I am not saying reliability, or CR ratings for that matter, are insignificant by any means. My point was that right now a larger-than-ever-before portion of 5 series drivers are leasing. At the very least, reliability issues become less important when leasing. Not meaningless.
I personally would never lease a Japanese car. I owned a '94 LS400, and it was the most reliable car I've ever driven. A little bland, but a silky cruiser that never needed anything more than age-related maintenance. If I go Japanese, I'll buy because I have confidence that it would be a relatively problem-free vehicle for 100k+. Not guaranteed, but a good possibility.
In the spirit of your above quote, my 530i is better than "briving a dus."
These cars are getting so advanced technologically that I wouldn't be surprised if some of the 2007 Lexuses and BMWs can finally do what so many of us have been asking of these carmakers for years:
Apparently those people have never touched a G35 6MT, or a Lexus IS300. The Japanese have proven with THIS generation of cars, not 20 years in the future, that they can catch Germany when it comes to performance. Can Germany EVER catch Japan at ease of use and reliability? I seriously doubt it. The Acura RL set them up, and the Infiniti M45 will knock them down.
And the new generation of models from BMW will stomp 'em out like a smoldering cigarette...
I must admit the power/$ is intoxicating. How it drives is yet to be seen and how the public perceives the way it drives is yet to be seen. To bad the car is so bland.
that 'boringly safe' is to be adjective to 'reliable'. See reliability is something that you don't notice it until you lose it. And when you have it you think any car should be like that.....
Oh some Japanese cars are not boring on its own. NSX is NOT boring at all. Ok that's a bit off mainstream, G35/I300 are fun sure. Even TL looks hot inside out. Also, it'd take a while to be bored inside of the new RL.
What I meant earlier is that there's still this perception that Japanese car, no matter how good it is, is still not German, which got to be more spicy in some way, that less reliability is to be worth trading for. I actualy think there's truth in that. But the gap is shrinking to a point that it's more perception/image thing than essence in that myth. After all, status symbol sometimes is more about how expensive it is than how good it is.
Don't laugh. Wouldn't be surprised if design engineers look through these threads for ideas they can then pass off as their own. If the 2007 Lexus LS premium luxury package includes an apple-coring device, I know where the idea came from.
Ahh... the usual harpings on the design of various cars. It seems that every car has its share of "ooh, that looks so sexy..." to "is that a rolling garbage can???"
I love the new look. In fact, it would have been an option for me had it been available by now....
I've always liked Infiniti. I think it is a more luxurious experience than Acura, is quite reliable (had a QX4 in the late 90's and no problems), and if I were in the market for a Japanese make I would probably pick the M over anything from Lexus.
One thing is for sure- in about 6 months we are going to have TONS of excellent choices in the 45-55k sedan market. Not a bad thing.
and if I were in the market for a Japanese make I would probably pick the M over anything from Lexus.
Because ??
What does the M have that makes it so hot over the GS430 ? Certainly not looks, eh ?. First off, the GS will outrun it from a dead stop. Second, the GS is far more refined than the M can ever be. Thirdly, the GS will (probably) outhandle the M. Does the M have VDIM ? And if all that doesn't appeal to you. How about the projected re-sale value ??? Talking of a tank job, value-wise for the M...
Anyone picking the M over the GS is not bcos of the M's better performance, cos the GS is a far better car than the M... historically speaking...
People like to bash BMW owners, why? Because they have the snob image, why? Because BMW is still the KING when it comes to image and prestige, it is a reality. Now, don't let my screen name fool you, I do not own a BMW, I currently drive a Camry. So, I am not trying to defend a purchase I made. I am stating reality.
I am also single, and I can tell you that the BMW brand plays well with the ladies, real well. How do I know, my friend has a 2004 530i, and another friend has a Lexus GS430. It is the BMW that gets the attention, and the oooh factor. The Lexus is a great car, and certainly has its own status, but it is not a BMW.
BMW's own the image, BABY! As George Constansa would say. I miss those Seinfeld episodes, glad we have reruns and DVD's.
As for reliability, well the first 50,000 miles is free maintenance, so maybe things will get better. As for sales, sales are up, not down.
me: new to the topic here, but I must start by disagreeing with that. I think women are more impressed still by the classic styling of the Mercedes and the wonderful interiors of the Jag. XJ's. BMW might be 3rd in this class in initial prestige amongst people of average automotive-interest.
And take that BMW to some of the more image-concious, conspicuous consumtion areas such as Beverly Hills, Hollywood, South beach, Manhattan, ... you might be mistaken for the successful immigrant owner of a few convenient stores. ;-)
Image has always been Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche, Maserati, Ascari, Rolls, Bentley, Saleen, and a few others. And the co-kings might be Bugatti and Maybach.
What does the M have that makes it so hot over the GS430 ? Certainly not looks, eh ?. First off, the "GS will outrun it from a dead stop. Second, the GS is far more refined than the M can ever be. Thirdly, the GS will (probably) outhandle the M. Does the M have VDIM ? And if all that doesn't appeal to you. How about the projected re-sale value ??? Talking of a tank job, value-wise for the M...
Anyone picking the M over the GS is not bcos of the M's better performance, cos the GS is a far better car than the M... historically speaking..."
Are you talking about the old 2004 M or the 2006 M?
If the former, you're probably right. If the latter, you'll probably be dead wrong.
Both the M35 and the M45 will out-accelerate the GS300 and the GS430.
Both the M35 and the M45 will out-handle the GS300 and the GS430.
Refinement, I'd probably say a tie, or a slight edge to the GS.
Looks: 100% subjective. I personally prefer the M.
Resale value: If the G35 (class leading resale value) is any indication, the M will do quite well.
Say what you want, but BMW is the KING!!! MB has become an old man's car. Lexus is to soft. BMW's are for the the rat pack type. As for Rolls, Bentley, Ferrari, well those cars are for the ridiculous rich.
BMW's image in the handling and performance is second to no one, but if you think that the general public views BMW as more prestigious than MB, you're plain wrong, whether in the U.S., Europe, or other parts of the world.
I live in an affluent retirement community. MB's are the overwhelming choice around here. LS 430's are number 2. I am one of the very few driving a BMW. One of my neighbors just got rid of his troublesome BMW 7(the only other beemer I saw here). He traded it in for a red Corvette! Your only as old as you feel.
We'll see about that. The new generation of 5 series doesnt seem two be stomping on anything other than its own to feet thanks to the one-two Active Steering and iDrive punch. How good the new 3 is remains to be seen, but I am predicting that its a "Godfather 3" just like the new 5.
How can you say that Beemer is King when Benz makes supercharged 55's with 469 hp, blown 600's with 500hp, and AMG 65's with 600 hp. There is nothing old man about that!!!
You: Both the M35 and the M45 will out-accelerate the GS300 and the GS430.
Me: Really ? Let's see, BOTH will come with 5-speed slush boxes, right ? The GS3 and 4 comes with 6-speed slush boxes, with close gearing. No contest b/w these two comparos, is it ?
You: Both the M35 and the M45 will out-handle the GS300 and the GS430
Me: Is it bcos the M is based on the FM platform? Hmmmm.... The current M certainly doesn't, hence who is to say the 2006 M will, eh ? No one wants the M, hence its disappearing act in only 2 years in the NA market. I don't forsee the new M to do any better. Besides, the GS is just a better car, period, and the market has shown that, so far.
You: Resale value: If the G35 (class leading resale value) is any indication, the M will do quite well.
Me: Put down the koolade ! No Infiniti has better resale than a Lex. The only Infiniti to talk about are the G and FX, and even these are not strong in the used car market. Infiniti has ways to go to match Lexus in this area. Don't even sweat it....
So the new M45 will come with the same old, same-old 340hp 4.5L motor, with the lame 5-speed tranny. So how is this a *new* car again ? Oh, I suppose its the new design... I call it "old wine in new skin". OTOH, Lexus has three *new* engines for the GS, the 3.0L, 3.5L and the 4.6L. The GS350/460 will kill the M35/M45 when they get here to the NA market circa MY2007.
When both M45 and GS430 gets here in a couple of months, we'll see how both really stack up, won't we ? My money is on the Lexus.
The M35 will out-accelerate the GS300, and the M45 will out-accelerate the GS430. The M45 has already been clocked at 5.3s and 5.6s respectively. I doubt the GS430 will beat that.
Handling is more difficult to judge. However, I bet that reviewers generally will prefer the M handling to GS handling.
"No Infiniti has better resale than a Lex." Wrong, the G35 has better resale than the IS300.
As far as the GS350/GS460, they're not even announced yet. Infiniti may upgrade by the time they come out. Compared apples to apples. Not unannounced future cars.
Really ? So why bother to spend all that money developing 6- or 7-speed trannies, eh ? Doesn't matter. Right !
The M45 has already been clocked at 5.3s and 5.6s respectively. I doubt the GS430 will beat that.
The GS430 has also been clocked well under 6s (0-60). Add in the sixth gear (for the MY2006) and you can expect to shave off another 0.2-0.3s off that time. But, I guess we'll need more real world numbers when the cars get here. Soon enough....
Wrong, the G35 has better resale than the IS300.
Really ? Throw some numbers at me, willya ?
As far as the GS350/GS460, they're not even announced yet. Infiniti may upgrade by the time they come out. Compared apples to apples. Not unannounced future cars.
Lexus already announced the GS350 for release in Japan in August 2005. So this car is in production as we speak, not something in the future. The 4.6L engine is due for the LS and the upgraded GS. You'd expect the GS4 to not retain the *old* 4.3 motor, right ? So the *new* 4.6L is the logical replacement, and it should debut in the MY07 LS and GS4. That's only a couple years from now. Does Infiniti have plans for a higher displacement motor than their 4.5L due out in 2 years ?
kyfdx, you are quite right in you remark, in my opinion. Also, the exterior style of all of the sporty Alfa Romeo new series (don't forget other European cars) has even more touches of the Bangle Butt: in fact, they look like as clearly inspired by it! May be we all must wait for another one year or so to see more and more of these Bangle-inspired-but-not-acknowledged 'intercontextualities' erupting in many other car brands. May be not. The style that is to be seen nowadays in the majority of the cars was only a tendency pointed by very few of them some years ago. There are people that follow the trend, others anticipate it. Everyone is O.K. because life is diversity. But I now thank BMW for taking risks instead of follow the path.
Ok bud, you need to read up a lot more on the new M before you bash it so much. The old M got to us very late in its life cycle, and was stop gap measure, basically a Q45 with a body swap.
The new M is radically different. Its built on a stretched FM platform called FM-L thats been significantly tweaked and has MASSIVE rigidity increases over an already stiff G35 platform.
The M35 AWD uses Nissan's very advanced ATTESA system borrowed from Skyline GT-R. GS300 AWD, on the other hand, uses the basic electronic AWD system found on RX that has no performance backround or advantage whatsoever.
Nissan doesnt NEED new engines, they already have huge advantages over Lexus. Their 3.5L already makes more horsepower and torque than Toyota's 3.5L which wont even exist in GS for quite awhile.
Mercedes might have 7-speed gearboxes, but guess what all the AMG cars use? 5-speeds. Sure doesnt seem to hurt the CL65 or SL65 too badly.
Both the 4.5L engine (now making 335hp) and 5-speed have been significantly revised for the new car, and its going to be a MONSTER. Just like the G35, I predict multiple "10 best" placements and several comparison wins for M45. The GS is going to be good, but not good enough to take down Infiniti.
"Both the 4.5L engine (now making 335hp) and 5-speed have been significantly revised for the new car, and its going to be a MONSTER. Just like the G35,"
Infinti horses unfortunately don't equal BMW horses. And there are a host of comparos in every major mag that bear that out. Sure one out of 100 show the G35 beating the 330i, but most of the time they are equal with 60 more horses to the G35.
One out of 100? I am not sure I have ever seen a comparison where a 330 was faster than a G35. In fact, last night I was looking over a Road & Track from a couple of years ago where an automatic G35 was slightly faster than a manual 330i.
I agree that BMW horses seem a little stronger than some others, but lets be reasonable - a manual G35 sedan is pushing 100 mph in the quarter and a 330i is around 95. This is in Road & Track, Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, Better Homes & Gardens, etc.
Wasn't the 2003 and 2004 HP difference more like 35 anyway?
Lexusguy, oac seems to be in 2004, that's why he's totally oblivious to the new M. Rather than going on and on and trying to educate him, just refer him to Car and Driver, Road and Track or Motor Trend.
5.3 - 5.6 seconds to 60, .90 on the skidpad (highest for a sedan ever), the BEST manumatic they have driven (C&D) etc. etc.
"Infinti horses unfortunately don't equal BMW horses. And there are a host of comparos in every major mag that bear that out. Sure one out of 100 show the G35 beating the 330i, but most of the time they are equal with 60 more horses to the G35"
Kd, I agree with you that BMW horses seem to be srtonger than Infinit horses. Period.
However, in the end, if you get a faster car, does that really matter? The G35 out accelerates the 330i in almost every test. The new M45 is incredible, 0-60 in 5.3 (MT), with a slushbox. Show me one 5 Series bar the new M5 that get a time close to this.
The BMW name is a lot stronger than the Infiniti name, but even you would agree that Infiniti is doing a lot to get close to that, with new cars that are consistently going head to head with Bimmers.
Sure, one out of 100. The 260hp G35 was slightly faster than the 330i in almost every comparo I've read. Now that the G is 280hp, the gap widens. The gap will narrow when the 255hp 330i comes out.
Now, the acceleration differences are not as wide as the hp numbers would have you believe. But then part of the reason for that is that the G is a heavier, more roomy vehicle.
In fact, the G has the same amount of room as the 530i, and has almost the exact same weight as the 530i. With auto transmission, the 260hp G35 (3468 lbs) generally goes 0-60 in 6.1s and the 225hp 530i (3472 lbs) goes 0-60 in about 7.0s.
So, the G has 15% more hp, but is also 15% faster. After taking weight into account, nothing seems "magical" about BMW horses.
It'll be interesting to compare the M35 to the 255hp 530i.
The 545 got close to 5 seconds in one test I ran across. But I agree we're talking an amount that is not substantial.
Yes the G35 will slightly out-accelerate the 330i. It's got a bigger engine get's significantly worse mileage for approximately the same performance, and in some cases slower than the 330.
Mind you, I'm not saying anything negative here, but to quote:
"The reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated".
Now the the new Valvetronic engines will be out with significantly more power and better gas mileage, it should be interesting.
Yeah, but as jrock pointed out, the G is a bigger car than the 3 er.
I too am waiting to see how the new BMW engine performs, and am thankful that the new 3er is more traditional, and not as highly stylized like the 5 & 7. To me, however, the current 3 Series is the best looking Bimmer ever, but that's just me!
From what I've seen BMW's revised 3.0L doesnt seem to make much of a difference in the 0-60, despite 30 or so extra horses. Perhaps this is because the 3 series has "bulked up" to be closer in size to its Japanese rivals. For '05, you'd have to be in an M3 to outrun a G35 6MT.
No more discussion on which car gets the girls.. Geez.. BMW owners put up with enough grief, without claiming that...
And 0-60 on the new 3-series? We won't know until the magazines start testing... It is entirely possible that the 255 Hp will be as "under-rated" as the 225 Hp is now...
Not that it matters a lot.. Either the G or the 3 has plenty of oomph... I don't think either one could be described as under-powered.
What does the M have that makes it so hot over the GS430 ?
Besides the history and education lessons thrown my way (lexusguy and 03accordman), here are the actual answers (summary) to my question:
Lexusguy: Its built on a stretched FM platform called FM-L thats been significantly tweaked and has MASSIVE rigidity increases over an already stiff G35 platform.
jrock: The M45 has already been clocked at 5.3s and 5.6s respectively. I doubt the GS430 will beat that.
03accordman: 5.3 - 5.6 seconds to 60, .90 on the skidpad (highest for a sedan ever), the BEST manumatic they have driven (C&D) etc. etc.
OKie dokie... At least we are getting some direct answers on comparos here. Good.
Lots of “Bangle” motifs are stolen from other cars. The “Bangle Butts” originate with Honda and Chrysler, namely an earlier generation Accord, original TL, previous generations of Cirrus and Stratus etc. He merely took those trunk lids and expanded on them took them to new heights in ugliness. So don’t call the RL butt “banglized” because Honda/Acura had the look first. Futhermore, the RL butt is w-a-a-a-y more balanced than any Bangle abomination. The RL tail lamps are very shapely and the trunk lid is reserved.
Even though I find the RL to be average in styling and merely tolerable, it blows away all of the dogs in this class. Man, the cars in thread are eye poison—it hurts to look at them. The RL with all of its mediocrity is the Belle of the Ball with PERHAPS an honorable mention to the new A6, even with its fish lips.
Lastly, please spare me the eye-of-the-beholder rants. Beauty isn’t really in the eye of the beholder. It’s in the eye of the designer for all to behold. We are in a dark age of auto styling in which insidiously extreme fashion trends are afflicting all car makers. It's kind of like 60-year-old people trying to dress like teenagers.
I didn't like the new 5 when it came out- now I drive one. The design REALLY grew on me over the past year to where I now believe it is striking.
I hated the previous A6 look for the first year and came to like it. I love the look of the new A8, but don't think it wears well on the new A6. That may change as I see more of them, but I personally prefer the look of the 5 to the new A6.
I do think the E39 5 series is amazingly beautiful and is one of the few sedans that age very well. Can't imagine it looking dated for many years.
I don't like any of the current Infiniti designs, but I've seen the M45 and believe I will love it. The G35 has grown a bit on me, but still not there. As an aside, the 5 series is much bigger than the G. Rear seat room is probably comparable to the E39, but the E60 is certainly larger. And trunk space in the 5 is much bigger when you have the full size spare in the G.
Acura's have always been a bit bland to me. Like the cars, but I see them as a little sister to Lexus. Touring cars that are ultra-reliable, luxurious inside (not of Lexus standards, but above Infiniti outside of the Q), and a vehicle that does most things pretty well but doesn't stand out in any area. The styling is simply there- not much of anything. The new RL is a little more on the edge, but still rather tame. This is not a negative, rather an observation.
Lexus? I've never not liked the look of a car (though the IS is not that attractive to me), but outside of the SC's I've never been blown away. The LS has always been a nice looking vehicle, and the ES is a camry- which is a safe design for sales. GS is a little more stylish, though I don't love the look of the new one from pictures.
ANYWAY.......long way of saying that styling is all subjective. I bet you can go back to the introduction of just about every new style and find the naysayers.
I personally think the ugliest car on earth is any Porsche. I'm sure you can find thousands who will tell you the opposite...
I was simply providing a summary, not that I agree with these points tho'. But you are right, we'll get the side-by-side comparo soon enough and we'll see how they all stack up.
However, methinks many of you fans of the new M are rather too optimistic about this car and using the successes of the G/FX as a measure for the new M. Maybe you are all forgetting that the G and FX were totally new vehicles when they hit the market about 4 MY ago. So not much *baggage* with these vehicles to start with. OTOH, the M has a history of FAILURE and this is gonna be hard to shake off. Kinda like the Q45. In my crystal ball, I see the *new* M improving only marginally its market acceptability.
Its not exactly the same situation. The Q45 is a 15 years running failure. The M was with us for about 2 years. How much of the average American public even knows it exists at all? The Lexus IS300 is very similar to the old M45, its a car that we got mid cycle, and it failed in the market place. Yet I dont see you saying 'The IS350 is going to have a really tough time because the IS300 was such a bomb'.
Part of the reason why I don't think the M will beat the 5 in handling. The M is a roomier, heavier car. It is 400 pounds heavier than the 5. That's like lugging around Shaq AND his wife around all the time.
Its not exactly the same situation. The Q45 is a 15 years running failure. The M was with us for about 2 years
And why is the M getting a new skin after only 2 years ??? Contrast this scenario with the GS which has remained unchanged in like 6 years running. See my point?
How much of the average American public even knows it exists at all?
Exactly. And how many more are expecting the new M ? Marginally few, beyond this gallery of fans here on Edmunds and other auto chat rooms. The market for v8 luxury-performance sport cars is quite small, and at ~$45-$55K price range for the M45/GS430, the market gets even smaller. So how much *success* is anticipated for these cars ? 5-10K cars/yr ? That will be a tall order to achieve, seeing that these cars sell b/w 100 -200 cars/month currently.
'The IS350 is going to have a really tough time because the IS300 was such a bomb'.
To the contrary, the market for entry-lux sports car is HUGE, hence Lexus is doing the right thing offering a wide range of engine and model options for the IS - vert, coupe, sedan and AWD (or hybrid), and 2.5L and 3.5L. And at affordable price points too (low-mid $30K). OTOH, the M can only be purchased as a 4-four door (family) sedan, for $50K ! Apples and oranges here, my dear lexusguy.
"And why is the M getting a new skin after only 2 years ???"
The current M was a Nissan Cedric/Gloria that Infiniti introduced in the US market to fill the gap between the G and the Q, till the time the new M could be introduced. It was not changed because it failed in the market.
You contradict yourself when one one hand you say that the G did not have a baggage and on the other hand you say who know's what the M is. Also, how much of a hit do you think the GS was?
The G35 was a new car that did really well, and there is no reason to believe that the new M will not follow that success. People buying cars in that category are not going to think, oh, the old M was not so good, so let me not buy this one. Anyway, let's wait and see.
I was briefly considering the G35, and I found exactly ONE G without the full size spare here in NJ. Compared to hundreds of G's with the full size. Not sure where you live, but my experience in the NE was that the G35 was almost impossible to find with the premium package and no full size spare.
As for the back seat space, I don't really care what the numbers say in that regard. I sat in the back seats- with the front seats positioned as a 6' person would sit- and was uncomfortable in the G while perfectly fine in the 5. Additionally, I was unable to fit my Britax infant seat rear-facing in the G, and it fits with room to spare in the 5. If that is .3 inches difference, somebody is measuring in a way that doesn't factor in my needs.
Comments
L E X U S.
And the German automakers reliability problems in the general scheme of things after 9/11 and the tsunami:
"Just a mere bag of shells."
Ralph Cramden
20th century philosopher
Brooklyn, NY
I personally would never lease a Japanese car. I owned a '94 LS400, and it was the most reliable car I've ever driven. A little bland, but a silky cruiser that never needed anything more than age-related maintenance. If I go Japanese, I'll buy because I have confidence that it would be a relatively problem-free vehicle for 100k+. Not guaranteed, but a good possibility.
In the spirit of your above quote, my 530i is better than "briving a dus."
These cars are getting so advanced technologically that I wouldn't be surprised if some of the 2007 Lexuses and BMWs can finally do what so many of us have been asking of these carmakers for years:
"Can it core a apple?"
Apparently those people have never touched a G35 6MT, or a Lexus IS300. The Japanese have proven with THIS generation of cars, not 20 years in the future, that they can catch Germany when it comes to performance. Can Germany EVER catch Japan at ease of use and reliability? I seriously doubt it. The Acura RL set them up, and the Infiniti M45 will knock them down.
Sorry to hijack the thread
And the new generation of models from BMW will stomp 'em out like a smoldering cigarette...
I must admit the power/$ is intoxicating. How it drives is yet to be seen and how the public perceives the way it drives is yet to be seen. To bad the car is so bland.
Oh some Japanese cars are not boring on its own. NSX is NOT boring at all. Ok that's a bit off mainstream, G35/I300 are fun sure. Even TL looks hot inside out. Also, it'd take a while to be bored inside of the new RL.
What I meant earlier is that there's still this perception that Japanese car, no matter how good it is, is still not German, which got to be more spicy in some way, that less reliability is to be worth trading for. I actualy think there's truth in that. But the gap is shrinking to a point that it's more perception/image thing than essence in that myth. After all, status symbol sometimes is more about how expensive it is than how good it is.
"Make it look like GS, but put your touches into it."
Result: The worst of Lexus and BMW, and a grille that looks like a watermelon. It's horrendous.
I've always liked Infiniti. I think it is a more luxurious experience than Acura, is quite reliable (had a QX4 in the late 90's and no problems), and if I were in the market for a Japanese make I would probably pick the M over anything from Lexus.
One thing is for sure- in about 6 months we are going to have TONS of excellent choices in the 45-55k sedan market. Not a bad thing.
Is it just me, or do both the Acura RL and the new Toyota Avalon have a touch of the Bangle Butt?
Not that they look BMWish at all, overall... just that one feature..
Okay.. back to my nap
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Because ??
What does the M have that makes it so hot over the GS430 ? Certainly not looks, eh ?. First off, the GS will outrun it from a dead stop. Second, the GS is far more refined than the M can ever be. Thirdly, the GS will (probably) outhandle the M. Does the M have VDIM ? And if all that doesn't appeal to you. How about the projected re-sale value ??? Talking of a tank job, value-wise for the M...
Anyone picking the M over the GS is not bcos of the M's better performance, cos the GS is a far better car than the M... historically speaking...
I am also single, and I can tell you that the BMW brand plays well with the ladies, real well. How do I know, my friend has a 2004 530i, and another friend has a Lexus GS430. It is the BMW that gets the attention, and the oooh factor. The Lexus is a great car, and certainly has its own status, but it is not a BMW.
BMW's own the image, BABY! As George Constansa would say.
As for reliability, well the first 50,000 miles is free maintenance, so maybe things will get better. As for sales, sales are up, not down.
me: new to the topic here, but I must start by disagreeing with that. I think women are more impressed still by the classic styling of the Mercedes and the wonderful interiors of the Jag. XJ's. BMW might be 3rd in this class in initial prestige amongst people of average automotive-interest.
And take that BMW to some of the more image-concious, conspicuous consumtion areas such as Beverly Hills, Hollywood, South beach, Manhattan, ... you might be mistaken for the successful immigrant owner of a few convenient stores. ;-)
Image has always been Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche, Maserati, Ascari, Rolls, Bentley, Saleen, and a few others. And the co-kings might be Bugatti and Maybach.
Anyone picking the M over the GS is not bcos of the M's better performance, cos the GS is a far better car than the M... historically speaking..."
Are you talking about the old 2004 M or the 2006 M?
If the former, you're probably right. If the latter, you'll probably be dead wrong.
Both the M35 and the M45 will out-accelerate the GS300 and the GS430.
Both the M35 and the M45 will out-handle the GS300 and the GS430.
Refinement, I'd probably say a tie, or a slight edge to the GS.
Looks: 100% subjective. I personally prefer the M.
Resale value: If the G35 (class leading resale value) is any indication, the M will do quite well.
Nope, BMW is more like the QUEEN. MB is the KING in those regards.
This is not counting ultra-marques like Rolls, Bentley, Ferrari, etc.
Me: Really ? Let's see, BOTH will come with 5-speed slush boxes, right ? The GS3 and 4 comes with 6-speed slush boxes, with close gearing. No contest b/w these two comparos, is it ?
You: Both the M35 and the M45 will out-handle the GS300 and the GS430
Me: Is it bcos the M is based on the FM platform? Hmmmm.... The current M certainly doesn't, hence who is to say the 2006 M will, eh ? No one wants the M, hence its disappearing act in only 2 years in the NA market. I don't forsee the new M to do any better. Besides, the GS is just a better car, period, and the market has shown that, so far.
You: Resale value: If the G35 (class leading resale value) is any indication, the M will do quite well.
Me: Put down the koolade ! No Infiniti has better resale than a Lex. The only Infiniti to talk about are the G and FX, and even these are not strong in the used car market. Infiniti has ways to go to match Lexus in this area. Don't even sweat it....
So the new M45 will come with the same old, same-old 340hp 4.5L motor, with the lame 5-speed tranny. So how is this a *new* car again ? Oh, I suppose its the new design... I call it "old wine in new skin". OTOH, Lexus has three *new* engines for the GS, the 3.0L, 3.5L and the 4.6L. The GS350/460 will kill the M35/M45 when they get here to the NA market circa MY2007.
When both M45 and GS430 gets here in a couple of months, we'll see how both really stack up, won't we ? My money is on the Lexus.
The M35 will out-accelerate the GS300, and the M45 will out-accelerate the GS430. The M45 has already been clocked at 5.3s and 5.6s respectively. I doubt the GS430 will beat that.
Handling is more difficult to judge. However, I bet that reviewers generally will prefer the M handling to GS handling.
"No Infiniti has better resale than a Lex." Wrong, the G35 has better resale than the IS300.
As far as the GS350/GS460, they're not even announced yet. Infiniti may upgrade by the time they come out. Compared apples to apples. Not unannounced future cars.
Really ? So why bother to spend all that money developing 6- or 7-speed trannies, eh ? Doesn't matter. Right !
The M45 has already been clocked at 5.3s and 5.6s respectively. I doubt the GS430 will beat that.
The GS430 has also been clocked well under 6s (0-60). Add in the sixth gear (for the MY2006) and you can expect to shave off another 0.2-0.3s off that time. But, I guess we'll need more real world numbers when the cars get here. Soon enough....
Wrong, the G35 has better resale than the IS300.
Really ? Throw some numbers at me, willya ?
As far as the GS350/GS460, they're not even announced yet. Infiniti may upgrade by the time they come out. Compared apples to apples. Not unannounced future cars.
Lexus already announced the GS350 for release in Japan in August 2005. So this car is in production as we speak, not something in the future. The 4.6L engine is due for the LS and the upgraded GS. You'd expect the GS4 to not retain the *old* 4.3 motor, right ? So the *new* 4.6L is the logical replacement, and it should debut in the MY07 LS and GS4. That's only a couple years from now. Does Infiniti have plans for a higher displacement motor than their 4.5L due out in 2 years ?
I guess we'll have to wait a couple years for the 350 and the 460 then. Until then, Lexus offers the 300 and the 430 to compare to.
Go to cars.com and click on resale values. The residual of the G35 is 5-6% higher than the IS for 24, 36, 48 and 60 months.
We will see when the comparos start rolling in. Wonder if the mags are gonna do the V8 or the V6 first.
The new M is radically different. Its built on a stretched FM platform called FM-L thats been significantly tweaked and has MASSIVE rigidity increases over an already stiff G35 platform.
The M35 AWD uses Nissan's very advanced ATTESA system borrowed from Skyline GT-R. GS300 AWD, on the other hand, uses the basic electronic AWD system found on RX that has no performance backround or advantage whatsoever.
Nissan doesnt NEED new engines, they already have huge advantages over Lexus. Their 3.5L already makes more horsepower and torque than Toyota's 3.5L which wont even exist in GS for quite awhile.
Mercedes might have 7-speed gearboxes, but guess what all the AMG cars use? 5-speeds. Sure doesnt seem to hurt the CL65 or SL65 too badly.
Both the 4.5L engine (now making 335hp) and 5-speed have been significantly revised for the new car, and its going to be a MONSTER. Just like the G35, I predict multiple "10 best" placements and several comparison wins for M45. The GS is going to be good, but not good enough to take down Infiniti.
Infinti horses unfortunately don't equal BMW horses. And there are a host of comparos in every major mag that bear that out. Sure one out of 100 show the G35 beating the 330i, but most of the time they are equal with 60 more horses to the G35.
I agree that BMW horses seem a little stronger than some others, but lets be reasonable - a manual G35 sedan is pushing 100 mph in the quarter and a 330i is around 95. This is in Road & Track, Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, Better Homes & Gardens, etc.
Wasn't the 2003 and 2004 HP difference more like 35 anyway?
And doesn't the G35 weigh an extra 200 lbs?
5.3 - 5.6 seconds to 60, .90 on the skidpad (highest for a sedan ever), the BEST manumatic they have driven (C&D) etc. etc.
Kd, I agree with you that BMW horses seem to be srtonger than Infinit horses. Period.
However, in the end, if you get a faster car, does that really matter? The G35 out accelerates the 330i in almost every test. The new M45 is incredible, 0-60 in 5.3 (MT), with a slushbox. Show me one 5 Series bar the new M5 that get a time close to this.
The BMW name is a lot stronger than the Infiniti name, but even you would agree that Infiniti is doing a lot to get close to that, with new cars that are consistently going head to head with Bimmers.
I too think that the RL surely has a touch of the Bangle butt. I realized it as soon as I saw first pics.
Now, the acceleration differences are not as wide as the hp numbers would have you believe. But then part of the reason for that is that the G is a heavier, more roomy vehicle.
In fact, the G has the same amount of room as the 530i, and has almost the exact same weight as the 530i. With auto transmission, the 260hp G35 (3468 lbs) generally goes 0-60 in 6.1s and the 225hp 530i (3472 lbs) goes 0-60 in about 7.0s.
So, the G has 15% more hp, but is also 15% faster. After taking weight into account, nothing seems "magical" about BMW horses.
It'll be interesting to compare the M35 to the 255hp 530i.
Yes the G35 will slightly out-accelerate the 330i. It's got a bigger engine get's significantly worse mileage for approximately the same performance, and in some cases slower than the 330.
Mind you, I'm not saying anything negative here, but to quote:
"The reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated".
Now the the new Valvetronic engines will be out with significantly more power and better gas mileage, it should be interesting.
I too am waiting to see how the new BMW engine performs, and am thankful that the new 3er is more traditional, and not as highly stylized like the 5 & 7. To me, however, the current 3 Series is the best looking Bimmer ever, but that's just me!
And 0-60 on the new 3-series? We won't know until the magazines start testing... It is entirely possible that the 255 Hp will be as "under-rated" as the 225 Hp is now...
Not that it matters a lot.. Either the G or the 3 has plenty of oomph... I don't think either one could be described as under-powered.
regards,
kyfdx
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What does the M have that makes it so hot over the GS430 ?
Besides the history and education lessons thrown my way (lexusguy and 03accordman), here are the actual answers (summary) to my question:
Lexusguy: Its built on a stretched FM platform called FM-L thats been significantly tweaked and has MASSIVE rigidity increases over an already stiff G35 platform.
jrock: The M45 has already been clocked at 5.3s and 5.6s respectively. I doubt the GS430 will beat that.
03accordman: 5.3 - 5.6 seconds to 60, .90 on the skidpad (highest for a sedan ever), the BEST manumatic they have driven (C&D) etc. etc.
OKie dokie... At least we are getting some direct answers on comparos here. Good.
The actual comparos that the car mags do will have direct comparisons, so things will be clearer. For now, the new M's specs put it way above the GS.
Even though I find the RL to be average in styling and merely tolerable, it blows away all of the dogs in this class. Man, the cars in thread are eye poison—it hurts to look at them. The RL with all of its mediocrity is the Belle of the Ball with PERHAPS an honorable mention to the new A6, even with its fish lips.
Lastly, please spare me the eye-of-the-beholder rants. Beauty isn’t really in the eye of the beholder. It’s in the eye of the designer for all to behold. We are in a dark age of auto styling in which insidiously extreme fashion trends are afflicting all car makers. It's kind of like 60-year-old people trying to dress like teenagers.
I hated the previous A6 look for the first year and came to like it. I love the look of the new A8, but don't think it wears well on the new A6. That may change as I see more of them, but I personally prefer the look of the 5 to the new A6.
I do think the E39 5 series is amazingly beautiful and is one of the few sedans that age very well. Can't imagine it looking dated for many years.
I don't like any of the current Infiniti designs, but I've seen the M45 and believe I will love it. The G35 has grown a bit on me, but still not there. As an aside, the 5 series is much bigger than the G. Rear seat room is probably comparable to the E39, but the E60 is certainly larger. And trunk space in the 5 is much bigger when you have the full size spare in the G.
Acura's have always been a bit bland to me. Like the cars, but I see them as a little sister to Lexus. Touring cars that are ultra-reliable, luxurious inside (not of Lexus standards, but above Infiniti outside of the Q), and a vehicle that does most things pretty well but doesn't stand out in any area. The styling is simply there- not much of anything. The new RL is a little more on the edge, but still rather tame. This is not a negative, rather an observation.
Lexus? I've never not liked the look of a car (though the IS is not that attractive to me), but outside of the SC's I've never been blown away. The LS has always been a nice looking vehicle, and the ES is a camry- which is a safe design for sales. GS is a little more stylish, though I don't love the look of the new one from pictures.
ANYWAY.......long way of saying that styling is all subjective. I bet you can go back to the introduction of just about every new style and find the naysayers.
I personally think the ugliest car on earth is any Porsche. I'm sure you can find thousands who will tell you the opposite...
However, methinks many of you fans of the new M are rather too optimistic about this car and using the successes of the G/FX as a measure for the new M. Maybe you are all forgetting that the G and FX were totally new vehicles when they hit the market about 4 MY ago. So not much *baggage* with these vehicles to start with. OTOH, the M has a history of FAILURE and this is gonna be hard to shake off. Kinda like the Q45. In my crystal ball, I see the *new* M improving only marginally its market acceptability.
Not really. The 5 has 0.3 inches more combined legroom.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/bmw/5series/100477656/specs.html?- tid=edmunds.n.researchlanding.leftsidenav..8.BMW*
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/infiniti/g35/100489069/specs.html- ?tid=edmunds.n.researchlanding.leftsidenav..8.Infiniti*
"And trunk space in the 5 is much bigger when you have the full size spare in the G."
True, but the vast majority of G35 buyers do not opt for the full size spare. With a standard spare, the G's trunk is bigger.
I'm not suggesting that the G is in the 5's class; it's certainly not.
Just saying that they are similar in room and weight.
There is a room/handling tradeoff in general.
And why is the M getting a new skin after only 2 years ??? Contrast this scenario with the GS which has remained unchanged in like 6 years running. See my point?
How much of the average American public even knows it exists at all?
Exactly. And how many more are expecting the new M ? Marginally few, beyond this gallery of fans here on Edmunds and other auto chat rooms. The market for v8 luxury-performance sport cars is quite small, and at ~$45-$55K price range for the M45/GS430, the market gets even smaller. So how much *success* is anticipated for these cars ? 5-10K cars/yr ? That will be a tall order to achieve, seeing that these cars sell b/w 100 -200 cars/month currently.
'The IS350 is going to have a really tough time because the IS300 was such a bomb'.
To the contrary, the market for entry-lux sports car is HUGE, hence Lexus is doing the right thing offering a wide range of engine and model options for the IS - vert, coupe, sedan and AWD (or hybrid), and 2.5L and 3.5L. And at affordable price points too (low-mid $30K). OTOH, the M can only be purchased as a 4-four door (family) sedan, for $50K ! Apples and oranges here, my dear lexusguy.
The current M was a Nissan Cedric/Gloria that Infiniti introduced in the US market to fill the gap between the G and the Q, till the time the new M could be introduced. It was not changed because it failed in the market.
You contradict yourself when one one hand you say that the G did not have a baggage and on the other hand you say who know's what the M is. Also, how much of a hit do you think the GS was?
The G35 was a new car that did really well, and there is no reason to believe that the new M will not follow that success. People buying cars in that category are not going to think, oh, the old M was not so good, so let me not buy this one. Anyway, let's wait and see.
As for the back seat space, I don't really care what the numbers say in that regard. I sat in the back seats- with the front seats positioned as a 6' person would sit- and was uncomfortable in the G while perfectly fine in the 5. Additionally, I was unable to fit my Britax infant seat rear-facing in the G, and it fits with room to spare in the 5. If that is .3 inches difference, somebody is measuring in a way that doesn't factor in my needs.