.
You are so right. Only HAH's experienced, non-bias and objective drivers/ owners can say much about the HAH. I feel it runs better and better day by day when it is approaching the break-in mileage.
The saying "Girls drool to the luxury cars" may apply to single yong guys/ gals who do not have to be much concerned about the hard-making money and their Big Mamas do not need them home every night. To me, the Big Mommy and my young boys expect me returning home every single night so there is no time and money for me to waste to impress girls with those so-called luxury, expensive cars.
I had to make many decisions to select between new cars and I always tried to be very logical and rational in my buying decisions. Absolutely I cannot afford to make a single mistake when putting down some 36 plus grand, or more if needed, to buy a lemon.
Before I bought my Accord Sedan 1995 EX I4 145HP I test drove the Acura Integra (same level, same price) and I preferred the Accord because the Accord ran much smoother, chassis was more solid, longer and more stable. It might be a bit slower to the Integra but I did not care the badge name very much. It turned out my 10 year old buddy Accord still runs solidly and gave me lot of pleasure and great MPG. When I bought the Accord Sedan 2002 EX V6 I test drove the Camry V6 XLE and chose the Accord again. When I bought the Accord 2003 EX V6 Coupe for my son I still preferred the Sedan but the young boy preferred the Coupe. Before I bought the HAH I had looked into the Lexus G300, E300, RX400, M. Benz C class, BMW 325i, Audi, Avalon, All Acura models. And the HAH was on the top of my list. When I put down big bucks to buy cars I always do extensive research, critical financial and technical comparision and analysis. I do not know very deep into auto technical stuff, but I have learned it from these boards and other websites. Edmunds. com is really a great place to learn about cars.
I have been very immpressed with the HAH's new specifications. Some features were imported from expensive Honda NSX ($90K price tag) and S2000 ($35K). The more I drive my HAH the more I like it. I agreed with you its MPG will improve after the break-in. Now, I average 29 -30 MPG in cities. I have not got many chances to drive long highway trips because I have several other Accords to drive. My other V6 Accords are marvelous. Their HP and MPG are so lovely and enjoyable on fast highway trips. My friend said his S2000 can run fast on any transmission gear. I have never been interested in the S2000 because it does not have seats for more than 2 people. Honda may be considrered by some people as "boring, cheap looking Honda", not Lexus, Acura, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Audi, etc. But I dont care. I am much interested in those Honda's technical features, comfort, MPG, HP, pricing, durability, reliability, historical track records, etc. My 10 year old Accord I4 still runs with full force on all original parts except the battery and some minor body work and repaint after some minor accidents caused by the Big Mama. When I tuned up the engine all 4 spark plugs were so clean. After the tune, the engine ran smoothly and quiet like new. Honda Inc. is now number two car maker in Japan only after Toyota. Number two and strong in the car making market financially and technically.
The crash test result that 1Winglow mentioned is obviously something I looked into as my first criteria too. The Lexus G300 just got a 4 stars rating on frontal crash test from the Federal Crash Test Agency. In recent years, all Accords have been given 5 stars on frontal and side crash tests. Now, I feel very much safer with the HAH's 8 airbags. If accidents happen all people inside the HAH will be protected by 8 airbags from heads to toes.
I have paid much pity and admiration to Honda's engineers. They have to work so hard to make buyers happier and happier. They have to be much innovative to make Honda Inc. to be competitive with other car makers. We put a little bit more money and have all those goodie engineering stuff in our newer Honda models. I fall in love with the HAH's navi. system among many other "interesting and useful toys" in it. The audio system is a real mentally soothing toy after being nagged by the Big Mama.
me: How's that? You think that a person who has considered all the vehicles of less money theen a HAH, and then decided on the HAH as "the best" are unbiased? Everyone who buys a vehicle has a bias towards the vehicle they buy, and they will tell you they made "the best" choice for the money.
you: Absolutely I cannot afford to make a single mistake when putting down some 36 plus grand, or more if needed, to buy a lemon.
me: there are very good cars out there for $20K, and there is such a thing as warranties. If my car breaks, they come and tow it and give me a rental until it's fixed. $0 cost to me.
The other thing you must realize that although Accords typically depreciate slowly initially, at some point that must pickup.
When any vehicle is scrapped it is worth $0. Now someone who bought a 4-cyl Accord is going to have lost $16K less in depreciation, then someone who scraps a $36K (your number) HAH, given they should last the same number of miles.
A 4-cyl Accord can take you to the same places the HAH can, and can drive the speed limit on any public road. Why do you need extra hp? $16K to knock 2 sec. off of the 0-60mph time?
Your friends are very unique. I have never met anyone with a MB or BMW who bought their vehicle because of MPG! I have never met anyone who gave up their BMW for a Honda/Toyota(though statistically I am sure there are a few who do--I really dont envy them!)
___Except you have given up luxuries for $9 - $10K more vs. the EX-L w/ or w/out NAVI. You certainly aren’t making it up in FE as even your own numbers have shown so far and if you are pushing the Go pedal for that extra 2 - 2.5 seconds to 60, you are not receiving anywhere near the non-Hybrid Accord I4 :-(
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
They also complained about high maintenance costs and reliability records. Entry level Mercedes Benz are not quite reliable after 100K miles. BMW and M. Benz are all good cars but lot of high costs involved. In the long run I do think Lexus and Acura will get their names recognized.
After going down and just sitting in the HAH, I cannot imagine someone giving up a luxury car for the Honda. It has very little headroom and feels small. I do not believe the numbers they have given for size. There is NO way it is as roomy as our LS400. Winglow is right about the Insurance rating on the Accord. The problem with the NHTSA tests is they use vehicles of the same size and weight for the crashes. It is not a bad criteria, just not as good as actual crash records that the Insurance Institute keeps. There they show the Accord as slightly below average. It is 16th out of 24 midsize sedans. If safety was your number one criteria the Audi, Passat and Camry are safer. Accord only beat two luxury midsize a low end Lexus and a "C" class MB.
As far as people trading in one brand for another, that is common. In fact the people that stay with just one brand are rare. I have bought new Toyotas, Honda, Nissans, Subarus, Chevys, Fords, VW & others I cannot recall. I usually switch because of something I did not like. Only the last four vehicles were Chevy trucks. They are reliable for the long haul. That was just my experience everyone is different. In fact I think many changed from the Accord, they lost market share in 2004.
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_4dr.htm
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_lux.htm
me: Of course not, but for $23K I bought a Jaguar 5-sp, V-6 w/AWD and free maint. for 4 years. It's not the fanciest Jag out there, but certainly nicer than an Accord. Why are you paying $30K+, and you don't even get AWD? That pays for gas for 100K miles! Are you sure the HAH is a good deal?
I'd think that with a gas engine you could power one axle, and with the electric motors you could power the other wheels to have a relatively simple AWD system. But the HAH electric motors aren't powerful enough to do this?
Below is the comparision between the HAH and the cheapest Jaguar. I could not find a cheap Jaguar at $23K. Please correct me if I am wrong but I heard Jaguar has been struggling in the world auto market.
http://autos.msn.com/research/compare/default.aspx?&c=0&n- =3&i=0&tb=0&ph1=t0&ph2=t0&dt=1&v=t100275&- amp;v=t100546
Can we assume then that you've driven the HAH, since you are certain the X-type (i.e. the Ford Mondeo with a Jaguar body) is nicer? What were your impressions of it? I could get an AWD Legacy for much less than $23k, and it would be far more reliable and roomy than the X-type. Does that mean the X-type is not a good deal? Depends on what you want in a car I guess.
The RX400h will power the rear wheels by electric motor. But this is the HAH discussion, so...
Which reminds me to suggest that someone who wants to compare the HAH to other vehicles start up a discussion for that in the Comparisons board. There is, for example, a "Toyota Prius vs. ????" discussion there--maybe a similar discussion could be started for the HAH, so this one could serve its intended purpose to discuss the HAH, not alternatives to the HAH.
I just love all this Honda bashing!
Most people who bought their HAH have justified their purchase by comparisons. Read the forum and look at almost every purchaser who compares their HAH with other cars(some with biased views--that is only natural).
So Backy what forum rules are you suggesting?
No HAH owner can explain why they purchased their HAH versus another vehicle!
No HAH owner can compare their driving experiences with other vehicles!
No HAH owner can explain why they may consider another hybird or plain old fashioned gas engine!
Non-HAH owners cannot respond to biased views of HAH owners, especially when they make unfair HAH comparisons with other vehicles!
What would be the point of this forum--when you can just get the hard statistics from elsewhere. Forums are about opinions and let us keep that way without you acting like a Sheriff in charge!
I believe that is the role of Sylvia, not your role!
For you, may be. For the market as it is now, no. The Jag is dead. Let us get back to HAH now.
What else can be said about the HAH? We are patiently waiting for HAH owners to join the forum and give us their impressions. I think comparison is important for those trying to decide on a new car purchase. When you are getting ready to drop $36k as viet paid on a car it would be nice to know you got the most for your money.
Is this just a place to tell me I made a mistake purchasing my car? If so, I guess it's time to move on.
Not YOU, but THEY. That said, if there is nothing left to discuss about HAH, we shouldn't see this thread grow.
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/jedlicka.aspx?make=Lexus&mo- del=IS%20300
http://autos.msn.com/research/userreviews/reviewlist.aspx?modelid- =11459&src=vip
viet, "Lexus IS 300" #2891, 17 Jan 2005 12:23 pm
Welcome to the forum. We are just killing time waiting for you to give us your impression of your new HAH. What kind of mileage are you getting? Does it do all you had hoped for. Are you enjoying the NAV as much as viet is? Personally I think the NAV is cool. I would want it in the Odyssey EX-L.
Precisely right! It is none of our business why you chose the vehicle over other vehicles. And it is none of our business to tell you that you cannot reveal why you bought the HAH.
This is forum not a curfew in terms of not being allowed to express certain views both positive and negative about HAH.
No, it's supposed to be a place for people who are interested in the HAH to find out more about it, from owners and other sources. Go to any other Sedans discussion, e.g. Mazda3, and you won't find people beating up on owners of their cars for making the decision they did. You will find owners discussing the pros and cons of their cars, and others who have interest in the car (future purchase perhaps) contributing with questions and comments. But NOT comments like, "why would anyone want to by Car X? Car A is much better/cheaper/greener etc." That is what the Sedan Comparison discussions are for. For example, there is already a discussion for the HAH vs. Camry Hybrid (not too active now because it will be awhile before the CH is a reality). But you get the idea.
What does that mean?
Talking about YOUR experiences with the HAH, asking questions about it, discussing features of the vehicle.
So - let's get back on topic. If you simply want to bash this car (and don't own it), please find another venue so that those who wish to seriously ask questions about the car or share their experiences can do so.
Thanks!
To me, car purchase decision is always a big issue between cash put out and the real value of the car compared to other competitive cars on market. Keeping an open mind when buying a new/ used car is a must.
me: No not an HAH. But, I car-pool with a guy who has an '03 Accord 4-cyl, and unless the HAH has a totally different interior materials - plastics, rugs, etc. it is not nearly as nice. And the X-Type rides much smoother over the same road. And since the Accord is not a performance car, I don't see where the rougher ride is an advantage.
you: I could get an AWD Legacy for much less than $23k, and it would be far more reliable and roomy than the X-type. Does that mean the X-type is not a good deal? Depends on what you want in a car I guess.
me: go ahead and price what a Legacy is with leather, a 6-cylinder, and 4-yr. maintenance contract thrown in. It's more; that was 1 of the few vehicles I compared.
Look I'm not trying to start a big vehicle comparision debate here; the HAH is probably a decent auto. It's just not anything revolutionary enough to get excited about at the $30K+ range. If it was $25K or less (street price), I'd say it might be the best at that point, if you're looking for an economical, but sporty family car. That's my OT comments about why I feel the HAH is not worth the MSRP, or more, which would naturally have to be placed in the context of a comparision.
I strongly have supported Honda Inc. as it always has taken its leadership role in advanced automotive technology. The small Insight is a technological success, the HCH has been sold well and warmly welcomed by the consumers. Now the HAH is a big (hard-to-resist) temptation to Honda fans. The IMA (Integrated Machine Assistance) is now in its third generation. When Honda staff called me for survey after my purchase he referred the HAH as the Honda IMA.
I am not surprised when you reported your MPG is well beyond the EPA's figures.
FWIW I don't think the HCH is worth its MSRP or more either, not when Accord EX-V6s can be had for under $25k. But that's my personal value judgment. I know there is a premium to pay for owning the latest technology; I'm just not willing to pay for it. After a few months, maybe a year, once the "buzz" has worn off, I think we'll see the HAH selling for more realistic prices (there's a $3000 markup on it)--just like the HCH and to some extent the Prius, although Prius prices are still close to or above MSRP in many areas.
On another note, I stopped into my two closest Honda dealers today since I took off work (kids were off for MLK Day) to see if they had a HAH to test drive. They did not; one said come back in 6 months (I couldn't believe the contempt from the two salespeople I talked to; just like the "good old days" in Honda dealerships!), the other was very polite and said he thought he'd have a couple of HAHs in stock by the end of the month to drive and offered to call me; everything before that was pre-sold. At the first dealership (the one with zero people in it, five sales reps standing around), the two reps I talked to didn't seem to know much about the car. One suggested I drive the V6 Accord because it was "just like the HAH." I mentioned a few things that were NOT the same as the V6 and added with a smile, "That's why the HAH costs more than the V6, right?" They didn't reply. You'd think while they were sitting around with no customers to talk to, they could be boning up on the cars they sell. ;-)
IMA:
The logic system in this car seems very good. The choices made by the system as to when to use 3 cylinders vs 6 and/or when to use motor assist or not have really impressed me. A look under the hood will immediately tell you the care that went into this design. It is beautiful. From the incredibly smooth startup to the muscle-car like acceleration this is one for the record books.
The electrically assisted steering and brakes appear flawless to me. I had heard some reports that the feedback from steering was not so great but I honestly can’t tell the difference from a standard modern power steering unit. The fact that I still have full power on brakes and steering even when the engine is in auto-stop is fantastic. The later being something I honestly had not considered prior to buying this car.
NAV:
I have had several Garmin GPS/NAV units and am pleased to find that the software in Honda’s Navigation system seems to be very similar. For me that greatly reduced the learning curve. So far I have found it to be the best NAV system of the six different units I have owned to date. The voice control, though, has blown me away! Not only did it not require any training but it has functioned better than I would have ever believed. I was so pleased when I found that it controlled more than the NAV system. Some of the highlights.. Audio functions like “radio 95.5 FM” or “rear defrost off’ or “eject passenger” are great hands free aids in driving. Just kidding about the last one in case you hadn’t figured that out!
GENERAL:
Ride & handling are great. Seats are VERY comfortable. The back seat leg room surprised me greatly. Aren’t Accords supposed to be small? .. No!
DIS-LIKES:
Brakes:
To be fair I have to point out the things I don’t like. Mind you none of these are “deal-breakers” but warrant a mention. The brakes will take some getting used to. While the brakes are smooth and have plenty of power there is an interesting effect when the auto-stop engages below 5MPH. If your brain has calculated your stopping distance based on foot pressure on brake and your perceived closing speed you may be in for a shock. In my estimation you loose about 15-20% of the braking horsepower when the engine cycles off requiring a slight increase in brake pedal pressure to maintain braking rate. I have gotten used to this quickly but it tops my list of negatives.
Engine transition:
I’m sure over time this will improve on hybrids and it is by no means “bad” now. It is however fairly noticeable from time to time. When you let off the brake and the IMA engages, when transitioning from 3 to 6 cylinders and in a couple of other instances you do feel some roughness. Sometimes you feel nothing other times it’s a little more than I’d wish for. Again, not a “deal-breaker,” just an eccentricity of the car to get used to.
Wheels:
Yeah, I know their high-tech, aerodynamic & lightweight but the center DOES look like a Chrysler emblem. The lack of spare bothers me somewhat, but the truth is I have never had a blowout or flat in my life. I guess as long as I keep up with the tire wear, inflation and with a little luck it may never be an issue. Keep tow-truck numbers handy! That’s all.
me: that always stinks. I would suggest 2 things when anyone is faced with this. 1) Fight the urge to buy the vehicle. If everyone did this as a matter of principle, the price would have to drop to MSRP, and 2) write the manufacturer, report the dealer and suggest you won't do business with a company that has such dealers. Maybe the manufacturer would institute a policy of stop-ship of this model to that dealer.
By the way that Subaru Legacy (Limited sedan)you mentioned was MSRP for $26.2K similarly equipped, except its a 4-cyl, and not a 6-cyl as I have. And I think 1 yr less warranty and no maint. included. :-)
BTW, I never mentioned a Legacy Limited sedan--I talked about a Legacy sedan. And since you weren't talking about MSRP, neither was I.
Did any HAH owners ever stick their fingers into a wall AC outlet? This high-energy, high-voltage DC source can kill a person instantly if one touches the wrong places in the car.
There was a research project at Cornell a few years ago where professors were trying to develop techniques for very high-strength, aerospace-grade welding of steel and aluminum with less than 10% of that DC energy.
Can you imagine your hands permanently welded onto the body of your beloved HAH? It may be wise to put locks on the aluminum hood and the trunk to make sure noone will touch the wrong places!
As the inverter converts DC current into AC to run the E motor, it must radiate a lot of energy as the motor runs. How are the occupants protected from radiation as they sit right next to this source for hours?
In case of an accident where the car is damaged, how are occupants protected from the live wires routing the 500V from the battery in the back to the E motor in the front?
It would be interesting to find out how Honda designed in HV protections and worked around complex safety requirements to sell the HAH in the US.
The safeguards you ask about are old hat, and have been incorporated into gas/electric hybrids (not just Hondas) for many years. I am more worried about an airbag going off accidently in my face (or side of my head), or NOT going off in an accident, than I am about being electrocuted by a hybrid car.
___As Backy said, this has been hashed out years ago and with it, the pack will isolate in most any incident involving pack or bus damage. Even the EMF has been discussed in various Hybrid forums and it is nothing to worry over as it does pass every test or standard that is required in today’s consumer and automotive products.
___If you want to see someone electrocuted, grab a wrench from your tool box and short out the positive and negative terminals of the 12 V in your non-Hybrid.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Maybe, 1winglow, if you're really interested in impressing women, you should worry a little less about your car and a little more about your attitude!
It's aboslutely fantastic being bashed by a car buff of the female species! However, you forgot to mention how you became qualified to speak for women everywhere!
I never claimed that women drool over elitists. Most women I know tend to think Accord and Camry are good economy cars, but nothing to get excited about. They could care less how many E motors or cylinders were added under the hood! They tend to care more about the overall quality, reliabilty and value of the end products. Given the means, they would much rather buy cars with higher quality and reliability, better ride comforts, better safety features and records, better handling and finer fit and finish, like Acura, Lexus, Infinity, MB, BMW...
Instead of being an elitist I actually do a lot of maintenance on my own cars, therefore I have lots of hands-on experiences on what constitute nice, safe, reliable and fun cars. I am not easily impressed by gimmicks which I found Honda always sells a lot to those unsuspecting!
I would much rather change a tire because repairing a flat is hard and dangerous work, and there are many potential damages on tires that are unrepairable ! I definitely do not want to be stuck with a damaged tire on long trips without a full-size spare, especially in very hot or very cold climates. That really reduces the range and utility of the car.
As you already guessed, I do not think the HAH is a good deal. Paying a $10K premium to gain 100 Ft-Lbs of torgue at the low end, while adding a lot of complexity to the engine, drivetrain and electronics is a very dumb idea, even if you enjoy drag racing. Additionally, Accord has been known for having poor brakes and questionable reliabilty with its auto transmission and electronics.
As the HAH ages, it will have lower reliability and higher maintenance problems, compared to the basic Accord V6, with all that added complexity. I would definitely not wish to add safety and reliability risks to my cars for a small gain such as an increase in low end torgue! But again I respect others' preferences.
Anyway it is very nice to hear from the female perspectives about cars. After all they own and drive about half of the cars on the roads.
I apologize if my posts offended you. They were meant to be more fun than critical. Welcome to the board.
Would you also say that it's a mistake for people to buy $50,000 Mercedes, loaded with complex systems that could fail, and with much worse predicted reliability than the HAH?