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L E X U S.
And the German automakers reliability problems in the general scheme of things after 9/11 and the tsunami:
"Just a mere bag of shells."
Ralph Cramden
20th century philosopher
Brooklyn, NY
I personally would never lease a Japanese car. I owned a '94 LS400, and it was the most reliable car I've ever driven. A little bland, but a silky cruiser that never needed anything more than age-related maintenance. If I go Japanese, I'll buy because I have confidence that it would be a relatively problem-free vehicle for 100k+. Not guaranteed, but a good possibility.
In the spirit of your above quote, my 530i is better than "briving a dus."
These cars are getting so advanced technologically that I wouldn't be surprised if some of the 2007 Lexuses and BMWs can finally do what so many of us have been asking of these carmakers for years:
"Can it core a apple?"
Apparently those people have never touched a G35 6MT, or a Lexus IS300. The Japanese have proven with THIS generation of cars, not 20 years in the future, that they can catch Germany when it comes to performance. Can Germany EVER catch Japan at ease of use and reliability? I seriously doubt it. The Acura RL set them up, and the Infiniti M45 will knock them down.
Sorry to hijack the thread
And the new generation of models from BMW will stomp 'em out like a smoldering cigarette...
I must admit the power/$ is intoxicating. How it drives is yet to be seen and how the public perceives the way it drives is yet to be seen. To bad the car is so bland.
Oh some Japanese cars are not boring on its own. NSX is NOT boring at all. Ok that's a bit off mainstream, G35/I300 are fun sure. Even TL looks hot inside out. Also, it'd take a while to be bored inside of the new RL.
What I meant earlier is that there's still this perception that Japanese car, no matter how good it is, is still not German, which got to be more spicy in some way, that less reliability is to be worth trading for. I actualy think there's truth in that. But the gap is shrinking to a point that it's more perception/image thing than essence in that myth. After all, status symbol sometimes is more about how expensive it is than how good it is.
"Make it look like GS, but put your touches into it."
Result: The worst of Lexus and BMW, and a grille that looks like a watermelon. It's horrendous.
I've always liked Infiniti. I think it is a more luxurious experience than Acura, is quite reliable (had a QX4 in the late 90's and no problems), and if I were in the market for a Japanese make I would probably pick the M over anything from Lexus.
One thing is for sure- in about 6 months we are going to have TONS of excellent choices in the 45-55k sedan market. Not a bad thing.
Is it just me, or do both the Acura RL and the new Toyota Avalon have a touch of the Bangle Butt?
Not that they look BMWish at all, overall... just that one feature..
Okay.. back to my nap
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Because ??
What does the M have that makes it so hot over the GS430 ? Certainly not looks, eh ?. First off, the GS will outrun it from a dead stop. Second, the GS is far more refined than the M can ever be. Thirdly, the GS will (probably) outhandle the M. Does the M have VDIM ? And if all that doesn't appeal to you. How about the projected re-sale value ??? Talking of a tank job, value-wise for the M...
Anyone picking the M over the GS is not bcos of the M's better performance, cos the GS is a far better car than the M... historically speaking...
I am also single, and I can tell you that the BMW brand plays well with the ladies, real well. How do I know, my friend has a 2004 530i, and another friend has a Lexus GS430. It is the BMW that gets the attention, and the oooh factor. The Lexus is a great car, and certainly has its own status, but it is not a BMW.
BMW's own the image, BABY! As George Constansa would say.
As for reliability, well the first 50,000 miles is free maintenance, so maybe things will get better. As for sales, sales are up, not down.
me: new to the topic here, but I must start by disagreeing with that. I think women are more impressed still by the classic styling of the Mercedes and the wonderful interiors of the Jag. XJ's. BMW might be 3rd in this class in initial prestige amongst people of average automotive-interest.
And take that BMW to some of the more image-concious, conspicuous consumtion areas such as Beverly Hills, Hollywood, South beach, Manhattan, ... you might be mistaken for the successful immigrant owner of a few convenient stores. ;-)
Image has always been Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche, Maserati, Ascari, Rolls, Bentley, Saleen, and a few others. And the co-kings might be Bugatti and Maybach.
Anyone picking the M over the GS is not bcos of the M's better performance, cos the GS is a far better car than the M... historically speaking..."
Are you talking about the old 2004 M or the 2006 M?
If the former, you're probably right. If the latter, you'll probably be dead wrong.
Both the M35 and the M45 will out-accelerate the GS300 and the GS430.
Both the M35 and the M45 will out-handle the GS300 and the GS430.
Refinement, I'd probably say a tie, or a slight edge to the GS.
Looks: 100% subjective. I personally prefer the M.
Resale value: If the G35 (class leading resale value) is any indication, the M will do quite well.
Nope, BMW is more like the QUEEN. MB is the KING in those regards.
This is not counting ultra-marques like Rolls, Bentley, Ferrari, etc.
Me: Really ? Let's see, BOTH will come with 5-speed slush boxes, right ? The GS3 and 4 comes with 6-speed slush boxes, with close gearing. No contest b/w these two comparos, is it ?
You: Both the M35 and the M45 will out-handle the GS300 and the GS430
Me: Is it bcos the M is based on the FM platform? Hmmmm.... The current M certainly doesn't, hence who is to say the 2006 M will, eh ? No one wants the M, hence its disappearing act in only 2 years in the NA market. I don't forsee the new M to do any better. Besides, the GS is just a better car, period, and the market has shown that, so far.
You: Resale value: If the G35 (class leading resale value) is any indication, the M will do quite well.
Me: Put down the koolade ! No Infiniti has better resale than a Lex. The only Infiniti to talk about are the G and FX, and even these are not strong in the used car market. Infiniti has ways to go to match Lexus in this area. Don't even sweat it....
So the new M45 will come with the same old, same-old 340hp 4.5L motor, with the lame 5-speed tranny. So how is this a *new* car again ? Oh, I suppose its the new design... I call it "old wine in new skin". OTOH, Lexus has three *new* engines for the GS, the 3.0L, 3.5L and the 4.6L. The GS350/460 will kill the M35/M45 when they get here to the NA market circa MY2007.
When both M45 and GS430 gets here in a couple of months, we'll see how both really stack up, won't we ? My money is on the Lexus.
The M35 will out-accelerate the GS300, and the M45 will out-accelerate the GS430. The M45 has already been clocked at 5.3s and 5.6s respectively. I doubt the GS430 will beat that.
Handling is more difficult to judge. However, I bet that reviewers generally will prefer the M handling to GS handling.
"No Infiniti has better resale than a Lex." Wrong, the G35 has better resale than the IS300.
As far as the GS350/GS460, they're not even announced yet. Infiniti may upgrade by the time they come out. Compared apples to apples. Not unannounced future cars.
Really ? So why bother to spend all that money developing 6- or 7-speed trannies, eh ? Doesn't matter. Right !
The M45 has already been clocked at 5.3s and 5.6s respectively. I doubt the GS430 will beat that.
The GS430 has also been clocked well under 6s (0-60). Add in the sixth gear (for the MY2006) and you can expect to shave off another 0.2-0.3s off that time. But, I guess we'll need more real world numbers when the cars get here. Soon enough....
Wrong, the G35 has better resale than the IS300.
Really ? Throw some numbers at me, willya ?
As far as the GS350/GS460, they're not even announced yet. Infiniti may upgrade by the time they come out. Compared apples to apples. Not unannounced future cars.
Lexus already announced the GS350 for release in Japan in August 2005. So this car is in production as we speak, not something in the future. The 4.6L engine is due for the LS and the upgraded GS. You'd expect the GS4 to not retain the *old* 4.3 motor, right ? So the *new* 4.6L is the logical replacement, and it should debut in the MY07 LS and GS4. That's only a couple years from now. Does Infiniti have plans for a higher displacement motor than their 4.5L due out in 2 years ?
I guess we'll have to wait a couple years for the 350 and the 460 then. Until then, Lexus offers the 300 and the 430 to compare to.
Go to cars.com and click on resale values. The residual of the G35 is 5-6% higher than the IS for 24, 36, 48 and 60 months.
We will see when the comparos start rolling in. Wonder if the mags are gonna do the V8 or the V6 first.
The new M is radically different. Its built on a stretched FM platform called FM-L thats been significantly tweaked and has MASSIVE rigidity increases over an already stiff G35 platform.
The M35 AWD uses Nissan's very advanced ATTESA system borrowed from Skyline GT-R. GS300 AWD, on the other hand, uses the basic electronic AWD system found on RX that has no performance backround or advantage whatsoever.
Nissan doesnt NEED new engines, they already have huge advantages over Lexus. Their 3.5L already makes more horsepower and torque than Toyota's 3.5L which wont even exist in GS for quite awhile.
Mercedes might have 7-speed gearboxes, but guess what all the AMG cars use? 5-speeds. Sure doesnt seem to hurt the CL65 or SL65 too badly.
Both the 4.5L engine (now making 335hp) and 5-speed have been significantly revised for the new car, and its going to be a MONSTER. Just like the G35, I predict multiple "10 best" placements and several comparison wins for M45. The GS is going to be good, but not good enough to take down Infiniti.
Infinti horses unfortunately don't equal BMW horses. And there are a host of comparos in every major mag that bear that out. Sure one out of 100 show the G35 beating the 330i, but most of the time they are equal with 60 more horses to the G35.
I agree that BMW horses seem a little stronger than some others, but lets be reasonable - a manual G35 sedan is pushing 100 mph in the quarter and a 330i is around 95. This is in Road & Track, Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, Better Homes & Gardens, etc.
Wasn't the 2003 and 2004 HP difference more like 35 anyway?
And doesn't the G35 weigh an extra 200 lbs?
5.3 - 5.6 seconds to 60, .90 on the skidpad (highest for a sedan ever), the BEST manumatic they have driven (C&D) etc. etc.
Kd, I agree with you that BMW horses seem to be srtonger than Infinit horses. Period.
However, in the end, if you get a faster car, does that really matter? The G35 out accelerates the 330i in almost every test. The new M45 is incredible, 0-60 in 5.3 (MT), with a slushbox. Show me one 5 Series bar the new M5 that get a time close to this.
The BMW name is a lot stronger than the Infiniti name, but even you would agree that Infiniti is doing a lot to get close to that, with new cars that are consistently going head to head with Bimmers.
I too think that the RL surely has a touch of the Bangle butt. I realized it as soon as I saw first pics.
Now, the acceleration differences are not as wide as the hp numbers would have you believe. But then part of the reason for that is that the G is a heavier, more roomy vehicle.
In fact, the G has the same amount of room as the 530i, and has almost the exact same weight as the 530i. With auto transmission, the 260hp G35 (3468 lbs) generally goes 0-60 in 6.1s and the 225hp 530i (3472 lbs) goes 0-60 in about 7.0s.
So, the G has 15% more hp, but is also 15% faster. After taking weight into account, nothing seems "magical" about BMW horses.
It'll be interesting to compare the M35 to the 255hp 530i.
Yes the G35 will slightly out-accelerate the 330i. It's got a bigger engine get's significantly worse mileage for approximately the same performance, and in some cases slower than the 330.
Mind you, I'm not saying anything negative here, but to quote:
"The reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated".
Now the the new Valvetronic engines will be out with significantly more power and better gas mileage, it should be interesting.
I too am waiting to see how the new BMW engine performs, and am thankful that the new 3er is more traditional, and not as highly stylized like the 5 & 7. To me, however, the current 3 Series is the best looking Bimmer ever, but that's just me!
And 0-60 on the new 3-series? We won't know until the magazines start testing... It is entirely possible that the 255 Hp will be as "under-rated" as the 225 Hp is now...
Not that it matters a lot.. Either the G or the 3 has plenty of oomph... I don't think either one could be described as under-powered.
regards,
kyfdx
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What does the M have that makes it so hot over the GS430 ?
Besides the history and education lessons thrown my way (lexusguy and 03accordman), here are the actual answers (summary) to my question:
Lexusguy: Its built on a stretched FM platform called FM-L thats been significantly tweaked and has MASSIVE rigidity increases over an already stiff G35 platform.
jrock: The M45 has already been clocked at 5.3s and 5.6s respectively. I doubt the GS430 will beat that.
03accordman: 5.3 - 5.6 seconds to 60, .90 on the skidpad (highest for a sedan ever), the BEST manumatic they have driven (C&D) etc. etc.
OKie dokie... At least we are getting some direct answers on comparos here. Good.
The actual comparos that the car mags do will have direct comparisons, so things will be clearer. For now, the new M's specs put it way above the GS.
Even though I find the RL to be average in styling and merely tolerable, it blows away all of the dogs in this class. Man, the cars in thread are eye poison—it hurts to look at them. The RL with all of its mediocrity is the Belle of the Ball with PERHAPS an honorable mention to the new A6, even with its fish lips.
Lastly, please spare me the eye-of-the-beholder rants. Beauty isn’t really in the eye of the beholder. It’s in the eye of the designer for all to behold. We are in a dark age of auto styling in which insidiously extreme fashion trends are afflicting all car makers. It's kind of like 60-year-old people trying to dress like teenagers.
I hated the previous A6 look for the first year and came to like it. I love the look of the new A8, but don't think it wears well on the new A6. That may change as I see more of them, but I personally prefer the look of the 5 to the new A6.
I do think the E39 5 series is amazingly beautiful and is one of the few sedans that age very well. Can't imagine it looking dated for many years.
I don't like any of the current Infiniti designs, but I've seen the M45 and believe I will love it. The G35 has grown a bit on me, but still not there. As an aside, the 5 series is much bigger than the G. Rear seat room is probably comparable to the E39, but the E60 is certainly larger. And trunk space in the 5 is much bigger when you have the full size spare in the G.
Acura's have always been a bit bland to me. Like the cars, but I see them as a little sister to Lexus. Touring cars that are ultra-reliable, luxurious inside (not of Lexus standards, but above Infiniti outside of the Q), and a vehicle that does most things pretty well but doesn't stand out in any area. The styling is simply there- not much of anything. The new RL is a little more on the edge, but still rather tame. This is not a negative, rather an observation.
Lexus? I've never not liked the look of a car (though the IS is not that attractive to me), but outside of the SC's I've never been blown away. The LS has always been a nice looking vehicle, and the ES is a camry- which is a safe design for sales. GS is a little more stylish, though I don't love the look of the new one from pictures.
ANYWAY.......long way of saying that styling is all subjective. I bet you can go back to the introduction of just about every new style and find the naysayers.
I personally think the ugliest car on earth is any Porsche. I'm sure you can find thousands who will tell you the opposite...
However, methinks many of you fans of the new M are rather too optimistic about this car and using the successes of the G/FX as a measure for the new M. Maybe you are all forgetting that the G and FX were totally new vehicles when they hit the market about 4 MY ago. So not much *baggage* with these vehicles to start with. OTOH, the M has a history of FAILURE and this is gonna be hard to shake off. Kinda like the Q45. In my crystal ball, I see the *new* M improving only marginally its market acceptability.
Not really. The 5 has 0.3 inches more combined legroom.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/bmw/5series/100477656/specs.html?- tid=edmunds.n.researchlanding.leftsidenav..8.BMW*
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/infiniti/g35/100489069/specs.html- ?tid=edmunds.n.researchlanding.leftsidenav..8.Infiniti*
"And trunk space in the 5 is much bigger when you have the full size spare in the G."
True, but the vast majority of G35 buyers do not opt for the full size spare. With a standard spare, the G's trunk is bigger.
I'm not suggesting that the G is in the 5's class; it's certainly not.
Just saying that they are similar in room and weight.
There is a room/handling tradeoff in general.
And why is the M getting a new skin after only 2 years ??? Contrast this scenario with the GS which has remained unchanged in like 6 years running. See my point?
How much of the average American public even knows it exists at all?
Exactly. And how many more are expecting the new M ? Marginally few, beyond this gallery of fans here on Edmunds and other auto chat rooms. The market for v8 luxury-performance sport cars is quite small, and at ~$45-$55K price range for the M45/GS430, the market gets even smaller. So how much *success* is anticipated for these cars ? 5-10K cars/yr ? That will be a tall order to achieve, seeing that these cars sell b/w 100 -200 cars/month currently.
'The IS350 is going to have a really tough time because the IS300 was such a bomb'.
To the contrary, the market for entry-lux sports car is HUGE, hence Lexus is doing the right thing offering a wide range of engine and model options for the IS - vert, coupe, sedan and AWD (or hybrid), and 2.5L and 3.5L. And at affordable price points too (low-mid $30K). OTOH, the M can only be purchased as a 4-four door (family) sedan, for $50K ! Apples and oranges here, my dear lexusguy.
The current M was a Nissan Cedric/Gloria that Infiniti introduced in the US market to fill the gap between the G and the Q, till the time the new M could be introduced. It was not changed because it failed in the market.
You contradict yourself when one one hand you say that the G did not have a baggage and on the other hand you say who know's what the M is. Also, how much of a hit do you think the GS was?
The G35 was a new car that did really well, and there is no reason to believe that the new M will not follow that success. People buying cars in that category are not going to think, oh, the old M was not so good, so let me not buy this one. Anyway, let's wait and see.
As for the back seat space, I don't really care what the numbers say in that regard. I sat in the back seats- with the front seats positioned as a 6' person would sit- and was uncomfortable in the G while perfectly fine in the 5. Additionally, I was unable to fit my Britax infant seat rear-facing in the G, and it fits with room to spare in the 5. If that is .3 inches difference, somebody is measuring in a way that doesn't factor in my needs.