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But if you wopuld have read the thread you could see he was not talking about EPA estimate, but rather the results that Consumer Reports actually achieved. While CR does not have a test of a 5-speed manual Accord I4, the do have the test of the auto which I posted just previous to you message and the HAH was only 1 mpg better than the auto I4. I think Dudley was correctly speculating that the 5-speed manual I$ would beat the HAH in CR testing.
Cheers,
MidCow
I am not sure the HAH would beat the 6-speed Honda Accord Coupe.
Stability control is nice, but it is not nearly as beneficial in a FWD as it is in a RWD. Its affects are currently being overrated in most cases, kind of like the early days of ABS.
You miseed my point, if a auto test were done to see the hifhest mpg that could be obtained the HAH would probably equal or exceed the EPA ratings. I agree it is a perfromance hybrid and the 0-60 and 1/4 mile perfomance test are also important as well a salom speed and braking diatance.
IU thought the HAH was pretty coll car, but no maula shift was offeres. I only drive manual shift cars.
YMMV,
MidCow 6-speed Borla Accord Coupe.
Some problems: The highway test is done at 48mph which is a lot slower than most folks would consider "highway speeds" - and of course no wind resistance in their test.
The other problem is that the EPA "rules" require that cars with a economy light or indicator or a shift light be "driven" in the test and obey that. So in the case of hybrids, they keep the "lamp lit" while doing th "driving" which can really inflate the figures. If you drove on the street and kept the "lamp lit" you can get quite good mileage - but if you drive a hybrid like you would a normal car - or to get the same performance you are used to, then you are not likely to get close to the EPA numbers. Folks buying the Prius are finding this out.
The Accord Hybrid is a "performance" hybrid - it is designed to give you BETTER performance than the standard V-6 sedan while giving you the mileage figures similar or better than the 4 cyl Accord. It is not designed to give the world's best mileage figures - like the Insight, the Prius, or the Civic hybrid.
If your goal is just 28mpg on the highway, I would guess any of the Accords could do that. If you compare the 4 cyl auto VS the hybrid you will see on the highway it is not that much better (3mpg) than the 4 cyl. If you can live with the performance of the 4 cyl, you can get almost as good mileage on your commutes and pay a LOT less money for the car.
If you are in stop and go commuting - with a lot fo stops, the hyrid should outperform just because it will shut off the motor when the car is stopped for a period of time. However, if you are a lead foot you will lose a lot of the savings.
If you really want to save on fuel, and don't care about performance the hyrbid would be a waste of your money.
Dennis
I find it hard to understand how so many folks didn't get that. They just wandered into the Honda dealership and said "gimme the hybrid" and drove it with a lead foot and then are mad becuase they get 25mpg or something?
If you have ever driven a car with stability control you would recognize how important it is. On FWD cars you are correct, a little less so than RWD cars - but still important.
ABS safety was never "overrated" it was simply misunderstood. When cops started getting the Impala police cars with ABS they somehow thought that is change the laws of physics. Accidents went UP rather than down. The other problem is folks would jam on the brakes, feel the ABS kick in and release the pressure thinking something is wrong. Then they would also forget they could steer the car.
From the current CR:
"Preliminary results of a NHTSA study released in September show that cars with ESC were involved in 30 percent fewer fatal single-vehicle crashes than those without and that SUVs with ESC were involved in 63 percent fewer such crashes. An IIHS study released in October 2004 found that cars and SUVs with ESC were involved in 56 percent fewer fatal single-vehicle crashes than comparable models without ESC. The IIHS estimates that ESC could save some 7,000 lives annually if all vehicles on U.S. roads had the feature"
Sounds like something that should be on the top of the line Honda sedan, doesn't it?
Dennis
Today, the car was doing better on mileage (33 mpg) than it has been. I will see if it continues to improve. I've heard that getting it broken in will make a difference and also that it will not do as well in colder weather.
I will probably keep the car for at least a year and then maybe get one with better mileage after "doing my homework."
By the way, Evie is a woman's name.
Also, this is the first time I've ever posted here. It may be the last; I'm not sure yet.
EvieM
Hello Madam:
I guess a Cadillac, a Crown Victoria or a Mercedes is best for you, a well-to-do senior citizen. The HAH is for young and middle-aged guys/ gals who love performance and a little bit extra MPG. Good luck.
Since you folks are so sarcastic and unkind, I will not be posting here in the future.
Goodbye
EvieM
We are not all heartless and sarcastic. You will find that the people that buy and advocate hybrids are somewhat elitist. As a group they make $100k to $200k per year and feel they know more than anyone on the planet. You found out the hard way as so many have that the hybrids do not achieve the numbers that EPA forecast. They can get great mileage if you want to baby them and drive slower than the rest of traffic. You would probably have done better with the 4 cylinder Accord. It is easier to get EPA mileage with the non-hybrid Accord's. Plus if emissions is an issue the 4 Cylinder Accord has a better rating than the HAH. If good mileage and a wagon is more what you need the Jetta Wagon TDI is an honest 45-50 mpg vehicle. Hopefully your HAH will get better mileage in the future. I think you have pushed it to the max at 33 mpg.
If you would have read the thread you would have noticed that I added a comment about the testing procedures and how I question them. While I did not spell it out, I was refering to how low CR's figures came in. Dudleyr mentioned real world testing but in my real world the numbers don't match.
You can compare EPA, CR and anyones elses "numbers," including mine for that matter, until you're blue in the face. It will take more time to tell for sure. It is obvious and has been stated many times that this car is impacted by seasonal issues more than most. My mileage here in AZ will likely drop when we start topping 100 degrees. Never the less it's all a simple statistical mind game at this point. Maybe if the time of year were reversed, CR's number would have been higher and I would be the one complaing that the mileage is not that good!
Try as I might I have not been able to get the low figures that CR reports. I have tried!
When you go looking for cars that get better fuel economy than your HAH on a consistent basis, it should be pretty easy because it's a short list: subcompacts like the ECHO; compacts like the Civic, Corolla, and Mazda3; a few hybrids (Prius, Civic, and Insight); and a few diesels (Golf, Jetta, Passat). To be sure you get the best fuel economy, go a manual transmission in the cars that have it--if you know how to drive one or are willing to learn how. Be aware, however, that by going with a smaller car than the Accord you are trading off some safety for a little higher fuel economy. For instance, the Accord has excellent crash test scores across the board. The only small cars that have good overall crash test scores are the Corolla and Cobalt--and they aren't as good as the Accord's.
When you go shopping for your next car, it would be a good idea to take a friend or relative with you who knows cars and can deal with the sales person on your behalf, to make sure there aren't anymore big surprises.
You seem a little bitter! I know three people in my neighborhood who have Hybrids (all different) none are elitist, make the money you quote, or act like they know more than anyone on the planet. Sounds more like someone else...
Truth is I have tried to "baby" my Accord to get better mileage and have had little success. Conversly I have tried to get bad mileage and have had little success. You're information is based on bad data or assumptions.
I also own a TDI (New Beetle) and while it does consistently get very close to its advertised mileage it is one of the highest polluting cars around. If I could find a good source for biodiesel I might be able to mitigate that but so far no luck.
As to Evie.
I truly meant no disrespect! I too have been angered on this site more than once. It is all too common in non face-to-face debate. However, one does get much more honest opinions from people this way even if they are not always factual! Best of luck to you. I honestly believe that if you stick with your HAH you will be glad you did.
For the record, I have gone back and deleted a few postings as I'm just reading through the weekend postings now.
The Hybrid Vehicles board is a great place to get information and support. I do hope you will come back. Unfortunately, we can't always control bad manners AS they happen, only after the fact.
What did I say!?!
I know one of my posts was deleted but when I reviewed it earlier I didn't think it was that bad!
MAN! I gotta stop drinking!
Anyway, I hope my apology above was adequate!
Back on topic:
HAHs RULE!
2. Where is HAH manufactured / final assembly? Marysville, Ohio or Japan or both.
Thanks.
Just remember - people come to these boards for mainly 2 reasons: Support and Information (entertainment is the third reason).
When you post, remember that not everyone is in the same situation you are in and may not have had the same experiences that you have had. Extending a welcome and supportive response is always better than "gee, how stupid were you" type postings.
Thanks.
The lined trunk is not an option than can be ordered.
It is avaiable only on the V6 EX models including the HAH, EX V6 5-speed auto Sedan, EX V6 5-speed auto Coupe and finally, but not last, the EX V6 6-speed Coupe.
It is not available on any of the DX or LX models , nor on the I4 EX models.
Thanks,
MidCow
I am close to pulling the trigger on HAH. Need to sell and buy a house first, Maybe I am not that close!
But I do have a buyer for my 5 speed EX-L (and it is not Midcow the manual shift king! :-) )
I am having an identical problem, particularly on 91.5 our local NPR station. At first I thought it was just that I live fairly far from the transmitter, but I was able to nail the crinkeling bag problem down to occuring between 1250-1500 rpm and noticed it would go away a second or so after acceleration. There is still lesser amounts of static at other speeds and RPMs, especially with the eco light on.
So it's been about a month since your last post. Have you gotten anywhere with honda regarding this issue? I have an appointment with the dealer tomorrow but will cancel if you haven't gotten anywhere with them.
Steve
Interestingly it also says 90% parts from US and Canada and 15% from Japan for "this car line" which might be including the regular Accords made in Marysville, Ohio
Honda has no solution for this yet. They did agree to reimburse me for the cost of 1 year of XM Radio subscription as a "good will offering." Not sure if that will apply in your case, but anyway if your dealer folks do some research with the Honda Tech Line people, they should find that it is a known problem.
Let us know what you find out from them.
VIN: [JHMCN365x5C0xxxxx]
1st Letter country of origin: J (Japan)
2nd Letter Manufacturer: H (Honda)
3rd Letter Vehicle Type: M (Passenger Car)
4-6 Assembly line, Body & engine type: CN3 (Accord/JNA1)
7th Letter Body & Transmission: 6 (4-Door Sedan/5-Speed Automatic)
8th Letter Vehicle Grade: 4 (V6 IMA) or 5 (V6 IMA W/NAV)
9th Letter "Check digit" ?
10th Letter Model Year : 5 (2005)
11th Letter Factory Code: C (Saitama Factory)
12-18 Serial number: 0xxxxx (U.S. Model) or 8xxxxx (Canadian Model)
Sorry for the previous informational error.
If you like good clear music and if you travel a lot is probably worth it to you. Also, in major cities there is up to the date traffic information.
The new rate does not go in effect until April 2, 2005. If you make a multi-year committment before then you can beat the rate increase. Otherwise you are looking at $12.99 per month.
crus'n in 6th,
MidCow
kirstie_h
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The trouble is a built in system is that you can't take the tuner out and use it other places. So you only get the benefit while in the car. With the plug and play tuners and car kits and home kits and boom box you can make that $10 a month (soon to be $13) go a lot farther. Not to mention the add-in dedicated tuners are very expensive - but "free" with the hybrid.
Sirius has the NFL and has signed a contract to get NASCAR in 2007. So if they can stay in business until then the should be able to increase their subscribers quite a bit (XM has 4x or more right now).
XM also had a deal where if your car came with XM you could get a special discounted rate once the free preview period was over.
To me, it is well worth the money to have tons of commercial free music all the time. I can't stand listening to plain old FM and the commercials now.
Dennis
Notice the woman who owns the Accord Hybrid. It seems it is not just the under 50 crowd who wants the latest and greatest.
The best part of the article:
"That raises the question of why someone would pay a $3,000 to $4,000 premium for a hybrid when their savings at the pump may only be marginal.
"By the time you start to save money from the fuel economy, you're really six years into it," said Robert Duronio, analyst with PricewaterhouseCoopers' Autofacts division in Detroit"
Dennis
troy
Honda batteries have a top limit of 80%. Good. No overcharging.
But Honda allows the battery to dip to 20%...typically defined as "empty" in most EVs, cellphones, etcetera. So every time you discharge your Insight or Civic or Accord to 0 bars, you're damaging the battery.
.
No wonder Honda has been forced to replace several insight batteries at 90-100,000 miles. Honda made the mistake of allowing the battery to discharge to 20%...thereby damaging it, and prematurely requiring replacement.
IMHO.
troy
Electrical Engineer
Bigger tires would likely help both of those, but it's a quantitative rating.
My question is; if we're comparing apples to apples wouldn't we have to drop the "real" numbers for the non hybrid as well? or has that already been considered I wonder.
Dennis
You're welcome!!!
Sure seems that the "hybrid battery" catches alot of flack for being the new kid on the block.
Toyota had no hesitation backing their hybrid system with a warrantee that gives peace of mind.
Railroadjames (hybrid power that works)
>> system with a warrantee that gives peace of
>> mind
Yep, but I don't see Honda doing that. Toyota offers their already longer than Honda (5/60k) powertrain warranty on the convential motor and then a longer (8/100k) on the hybrid components.
What is Honda doing? Just 3yrs/36k and that is it? I have not seen that Honda is doing anything as an extra guarantee on the new IMA stuff. I am not sure if you purchase the HondaCare warranty if this stuff is even included in THAT warranty or not.
I don't have a problem with the Accord hybrid - folks just should realize it is not the same as the Prius - it is the performance model of the Accord lineup, that gets about the same real world MPG as the 4 banger. If you drive it like the EPA tests, then you MIGHT one day get your money back you paid extra. It is even harder now since you can get a non hybrid for invoice or below a lot places and a lot of dealers want full MSRP or more for the hybrid. If you drive the car like most of us do, you will probably never get your money back. That is OK, as I like performance more than most - but just don't "preach" to everyone about your hybrid and how much money you save at the pump - because for most folks it will never, ever pay for itself.
My last two drives in the country in my S2000 I got right at 26mpg - and all were top down, VTec'ing all the time. Now that is some real world economy AND performance at the same time :-)
Dennis
You don't have all the facts! Honda's IMA components DO have an 8/80 warranty standard.
This covers:
- Battery assembly (including all internal components)
- DC-DC converter
- Motor Control Module
- Power INverter Module (including software updates)
- Motor Rotor
- Motor Stator
These are direct quotes from my 2005 Accord Hybrid warranty manual. There is a standard 3/36 on everything but there are MANY high dollar items covered at higher rates. Can't list them all here but a few examples are:
- Catalytic system 7/70
- Fuel Injection 8/80
- PCM 8/80
- Most sensors 3/50
- OBD system 8/80
- Intake systems 8/80
Additionally I have a full bumper to bumper extended factory warranty (10/100) that cost me $715.00. A more than fair price, I believe.
Incidentally as I eluded to earlier..
I have not only aleardy gotten more than my money's worth out of the satisfaction and joy of driving this amazing machine, but, I constantly find myself at the center of attention. In parking lots, gass stations (Yes, I have to go there occasionally
Vain as it may sound I get a great deal of pleasure from that as well!!!
Moved to the battery debate thread!
Some of the other stuff is emissions related - and is covered on the non-hybrid cars as well.
>> Additionally I have a full bumper to bumper
>> extended factory warranty (10/100) that cost
>> me $715.00. A more than fair price, I believe.
It must not be the real-deal HondaCare plan - honored at every Honda dealer. The longest term I have ever seen is 7yrs/100k miles. HondaCare is also not "bumper to bumper" either - unless there is some special "HondaCare for Hybrids" that is more complete that what I have on my car and motorcycles.
From the Honda page:
"WHAT IS NOT COVERED by Honda Care
Parts other than genuine HONDA or AMERICAN HONDA authorized parts; wiper blades, battery (except for the nickel-metal hydride battery in hybrid VEHICLES); cables; belts; hoses; timing belt replacement when performed as routine maintenance: exhaust system, catalytic converter; brake system wear items such as drums/rotors, shoes/pads; clutch disc, pressure plate; throw out bearing, external shift linkages; glass, mirror glass, body parts; body structure, panels; bright metal; sheet metal; paint; bumpers; moldings; lenses; bulbs (except for dashboard bulbs); sealed beams; fuses; weather-strips (except for window run channels); outside ornamentation; wheel covers/ornaments; rims: studs; fastening/securing hardware; body seals; squeaks, rattles; buttons; carpet; dash pad; window handles; knobs; rearview mirror; trim; upholstery; electronic/audio accessories and cellular telephones other than AMERICAN HONDA AUTHORIZED ELECTRONIC/AUDIO ACCESSORIES; tires; seat belts; airbag(s), and the Safety Restraint System (except for the SRS control unit and cable reel.)"
That is hardly bumper to bumper. If not real HondaCare, I hope you don't end up like those thousands of folks with "WarrantyGold" coverage who have no coverage when they went bankrupt last year. Or trying to find a dealer while on the road that will take a "brand x" warranty.
I can't see how the small hybrid badge would cause much, if any stir in public. But if you wanted attention and an Honda you should have gotten the S2000. Most folks can't believe it is a Honda! Only some other Honda drivers seem to know what it is....
I was looking into a hybrid for my wife to drive, but I think if I get her an Accord now it will be the 4 banger. While she does appreciate "enough" power she is not as lead-footed as I am and I think the less Accord should get pretty close to the same real-world mileage numbers for a lot less money. When she drives my BMW she never seems to notice it has 394hp so I am thinking the extra ponies in the hybrid would be a waste of money on her. Now if I were getting an Accord for ME to drive, I would for sure get the hybrid - not for to see if I could get 40mpg with it - but because it is the fastest Accord sedan :-)
Dennis
“I can't see how the small hybrid badge would cause much, if any stir in public. But if you wanted attention and an Honda you should have gotten the S2000. Most folks can't believe it is a Honda! Only some other Honda drivers seem to know what it is....”
OMG! What is your deal?!?
Of course I didn’t buy this car for attention! How dare you twist other people’s words you’re your negative little campaign. Again I feel like you are calling me a liar! You obviously underestimate the number of inquisitive and knowledgeable people there are out there. I literally take questions or comments everyday. I own one of these and you don’t! I don’t care what you believe or don’t. I doubt anyone else does for that matter. I speak as an owner with “real world” experience in both the product itself and the coverage. Sheesh!
Why all the bashing?!? I’m glad you like your S2000. How great for you. I was not interested in that kind of car as I already have a sports car as well as a Jeep, a truck and a VW diesel. It is an apples to oranges comparison so don’t bother! Why don’t you go post nice things about your car in an S2000 forum instead of trying to incite trouble with bad or miss-information here?
Just prior to this reply, my wife and I returned from a trip to Sedona in the Hybrid. We had a great trip in general but also got the best overall mileage we have seen yet! Our round trip was 165 miles total. On the way up with some construction slow-downs and 90% uphill, averaging 62 MPH we got 30 MPG on the trip computer. On the way back, mostly downhill (again about 90%) we averaged 68 MPH and got 49 MPG on the trip computer. Now before you start bashing my horrible trip computer I filled up before and after the trip at the same pump and let the nozzle click off automatically. I used exactly 4.209 gallons. Again the trip was 165 miles giving me an overall average of 39.2 MPG! This was normal driving though I was in cruise most of the time. I only passed a couple of big rigs on the way up otherwise no heavy accelerating.
I honestly get all giddy every time I walk into the garage and see my Accord Hybrid. I would have been pleased with the standard Accord but even after doing some modifications I still find the “little” Hybrid badge gives me the most thrill! It is a great feeling to be able to get great mileage or tromp on it and get great power both with the same car. It is a first of for sure. Someday the road will be covered with powerful hybrids and they will no doubt improve. Just as automatic transmissions and power steering has improved so will the performance hybrid. I guess it will have to withstand the critics who just can’t stand that others have the opportunity to try them first. It’s odd that there is so much negativity towards the HAH here when every other article, news spot and blog seem to praise it so highly
As do I.
hmmm - I wonder what the MPG and comfort in your S2000 would have been with 4 adults and some luggage ??