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LEV rating by itself holds no meaning in comparison. Echo may be LEV, and so may be LS400, but overall emissions would be very different.
___You didn’t mention which vehicle’s overall emissions would be cleaner? Both have a range. I don’t know myself other then they are both rated similarly.
For the same reason, an SULEV Accord I-4 isn’t likely to pollute as much as an SULEV Accord V6.
___There is no SULEV rated Accord V6 AH or otherwise. The non-hybrid Accord PZEV however is rated cleaner then the Prius II and especially the AH across the entire country vs. just the 5 Green States in which the Prius II is just a match and the AH isn’t even close according to the EPA.
In case of hybrids, let us not forget another factor. During idle stop, the emission rating would be like a ZEV. Not so with non-hybrid vehicles as they continue to burn gas and emit the produce.
___You have seemingly forgot to mention any NOx spike on initial start after autostop.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
But it is futile to contine this thread, because it's not about the HAH and I don't see gagrice trading his V8 luxury car or jumbo SUV for a small economy car, although he chastises HAH buyers for buying a near-luxury hybrid car rather than buying a tiny Insight, a compact Civic, or a midsized Prius.
I'm not sure where your logic was derived on the selling the Lexus and buying an Echo. First the Lexus is ULEV the Echo LEV. Both are under 3750 lbs so are tested at the same level EPA rating (see link).
Secondly to sell a 1990 Lexus with 84k miles, that still gets as good a mileage (27 mpg) as the owners of the HAH are getting would be foolish. The Echo is a poor example as I would not allow that car on the highway. UNSAFE at any speed. Where is Ralph Nader when he is needed? I have looked at many smaller cars including the Prius. None fits our needs at present. We buy cars for the long haul unlike people that waste our resources with driving more than is necessary. Then getting rid of a car with under 150k miles or 20 years whichever comes first.
Lastly I have never said there was anything wrong with buying an HAH if that is what you want. Just don't act like you are saving the planet with a super "green" car, because It Ain't that green & it ain't that clean & a combined 32 mpg is not great mileage.
http://www.cars.com/carsapp/national/?srv=parser&act=display&- amp;tf=/features/mvp/vpedia/vehicle_emissions_popup.tmpl
No, there is no “SULEV” rated Accord V6, however, SULEV doesn’t necessarily guarantee cleaner emissions than ULEV rated vehicle (which Accord V6 is available as). The difference between different ratings is not simple cut and dry. One takes over the other, depending on what you’re concerned about. An SULEV could do better in CO emissions, but worse in particulate matter and smog forming pollutants compared to LEVII or ULEVII or Bin 5. In fact, to qualify as an SULEV, smog forming pollutant emission limit is 11.7 lb per 15K/miles compared to just 5.3 lb for Bin5.
You have seemingly forgot to mention any NOx spike on initial start after autostop.
Let us use numbers, not assumptions.
What about Lupo, a car that you have used often in your arguments? That said, being an Accord Hybrid thread, I don’t think this would be an issue anyway.
It Ain't that green & it ain't that clean & a combined 32 mpg is not great mileage.
I assume that is your opinion, correct? Personally, I would love to have my car deliver 32 mpg while being capable one of the quickest family sedans around. And this is before we got into the largely misunderstood realm of emissions.
Now that members are purchasing this vehicle, let's focus on the features and ownership experience.
kirstie_h
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While I agree with some of your reasonings, such as excessive turn over of vehicles and a definte appreciation for whatever measure we can enact to spare fossil fuels (our energy source for still many generation that have to come by to inhabit our planet), you seem to come across as a big utopian.
Nothing worng with that, I like to think I still hang on some utopian aspects myself, but your bashing on the HA perhaps reveals more of your shortsightnedness that utopic vision.
Well of course I could stress how it is very unlikely that your complaints will change a business model (that of the automotive industry) and the offerings will more likely continue to reflect what marketing research will suggest rather than avant guard thinkers.
I will focus instead on the merit of your crusade as I can appreciate/understand it.
You seem to be getting incensed because the AH is being marketed as 'the non plus ultra' of greenery in the automotive world. You are right is not the most parsimonius in the gas sipping departments, but the reality is that a very small number of people is ready for small cars that promise even better mileage per gallon and the hybrid Accord at least accomplishes two very strategic and important goals.
-One, avails a distinctive vehicles that is either #1 or #2 in sales (passenger vehicles) each year and does things better than the traditional cars it replaces.
-two, offers an evolutionary path to future implementation of even more advanced technologies in the real of fuel efficiency and emission reduction.
I always shopped with MPG and emission characteristics in mind (Accord I-4 and C-RV, both 2003 models) but for safety reason I am not inclined to drive anything that will put me inside a sardine box waiting to be flattened when a Suburban or other larger vehicles plunges in.
So while you await for the 98% of people that does not presently shares in your utopian view of why we should suddenly get into sardine boxes, try to relax and enjoy that at least in a few years the most popular sedan sold in the country will average almost twice the national MPG (hence will combust/produce about half of pollutants) and the company innovating and promoting this evolution may even toss a better product your way (most certainly will if the HA is a commercial success!
Truly,
Steve
P.S. About vehicle turn over my guideline is dictated by inprovement in safety technologies. They seem to have quantum leaps about every 5 years and that is more or less my rate of car turnover! As they say better safe than sorry!
___Your Accord Hybrid is still missing from the Real Hybrid Mileage Database So far, there is one AH driver that should hit hypermiler status within the week but other then that, the AH is not being well represented as the average FE below shows :-(
___Let me know if any of you cannot see the graphic The Ford Escape HEV owners are actually achieving higher FE to date but the AH’s median is based off just 3 brand new AH’s, very few miles on each, and only 10 tanks in total as of this post.
___A bit OT but the Prius I, HCH (5-speeds and CVT’s), and Insight’s (5-speed’s and CVT’s) median’s are just about equal to their EPA combined estimates.
___Steve, do you own the PZEV based 2003 I4 Accord?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
You are right. I returned my dealership's call this morning at her request and she confirmed the HAH's doors will only auto lock by themselves if one uses remote opener to open doors and does not physically open it in 30 seconds (eg. forgetting something inside the house and coming back to the house to get it and getting back to the car).
I got the real joy to hop back and forth between my Accords (oldie I4, 2 V6s and Hybrid). The V6 2002 did "jump up like a big greyhound and fly" on the road to the supermarket an hour ago. Just like it always has wanted to take me to...Nirvana or Paradise on Earth.
I have registered all of my 5 Accords with Honda Inc. using the Owner Link including the 92 Accord LX I gave to my Dad. That LX was build in Japan. After a major tune up at 220K miles its engine ran like day NUMBER ONE. Amazingly ! The shiny Accord Hybrid has been sitting quietly and "innocently" in the garage under the car cover. Tomorrow I will have to drive it to work because my wife is going to drive that 200K miles I4 to her work. I drove that oldie to work today and still fall in love with it as I did in day...NUMBER 2.
I hope people will not ask me to sing the song "One track man" again and again. But Honda does deserve my great credit. And besides, I work in engineering-related field and I am open-minded.
basically, i'm backing up gagrace because he does his homework when he posts something.
another edit: wrg provides some great info on driving style that can get you better mileage. i'm getting 2 more mpg in my pzev focus than i was 2 tanks ago thanks to his advice. i am not a disciple of all his techniques.
I'm actually a lot more relaxed than my posts may seem. the truth is that there is an Accord that doubles the national MPG average available today. Just not in the good old USA. I started out liking the hybrid concept with the first Prius I drove in 2000. The more I discover about them the less I like. I do research with a very open mind. I am of the opinion you get your better mileage from straight diesel cars than a complex hybrid. They have proven that they can clean up the emissions. This can be done without giving up all you have gained in mileage. If someone is forced to put a lot of miles on a car every year, they can do themselves and the rest of us a favor by driving a high mileage car. No car on the market in the USA is dirty by standards set 10 years ago. That includes all the diesel cars. For an example the VW Beetle TDI does not pollute anymore than a Toyota Echo, both have a 6 EPA pollution score. The Beetle gets much better mileage & is safer. Yet one can be sold in CA and the other cannot. Or if I want to I can go buy a 1 ton behemoth PU truck with a 500 HP diesel engine and commute to work with it. I want to see that kind of ignorance and disparity ended. If that is Utopian, I guess I am guilty.
"Your Accord Hybrid is still missing from the Real Hybrid Mileage Database".
Your chart is fascinating. I have not driven my HAH very much so for now I cannot say anything firm about its MPG. If it delivers 29 - 38 MPG as promised I am pretty much OK with it. I did notice during my 32-mile trip on highway at 65 miles/ hour the digital MPG reading was 36.5. In the mixed driving I got about 30 MPG. All were digital readings. I will do the manual MPG calculations soon as I usually do it on all my other Accords after I finish one tank of fuel.
Also, the HAH's running engine is extremely quiet. I could not hear the engine after starting it up. It runs on the highway very quietly. I can hear the NAVI. voice and music really nice and very clear. I have been impressed with the HAH's solid quality whenever I sit on the driver seat. Everything makes me smile. It was created with care and sophistication. The small spoiler on the trunk lid looks very tasteful. The antenna on the back is very nice looking. The transmission is much more advanced and much smoother than those in my other V6 and I4. Transmission handle is smaller, fitting in my hand nicely. Audio and NAVI. are integrated in one unit. Knobs are smaller. They look much nicer than big knobs in my son's V6 2003 or previous model.
I have to create some good occastions to drive long trips to visit my uncle's family to test my "255-horse driving machine" after the engine breaks in. I watched a Chinese martial art movie yesterday ("House of Flying...") and admired the real running power of those battle horses. To Honda, 255 HP is an impressively powerful 255 HP, may be a little bit more, not less, as somebody put it "Honda does not know how to create cars that run slow".
However, the vehicle-specific discussions exist to provide owners a place to share driving experience, and for prospective buyers to get information that is specific to that vehicle. The information doesn't have to be positive - we welcome negative opinions as well.
We're not going to turn this discussion into a debate about whether one should or should not purchase a hybrid, or a gas mileage comparisons discussion. This isn't the place. Hit the hybrids board, or stop by News & Views where the topics aren't necessarily vehicle-specific.
Further off-topic posts will be deleted.
Thanks,
kirstie_h
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Host, Smart Shopper & Future Vehicles discussions
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kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Smart Shopper & Future Vehicles discussions
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Once again, we must not forget that distribution of diesel fules is still rather limited in the US, So it is unlikely the we could ramp up usage of fuel savvy engines and hence the hybrid approach remains perhaps the viable bridge to finally reach those higher efficiency targets.
Once again I side with your general phylosophy on the subject save for those areas I already pointed out. Mostly, the fact that your vehicle will share the road with a circulating pool of trucks, SUV etc and you need to mantain a safe margin on your abillity to survive an accident involving such heavier cars (as you know that depends quite from thesimilarity or disparity in the weight of the vehicles involved).
I think I will like to see the diesel powered Accord show up Stateside but I also believe that the AH will remain a more practical solution for a large number of people that do not easy access to diesel pumps.
Truly,
Steve
P.S. Thanks for the note about spell checking, when it will happen my wife will be the first to celebrate! Just bear with a terrible typist if you can (and one that does not read back his writing at that)!
I believe that was someone else's suggestion on the spell checker. I always use it to correct my glaring errors.
My negativity toward the HAH was based on disappointment rather than disdain for the genre. One of these days I will need to replace our 1990 Lexus and the Accord is not a bad sized vehicle. I could still buy the 4 cylinder and get OK mileage just not what I had hoped for in the 40+ mpg range. Fortunately the LS400 has at least 5 more good years before it will need to be replaced. Maybe decent mileage in a decent car will be available by then.
Car 1: 2967 miles / 32.6 mpg
Car 2: 249 miles / 24.1 mpg
Car 3: 260 miles/ 19.0 mpg
Overall average (distance traveled weighted): 30.8 mpg. That’s not bad at all, and way better than the “divide by three” logic to arrive at 24 mpg from a very small sample.
I agree that one tank is not enough to build a realistic average on. What struck me as interesting was the distance of each driver. The car that got the best mileage was driven the most in his commute. My question would be is that highway 38 min. or city or a combination? If it is a combination then he is getting very close to the EPA estimate. If it is highway driving it is low and all city then it is real good mileage. I guess we have to wait for further results to make any real judgment.
i look forward to many posts by hah owners as the car becomes more available. i wonder if it will be popular, or a niche vehicle.
I just finished 214 miles of mixed driving/ mostly city. The MPG is 30.2 and it stays constant on the panel. I guess this is the "real time" calculated MPG (up-to-date/up to the last mile driven).
I love Honda engineers' numbering games with digital clock time, XM, AM, FM Radio channels, MPG...on the dashboard. Honda's engineers make my life much more fun and accurate. They are better than crying poets, fictional novelists or lying politicians with poetic verses or flatly lying, non-sense political promises. FYI, I have been enjoying my work with hair-pooling and number-crunching assignments.
The NAVI. is so fun. Today on my ride to work I noticed the smart NAVI. constantly showed countless icons of gas stations, hotels/ motels and restaurants on the map screen which are closest to my HAH's moving position. It is so fascinating. "Thou shall never be starving, sleepless or out-of-gas from now on". One command "Display nearest restaurants" will give me a list of 5 or 6 different restaurants closest to my HAH's current position with notes indicating them as Chinese, Vietnamese or American restaurants...). The NAVI. is really a big toy. I enjoy it so much.
The AUTO STOP is only turned on when I drive slower than 6 or 7 miles or stop the car. It is real smart. It appears the car (or Honda engineers) can read my mind. When the car stops at the lights/ stop signs engine shuts off completely and is quietly innocent like a little Cheetah.
I am a moderate driver so the MPG of 30.2 in mixed driving/ mostly city make me pretty much happy. I am strongly convinced that on straight highway runs I can achieve at least 37 or 38 MPG easily as Honda promised. Honda loves to be AC(C)URA(te) and has never lied to me.
What would I give up by purchasing the Malibu Maxx? Maybe 1 sec. in 0-60mph; but since I don't floor at every light I wouldn't know the difference. And I might give 1-2 mpg in real-life. I've always found GM 6-cyl. to return better than rated mileage. I've had a '94 Corsica, and a '98 Camaro (5-spd) both which delivered 30 mpg combined and mid-30's highway.
The HAH does not have a significant advantage to warrant buying it. I'm even shocked in the above posts to see how close a diesel (with dirty fuel) is in emissions to the HAH.
I still say that it doesn't make much sense to try a new technology, pay top $ for taking the chance, and then get a marginal improvement over well-proven simpler technology. The HAH should have been a 4-cyl vehicle for a street-price of no more than $20K. Maybe the next iteration?
And, I wouldn't consider Honda or Toyota's systems to be "taking a chance." Perhaps Ford, but not Honda or Toyota's. They've pretty much kicked the bugs out by now. I don't know as much about the Civic, but the Prius is top-rated for reliability.
You say:
"Honda's engineers make my life much more fun and accurate. They are better than crying poets, fictional novelists or lying politicians with poetic verses or flatly lying, non-sense political promises."
I'm a novelist. You, I think, said that you were an engineer.
Therefore, would you suggest that I'd hate the Honda Accord Hybrid?
By the way, I drive a Honda Civic Hybrid.
I was considering a HAH, but after your comment, I find myself waffling LOL!
=gregg=
My mechanic friends said Honda engines are very much sophisticated yet they are not unnecessarily complicated like BMW or Benz' engines. However, it appears Honda has exchanged technology with BMW because Honda's latest distributor wires/ sockets look similar to BMW's counterparts.
BTW, Viet, since you are one of the resident Honda lifers, what brand of gas are you using?
I'll post mileage when I fill up for the first time.
Location: Murrieta, CA
Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:12 pm Post subject:
Did 245 miles today and hit 35.7. I'm sure MPG will increase as I break it in. I have 525 on so far.
_________________
Tim
05' Desert Mist Accord Hybrid
I didn't get NAVI, partly b/c I couldn't wait any longer, and I park on the street and try to draw as little attention to how NICE the HAH is.
My dealer told me he uses 87 Unocal.
"I would save at least $10K on the purchase price of a
HAH, and buy a Malibu Maxx which sells for about $15K. "
Buying a Malibu Maxx is a smart idea as that vehicle
has the height and look of a Sedan and offers 22 cu. ft.
of cargo space which is the same as like Crown Victoria.
But why not you suggest this idea to those who buy those
big sedans.
After all Maxx has the sliding / reclining rear seat which
gives more comfort to 3 rear-seat passengers.
But note that HAH is launched to prove that Hybrid vehicles
can have both the performance and mileage as well and it
has got lot of features that are found in a luxury car and
that is why it costs 30 K.
http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101529
Good article that compares the HAH with a diesel Accord!
It will be very useful to see how this first year car does in comparison to __other__ first year cars.
It also helps planning for the hybrid future.
The net performance gains are quicker 0-60 acceleration time at 7.5 instead of 8.0 sec, and about 25% FE improvement.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/12/comparing_accor.html
My feeling right now is that the HAH has been added a lot of complex components for little gains in performance or economy. Meanwhile it still does not have important safety features like Electronic Anti-Skid Control, and its historical fatality rate is about 50% higher than the Camry as reported by IIHS.
I have a few questions, hopefully somenone has some info:
Does the E motor's kick in at low or high speed?
How long will the battery pack last?
How much does the battery pack cost to replace?
How real is the 33MPG?
How will the ECU, inverter, E motor, active engine mounts, noise canceling system... impact reliability?
What are warranty coverage and replacement costs for the additional electronics?
Why isn't the 2.2I Diesel engine available in the US?
I will make an attempt to answer the questions you asked:
Does the E motor's kick in at low or high speed?
Electric motor never drives the vehicle by itself, but is available on demand. Any time acceleration is needed, the electric motor provides the extra power at any speed. This assistance has also helped VCM (variable cylinder management) to operate under conditions where it normally wouldn’t.
To put this in perspective, a non-hybrid VCM system (as in Odyssey) will turn off three of six cylinders during cruising. If you had to accelerate the vehicle, under light, moderate or heavy throttle, all six cylinders will be activated.
In Accord Hybrid, however, VCM can continue to keep the three cylinders idle during light to moderate throttle acceleration. Under heavy throttle VCM will operate the engine with all six cylinders AND electric assist.
How long will the battery pack last?
IMA system carries an eight-year/80K mile warranty. The batteries should go beyond 100K miles. Their capacity may deteriorate over time and may require more frequent charging as they age.
How much does the battery pack cost to replace?
Solely based on the premise that IMA premium (for the complete electrical system) may be about $2500 or less, it is clear that OEM batteries don’t cost as much as the wild guesses suggest.
How real is the 33MPG?
I would say, almost as real as 24 mpg is for Accord V6. Some can beat it, others won’t. Especially in case of hybrids, the driver has greater opportunity to control the fuel economy he/she wants to get out of the car. The more involvement electric motor has, the greater the mileage will be.
How will the ECU, inverter, E motor, active engine mounts, noise canceling system... impact reliability?
Noise canceling system is a very simple thing. I have audio headsets with the feature and all it does it create a “negating” noise signal to neutralize certain frequencies. That, and active engine mounts aren’t really a “hybrid” thing. You would find the same in non-hybrid vehicles (among Honda/Acura vehicles, currently used in Acura RL and Honda Odyssey).
Electric motor itself is far sturdier than gasoline/diesel engines (besides being simple given the few moving parts). I’m not sure about Accord Hybrid (but may be the same), in other IMA applications the brushless DC motor replaces part of engine’s flywheel. This accomplishes two tasks one, get the job done of a flywheel and two, do the job that it is meant to!
Why isn't the 2.2I Diesel engine available in the US?
Primarily, I would say emissions. Diesel engines rate at the bottom when it comes to smog/particulate matter related emissions. Until the power train system can be cleaned up enough, and/or the fuel itself is higher quality, the issue will continue. And another reason could be production capacity.
Most European (and some Asian) markets prefer diesel over gasoline motors due to lower fuel cost. Gasoline (or petrol as it is called) in some markets can be 2-3 times more expensive per gallon (or liter) than diesel. This isn’t true in America, and people will be less than willing to give up performance if savings aren’t enough. I would imagine that a loaded Accord Diesel would carry a price tag comparable to Accord EXV6. A 140 HP car for the same price as a 240 HP version can be a tough sell in USA.
I agreed with all your assessments of the HAH. Very well written. I take notice with your assessment of the Accord i-CDTI and it's performance. The Accord diesel has set no less than 19 records. To me the two most important are the mileage and endurance. 24 hour endurance run at an average speed of 130.38 MPH. I have not seen any such tests of the V6 Accord or the HAH. Would they still be running if you tried it? And the gas mileage on their return trip from going 24 hours was an amazing 76.6 MPG. No the HAH is not even in the same league as the Accord i-CDTI. Here is what the rest of the world thinks about our view of the Accord diesel.
So why can't North Americans get cars as efficient and powerful as the Accord 2.2i-CDTi Sport? So far diesels haven't been accepted by the U.S. buying public.
Those are the lies perpetrated by the media and the environmental groups. The Accord i-CDTI would be a bigger seller by far than the HAH if the American public was given the choice.
PS
Fuel quality is not the fault of the buying public. It is all on the shoulders of the EPA and law makers. All they have done since being founded 30 years ago is get rid of lead in gas.