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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "The skidpad is the result of wide tires and nothing else."


    Gosh, is it so difficult for you when a non-BMW gets good reviews? Does it always turn have to turn into "but, BMW is better..."? Take the BEST EVER skidpad numbers for what it's worth. And FYI, wide tires help, but it's not the ONLY thing that make good skidpad runs.


    "Infiniti has a history of being all over the place with their horses."


    Even if true, so what, who cares, and what does it have to do with the fact that the M45 got 5.3s 0 to 60?


    "I believe I've read where the 545 clocked close to 5 secs, like 5.1 or thereabouts."


    To my knowledge, the best ever 0-60 time for a stock 545i was 5.3s, also from R&T.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 3,097
    The "best" car is the one you BUY! Only YOU can define "best." That's why my brand spankin' new TL is better than all the other cars I didn't buy...

    '13 Jaguar XF, possibly my favorite of all the cars I've owned. But, my '09 Jag XK was a beauty, as was my '05 Acura TL, '88 Acura Integra, '84 Mitsubishi Mirage Turbo & '78 VW Scirocco (my first!). And, of course, the '92 Nissan Sentra SE-R and '95 Saab 900s I bought for the ex... Ok, I like a lot of the cars in my life.

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "Actually the 545 is in a class by itself and dusts the others cars."


    And you can fly, and pixies grant magical wishes! Saying it doesnt make it true. The 540i left VERY big shoes to fill, and the 545 does not fill them.
  • jkingjking Posts: 12
    After an thorough evaluation (long test-drive and research) of the RL, I was disappointed with the following:


    -Stiff ride, not as comfortable as old RL

    -6 cyl torque with 8 cyl fuel consumption

    -Considering the cost, why no hydraulic hood

     struts ?

    -The seats do not look or feel as substantial as

     those in a 5 or E class


    The price is too close to a 545 and the actual vehicle too reminiscent of an Accord. I'm sure it will be a Maytag in terms of reliability, but it should not be compared to a BMW, in terms of driving dynamics, prestige etc..


    Not unlike the GS, great reliability and dealer experience, but confused about whether it wants to be a sports-sedan, or a luxury sedan, with an interior that screams "Toyota" (switches, buttons and turn-signal stalk lifted out of a Camry).


    BMW 5 series was, and is the benchmark, as much as it hurts those who try to justify their budgetary constraints, by comparing lesser pretenders with the class-leader.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Oh Gimmee a break! Budgetary constraints? Please spare me. Many of us have bought or are thinking of buying $60,000 Lexus LS's. There are plenty of other reasons many of us will pass on BMW's next time around.
  • What a pathetic post. Having reviewed all these autos and not really having a budgetary constraint (I can spend what a 545 costs), I can tell you the 5 not only fails to be the benchmark but has significant drawbacks relative to cars which cost less.


    Other have pointed out some of the middle of the road characteristics of the 5. BMW has major issues with reliability, i drive, styling (exterior as noted by many and just compare the A-6 with the 5 interior).


    I am not sold on the RL either by the way. The braking, performance and rear and trunk space mean it represents a big set of compromises also. Put AWD in a TL and it compares very favorably with any of these cars. I also agree that on paper the new M is intriguing. It seems that Infiniti is trying to give the customer solid braking, handling, performance, luxury in terms of adequate interior and trunk space and hopefully the outstanding reliability Infiniti has been known for. BMW (and some of the other overpriced compromises) has been making a living off of people willing to overpay for their set of compromises and I agree with the other posters that it is evident to buyers who really look at the other alternatives.


    As an aside, I think Lexus has gotten away with giving the buyer a relatively poor set of compromises in the base GS also. I can't beleive the redesign seems to be so underpowered, etc. They have been essentially selling an ES with some tinsel.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "BMW 5 series was, and is the benchmark, as much as it hurts those who try to justify their budgetary constraints, by comparing lesser pretenders with the class-leader."


    Again, BMW owners can keep saying that the new 5 is the benchmark, but that doesn't make it so. Neither do a couple reviews from "reviewers" on internet sites. It has NOT been lauded as the benchmark by the general automobile press.


    Budget constraints? People who spend $50k on an RL are not overly concerned about spending a couple thousand extra for a 530i with less features. Wait... maybe by budget constraints you're referring to people who buy the underwhelming 525i (40% of 5 series sales). lol.


    "Considering the cost, why no hydraulic hood struts?"


    Considering the 5's cost, why no in dash cd changer? I'd think that people change their cd's more often than open their hoood.


    I do agree with a couple things in your post. The 5 does have better driving dynamics and prestige than the RL.
  • kirby2010kirby2010 Posts: 136
    Always amazed that BMW comes up as the benchmark. I felt it was a little tight in the shoulders. My 2001 A6 (2.7T w/6speed) is a much more comfortable ride. Goes fast (very fast), fun to drive, etc.


    I guess if all cars are compared to their potential - autobahn speeds with competent drivers on crowded highways - then I suppose one car could stand out. As it is the opportunity to push these cars to the point where there may be a real discriminator, or for that matter, a driver skilled enough to push these cars to their limit, are both very rare commodities.


    Even at an above-the-speed-limit 80-90 mph that many of us would like to be able to drive the differences are too imperceptible to measure.


    I'm considering trading the Audi this spring. Absolutely believe the quattro puts Audi at the top of the class. Now I have to look at the Acura RL. Acura's re-sale may be worth consideration though in this category cost/price is not the first concern.


    Unlikely I will ever go BMW. Styling has taken a turn for the worse. I have always believed BMW to be over-rated. I've known more than one person who had to own a BMW - never driven one - but it was the thing to do. Reminds me of a story I saw in TV a few weeks back. Do you all remember the British TV show from the 60s - "The Saint." Turns out producers wanted Roger Moore to drive a flashy sports car and the new Jaguar model wasn't available. They actually bought - at full price - the new Volvo sports coupe. Demand out paced the ability to produce. Product placement will do wonders and all those pseudo James Bonds out there have convinced themselves they have to have a BMW. Once they reach they have to keep telling themselves they made the right choice.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The journalists say the 5 series is the benchmark. They say if you want value go to the RL, although I'm not really sure what that means.


    The RL deserves to be car of the year, it's a fresh new design, but that's probably where it's gonna end.


    "BMW 5 series was, and is the benchmark, as much as it hurts those who try to justify their budgetary constraints, by comparing lesser pretenders with the class-leader."


    LOL...n1. Thought that would get a reaction.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    No, they arent saying that. You are.


    "M45's 0.90 skidpad performance validates this, setting a new Road & Track best for a production sedan."


    "And its 65.4 mph slalom speed is among the fastest for a luxury 4-door, bested only by more expensive hot rods like the Audi RS-6, BMW M5, and Mercedes-Benz C55.


    Behold the new benchmark bimmers. Its that little upstart Nissan, and its car, beats yours. Sorry. Oh, and R&T's price as tested? $49,999. Try getting a 545i with ANYTHING inside for that.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    With BMW's 5 series getting the worst reliability rating from CR, sounds like the benchmark from hell.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Skidpad means nothing, it's like saying the weight of the steak has any bearing on the quality.


    But it's interesting to see the same old reaction when a supposed BMW beater comes around.


    hpowders - who look at reliability when buying a car? I don't. Even though the Toyota I bought has some issues in CR I still got car. Not worried. People who buy BMWs as well know their cars aren't falling apart and are not going to leave them stranded. Black circles is not a reason not to get a car, otherwise the manufacturers would not sell one of them that CR purports to be unreliable.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Well then you are one of those rare individuals who don't factor in reliability concerns in determining their next car lease or purchase. I, however, believe it is one of many things a prudent potential buyer should be considering. And I am far from being alone-Lexus sales are going through the roof-not because of styling innovations.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    What's more interesting is the same old reaction from BMW fanatics when another car gets good reviews.


    You still harping on the skidpad numbers? Geez


    Face it, the 5 has not been received with universal praise. Many people and reviewers are underimpressed with the styling inside and out (I personally LIKE the exterior styling), poor ergonomics of the i-drive, and reliability history. It has received consistant praise for its handling, but handling alone does not make a car great.


    "who look at reliability when buying a car? I don't."


    Actually, I don't know a single person other than you who doesn't look into the reliability history when buying a car.




    On the other hand, I wouldn't say that the M has set the benchmark in this class. It remains to be seen.
  • Infiniti has been harrying BMW with their G, and RT and CD sure loved the M45, especially with RT blazing to 60 in 5.3s, that too with an automatic tranny. RT felt that this harrying would continue with the new M. Let's see how things work out for these cars.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,056
    to me (I actually buy cars, as opposed to leasing) and very few others, reliability is irrelevant to most drivers in this segment.


    For a variety of reasons, most lease. Some would say it's to drive a car that isn't otherwise affordable. Others point to business-related writeoffs. In any event, many cars needn't last past the warranty to satisfy -- the initial driver dumps it before (or as) the warranty runs out.


    There are precious few people in these boards discussing the pleasure of driving 150K miles in the same dependable vehicle. Holding up my lantern, I continue to search. . .


    Then, to add to the joy, I will only own a car (for personal use, my wife thinks otherwise) with a manual transmission and rear-wheel drive. This is a near non-existant demographic -- sports/luxury with reliability, RWD and a manual transmission. Infiniti is about it. BMW works if you drop the dependability/reliability bit. . .which I'm reluctant to do.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The M finally proves that Japan can build a German car, if they choose to do so. I'm not really surprised it was Nissan to finally pull it off, they've always been the "spunkiest" of the big Japan three. Infiniti is just on a fire streak. It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Q. Infiniti has steadily killed all of its failed Lexus competitors...except for that one.
  • sapparosapparo Posts: 68
    BMW 5 series was, and is the benchmark, as much as it hurts those who try to justify their budgetary constraints, by comparing lesser pretenders with the class-leader"


    No arguing there. It looks like no other. Rear end looks like its dragging a diaper with a full load. Current benchmark and winner of ugliest car of the class with cheap, low rent interior and "like no other" Atari video game controller for entertainment. Other notable entries were the Z4 and big poppa 745. Well it did make the least reliable list along with the 7 so their doing something right.


    Of course the pretender new RL is a much more advanced car with it's SH-AWD system which apparently BMW is going to add on the 5 series wow. Infiniti's going for the throat with these hot new M models. I wonder if BMW management was thinking the G35 was a pretender that's why they rushed to market the ZHP option package. Good thing I have my "ugly blockers" shades handy when I see one in a blue moon.
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    Don't forget that Lexus tried with the GS many years ago. RWD with I6 and V8 power. Too bad no manual transmission was offered.


    I still think the original GS, which was styled by an Italian design outfit, is a beautiful sedan. I much prefer it, and even the current GS, to the bland looks of the new M.


    The GS has been a reliable, safe car. Buyers just never caught on as Lexus hardly promoted it, pushing the LS and ES and SUVs.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Hhahaha! Very well said indeed. I assume any AWD 5 series will be the same system they use in their X SUVs, nice, but no SH-AWD.


    Riez, the GS has always been Lexus' "troubled child". The design of the original was pretty nice for '93, but it was hardly the styling slam dunk of the '92 SC. Its unfortunate that the French team that did the new SC wasnt able to even come close to the stellar job that those Calty guys did with the original. The first GS's power and suspension just didnt measure up. The '98 GS400 fixed that, but added a bunch of other problems. Lexus interiors for '98 were uncharacteristically bad, and the '98 GS and RX suffered because they were introduced for '98. Lexus acted pretty quickly to fix its precious baby RX, but the GS never got the interior updates it needed. You can still see the remnants of the sucky '98 interior though when you compare even an '03 RX to the '04.


    Part of the problem I think is that Lexus and Infiniti are almost polar opposites. Infiniti does sport, and Lexus does luxury. When they try and compete with each other, for example Q45, and IS, it generally doesnt work well. The IS and GS might be able to change that.. but I seriously doubt that they will outhandle G and M. As to whats going to happen to Q45, no idea. Infiniti will probably kill it off.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    The 06 GS interior is one of the best. Just close your eyes before you climb in and you're set.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    It is very good. Autospies has some new pictures with the actual electronics turned on in a GS300, it looks great. The center stack is so clean compared to the typical thoughtless clutter of '98.
  • bmwdougbmwdoug Posts: 248
    The M45 looks like an Altima on steroids. It may be very well be a great car, but the reality is that BMW owns the prestige factor with the public. And, the other reality is that many people buy cars in this price range to make an image statement. Nothing wrong with doing that. In fact, the auto companies market their cars in this price segment to image. I don't believe an infiniti or Acura will ever replace a BMW or Benz in terms of status. And, again, status is a major factor in this segment. If status is not a factor, then the Marketing companies have been wasting money.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Never say never. Lexus is 15 years old. Mercedes is over 100 years old. I would say Lexus has done a remarkable job of aquiring the amount of prestige for their badge in such a short amount of time. Prestige or not, if BMWs are ugly and the electronics are unusuable, people wont buy.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    3 is a 1 series on steroids, 5 is a 3 on steroids, 7 is a 5 on steroids...


    Agree with you about status and prestige. The pricier the car, the more impt image becomes. Right now, BMW has a HUGE leg up on Infiniti in that department. It's not even close. Main reason why comparable Bimmers are about 20% more expensive.


    I wouldn't say Infiniti will never catch up though.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    It also hasnt taken long for Infiniti resale on "Ghosn Infinitis" to skyrocket. Just compare residuals for an I35 vs a G35.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    That's true. The resale of the G, FX, and the QX are quite strong.


    More and more people are noticing Infiniti. Still, Infiniti doesn't even come close to touching the prestige and image of BMW.
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    The great unwashed listen to and read the BMW/Benz prestige ads and marketing literature and lust for the product.


    The long time owners and fans have to support that image and prestige by buying an supporting the marque.


    The growing awareness and articles in places like the Wall Street Journal about product reliability, and observations in trend setting magazines about poor styling are moving the owner fan base to cooler cars that actually deliver on their promise without being butt-ugly, hard to use and hard to live with.


    At the high end of the food chain, what you have the least of is time.
  • 'The M45 looks like an Altima on steroids'


    Not really, though I must agree with you that looks are subjective. To me, the new BMW style trend looks like Pontiac's (front end), and a slightly open trunk a from the rear (7 Series), so as I said, looks are subjective.


    Most publications have loved the M45, and its getting reviews just like the G35 did, when it came out.


    How much it can compete with the 5 series, well, car to car, it does look like a winner, but obviously, the M45 has to fight the BMW name, and that would probably take time. The G35 is largely looked at as a serious 3 series competitor, and I have a feeling the M will be that to the 5 series, in a year or so.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    MSRP released for 2006 M:


    M35: $39,900

    M35 AWD: $42,400

    M35 Sport: $42,700

    M45: $46,750

    M45 Sport: $49,550


    Destination (not included): $610

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