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I have a question what does the electric motor in the Accord Hybrid do? Honda claims the HAH has combined 255 HP. The VCM V6 puts out 255 HP all by itself. Is this a smoke and mirror use of hybrid electric motor?
http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=101022
Thanks for that info..
-Use moderate throttle acceleration instead of leadfooted driving. In case of Accord Hybrid, under moderate acceleration, VCM will continue to keep one bank of cylinders idle and electric assist will come to rescue. This will improve your gas mileage.
-Minimize cold start warm up time. 15-20 seconds should be enough to get your car moving.
I have an EX-V6 and the side curtain airbags are clearly labeled on the four corners.
Just consulted with the Oracle of Mount Zeus and was told the following:
Long term resale value of the HAH will be the best in the industry!
Lifespan of batteries will be a non-issue unless you want to keep the HAH until 2031.
And oil barrel prices will drop from the current $40 range to the 7 to 9 dollar range in the next few weeks!
a serious answer to your question is that the lifespan of batteries and its replacement costs are an unknown? Long term resale value is just as unknown (will they depreciate as non-hybrid Hondas). Yes, there are stats on the hybrid civic, but these I would not call long term. Also resale values of all hybrids will be currently high--due to hybrids being the latest and greatest thing. In future years, the novelty of hybrids will fade and so will the resale values. When you buy an HAH, you buy much more uncertainty and potential expenses than a regular car.
Also if you keep the car long-term do you really want to have it serviced always at Honda dealers. I tend to flee from dealerships after warranty and seek independents(you do not have that choice with a hybrid).
I accept that as an opinion, but why should resale values fade in the future? Automakers are gearing up to build many more hybrid models in the next few years. With worldwide demand for oil increasing (a fact), long-term gas prices are not likely to decrease. Cars that use less gas should remain popular.
As for servicing, noted car experts Click & Clack have stated that there is little on a hybrid that cannot be serviced by a competent mechanic. They don't even think the regenerative brakes on hybrids are that special, service-wise. Sure, if there's a problem with the hybrid powertrain you'll want to take the car to the dealer. But for routine service, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to use a competent independent.
Today, I drove my Accord 95 EX I4 to go to the movie with my out-state brother. That old Accord has been extremely dependent and loyal to me for so many years. Its color is fading a little bit but the it shows real strength and solidity with original engine, original transmission, leather seats and all other original components except the battery. Even the lights are original. It produces the strongest power of 145HP and its MPG is same like day one. That is one of the main reasons I trust and stick with Honda. I will begin my extensive research and comparison again in my next car purchase but I doubt that the other auto makers can easily beat Honda in producing powerful cars with great MPG, durability, comfort, reliability, creativity, innovation and Honda's competent leadership in automotive technology. I love the "VROOOOOM" of my regular V6 and the V6 hybrid any time I start up those powerful engines. My HAH digital MPG is always 30. Will track and calculate manual MPG.
To me, sometimes happiness may be just a few short hours sitting behind the wheels of my top Accords, the reliable, powerful and quiet "driving machines" to drive around running errands or do something. Today, I drove my old Accord with no NAVI. and I did get lost a little bit in the neighborhood towns. With my HAH's sophisticated NAVI. I have had no single chance to get lost. It is really my pure simple "hi tech" happiness. With my cell phone and the HAH I can drive anywhere until the..."Big MAMA" calls me home for...dinners.
The HAH uses a three liter motor at 240 hp. The net effect of the electric motor is 15 hp.
The manin effect of VCM is to improve highway mileage by shutting down 3 cylinders and it does not add horsepower.
Happy New Year,
MidCow
As there are more hybrids on the road, the novelty and uniqueness of hybrids will diminish. This is what happens to any new technology.
The premium price of hybrids today do not only reflect gas savings or a desire to be more green, but mainly the urge to own the latest and newest technology. Nobody in this forum can justify buying a hybrid merely on gas savings unless they drive more than double of what the average owner drives annually.
The only justification for the premium paid for hybrids is the fact that there is a limited supply of hybrids. Once the supply of hybrids increases, the novelty and uniqueness of these vehicles will decrease and prices will go down. Who will pay a premium prices above gas savings---once hybrid technology become as common as automatic transmissions?
"little on a hybrid that cannot be serviced by a competent mechanic."
Assuming a competent independent mechanic services your car. Unfortunately there are quite a few mechanics who are incompetent and may share the same electrocuted fate as those awaiting death row.
What will happen with the HAH, I think, is what happens with most new models after they have been out for awhile: discounts will start to appear in time. So the $3000 or so "hybrid premium" for the HAH will become just that, and not more based on hyper market demand for the HAH compared to other Accords. This is not a hybrid phenomenon but a market phenomenon. Buyers are paying top dollar for the '05 Odyssey now, too. But in a year or two discounts will return, just as they did when the newness of the last-gen Ody wore off.
Thus people who buy the HAH now will pay a huge premium for that privilege, just as people who have to have a new Ody today will pay more than people who buy one a year or two from now.
Are you saying a competent mechanic will be electrocuted doing routine maintenance on an HAH? Things like oil changes, brake checks, coolant flushes, tranny flushes, tire rotations? If so, perhaps you should report that safety hazard immediately to the NHTSA so they can initiate a recall action on the HAH.
Do you know what the service schedule for the HAH is? Do you know which service items cannot be handled by a competent mechanic?
BUT there is one big difference.
The potential technology improvements in future hybrids may be more rapid than the odyssey. In a few years the Prius 2 and the current HAH could be as obsolete as a Pentium 1 is today. I dont see such radical changes in the market for minivans(odyssey). And the more radically technology changes, the bigger effect it will have on future prices.
Thanks for the info about the NHTSA. I will call them tomorrow and save thousands of lives :b
The Odyssey prices paid is a very busy thread. Seems you can get real good deals on the EX with leather. That would be a good way to try out Honda's VCM. Several bought at just over Invoice. That is where a person should buy any vehicle, or walk out of the dealership.
obrien040362, "Honda Odyssey: Prices Paid & Buying Experience" #7768, 29 Dec 2004 11:51 pm
Bingo! You are correct about hybrid minivans representing radical change. Your argument confirms my argument about hybrid technology.
I would fly to get a good deal on a car too, if necessary. Fortunately I've been able to get good deals on the cars I've purchased close to home. I just haven't purchased a really "hot" car like the HAH before. Closest I came was the '04 Prius I ordered, but I got $500 off list on that in November '03, so I didn't think that was unreasonable given the popularity of the car.
PS
I bought my first new vehicle in 1964, A Toyota Land Cruiser for $2400 here in San Diego. The only Japanese car I still wish I had.
Alaska and California are notorious for overcharging.
___I don’t know about Alaska but California has had some of the best deals going as of the last 2 - 4 weeks on Accord LX’s, EX’s, EX-L’s, EX-L’s w/ NAVI, and V6’s w/ and w/out NAVI in the country. You bet it is worth the flight and drive back. I would turn the trip out into a mini-vacation in fact.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
And of course if one wants zero dollar pay out from his tight pocket he can jog fast to work or frog leap to the shopping malls every day to save big bucks.
I love the highly sophisticated NAVI., 8 cup holders, 8 airbags, 2 cell phone chargers, 105K miles maintenance schedule, no spare tire, 255HP, 0 to 60 in 6.5 seconds, the decent MPG 30/38 plus, VCM, ICE, auto stop, 3 working engines on highway, and other electronic, electric and mechanical components of the HAH. Timing belt is to be replaced at 105K miles. I always have achieved MPG better than the sticker MPG.
___You can speak plenty of the AH’s amenities but they are no different from the non-hybrid I4 or V6 based Accord’s you could purchase for $8,000 to $10,000 less except for the less powerful ICE, no TCS, more trunk space, and the powered sunroof of course. The wife test drove an I4 EX-L w/ NAVI yesterday for ~ 12 miles from dead cold with ~ ½ of that city. We ended up her drive at a nice 30.7 mpg parking lot to parking lot in 39 degree F temps. She doesn’t drive anything like I do but she also never needed to floor the I4 on that trip around town or down the State Route highway and back either. See below for more on this
Honda Inc. has been offering 1.9% financing on all Accord models except the HAH (2.9%). It is the best deal ever And of course if one wants zero dollar pay out from his tight pocket he can jog fast to work or frog leap to the shopping malls every day to save big bucks.
___Non-hybrid based 05 Accord’s of all trims (I4 LX’s through EX-L’s w/ NAVI and V6’s) have been leaving the show rooms of both the East and West Coast Honda dealerships for a best $1,235 under Invoice to a few hundred under Invoice in the last 2 weeks and with the 1.9%. All except the AH which is MSRP or MSRP + still.
___A few items my wife commented on during her test drive was the I4’s lack of or feel of power vs. her much more powerful daily driver, the MDX. I asked her when was the last time she floored the MDX? She said never. I then told her this is a 9.0 second to 60 or less car vs. the 8 second to 60 MDX. She floored it for about 5 seconds and didn’t say another word about its performance. She did comment on the I4’s lack of smoothness when accelerating in comparison to the MDX. She drives with her foot in a continuously non-smooth acceleration/deceleration oscillation which not only drives me batty, it is terrible for FE so if anyone could feel a lack of smoothness, she could :-( Her other comments and I have to agree are that the interior, sunroof, sunroof trim, and amenities are not nearly as nice as the MDX’s unfortunately. We didn’t have time for her to test drive the V6 but it would not have mattered, a PZEV based I4 Accord EX-L w/ NAVI might land in my garages parking space but it won’t end up in hers. Why didn’t Acura build the TL (TSX is too small) w/ the Accord’s std. I4 and possibly Hybridize it instead? It would make the additional cost easier to swallow as the Acura premiums and more upscale interiors could hide the hybridization up-charge far better imho.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The Accord V6 is real smooth. Your wife may want to test drive one to compare with the MDX.
I was caught in between the Accord V6 RX regular and the HAH. But I chose to buy the HAH to save some more gas as if I drive the HAH but pay gas for a Civic. Also, the new hybrid technology attracted me so much.
The MSRP of the HAH is only $2,800 something more than the MSRP of the Accord V6 EX. One should be willing to pay a little bit extra for the brand new hot HAH. In this slow economic climate, all other cars are also on big sale. Honda automobiles gets the negative impact.
240 HP in an Accord V6 is really something. 15 extra HP on a HAH is also something more terrific. I shameful admit that I have been so obsessed with Honda's real HP and the awesome response from those big fat V6 engines. However, I have never "floored" my V6s as your wife did it quite a few times while taking chances to get away from the cops.
You might consider the following fact as trivial. But HAH's engine and transmission are made in Japan. I notice that Japanese electronic products made in Japan are twice the prices of same products made in other countries. I do hope the HAH is a really solid car. This fact may justify that HAH is not on big sale recently.
The MSRP of the HAH is only $2,800 something more than the MSRP of the Accord V6 EX. One should be willing to pay a little bit extra for the brand new hot HAH.
___You have to look at the Honda Accord - “Prices Paid and Buying Experiences” forum. I think the last 05 Accord EX V6 (non-NAVI) went for < $23,300. This is much less then the $32,500 you had to pay for the AH.
However, I have never "floored" my V6s as your wife did it quite a few times while taking chances to get away from the cops.
___What are you talking about? My wife has never floored the MDX and it she has never had to do such a thing to get away from any police officer?
The Accord V6 is real smooth. Your wife may want to test drive one to compare with the MDX.
___I am sure the Accord’s V6 is as smooth as the Acura’s 3.5 L V6 but it was the Accord’s lack of amenities as well as a clean and upscale interior that turned her off. She doesn’t like Acura leather as much as Toyota’s, Ford’s, or Lexus’ which is another reason I am looking for a replacement I like the MDX for many reasons including its size and the > 30 mpg out on the highway when I drive it but it isn’t enough given her terrible 17 mpg average daily commute as of late in the 0 - 15 degree F temps we have had here in the Chicagoland area over the past 3 weeks. The last 3 days not with standing of course ;-) I just don’t know if I can get her into an upscale something else that is a bit more fuel efficient or if it is cost effective given the depreciation just to get into whatever with higher fuel efficiency. Not that I am complaining about the MDX’s resale because it is stupendous by comparison to just about any other automobile but her 17 mpg back and forth pisses me off to no end and even the kids are beginning to get on her about it as well God Bless them if you know what I mean ;-)
You might consider the following fact as trivial. But HAH's engine and transmission are made in Japan. I notice that Japanese electronic products made in Japan are twice the prices of same products made in other countries.
___There are many non-hybrid Accord’s that are made in Japan. Any VIN beginning with JH are Japanese made in fact. The glaring item I see in regards to the supposed superiority of Japanese made Honda’s is that the Honda/Acura tranny’s having problems in the past 4 to 5 years were all designed and built in Japan. That takes the glow off of any Honda product(s) made exclusively in Japan imho.
___For me, I have driven enough miles in the Insight to get more then just a feel for Honda’s IMA technology. It doesn’t wow me like some here and thus with a much shorter commute coming, I am not looking at Insight type FE but a more practical local car with luxuries we are used to in my wife’s automobiles. I would love the TL’s interior, exterior, and similar size as that of the Accord but for it to come with Accord’s base I4’s ICE (not souped up and its FE destroyed like that of the TSX) as well as the tires of the std. Accord’s for FE purposes. Even with my wife’s terrible FE skills, the non-setup I4 was giving her 35 to 40 mpg for some portions of her test drive (highway portions) vs. my I4 based Accord test drive (highway portion) yielding 50 + in much warmer temperatures. Neither Acura nor Lexus offer a very fuel efficient but luxurious automobiles to date unfortunately. 45 + is the beginning of what I call fuel efficient and the ES and RXh won’t hit those kind of numbers no matter how I drive it The RXh might if I drove it around at 33 mph but that isn’t practical in the least :-(
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
You know a lot about Honda automobiles and other cars and I sincerely admire for that. My final word: I am still convinced that I can achieve the MPG of 38 to 40 plus on my HAH on the highway. That was one of my main reasons, on top of other reasons, to buy it.
In a few years its price will be saturated and it will be less expensive. Now, for the MDX, TL, Ody, HAH, buyers find tough to negotiate with dealerships to get discounts. I have stayed away from expensive MDX and Acura with low MPG for a long time. Thank you for your feedback.
You might have made me feel "so stupid, uninformed and ignorant..." not buying an old Accord model. I knew all those big sales on Honda. With out-the-door $28K or less I could buy a nice 2005 EX V6 Accord with NAVI. BUT, it was so difficult to me to resist the temptation to try the new Accord Hybrid technology.
One of the posters on another thread, highender, is not at all happy with the mileage he gets with his new Acura TL. The biggest complaint is having to get the revs up so high to get the rated HP. Not very much torque. Your wife may be better off with a GM V6. They get decent mileage with little effort. Not sure if they are plush enough for her tastes. They are roomier than most of the Japanese competition.
I think many of us are so much into the economy of cars that we cannot get past it. There is something to be said for being first on the block to own a unique car. The HAH is truly unique. It will be several years before we know if it is a great car. That is the chance you decided to take. I hope you love it as much as the other Accords in your stable. My advice, keep the boys out of it.
And as 2004 comes to an end, let us remember to respect each other and not berate each other for the personal decisions we make concerning the cars we drive. Just because a car like the HAH is not one that everyone would choose for himself or herself, that does not give us the right to pick apart someone else's choice--especially here in this discussion that is entirely about the HAH, not about what other cars someone could buy for less money or whatever.
Happy New Year!
___I am not implying or making you feel anything of the sort In the same breath, flooring it to run from the cops stuff sure wasn’t appreciated? I congratulate you on your purchase of the AH as that is what you wanted but there were costs involved. My wife wanted an MDX back in 02/03 and that is what she received even though we test drove the Toyota Camry XLE V6, Toyota Highlander, Lexus ES, and Lexus RX300 (at the time). She didn’t want to wait for the upcoming all-new Sienna (at the time) and the Odyssey’s were so blistering hot that we walked out of more then one Honda dealership without so much as even looking at one. I wanted her in a loaded up I4 based Camry XLE myself but that is the way the ball bounces.
___There are a few items I noticed between the Accord I4 and the AH which you should find pleasing. The Accord I4’s have prop rods vs. the V6’s and Hybrid’s gas struts for the hood. The V6 including the AH have a slightly nicer interior trunk lid covering then the I4’s as well. I am sure there will be more other lux appointments included with the AH uncovered in the near future.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes