Hybrid Honda Accord

georgepburdell

I feel this too, although I would call it more of a "clank" than a "click." I don't know what it is either. It is not in the action of shifting to D from R that I hear it, but after I have started moving a few feet. I think this is consistent with what you are hearing.

gagrice

"it is a characteristic of the car."

Honda seems to have several known "Characteristic Problems" They need to fix the cars they have sold. I got the same kind of shabby treatment from Honda in 1978 with my Accord. Does not look like they have changed. There were no Lemon Laws to use back then so I was stuck with my Lemon. Just keep documenting the trouble and service calls. I hated having a car in the shop more than on the road.

backy

FWIW I did not hear any such "clank" when I drove the HAH and did several stops and starts. May indicate it's not a general "feature" of the car.

1winglow

Honda should say, "it's characteristic of cheap cars."

Honda would say the same thing when you start having brake problems at about 50K miles...

viet

http://www.statefarm.com/insuranc/auto/nicbcars/connecticut.htm

larsb

Yet another adoring review of the HAH:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34882-2005Feb18.ht- ml/?nav=lb

gagrice

Do you know why the Accord is a big theft target?
Parts, Honda parts are such a rip-off that they can make a ton of money by stealing an Accord and selling the parts. It has nothing to do with car thieves liking Honda. It is a business decision pure and simple. You have a lot of cheap Toyota & Honda cars falling apart and people looking for less expensive parts.

backy

You have a lot of cheap Toyota & Honda cars falling apart and people looking for less expensive parts.

Interesting that these "cheap" Toyotas and Hondas that "fall apart" so readily are at or near the top of the charts when it comes to reliability studies.

Consider that a more likely reason that Accords are top targets is that there are so many of them--they are perennially one of the top-selling vehicles (must be because they fall apart so readily!)--and they do get in collisions.

viet

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/12/21/308485.html

gagrice

they are perennially one of the top-selling vehicles

I'm sure you meant Cars. Ford and GM both sell twice as many PU trucks as the best selling Toyota Camry. I know my last 4 Chevy trucks were much more reliable and less expensive to repair than the Toyotas and Accord I owned. We will know in a year or so if the HAH is reliable.

viet

http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_honda_sohc_vima

backy

I meant "one of the top-selling vehicles". Check the Top 10 vehicles sold in the U.S. in 2004.

Also check the reliability stats for the Honda Accord vs. Chevy trucks (e.g. Suburban) in the CR Annual Auto Issue and tell us what you see when thousands of samples are taken into account vs. just a few.

gagrice

Honda Accord vs. Chevy trucks

We could argue over the CR all day. I think they are paid off, you think they are realistic. I would bet any amount of money there are percentage wise more Chevy trucks over 10 years old still running than there are 10 year old Honda Accords. Japanese cars are throw aways. 10 years and they are a heap of rust and rattles.

backy

You can have your bets and assumptions and accusations of bribery; I'll take the data from CR et. al. based on thousands of samples.

I see lots of Accords that are 10+ years old. One of my friends owns one--still looks and drives great. Which is amazing since I live in the Rust Belt. When I travel outside the Rust Belt, e.g. CA and TX, I see tons of Accords older than 10 years old. And I see a lot of old trucks, too. But I don't see any justification for your assertion that thieves steal Accords more often because they "fall apart".

gagrice

I don't see any justification for your assertion that thieves steal Accords more often because they "fall apart".

OK so maybe that was a stretch. They don't steal them because they like the cars. It is for the parts, that is a fact. It has a lot to do with the area you live in also. The parts are worth a lot more than the whole car. And easier to fence.

falconone

Honda is merely a victim of its own success. They are FAR from cheap cars. If you want to talk cheap, let's talk GM!!! I agree that Japanese parts are expensive, but if you have some sense, there are discounters out there. You just have to know how to find them.

gagrice

there are discounters out there. You just have to know how to find them.

You call them what you like. Many times those less expensive car parts were stripped from your neighbors car. I'll bet you cannot find any aftermarket parts for the HAH. Maybe in 10 years. Even the tires are becoming specialized for different vehicles. Thus more expensive. I can take my old 1999 Suburban into the middle of Mexico and feel comfort in the fact that they will have parts available if I were to break down. Not so with most Japanese vehicles. The Honda and Toyota dealers in the USA don't stock parts for even the latest cars. That is why all these stories of cars sitting at the dealers for weeks while they get a part from Japan. You can have that kind of service if you like, not me.

larsb

Gary, remember: The HAH is just an Accord with a few extra drivetrain components. There are no startling new mystery parts !! The IMA system is refined, mature, and is now into the third generation.

Any aftermarket parts that fit on a 2005 non-Hybrid Accord should work just fine on the HAH.

If you are talking about "aftermarketers" who might have HYBRID SPECIFIC REPLACEMENT PARTS, well, no, since the car is only on the road for two months now, I'd bet those are few. But that is true for ANY newly released car.

But why would anyone need those "aftermarket" parts anyway, when the car is warrantied by Honda?

Those parts will not QUITE take 10 years to hit the aftermarkets - maybe a couple.

But HAH aftermarket would have new stuff, not like the GM parts that get used on 15 different trucks...........The Avalanche is 88% Suburban underpinnings....

gagrice

But HAH aftermarket would have new stuff, not like the GM parts that get used on 15 different trucks...........The Avalanche is 88% Suburban underpinnings....

BINGO, you win the prize. That is what makes them more reasonable to repair after the warranty is gone. I believe the Japanese have made such huge profits by NOT using the same parts for different vehicles. It makes them the sole source for most replacement parts and a TON of profit in the process. And they are higher targets for theft.

backy

The Japanese have made such huge profits by making high-quality vehicles that do not need huge rebates to sell. What's the rebate on the HAH (or any Accord) these days? What's the average rebate on a GM, Ford, or DC vehicle? There's also the $2000 per vehicle that GM has to pay in pension benefits that cuts their profits in relationship to the Japanese.

gagrice

The Japanese have made such huge profits by making high-quality vehicles that do not need huge rebates to sell. What's the rebate on the HAH (or any Accord) these days? What's the average rebate on a GM, Ford, or DC vehicle? There's also the $2000 per vehicle that GM has to pay in pension benefits that cuts their profits in relationship to the Japanese.

I agree they make huge profits on the backs of under paid labor. What is the average pension for a Honda worker in the USA? I doubt it compares to the UAW workers. You seem to think that is admirable on the part of the Japanese companies. I thought when they first came to the US market that it was good for competition. It has hurt our standard of living especially in the middle part of the USA. I guess those it does not impact could care less.

gagrice

What's the rebate on the HAH (or any Accord) these days?

I can tell you that a HAH with NAV is $35K at Tipton Honda in El Cajon, CA. The same dealer will sell me a V6 Accord EX-L with NAV for $27k and the 4 cylinder EX-L with NAV for $25k. $8K-$10K will buy a lot of gas even at $2.50 per gallon. A good 100,000 miles worth at least. That is why hybrids will never be mainstream..

backy

What I think is admirable or not admirable is not the point--and I didn't say anything was admirable. I'm simply trying to correct the spread of mis-information. Keep tossing out assertions such as thieves are stealing Accords because they "fall apart" and Honda's big profits are because their vehicles use different parts (actually not true--e.g. consider Honda's shared platform and shared engine strategy) and I'll continue to try to get back to facts.

backy

And the rebate on all those Accords, including the HAH, is... $0, right?

benderofbows

...are just another marketing ploy to get the customer in the door. An ad stating a certain car is "only $18,500" is just not going to get as much attention as "$20,500 minus $2,000 cash back until the end of the month only!"

Didn't the Accords just have $1,000 or 1.9% financing for 60 months? Along with some cheap lease deals?

backy

Honda has traditionally used financing programs to lure customers, e.g. 2.9% on Accords and Civics. I've not heard of any $1000 rebates on Accords (certainly not on the HAH), but I did see one dealer offering $500 off on the HAH instead of the 2.9% financing.

gagrice

And the rebate on all those Accords, including the HAH, is... $0, right?

I think you have lost sight of the issue. The hybrids and especially the HAH are too expensive for the average buyer to consider, even if they are cool with all their gadgetry. They are limited in their appeal along with the manufacturers limiting their production. After going and sitting in them, I would not hesitate to buy the EX-L 4 cylinder if I needed a car. I think that is a good car for the price. I believe I could get them down to under $24k. That would be $11k less than the HAH which does not have a trunk big enough to stuff a body in, and no moonroof to shoot jackrabbits from. PLUS in reality the 4 cylinder has better gas mileage, and much better emissions rating.

backy

And this is from someone who owns a Suburban and a Lexus LS400.

The average price of a new car is about $30,000. As has been reported here recently, the HAH can be had for less than that in some areas. The HCH can be had for around $19,000. The Prius starts at about $22,000. Both of those cars are less than that Accord EX-L 4-cylinder you mentioned. So why is it again that hybrids are too expensive for the average buyer to consider?

I could quote the EPA ratings for the Accord EX 4-cylinder vs. the HAH again, but since you like to ignore facts and also compare apples to oranges (4-cylinder cars to 6-cylinder cars on emissions for example), why bother?

It is clear you despise the HAH and Honda in general. Why why why why WHY do you continue to hang around here, unless it's just for daily reports on your conspiracy theories?

viet

I agreed with Backy. When Honda/ Toyota offers 2.9% financing the Big Three always goes down to zero percent and possibly offer customers with extra extra large barbecue pits and super fresh ($4.9999/a pound) super-lean steak to celebrate with their brand-new (Big 3) cars/ trucks at camping sites. In fact, that has been the automobile sale market trend for so many years.

I have owned so many Honda that I bought brand-new. 2 of them ran over 270K miles, 1 ran over 150K miles. My cousins' Honda ran over 200K miles. No problems.

Honda parts are a bit expensive but they are always available at Honda dealerships and very easy to buy. I bought cheaper timing belts (big and small belts at CSK/Kragen Auto Parts), head light bulbs, coolant, Bosch spark plugs, Fram oil filter, air filter, Mobil 1 oil, etc. to put in my old Accord and they worked real fine. For an over 150K-mile Accord who cares to buy all original Honda parts to put in? My Accords just "jumps around" and speeds up any time, any day. No single breakdown whatsoever from zero miles to 270K miles as I have organized and followed through very carefully with periodic maintenance schedules. However, many major parts require precision so be careful not to replace every parts with aftermarket ones. It won't work.

After the major tune up at 212K miles, my Accord 1992 LX I4 engine cranked and revved as DAY ONE. It ran so smoothly and amazingly. In hardware stores, now there are tons of lawn mowers, lawn cutters/ trimmers, electric generators,etc. powered by Honda. They are a bit more expensive than other brands.

Prices are determined by the markets. They are customers' willingness to pay for specific products. That is one of the basic principals in Economics. Low quality and inferior products cannot be oversold because most customers are very smart and will not be cheated easily.

viet

When one buys a Prius at Toyota he/she gets to bargain to add on "packages" (options). There are 6 "packages" for the Prius. My friend at work bought a Prius at $27,999.999999999 with some "packages (115 HP).

For the HAH, there is only one option, the Navi. system at $2K extra (total of $31,999.999999999) (255 HP).

Honda is different from Toyota in that aspect. Honda has abolished the sale strategy to bargain with customers on "extra options" a long time ago. They replaces it by selling Honda at different "trim levels". 10 years ago when buying an Accord I had to buy floor mats separately. Now, everything is in one package.

gagrice

I could quote the EPA ratings for the Accord EX 4-cylinder vs. the HAH again

Did the HAH improve past the 7 rating and catch the 4 cylinder Accord with it's 9 rating. Each point equals twice the pollution of the next higher point. Don't bother with the GHG rating that nobody will attain with the HAH. We have 10 drivers that are getting 13% below EPA Mileage ratings. That should bring the GHG tonnage up equal with the 4 cylinder Accord.

I'm not sure where you are getting your car prices. It sure isn't near San Diego. HAH w/NAV $35k, HCH MSRP special order only. According to Edmund's the # 6 Prius is $27,894 or about $1500 over MSRP in my zip code.

In conclusion my Suburban and LS400 have about as much to do with this debate as your two Hyundai Elantra's. I have not bought a car since June of 1998. There were no hybrids available at that time. What is your excuse for not buying one in 2001 or 2004?

falconone

Gary.. most probably your car/truck if American will be out of service MUCH more than if you owned an Asian car. Heck.. I'll take a Hyundai over a GM car ANY day of the week. Talk about jealousy.... sheeesh!!!!

benderofbows

1990 Honda Accord EX Auto, turned into the worst car I have ever owned at 8 years / 100k (breakdowns, out of service time, ownership costs, etc). The more expensive failures were attributed to electrical parts such as soleniods, control modules, igniter, relays, etc etc. These were the most expensive because of the cost of parts; labor was relatively very cheap. I shudder to think of a hybrid over 100k, with all of the extra electrical parts.

As far as American cars, the Accord replaced a 1989 Cherokee with 210,000 miles (original) that was still running last time I checked. I also had a 1998 Mazda 626 (half American- seriously, half of all the connectors under the hood were Ford design) that was the best car I ever had, still see it on the road with over 150k.

gagrice

1990 Honda Accord EX Auto, turned into the worst car I have ever owned

Be careful you will be branded a heretic on this thread. We have an old 1990 Mazda 626 that runs fine I should have guessed it was Made in America. Only 91k miles on it. I truly think that most any car if maintained will last a quite a long time. None of the brands have a corner on reliability, in spite of what that rag "CR" tries to claim.

Now the HAH is a different beast. It has some tall claims to live up to. So far it is not doing real well. We will see in a year if it is getting close to EPA mileage. Many owners barely getting 21-22 mpg. That is less than one would expect from the V6 Accord.

larsb

quote gagrice-"Many owners barely getting 21-22 mpg. That is less than one would expect from the V6 Accord.-"

Remember: cars not broken in, weather cold, drivers learning the ropes, etc etc.? Same thing happened with ALL other USA Hybrids at the outset...

Remember also: With 255 horses, many drivers are using them. This obviously hurts the MPG.

Remember: gh.com HAH average is 28 MPG, which is not bad considering the two points above.

Also: Show me a new 2005 Accord non-hybrid V6 that is averaging anywhere CLOSE to 28 MPG right now in the teeth of Winter...??????????

Let's have this discussion in the middle of the SUMMER and see who is not getting what they should get - then we can talk......

explorerx4

what the most stolen car in ct, has to do with anything. i live in ct. out of 48 vehicles on my street, 2 are honda accords. don't know what that means either, other than it is a fact!

gagrice

Remember also: With 255 horses, many drivers are using them. This obviously hurts the MPG.

That is my point, and has been since they announced it was not going to be an economy car but a street racer. Human nature is the biggest roadblock to the HAH getting good mileage.

Viet says he gets 32 with his V6 or was it his 4 banger. One in his stable of Accords.

Another reason they may not sell so well, is the people that want that kind of performance can buy the V6 Accord and do all kinds of trick stuff to raise the HP. That may be harder to do on the HAH. Plus you have $6k-$8k left if you buy the V6 Accord EX-L.

plethysmo

Lars, My 2003 V6 has an average of 28.30 over the past 5 fill ups. Overall 28.07 over 92 fill ups in 36K miles. It is a little higher than expected for Jan and Feb because LA is taking our (Seattle's) rain this winter.
Here is the chart of the 5 tank 'running average' to show seasonal and 'break in' mileage variations.
http://home.comcast.net/~icepax/Isblog/Graphics/AccordMileage36K.- gif

xcel

Hi All:

Not to get into the AH parts pricing debate, the prices quoted for the AH and non-hybrid Accord’s are a bit high to say the least. The FE quoted is a bit low as well and Larsb is right on given the temps the new AH drivers are enduring just like the rest of us right now …

The AH w/out NAVI can be picked up in Shreveport, LA. for $27,495 incl. destination. Yes, already at invoice. Along with that, $28,000 has been seen for over 2 weeks in the Chicago area and $28,900 in Sioux Fall’s, SD. as of ~ 2 weeks ago as well.

And the following for regular Accord’s:

05 Accord EX I4 w/ Auto: $20,173
05 Accord EX-L I4 w/ Auto: $21,561
05 Accord EX V6 w/ Auto: $23,538
05 Accord 2-door EX V6 w/ Auto: $23,495
05 Accord LX I4 w/ Auto: $18,999

Anyway, the Delta between the AH w/out NAVI vs. the EX V6 and the I4 based EX-L (both w/out NAVI) has shrunk considerably since our last discussion/debate … More along the lines of ~ $3,500 and $6,000 respectively. Still not worth it to me but it is worth bringing up.

In terms of real world FE of the non-Hybrid Accord’s, the following should just about take care of that question …

www.consumerreports.org/main/content/display_report.jsp?FOLDER%3C- %3Efolder_id=520005&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=389451

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

backy

the fuel economy in the Washington Post HAH review that was posted earlier today? It was 32 mpg overall. Not 22, but 32.

As for prices, thanks, Wayne for the report on the latest bargain prices on the HAH. Just shows that outside of SoCal's overheated hybrid car market, cooler heads prevail. It also means someone from SoCal could buy a one-way plane ticket to one of those other states, save thousands of bucks, and have an enjoyable drive back home.

gagrice

It also means someone from SoCal could buy a one-way plane ticket to one of those other states, save thousands of bucks, and have an enjoyable drive back home.

That is exactly what I would do. I haven't bought a new vehicle in CA since 1964. I think the Los Angeles area is easier to get good deals than San Diego. It is not worth fighting the traffic jam. Then if you buy in LA and try to get service in San Diego you are treated like a stepchild. If you buy out of state they treat you like a future customer.

Kirstie_H

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falconone

Gary... what may I ask do you add to this forum but doom and gloom. I suggest we take a vote and send Gary back to Shady Pines. I hear they have a fleet of HAHs there!!! Enjoy the weekend Gary. I hear they have a sale at the local Honda store.

yerth10

"doom and gloom"

Please read this
http://www.cars.com/news/stories/022105_storya_ut.jhtml?page=news- story&aff=national

GM is reducing its SUV's MSRP by $ 1,500.
Chevy TrailBlazer
GMC Envoy
Buick Rainier

Also they are planning to close
Pontiac-Bonneville & GMC Envoy-XUV.

Mid-size models of all SUV's shrank by 24 %.

Car based CUV's are eating up the sales.
Why ?. Higher gas prices have taken money from Average American's pocket and sent to OPEC
countries. A CUV has all the features of an SUV like
sliding / reclining rear-seat
4 Wheel drive
ample trunk space, etc
except the Truck Chassis which is anyway not required by a household.

People have no other go, but to buy Hybrid vehicles to reduce the gas bills.

gagrice

I hear they have a sale at the local Honda store.

I am surprised after all the rhetoric about how great the HAH and other hybrids are, you went out and bought a gas guzzling BMW. You make my point perfectly. People talk "green" and buy what they like.

falconone

That's my company vehicle. I drive a Kia Rio for groceries and local errands. Long live the hybrids!!!

larsb

OK, let's talk about "HANDLING"

Poll for all buyers of the Accord Hybrid:

Was one of the things you were concerned about and/or asked the salesman:

"How does it handle?"

I am of the opinion that "handling" is low on the priority list for a family sedan shopper and that "how well a car corners at high speeds" is NOT a concern for buyers in this demographic.

Am I right or wrong?

If one of your top priorities is "superior handling" then buy a sports type car, not a high MPG family sedan, right?

azhah

Maybe for a "family" sedan. I would catagorize this car as more of a "performance" sedan (besides the Hybrid aspect...) In that case handling IS an issue. When i took one for a drive I paid close attention to both handling and braking due to it's high HP rating. Just because you want a sedan or truck for that matter, doesn't mean you don't expect good handling charecteristics. Right?

benderofbows

Not all buyers of sedans are going to use them to haul kids around. Handling (not even at the cars' limits, but what can be felt in real-world driving) is important to a lot of people.

Previous generation Accords had much better handling.

electrictroy

Just replace the shock-breakable fuse. Probably $200-300 repair.

troy