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Comments
http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/04/pf/autos/bc.autos.survey.reut/index.htm
As long as you use CR as a benchmark I am compelled to question their validity.
CR has long been seen as a trusted shopping guide by many U.S. car buyers.
Am I correct in assuming that the 810,000 subscribers to CR are the ones that they are basing their reports on? If so, is that a linear cross section of vehicle owners? For instance the number one selling vehicle is the Ford "F" series PU trucks. About 6% of the vehicles sold in 2004 were Ford PU trucks. Is the make-up of the CR followers 6% owners of 2004 Ford trucks. Am I also to assume this 810,000 subscribers buy a new car every year to give them reliability reports? I don't think so. So how can they possibly be even close to accurate rating the 17 million vehicles sold in 2004?
That is why they can say "trusted by many car buyers". More accurately, trusted by the 810,000 subscribers to CR. I am part of the other 230 million car buyers that Don't believe their reporting is accurate. It is skewed toward the car buyers that subscribe and give them input. If they sent out a questionnaire to each new car buyer after they owned the car a year. I would say that would be a better criteria for basing a consumer report.
It can be done, Fingerhut sent me an advertisement for every new car I purchased for years.
Sending a survey to every new car owner would not in itself guarantee a statistically valid survey. Who knows which owners would actually return the surveys? The results could be skewed any number of ways. The only benefit of such a survey would be that you might get a statistically valid sample size for more cars than CR gets in its survey, because you are covering the entire population. However, I seriously doubt we will ever see a survey sent to the roughly 17 million people who bought a new car one year before, due to the costs involved. Who would pay for such a survey? It costs CR roughly $6 a pop to process its annual auto survey. Who's going to pay $100 million per year for a survey of all new car owners? Would you like to contribute to that survey? Sending an ad from a mailing list is a far cry from doing a survey of the kind CR conducts.
I am familiar with those type polls. The last election comes to mind where most of the polls were not correct.
If you were to tell me you love your Hyundai or larsb said the HCH he drives is a great car. I consider that testimonial evidence that I can believe. Polls and samples leave too much leeway with the people conducting the poll or taking the sample. I guess we are just not going to agree on this issue.
G, I have very little beef with the dozens of people I meet regularly on these Edmunds boards - after all, diversity of opinion is a big part of the rationale - but can you tell us again why you hang out in this forum? Worried that all that enthusiasm will carry us away? Think we're all victims of Honda's clever propaganda machine?
I don't own an Accord hybrid, but have owned 3 Accords and a like number of Civics and Acuras. None of them were perfect, but all but one were dead-on bulls-eye hits for their intended market and likely audience. As far as I can tell, it was Honda's intention in the case of the Accord Hybrid to take a swipe at rewriting the "rules" of the hybrid game - put the emphasis on performance, give the buyer a small but noticeable bump in lower fuel consumption, and charge a fair price considering the extra cost of the hardware and technology involved. Toyota is about to run up the same road with the Lexus RX. Also as far as I can tell, the market seems to agree with them. Just exactly what is wrong with this?
For the record, my preference is for the European approach - modern, direct-injection, turbodiesels that, with the right low-sulfur fuel [we're finally going to get there next year, 10 years behind the curve], are essentially without serious compromise - great go, lower fuel use, and meeting all of the relevant emissions regs. But since our market continues to be diesel-phobic, mired in perceptions that are 25 years old, I see what Honda and Toyota are doing with hybrids as the next best thing. I think their efforts deserve more than the back of your hand.
Nor do I. I disagree with many on several issues. I do agree with most of what you posted. First you have to accept that this forum is visited by a very minute sampling of the car buying public. If what I read on the CU website is true, they use a very small sampling to compile their reports. Why do you find it hard to accept that I and most people do not accept what is printed in CR? Of all the people I work with none think that CR is anything more than a joke. It is not accepted by the millions of car buyers as gospel. Only a few on this board have made it their bible. We do have freedom of religion in this country and you are free to preach it on this forum just as I am.
As for the Accord hybrid, it is a disappointment to me as it must be to the buying public. It is not selling very well. Partly because Honda dealers were poised to make a killing and very few rabbits went into their snares.
From what I have observed there are only about 5 or 6 HAH owners that visit this thread. What they have to say is the most important to me.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on the European diesel cars. I believe we will buy a Jetta TDI wagon in May for our home in Hawaii. Biodiesel is readily available at only a slight premium over # 2 diesel.
I pay absolute respect to you, a fun and knowledgable gentleman. However, I disagree with you that CR use small "statistical samplings" to test the HAH and other cars. If you check Road & Track, Wards, Consumer Guide, MSN Autos, etc. they all gave the HAH great scores.
I have been so happy with my HAH. When I paid $35K+ to buy the HAH with NAVI. as I paid lot of money to buy my other Accords in the past 25 years I have always kept one crucial thing in my mind that my hard-earned money is my "blood and tear money" and I have never wanted to waste it and I have to save it real good for my kids' education. As far as I know, Consumer Reports has not been wrong when it gives high credits to Toyota and Honda's automobiles, especially Honda autos. If you like European cars I wholeheartedly respect your views. Thanks.
Whoever said CR is a "bible"? I don't know about other people, maybe they worship every word CR prints. For me, CR is a source--one source--of information about cars. I find it to be a valuable source of information, but it's not a bible. One thing I like about it is that it's relatively dispassionate--sort of the Joe Friday of automotive reviews. I think it's a nice balance to other car reviews that can get pretty personal and emotional. Also, they tend to focus on things some other car reviewers don't, e.g. a big emphasis on interior room and comfort, fuel economy, and reliability. In some mags, like C/D, if a car is really fast 0-60 or handles like its on rails, nothing much else matters. Take all of these sources together, plus input from forums like this and personal experience, and you get a pretty complete picture of a car.
I find it curious, though, that on the one hand you say you don't trust CR because of its small sampling (810,000 car owners), but in almost the same breath tell us that if one person on this forum tells you he/she loves a car, that is meaningful to you. I don't get it.
Discussions about diesel cars and biodiesel are great stuff--but there's several other discussions for that.
My problem with CR has nothing to do with their choosing the Accord Hybrid. It is a long standing distrust of CU/CR, dating back to the 1960s. Heck they picked the Passat that I like last year. I just feel their testing is horribly flawed along with several other publications. I don't trust the media as a whole. I feel anymore that it is all driven by back room agendas.
I give your praise of the HAH more credibility than I do any magazine writer. I went and sat in one because you gave it high praise. I really liked the Honda Odyssey, a vehicle I could enjoy. My head was touching the roof on the Accord so that would not be a good one for me.
For you, I hope you get many years of trouble free driving with your HAH, and your whole fleet of Honda's
I consider a person's appraisal on a forum a personal witness to the good, bad & the ugly. I find reviews in magazines entertaining. I just don't believe much of what they say. You hit it on the head. If the car reviewer liked the way a car handles the rest of the article is skewed by his small perception of that car.
On the other side if you tell me that you really like your latest Hyundai, I have no reason to doubt you. You are not trying to sell me that car. You are giving me an honest appraisal of your day to day experience. Like viet he has had wonderful luck with Honda. I believe him, and give that testimonial credence. I am a believer in people, not corporations that are solely out to make money. We need them, I still don't trust them. Most of the money my company makes comes from BP and Exxon. I still don't trust them at all. I have watched their thievery for 25 years in the oil fields of Alaska.
I subscribed to CR in the early 1960s. They did a review of 35mm single lens reflex cameras. I bought the one they said was the best. I had nothing but trouble with that camera. And found out by research they never even had one in their possession. My opinion of CU is they are LIARS.. Now you know the rest of the story.
I advised my Mom to buy the Motor Trend COTY for 1976, the Plymouth Volare. Boy, those were GREAT cars, right? :-P (Actually, her particular car had a lot of recalls but held up pretty well.) Did I blame MT for it? No. They didn't make the decision to buy the car, and they didn't force me to advise my Mom to buy the car. Although I am pretty sure they had a Volare in their possession in order to test it and take pictures of it. I think their testing procedures have changed since the mid-70s. I expect CR's have changed too.
My very first motorcycles were Honda about 40 years+ ago. Since that very moment I was so in love with the engineering sophistication, the look, the power of Honda's engines, the intelligence and dedication of Honda engineers and everything from Honda.
In 1982, I was afraid that the bodies of Japanese cars were so fragile and my family could get killed in accidents so I decided to buy a Chevrolet Celebrity, 4 engines, great look, instrument panel looked like a "pilot cockpit" with the hope that we could have been well protected if accidents would happen. After about 38K miles, one day that pretty new Chevrolet died under a bridge and left my wife and kids stranded for hours while I was at work. After that bad experience all I bought were Toyota and Honda. Lately, all my favorites purchase were Honda. My next purchase in a year or so will probably be another Honda Accord hybrid. My 10 year old 200K miles Accord still runs good but when I get a little more extra money I rather replace it. CR gave the HAH excellent "solid red point" for crash protection.
Please clarify you comment about a CR camera test "And found out by research they never even had one in their possession." What kind of research could you possibly have done for you to have reached that conclusion?
It was very simple. I wrote and asked how they came to that conclusion on the cameras they tested. They wrote back and said they used manufacturers literature and price analysis to determine the best buy in 35mm cameras. I don't think they tested any of them. It was the same period of time when disc jockeys got money under the table to play certain records. I felt that is what happened with CR and the camera tests, payola. I have not read one of those rags since. That cost me a lot of money when I was not making very much.
Here you go... Consumer Reports
Thanks!
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I've continually posted about how my mpg has been in the low 20s because of my lead foot. Well tonight I drove home from the mountains (albeit downhill) and after the 57 mile descent the computer told me I was getting 55.1 mpg! This made me smile. Another hour of L.A. freeways and I was back down to 40.2 mpg.
Just a goofy post but it made me happy!
Not sure if I like the service dept. of the dealership I bought my HAH at.
Thanks
Honda Sedans
midnightcowboy, "Honda Accord Sedan" #16934, 14 Mar 2005 8:54 am
Maybe you should be asking on Acura RL board
Cheers,
MidCow
http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050317.gtwhaccord17/BNStory/Technolog- y/
Did you notice how the review feels about CR?
"Consumer Reports magazine, the bible for an astonishing number of car buyers with its paid subscription circulation of more than 5.7 million.
There is arguably no more influential source of automotive information than Consumer Reports. The magazine's rankings, based on its own tests, readers' opinions and crash test safety data, are feared and to some extent also cultivated by all auto makers."
The review was good, but no real new information.
Accords Rule!,
MidCow
"It starts with weight, a major enemy of fuel economy. To cut it, this hybrid has an aluminum hood and a magnesium intake manifold."
I did not know about the magnesium intake manifold used to reduce weight.....
You are right, Those two items were new to me also. Please accept my appology. I guess I was overwhelmed by their CR cudos.
Cruis'n in 6th,
MidCow
P.S.- Put the second coat of Zaino on last night and now it looks like a black mirror
"This pick was sealed when the gas-electric Accord Hybrid version earned the highest score in the family sedan category, beating out the Passat V-6, which had shared the top pick in that segment last year," CR spokesman Doug Love says. "The Hybrid delivers quicker acceleration than the V-6 Accord, but the fuel economy of the four-cylinder version. And it's really the first of a new wave of hybrids that delivers both good performance and better fuel economy than the conventional version."
troy
Hmmm, should make a really nice flare if it ever ignites (and magnesium can't be put out - it has to burn out)!
Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with your daytime contact information and vehicle year, make and model no later than Monday, March 21, 2005.
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Obviously you don't know much about jokes... or magnesium, which burns to strongly that it will continue to combust under water...
I wasn't suggesting the intake would flame, just joking about the material.
For that matter, aluminum will burn pretty well too.
Either metal takes a very high temperature to get it going...
Miles per gallon EPA City/ Highway
HAH Sedan 29/ 37
H 4I 5-speed Sedan 26/ 34
Twenty-nine(29) is greater than twenty-six (26)
and
Thirty-seven(37) is greater than thirty-four (34)
------------
For an actual comparisons right now, because of the currently small statisitical sample of HAH reported mpg and the obvious winter and break-in factors, about the only metric you can use is EPA estimates as flawed as they may or may not be.
YMMV,
MidCow
6-speed COUPE only 23.5mpg right now for me, but sometimes my right foot makes the Borla sing as I go through the gears
Good Day,
MidCow
Give a HAH to Xcel or Misterme for a week and I would bet either could get at least 40 mpg maybe 45 , 50 or even higher. They know excelelent hyper mpg techniques.
Take any car an go WOT all the time and you won't even come close to the City EPA.
See if you can find one, just one objective test of the HAH that had the goal to achieve the highest mpg instead of the highest performance and I think you will see different results. Also, in case you hadn't notices in many place it is still considered winter. Winter months with cold weather lower the mileage of any car, hybrids normal ICEs, diesels. Maybe it was unfortunate that Honda introduced the HAH in the Winter instead of late August early September when it was hot.
So in summary, it is very hard to get good mpg in winter with a lead foot.
cruis'n in 6th gear,
MidCow
I agree with you Consumer Reports is a good source and you may be right. If the 4-Cyl isn't the best it is very close. I could not find any test that CR did for the 5-speed 4 cylinder. The only test they did for the 4 cylinder was with the 5-speed automatic.
2005 Hybrid sedan, 3.0-liter V6, 5-speed automatic
CU's overall mileage, mpg 25
CU's city/highway, mpg 18/37
CU's 150-mile trip, mpg 29
2003 EX sedan, 3.0-liter V6, 5-speed automatic
CU's overall mileage, mpg 23
CU's city/highway, mpg 15/34
CU's 150-mile trip, mpg 26
2003 EX sedan, 2.4-liter Four, 5-speed automatic
CU's overall mileage, mpg 24
CU's city/highway, mpg 16/38
CU's 150-mile trip, mpg 28
Thanks for your input,
MidCow
26/34
Accord Hybrid:
29/37
So how does that make the 4-cyl MT the mileage leader?
I also question the testing done to date. In my first 4000 miles I have NEVER averaged below 28 MPG. If any reasonable amount of highway is included it usually is around 30 MPG. The best I got was 42 MPG in just highway and the worst was 26.5 (this was a forty mile test I did stomping on it regularly around town)
>> goal to achieve the highest mpg instead of the
>> highest performance and I think you will see
>> different results
That would be missing the whole point of the car.
Honda COULD have done a Prius version of the Accord - max mileage but a bit slow. They didn't design it that way - they give you the 4 banger economy (or a little) better with performance that exceeds the normal V-6 Accord. To argue back and forth if the 4 banger does or does not get better mileage just misses the point. If folks want to save money on the car and only have 4 banger performance then they can - for under $20k. If folks want the best/fastest Accord - AND still get good mileage when wailing away - then spend the extra bucks and get the hybrid.
I also don't that it really matters what you can get if you really granny around in the car trying for max mileage. Again, if you are going to drive like that then why get the most powerful and faster Accord made? Just get the cheap 4 banger and save all that money. You will have lots of money left over to pay for any extra gas it might burn.
Things that bug me:
No moonroof in the hybrid.
No stability control in any of the Accords, yet the CRV and most of the Pilots get it.
Dennis
Any recommendations?
I was also shocked that it does not come with a spare tire!!! The sales person did not realize it had no spare tire and had to go find out what was going on.
The car does have many nice amenities, but I bought a hybrid because I wanted great mileage which I'm just not getting.
EvieM
I would expect a manual tranny Accord to do better still - driven under the same conditions Unfortunately they do not make a wagon.
Regarding the EPA tests - they favor automatics and hybrids so the HAH wins that on both counts. As mentioned before in actual driving tests over identical courses the HAH is just a shade better than the 4-cyl Accord automatic. While the manual accord was not tested it would undoubtably do better than the automatic, and hence the hybrid.
Yes the hybrid is a fine car, no it is not a car to buy if you want to save money.
I still don't think a 4-cyl hybrid would have been slow as mentioned above. The non hybrid 4-cyl is plenty quick and adding the hybrid drivetrain would only make it faster. As a bonus it would be cheaper as well.
I realize Honda wanted to push the other end of the spectrum with this hybrid, but hopefully they will supplement the lineup with a 4-cyl hybrid. More cars offered is better for everybody.