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Honda Accord Hybrid vs. Toyota Camry Hybrid

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    usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "I think you forgot that Accord also uses an axle ratio (the overall gear ratio would be much higher than just the gear ratio)"

    I did not forget. You might had forgotten that Prius has 4.113 reduction gear to increase overall gear ratio also. I just did not include them because I wanted to compare torque output of Accord auto transmission prior to reduction gears.

    "To translate 1200 rpm to 3600 rpm (crank), there would be a need to divide (not multiply) the rate by three, meaning a three times as much tall ratio. This is not needed in a one to one correspondence (as is true in current IMA applications)."

    It is not needed but desirable since electric motor's max torque is at low RPM. It would be ideal to allow max electric torque to meet with ICE max torque. IMA suffers from ineffective dual powertrain combination because of 1:1 static ratio.

    Prius ICE can spin at 3,644 RPM while electric motor (MG2) can still deliver max torque at 1,200 RPM. In a sense, there is a CVT between MG2 and ICE because MG1 can adjust the ratio by spinning at continuous variable speed. If you remember, a long time ago, I said Prius CVT is a three-way CVT. I hope this discussion allow you to crack the beauty of planetary CVT.

    "If your math is valid, Prius should delivery a steady 0.40g thrust throughout the rev range, and should beat cars that have “only” peak thrust better than that. But it doesn’t."

    Which car would that be? Let me give you a counter example. It is interesting that Motortrend tested 2004 Prius 0-60 in 9.8 seconds while 2003 HCH(manual) 0-60 in 11.3 seconds. HCH with 0.44 g had 14" wheels while Prius with 0.40 g had 15", meaning HCH should have even higher thrust at the wheel due to smaller wheel size. According to MSN Autos, HCH CVT did even worse with 0-60 in 12.85 seconds.

    I have to conclude that Prius won because it can achieve maximum power delivery much faster than HCH. Prius available power across rev range is also consistent. Prius does not loose power delivery during shifting gears because it doesn't need to. All this add Prius up to a more responsive and faster car than HCH.

    References:
    http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?modelid=10983&- amp;- amp;- amp;trimid=98665&src=VIP
    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_04_coy_win/in- - - dex5.html
    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyear/112_0404_verdict/inde- - - x4.html

    Dennis

    P.S: C&D tested Prius 0-60 in 11.3 seconds which will tie with HCH manual. The results still explain why Prius HSD drivetrain (0.40g max) is more robust at power delivery than HCH (0.44g max).
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    usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    image

    After current discussion, I understand that graph much better now. 2.4l Camry with 4-speed auto transmission has much higher maximum thrust(g) than Prius. Prius delivers about half the max thrust instantly(from 50kw MG2) and then thrust continue to increase consistently and smoothly. This reminds me of the race between the rabbit and the turtle. =D

    Dennis
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    usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    I used LE 4 speed auto with 247lbs driver with 15% drivetrain loss . This is what it came out to.

    1st Gear - 0.42 g
    2nd Gear - 0.24 g
    3rd Gear - 0.15 g
    4th Gear - 0.11 g

    Just for comparison, these are Prius results.

    0 mph - 0.39g
    20 mph - 0.40g
    40 mph - 0.21g
    60 mph - 0.14g
    80 mph - 0.10g

    image

    From this 30mph-50mph acceleration graph, it looks like Camry downshifted to 2nd gear, then to 1st gear, then back up to 2nd gear. Camry's 4-speed auto seem confused between 1st and 2nd gear probably because the most effective gear to deliver maximum power from 30mph is between 1st and 2nd gear. This is where Prius continuously adapt HSD to deliver maximum power with superior planetary CVT, quickly(half g instantly) and smoothly.

    Interesting, it took Prius about 3 seconds to reach max thrust(g) which is about one sec slower than Camry to reach max thrust at 1st gear. But overall, Prius accelerates faster than Camry by about one second, according to Toyota. 4-speed automatic transmission sux! I find it extremely interesting how Prius with 76hp engine can outperform Camry with 157hp engine. Now, imagine Camry Hybrid with HSD!!!

    Dennis
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Usbseawolf2000:

    ___Not only do you keep rehashing Toyota’s own press releases, you don’t know what the 2.4 of the Camry is actually good for. With a stick, it is 8.35 seconds to 60. With an Auto, it is 8.94 seconds. Both in a Solara which weighs ~ the same as a 2.4 in the 4 Dr. LE/SE/XLE.

    http://www.car-videos.com/performance/speed.asp?Speed1=0&Spee- d2=60

    http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/spec_engines.aspx?make=Toyota&a- mp;model=Camry%20Solara&src=

     ___I sometimes wonder if you have ever driven any of these vehicles. I most certainly have and find the detailed analysis intriguing but not real world when the automobiles hit the road. The Toyota I4 driving the 3,100 # Camry walks all over the 2,900 # Prius with its HSD so why do you even consider comparing the two. The same Toyota info speaks loudly about Prius’ 295 Ft.-Lb’s from 0 - 1,200 RPM as well as a City EPA estimate of 60 mpg yet where is the acceleration or city fuel economy?

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    You can't just go by the feeling by collecting sound, vibration, or power fluctuation because we can be fooled by CVT. I know 0-60 test isn't the only way to tell a car's performance. To me, passing power with response is very important. I know I used the same graphs over and over but hey, I am learning new stuffs every time I look it them.

    "The same Toyota info speaks loudly about Prius’ 295 Ft.-Lb’s from 0 - 1,200 RPM"

    You might of missed my calculation of thrust at the wheels. 295 lbs-ft MG2 is connected to reduction gear(4.113). Whereas in traditional car, engine to the wheel go through transmission and then axle ratio. 1st gear multiplies torque by about 3-4 times and axle ratio multiply by 4 times, multiplying 12 to 16 times the engine torque.

    In short, 295 lbs-ft MG2 is used to simulate torque multiplier of 1st gear in HSD. In traditional car sense, you will feel about 1/3 of it's torque at the wheel because HSD does not have multi-gear transmission. I dont' know, my explanation could be a bit confusing. Give me feedbacks. Thanks.

    Dennis
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Usbseawolf2000:

    ___It isn’t about the calculations; it is about real world performance as measured by the car magazines (0 - 30 or 0 - 60 times) and real world performance as measured by the seat of the pants of the driver purchasing the automobile. If one chooses not to use the power available to them, that is great as it reduces our dependence on foreign oil supplies but saying it (the 04 Prius’ HSD) matches or exceeds the performance spec’s of other various vehicles one might consider is a disservice at best.

    ___The 04 Prius irregardless if it passes some of that 295 Ft.-Lb’s to either MG set, to the wheels through reduction gears, or makes toasted pastries from the heat generated still gives the Prius below par performance in comparison to the Camry w/ the 4 or 6 Auto or Stick, the Accord with a 4 or 6 Auto or Stick, the Corolla Auto or stick, non-Hybrid Civic Auto or Stick in 0 - 30 and 0 - 60 times. You can look the numbers up until you or I are blue in the face. Currently, the HSD is middling in its performance specs at best and downright below par in the worst case scenarios.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    andy71andy71 Member Posts: 96
    Most Prius buyers really don't care how fast their car goes from 0 to 60 mph. Fuel efficiency is their primary goal. If you want fast acceleration than a hybrid isn't for you because quick acceleration is a sure way to reduce fuel efficiency. Given today's gas prices I am sure people won't mind giving up a second or two to reach 60 if the trade off is 50 mpg mileage and 650 miles range on a tank of gas. The Prius did win Motor Trend car of the year; when was the last time the Camry got such an award. Hybrids are here to stay and Toyota very soon could have a broad range of hybrid vehicles.
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    usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "It isn’t about the calculations; it is about real world performance as measured by the car magazines (0 - 30 or 0 - 60 times)"

    I am not arguing against 0-30 or 0-60 time from the magazine. All I am saying is that you can't judge a car's performance just by looking at 0-xx time. Gearing ratios can be optimized to "cheat" on those tests. What about 1/4 mile?(WRX is a good example). What about 5-60mph, 30-50mph or 50-70mph? They are equally if not more important than 0-60. You have to look at all the tests.

    "real world performance as measured by the seat of the pants of the driver purchasing the automobile. "

    We, human can be fooled by our senses. Here is an optical illusion.
    image
    Rings made up of petals of cherry blossoms appear to rotate. The outer ring rotates clockwise while the inner one rotates counterclockwise.

    Driving a HSD Prius will seem slower due to your senses adjusted to the traditional transmission car. I test drove it twice and 2nd time felt faster than first. You can't measure performance by the vibration of your butt or a jolt of thrust. 2 lbs steel ball will feel heavier than 2 lbs basketball because pressure of a steel ball will concentrate at smaller area of your hand.

    Judging a car by 0-60mph test is like judging a book by reading a page of it. What I am trying to find out is why 76hp Prius can deliver power faster than 157hp traditional car in 30-50mph test. In other tests, HSD Prius isn't far behind at all. My hypothesis had been that, traditional cars have a limiting factor preventing it from delivering it's optimal power to the road. That bottleneck is the transmission. Manual transmission does a much better job than an automatic transmission but HSD planetary ECVT is superior. HCH mechanical CVT seems no better than automatic transmission. It had been interesting and learned much more due to this discussion.

    Dennis
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Andy71:

    Most Prius buyers really don't care how fast their car goes from 0 to 60 mph. Fuel efficiency is their primary goal. If you want fast acceleration than a hybrid isn't for you because quick acceleration is a sure way to reduce fuel efficiency. Given today's gas prices I am sure people won't mind giving up a second or two to reach 60 if the trade off is 50 mpg mileage and 650 miles range on a tank of gas.

    ___If one is going to compare performance between an 04 Prius and an Accord or Camry as Usbseawolf2000 has done in countless threads here, you may as well get used to the facts. The 04 Prius is at best 9.8 seconds on a full pack and at worst, 11.43 with the same. With a dead pack, it is almost 15 seconds. An I4 from the Camry is always < 9 according to the 2 review sites I linked above. And you are entirely correct when you said that if you want acceleration, a Hybrid isn&#146;t for you. It is not like I haven&#146;t portrayed to other Hybrid owners this exact fact again and again.

    ___As for giving up a second or two to 60 to achieve 50 mpg and receive 600 + miles of range, I am all for that as well. My 03 Corolla w/ Auto receives > 45 mpg in freezing temperatures and has exceeded 600 miles numerous times. It does so with a 9.8 seconds to 60 run and I didn&#146;t pay $26,000 + for it either. In other words, 600 miles range with just average performance is quite literally child&#146;s play.

    ___If you were considering real world mileage and/or range, there is another you might consider as this was just my last week&#146;s miles on a single tank …

    image

    ___Usbseawolf2000, now you are saying the car magazines are getting one off hopped up cars for their testing or that the gear ratios of the cars in question are optimized for 0 - 30 and/or 0 - 60 times? That is a very interesting statement indeed given the 04 Prius given to MT is the only one that achieved < 10 seconds to 60. Even Toyota&#146;s UK site lists a 0 - 62 mph sprint at 10.5 to 10.6 seconds or similar. Seat of the pants in the 4 banger Camry is faster and real world performance testing by the car mags is faster. The Prius doesn&#146;t just seem slower, it is slower. Where you keep coming up with the 76 HP vs. 157 HP number is beyond me as well … You know very well that the Prius&#146; pack and MG sets supply the excess. If there wasn&#146;t a pack and MG-Sets, the 76 HP motor would take a sun dial to measure the time from 0 - 30, 0 - 60, 30 - 50 or whatever you were to consider.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Usbseawolf2000, now you are saying the car magazines are getting one off hopped up cars for their testing or that the gear ratios of the cars in question are optimized for 0 - 30 and/or 0 - 60 times?"

    I believe you are the one who came up with that.

    "Even Toyota&#146;s UK site lists a 0 - 62 mph sprint at 10.5 to 10.6 seconds or similar."

    In Europe, Prius comes with 16" wheels. Bigger wheels reduce the thrust at the wheel therefore, resulting in slower 0-62 mph time.

    "The Prius doesn&#146;t just seem slower, it is slower."

    Everybody knows that Prius is slower in 0-60 than Camry 2.4L. Based on that, are you trying to generalize Prius as "slower" in other aspects of performance? Maybe you meant only in 0-60mph test but not specifying where it is slow at, implies otherwise. Do you really believe that Toyota is lying when they said Prius is about faster than Camry 4-speed auto in 30-50mph test by about one sec? I ask that because you don't seem to acknowledge it.

    "Where you keep coming up with the 76 HP vs. 157 HP number is beyond me as well … You know very well that the Prius&#146; pack and MG sets supply the excess."

    Where do you think those NiMH's electricity come from? Well, the same 76 hp engine.

    Dennis
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Usbseawolf2000:

    I believe you are the one who came up with that.

    ___What have you been arguing the performance of then? The 04 Prius vs. a Lupo? No, you have been posting the performance measures of the 04 Prius vs. the Camry 4 and or Accord by calculations and it doesn&#146;t add up when the wheels hit the road.

    In Europe, Prius comes with 16" wheels. Bigger wheels reduce the thrust at the wheel therefore, resulting in slower 0-62 mph time.

    ___And what about MSN Carpoint&#146;s 0 - 60 time of 11.43 seconds? Canadian Drivers 0 - 62 in 11.2 seconds, Car and Drivers 11.3 seconds, and Motor Weeks 10.2 seconds?

    Everybody knows that Prius is slower in 0-60 than Camry 2.4L. Based on that, are you trying to generalize Prius as "slower" in other aspects of performance?

    ___Exactly! And 0 - 30 mph as well … As for 30 - 50, I haven&#146;t seen that tested anywhere except by Toyota, have you? In the same area, Toyota is showing the Torque graph of 295 Ft.-Lb&#146;s from 0 - 1,200 RPM? It isn&#146;t usable Torque to the wheels yet you have mentioned this excess over and above Honda&#146;s IMA system again and again? The Honda&#146;s IMA is rather anemic and the Prius HSD is as well.

    Where do you think those NiMH's electricity come from? Well, the same 76 hp engine.

    ___And when the pack is in use for full acceleration, does the 76 HP engine give the Prius that extra 30 - 40 HP as well as supply 76 HP to the wheels alone? Not a chance.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    andy71andy71 Member Posts: 96
    Remember, Prius is only one of the hybrids Toyota is offering. If you want to buy a hybrid for its power you can always buy a hybrid Highlander that is coming out for MY 05 or wait for the hybrid Camry coming out for MY 06. The Hybrid Highlander combines the 3.3L gasoline V6 with a more powerful HSD for a total output of 270 Hp. It will acceleration from 0 to 60 in the low 7 seconds and get 35 to 40 mpg. Now that is something I look forward to. If you want to buy the ultimate Hybrid wait for Alssendro Volta concept car. That car produces 408 Hp although it is just a concept at this point.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There's also the Accord hybrid, due out this fall, and the Camry hybrid due for MY 2006.
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Andy71:

    ___Why would I need a smaller Highlander hybrid to receive Hybrid type mileage in a 4WD SUV? The MDX already does 0 - 60 in the high 7&#146;s/low 8&#146;s.

    image

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    andy71andy71 Member Posts: 96
    Are you sure the MDX is bigger than the Highlander? I don't know the specs of either but the 2004 Highlander is bigger than its predeccesor and can seat seven. Is that readout from your MDX ? I have a hard time believing that a 4000 lb V6 SUV can get 33 mpg. The hybrid Highlander will be quicker than the MDX to 60 mph by almost a second with better gas mileage and a lower price tag.
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Andy71:

    ___The 01-04 Acura MDX is much larger then the 04 Highlander. If Toyota enlarged the 05 HH to be larger then the MDX, that would be news to me … In regards to the performance, the 04 MDX&#146;s run 0 - 60 in the high 7 range.

    ___As for what you have a hard time believing, pictures speak louder then words. And yes, that pic is from my MDX. The MDX is a true lux SUV. If it weren&#146;t for the cold weather on that trip 2 weeks ago, I would have breached 35 mpg as I had a high of 34.7 when I hit the first cold front at 110 miles out dropping from 72 to 62 degrees F in less then 5 minutes and another 9 degree drop after that :-( The Highlander isn&#146;t quite a lux SUV yet whereas the RXh is albeit still much smaller then the MDX.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "No, you have been posting the performance measures of the 04 Prius vs. the Camry 4 and or Accord by calculations and it doesn&#146;t add up when the wheels hit the road."

    What makes you say that it doesn't add up? I have to repost the results again for you to see the results side by side.

    Accord LX 4 cylinder 5-speed automatic:

    1st Gear - 0.47 g
    2nd Gear - 0.27 g
    3rd Gear - 0.18 g
    4th Gear - 0.13 g
    5th Gear - 0.10 g

    Camry 2.4 L 4-speed automatic:

    1st Gear - 0.42 g
    2nd Gear - 0.24 g
    3rd Gear - 0.15 g
    4th Gear - 0.11 g

    2004 Prius HSD Planetary E-CVT:

    0 mph - 0.39g
    20 mph - 0.40g
    40 mph - 0.21g
    60 mph - 0.14g
    80 mph - 0.10g

    Accord vs. Camry:
    Accord with 5-speed has total advantage over Camry 4-speed as you can see.

    Camry vs. Prius:
    During sequential incremental shifting tests (0-30 or 0-60), Camry will win since it's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear thrust(g) is higher Prius from 0-60mph. But when comes to 30-50mph test, Camry will need to downshift to deliver maximum thrust(g) and then gradually upshift as the speed increases. Prius wins in 30-50mph test because the thrust(g) from 50kw motor comes at the speed of electricity. Here we go again. Look at it carefully! =D

    image.

    "As for 30 - 50, I haven&#146;t seen that tested anywhere except by Toyota, have you?"

    Yes I have and I posted many times also. C&D Prius' 30-50mph top gear acceleration time is 5.5 seconds. Look at the above graph again! According to Toyota graph, Prius reached 30-50mph in 5.2 seconds while Camry 2.4 L took 6.0 seconds. Have you test drive a 2004 Prius? Maybe that's why your perception, which is based on 0-60mph time only, is largly different from others who own or drove the Prius.

    "Toyota is showing the Torque graph of 295 Ft.-Lb&#146;s from 0 - 1,200 RPM? It isn&#146;t usable Torque to the wheels yet you have mentioned this excess over and above "

    295 lbs-ft 50kw MG2 is the reason why Prius can "downshift"(boost thrust instantly) and won 30-50mph test.

    "The Honda&#146;s IMA is rather anemic and the Prius HSD is as well"

    Generalizing again. IMA could be anemic because it uses traditional transmission with a weak drivetrain. Prius HSD passing power is superior because of the responsiveness, power delivery, and smoothness of Planetary E-CVT. I've shown clearly that judging a car by 0-60mph test displays very little about a car's performance.

    Dennis
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    usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Why would I need a smaller Highlander hybrid to receive Hybrid type mileage in a 4WD SUV?"

    Comparing different driving condition and behavior again? If you want a comparative results, look at EPA or Consumer's Report.

    image

    2004 Prius achieving 85.7 MPG over 967 miles on a tank. If you own a Prius, I am sure you can do better than that. You can probably milk HLH to 60 MPG as well.

    Dennis
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi USBseawolf2000:

    Have you test drive a 2004 Prius? Maybe that's why your perception, which is based on 0-60mph time only, is largly different from others who own or drove the Prius.

    ___Yes, I have driven the 04 Prius 3X and the 4 cylinder 03 Camry about 5X, how about you? It (the 04 Prius) is slower from 0 - 30 and 0 - 60. I still don&#146;t see where you saw the Camry 4&#146;s 30 - 50 times as I have been looking for one for this stat from an independent source for quite some time myself.

    Generalizing again. IMA could be anemic because it uses traditional transmission with a weak drivetrain.

    ___As for the 5-speed Honda Insight&#146;s IMA being anemic, you bet it is. And it beats the almost 10X more torque available 04 Prius from 0 - 1,200 RPM in both the 0 - 30 and 0 - 60 times in more reviews then it doesn&#146;t. What does that tell you about the 4 year old anemic IMA setup found in the Honda vs. the latest HSD of the 04 Prius? This isn&#146;t generalizing anything as it posted all over the net by the car mags. Do you really need to have these facts linked again? And you know what, who cares. The Camry and Accord are faster then the 04 Prius so why do you keep comparing the 04 Prius against them? Wait until you see how anemic the inferior IMA setup performs in the 05 Accord Hybrid ;-)

    Comparing different driving condition and behavior again? If you want a comparative results, look at EPA or Consumer's Report.

    ___Really? Where have you seen a review of the 05 Highlander Hybrid? I already know it doesn&#146;t have the room or luxury of the 01 - 04 MDX so why would I want to downgrade features and amenities?

    ___As for the 04 Prius tank, have you spoken w/ Krousdb yet? I have only been beyond that range 5X or 30% of the miles I have driven the poor little girl with the last by almost 40% using the (according to you?) substandard IMA setup ;-)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    bamacarbamacar Member Posts: 749
    The 2004 is no larger than any previous Highlander. They did add a 3rd row seat but the overall size is unchanged. It is significantly smaller than either the MDX or Pilot.

    Xcel, any special advice on how you maximized your mileage on your MDX. I have been satisfied with our Pilot versus the competition but have not seen anything near your numbers.
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Bamacar:

    ___You can find most of my techniques in the &#147;You aren&#146;t going to believe this&#148; thread over at Acuramdx.org. I was pretty much a newbie Hyper miler back when I first posted that thread but afterwards, I really haven&#146;t had a < 30 mpg segment in warmer weather since. Drive with load, never exceed the limits by but a few mpg in the X (never in the Insight except for long down hills with a long and large ascents afterwards), increase tire pressures, use Mobil1 Tri-Syn, anticipate lights, signs, and traffic beyond the normal few car lengths, and generally take acceleration to its minimums in most conditions. The MDX and your Pilot will always have plenty to spare in case you really need it ;-) Does the Pilot have a game gauge as that most certainly will teach you about driving with load but I don&#146;t remember if it did or not now? There are other techniques to explain but this is a Honda Accord &#150; Toyota Camry thread so just look up the info at the various other Hybrid or MDX forum(s) around the net.

    ___Andy71, the MDX is a 4,500 # SUV so equipped in my stable …

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    tim_hooligantim_hooligan Member Posts: 143
    -- xcel, i've been reading your posts about fuel economy and laughed at your screenshot. I reset the trip MPG on my V8 4runner and drove it back from the lake. It showed 24.9mpg over the 100 mile trip. HAHAH! ok, ya right. Over the long haul, it'll show 21-22mpg, but calculating by actual gas consumption over mileage gets me about 16-17mpg. So, the computer shows inflated numbers. In your case, the computer may, and most likely is, showing highly inflated numbers. Don't believe everything a computer tells you.

    As for hybrids in general, why do you insist on harping on performance, 0-60, blah blah blah...when hybrids are, at this point, all about fuel economy and "being green". I even tested an '04Prius for a weekend and thought it performed quite admirably in DC traffic, highways, and back roads. In fact, I passed a car on a 2-lane road with ease...got up from 50-70mph quite quickly.

    My other observation with the hyrbrid is that they are faster than you realize. Your normal audible queues to velocity (engine noise, wind noise) and sensations (shifting, thrust) are not highly evident. The only REAL noise was road noise and engine roar at full throttle. Otherwise, it got right up into legal speeds at a normal pace, though you don't realize it. Your brain isn't getting its usual clues.

    Overall, if you dislike hybrids so much, don't buy one. But with gas prices escalating and oil supplies tight, their ubiquity is emminent.

    -th
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Tim_Hooligan:

    -- xcel, i've been reading your posts about fuel economy and laughed at your screenshot. I reset the trip MPG on my V8 4runner and drove it back from the lake. It showed 24.9mpg over the 100 mile trip. HAHAH! ok, ya right. Over the long haul, it'll show 21-22mpg, but calculating by actual gas consumption over mileage gets me about 16-17mpg. So, the computer shows inflated numbers. In your case, the computer may, and most likely is, showing highly inflated numbers. Don't believe everything a computer tells you.

    ___Obviously, you have not been paying attention to what I have been posting then as you are entirely incorrect with your statement above. You can see my display vs. Actual with gallons purchased and miles traveled in the thread I created in the other forum … You can also see my Insight&#146;s tank over tank at GreenHybrid&#146;s Real Mileage Database. This isn&#146;t fantasy but is what I receive through Chicago&#146;s infamous nightmare of Interstates day after day after day.

    ___I only wish individuals like yourself would open you minds to what is possible from your automobiles so that you might actually read, learn, understand, and then use what has been posted around the net on maximizing fuel economy. Foreign oil dependence? What foreign oil dependence? Beating EPA estimates by 25 - 50% in just about anything I have driven is beginning to be damned easy in warmer temps. My daughter is a Hertz manager and we took a Mercury Mountaineer down to Champaign, IL. for my sons graduation just last week. In other words, no synthetic oil, no high pressure tires, no mods whatsoever and I had a 26.9 mpg average until my daughter took over about half way home and drove it back into the ground again. It was only rated for 19 mpg highway! That particular trip was measured only by the FCD in the Mountaineer so I have no idea if it was accurate or not but the Insight and MDX have very good records including total miles and gallons purchased as well as what the FCD shows vs. actual. I even have weighted averages of Temperatures driven in if you would care to see that … The actual mileage is well within 1 - 2 % of the FCD over any period of time. Even the 03 Corolla LE w/ Auto throughout the winter months here in Chicago had an average almost 10% above EPA estimates and 50 mpg is within striking distance if I ever get the opportunity to take it out on the highway again! Here is a good one for you … The next time you take that V8 of yours out, maybe you might consider receiving better fuel economy from it instead of criticizing others for actually doing so in the vehicles they drive on a daily basis …

    ___As for Hybrid&#146;s in general and their 0 - 60 times, why don&#146;t you read the defenders of Hybrid&#146;s here at Edmunds posts discussing 0 - 60 times. A Hybrid isn&#146;t about 0 - 30, 0 - 60, or how fast it is in the quarter but when someone else says a Hybrid performs on par with a std. ICE, the proof is in the car mag&#146;s own articles and reviews. USBseawolf2000 has posted numerous times in regards to the superiority of the HSD in the 04 Prius in terms of acceleration … What acceleration? 0 - 30 in 3.2 seconds or 0 - 60 in 9.8 - 14.9 seconds? Forget about the performance aspect of a Hybrid because until the 05 Accord Hybrid or 05 HH or RXh, there isn&#146;t any performance item to wave the flag too. Not when an $11,000 Echo w/ a stick will trounce all available Hybrid&#146;s to date anyway! Is it enough? I would think so but please, don&#146;t even pretend a Hybrid performs as most other automobiles one would care to compare against today including the Toyota Corolla w/ Auto&#146;s 9.8 seconds, w/ stick, 8.x seconds, Ford Focus w/ Auto 9 seconds, and w/ stick 8.0/8.1 seconds, Camry 4 w/ stick 8.3/8.4 or with Auto 9 seconds … I really should look up some of the 4 banger Accord 0 - 30 and 0 - 60 times but I can bet they are a wee bit faster then the 04 Prius&#146; HSD or any other Hybrid available to date as well?

    ___When the defenders raise the emissions flag, that is almost BS as well given any auto manufacturer can make their 4-cylinder ICE&#146;s PZEV&#146;s with a few hundred dollars in HW, not $3 - $5,000 in Hybrid clad gear. The 03 MDX is a ULEV-II which is just one step away from SULEV if you care to follow up on this from the EPA.gov site. It also has 260 HP available at any and all times (pressure/temperature related losses not included), not just when some Hybrid pack is full. My 03 Ranger XLT is a LEV yet was number 1 on the Green Vehicle Guide when I purchased it last year. The Insight is a ULEV at best and a LEV at worst. Fortunately when receiving almost 50% higher then EPA estimates in it, I am in reality outputting at worst ULEV emissions hopefully? CO2 output is already far less then any non-Insight Hybrid driver will ever reach this year. The Corolla is just a ULEV but what do you think she&#146;s outputting when on the highway receiving 46 + mpg? In other words, the Hybrid defenders should be mad as hell at the automobile manufacturers for not making all 4 cylinder ICE&#146;s PZEV&#146;s to really clean the air we breath instead of hyping and relying on a few tens of thousands of Hybrid&#146;s being purchased each year here in the US (vs. the 17 or so million other automobiles the US citizenry purchases on a yearly basis) at the cost of $20,000 - $27,000 that half the public cannot afford anyway! Remember the Focus PZEV? I think I could pick up a stripped ZX3 for ~ $11,500. A PZEV Nissan Sentra? I don&#146;t know what I could pick one up for or if the PZEV is available here in my locale but it damned sure isn&#146;t $20 - $27K.

    ___So what does that leave? Fuel Economy. When one talks fuel economy, they had better be close to right. I know of no one individual that has received 60 mpg in an all city environment in an 04 Prius. I hope to hear of one soon but it hasn&#146;t popped up yet. I know of at least 3 individuals that have exceeded 80 mpg on the highway in an 04 using most of the techniques us hyper milers use. Unfortunately, the general public including yourself is unwilling to learn and drive using those techniques and setups so substandard fuel economy is what you will receive … until hell freezes over unfortunately.

    ___Finally, your last observation is not entirely correct either … I already own a Hybrid and yes, I know what the acceleration, NVH, and overall general performance is like (its middling at best) as well as what is possible in terms of fuel economy which is excellent if one does actually learn how to drive one to maximize that particular aspect from it.

    ___Are you ready to learn yet?

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    Accord LX 4 cylinder 5-speed automatic

    1st Gear - 0.47 g
    2nd Gear - 0.27 g
    3rd Gear - 0.18 g
    4th Gear - 0.13 g
    5th Gear - 0.10 g

    Comment: 5-Speed offers more efficient power delivery to the wheels.

    Camry 2.4 L 4-speed automatic

    1st Gear - 0.42 g
    2nd Gear - 0.24 g
    3rd Gear - 0.15 g
    4th Gear - 0.11 g

    Comment: Offers higher acceleration (g) through out all the gear than Corolla and Echo.

    2004 Corolla 4-speed automatic

    1st Gear - 0.40 g
    2nd Gear - 0.22 g
    3rd Gear - 0.14 g
    4th Gear - 0.10 g

    Comment: Satisfactory performance for most drivers.

    2004 Echo 4-speed automatic

    1st Gear - 0.40 g
    2nd Gear - 0.22 g
    3rd Gear - 0.14 g
    4th Gear - 0.10 g

    Comment: The same atisfactory performance for most drivers as Corolla.

    2004 Prius HSD Planetary E-CVT

    0 mph - 0.39g
    20 mph - 0.40g
    40 mph - 0.21g
    60 mph - 0.14g
    80 mph - 0.10g

    Comment: Satisfactory performance as other mainstream cars. Due to superior Planetary E-CVT, Prius is faster in 30-50mph than the Camry. Prius performance in different conditions can not be estimated with conventional thinking. It would be safe to say that Prius performance is somewhere between Accord, Camry and Corolla depending on the conditions.

    Civic hybrid 5-speed MANUAL

    1st Gear - 0.45 g
    2nd Gear - 0.25 g
    3rd Gear - 0.16 g
    4th Gear - 0.12 g
    5th Gear - 0.09 g

    Comment: Manual transmission generally gives higher (g). Also note that the numbers were calculated with the torque peak. Numbers are a little bit bloated especially for IMA design(See torque graph in msg#2). Real world 0-60mph performance is about Prius depending on how fast a drive can shift.

    Insight 5-speed MANUAL

    1st Gear - 0.30 g
    2nd Gear - 0.15 g
    3rd Gear - 0.10 g
    4th Gear - 0.07 g
    5th Gear - 0.06 g

    Comment: There is one car that does not belong to the mainstream pack. Can you spot the anemic car?

    Dennis
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    usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    I learned so much about hybrids in relation to traditional gas and diesel cars. I've reached to the point of understand that satisfies my curiosity. Learning more about in such discussion will become low priority for me. Until I find out more about the next generation of HSD, I will resume.

    Conservative estimate spec for Camry Hybrid:

    Internal Combustion Engine: 2.4 L Atkinson Cycle, 130 HP, 130 lbs-ft
    Main electric Motor: 80 KW
    Battery: 2.5 KWH (48 modules)
    Fuel economy: 40+ MPG combined

    Dennis
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi USBseawolf2000:

    ___When the 04 Prius pack is drained it takes ~ 14.9 seconds to 60 or with a full pack, an average of 10.935 seconds. 9.8 from MT, 11.2 from C&D, 11.3 from Canadian Driver, and 11.43 from MSN Carpoint. What does that tell you? It isn&#146;t worth comparing the 04 Prius performance let alone any Hybrid&#146;s performance to a mainstream std. ICE but if you want, this is sad for a $27,000 automobile to finish almost dead last and basically at the bottom of all lists?

    Honda Accord LX 4 w/ Auto in 8.6 seconds
    Toyota Camry 4 w/ Auto: 9.0 seconds
    Toyota Corolla w/ Auto: 9.8 seconds
    Toyota Echo w/ Auto: 9.8 seconds
    Honda Insight w/ 5-speed: 10.5 seconds
    Honda Civic Hybrid w/ 5-speed: 11.3 seconds

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Honda Accord LX 4 w/ Auto in 8.6 seconds
    Toyota Camry 4 w/ Auto: 9.0 seconds
    Toyota Prius w/CVT: 9.8 seconds
    Toyota Corolla w/ Auto: 9.8 seconds
    Toyota Echo w/ Auto: 9.8 seconds
    Honda Insight w/ 5-speed: 10.5 seconds
    Honda Civic Hybrid w/ 5-speed: 11.3 seconds

    Doesn't look like the bottom of the list to me.

    One thing that is fairly certain based on available data is that both the Accord hybrid and HLH will be above all the cars on this list (forgive me for trying to get back on topic).
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Backy:

    ___If you want to get back on Topic, why did you copy and paste?

    When the 04 Prius pack is drained it takes ~ 14.9 seconds to 60 or with a full pack, an average of 10.935 seconds. 9.8 from MT, 11.2 from C&D, 11.3 from Canadian Driver, and 11.43 from MSN Carpoint. What does that tell you? It isn&#146;t worth comparing the 04 Prius performance let alone any Hybrid&#146;s performance to a mainstream std. ICE but if you want, this is sad for a $27,000 automobile to finish almost dead last and basically at the bottom of all lists?

    ___Secondly, read more closely or did you miss the 10.935 seconds to 60 average of the 04 Prius again? Yes, almost bottom of the list and $27,000 later … Have you paid $27,000 or more for yours yet? Performance of the Hybrid&#146;s is a no go today so why should USBseawolf2000 keep bringing up the 04 Prius and its vastly superior HSD with its rather anemic performance in comparison to any comparable vehicle including the Camry and Accord? The world may never know?

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I didn't know copying and pasting (as you just did in your last post) was illegal.

    So all the times in your list represented averages from multiple sources? Sorry, I missed that. So what number would you like to plug into the list for the Prius? The 9.8 seconds from MT COTY? The 10.2 from another MT test (the one where the Insight came in at 10.7 and the HCH at 12.1)? CR's 10.4? C/D's 11.2 (beaten by CR--they should be ashamed of themselves!)? Use any of these numbers, even the average you calculated, and it does not put the Prius at the bottom of the list. Why is it so incredibly important to you to portray the Prius as the slowest of any comparable vehicle, even in forums that have nothing to do with the Prius, and even though it is not true (as your own data demonstrate)? This Prius hatred of yours is mind-boggling, and also tiresome. You could at least reserve it for boards designed for that purpose, like "Are hybrids up to the chore?"
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Backy:

    ___You missed it again …

    It isn&#146;t worth comparing the 04 Prius performance let alone any Hybrid&#146;s performance to a mainstream std. ICE but if you want, this is sad for a $27,000 automobile to finish almost dead last and basically at the bottom of all lists?

    Honda Accord LX 4 w/ Auto in 8.6 seconds
    Toyota Camry 4 w/ Auto: 9.0 seconds
    Toyota Corolla w/ Auto: 9.8 seconds
    Toyota Echo w/ Auto: 9.8 seconds
    Honda Insight w/ 5-speed: 10.5 seconds
    Honda Civic Hybrid w/ 5-speed: 11.3 seconds

    Toyota Prius in 10.935 seconds as an average.

    ___Please feel free to average as many 5 speed HCH&#146;s and Insight reviews as you can to compare with USBseawolf2000&#146;s acceleration performance in terms of G&#146;s alone. Then look at the std. ICE equipped list and tell me something new?

    ___Your Prius zealotry is fast approaching that of John and Jason … I created the post(s) to dispel USBseawolf2000&#146;s insistence that the Prius and HSD is superior to just about any comparable automobile and its drivetrain that he has mentioned in the last 50 or so posts including the Camry 4 and the Accord. Did you miss his references to the 04 Prius and HSD&#146;s superiority or were you just skimming the thread? Screw the superiority. The hybrids available to us today are made for fuel economy, not performance yet some still insist the 04 Prius is in the same league in terms of performance as the Camry, Corolla, Echo, Accord, and Civic to name a few. The performance of the two best hybrid&#146;s (the 5-speed Insight and the 04 Prius) doesn&#146;t match the 0 - 30 or 60 times of the other std. ICE equipped automobiles by upwards of 30% and this performance is from a vehicle (the 04 Prius) most cannot touch for < $26,000 +. This is fact.

    ___Now if you want to talk rational fuel economy and rational performance for most without any tips or tricks, you are looking at an 04 Prius with possibly mid 40&#146;s fuel economy capability and 0 - 60 in 10.5 - 11.0 seconds. In the city, don&#146;t expect to get 60 mpg in an 04 Prius as I don&#146;t know anyone that has yet? Hopefully that will be breached soon if it hasn&#146;t been already but there are quite a few 10&#146;s of thousands of 04 Prius out there, aren&#146;t there? In an acceleration contest, don&#146;t pretend it is capable of beating just about anything comparable from initial push of the accelerator to any particular speed. This does not make it a useless automobile in the least and I have never said it was. What it does well at is receiving good fuel economy in comparison to a std. ICE but with a cost in terms of performance and a large initial price hit that should make everyone heading in to make the purchase of one pause and consider if it is really worth it. The same could be said of the many over priced SUV&#146;s or Sports Cars hyping performance at all costs while not a word is mentioned about their overall fuel economy, real world matching EPA or otherwise.

    ___When Hybrid&#146;s are spoken of with real world reality or facts in mind, they can and do make perfect sense for those that will consider them for their greenness, uniqueness, HOV lane usage, or whatever they purchase them for in the future and for those that have purchased them in the past. When they are spoken about in terms of superiority of components, performance, or cost effectiveness, then I have an issue and I am surprised you don&#146;t either as you sound like a usually rational individual. This coming from a Hybrid owner that receives better then EPA estimates but one that never uses much of its acceleration potential knowing it simply isn&#146;t worth it …

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you continue to twist my statements and opinions, I'm going to have to say goodbye to you(again). I'm not going to put up with it.

    I don't think I missed anything. You stated that the Prius is "basically at the bottom of all lists." All lists would inclulde lists on 0-60 times. I couldn't have missed that or gotten it wrong because it's a direct quote from you. If you wish to recant that statement, go ahead, but don't insinuate that I don't know how to read.

    I am not a Prius zealot, although I think the Prius is the best hybrid available for sale today, at least for someone with my needs. But I'd like to see the discussion about hybrids be fair and balanced, not laced with misstatements of fact or hyperbole--on either side. For example:

    The hybrids available to us today are made for fuel economy, not performance yet some still insist the 04 Prius is in the same league in terms of performance as the Camry, Corolla, Echo, Accord, and Civic to name a few.

    The data you posted above shows that the 04 Prius is in the same league in terms of performance as the other cars you mentioned, in terms of 0-60 times. I can provide other data if you wish that shows the Prius is in the same league as these cars in braking performance. It is quicker than all of these cars? No. But it's in the "same league", meaning pretty darn close to all of them. A few tenths of a second here or there aren't going to make a significant difference for anyone, and I don't see the point in continuing to harp on it.

    I think CR's review of the Prius said it best: they highlighted its "competitive" performance overall when comparing it to several other cars in its price and size class. And it came out on top in that comparo. It came out on top in MT's COTY analysis. It came out on top (in the top 10 anyway) in C/D's 10Best analysis. The editors of Edmunds.com like it. Over 130 people are lined up at my local Toyota dealership trying to own one sometime in their lifetimes. All these facts talk to the success of the Prius on the road and in the marketplace. So go ahead and keep talking at every opportunity about how slow the Prius is, how poor its fuel economy is (for a hybrid), how expensive it is (always stating the maximum list price for the car), how poorly designed it is (that terrible rear window), how poorly equipped it is (no height-adjustable drivers seat etc.). I'll just skip past your posts to read here (I hope) about the Accord hybrid and Camry hybrid.
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Backy:

    ___Since you have said you were leaving what, maybe 5X now? Why don&#146;t you consider it … again.

    ___Bottom of the list … you bet it is. Did you want 0 - 30 times, slalom, and Skidpad tests as well? You have your copies of MT with the big Hybrid test and C&D with the smaller articles in it. Why not post some of those numbers for the rest of us. Are you afraid to tell the truth or just afraid others might balk when they see the truth? A 5 - 35% shortfall is in the same league? The latest Hybrid drivetrain in the 04 Prius is already slower then even the middling economy car based Corolla and Echo w/ Auto&#146;s! With sticks, it&#146;s a laugher. Did you really think it wasn&#146;t? If you step up to the Camry and Accord, you are definitely stepping into another league as they are even quicker w/ autos and sticks. If the Hybrid wannabe&#146;s would just quit trying to defend the Hybrid&#146;s performance, all would be fine and good with the forums but if performance attributes are going to continually pop up, let them come as the latest Hybrid&#146;s don&#146;t stack up against the std. ICE&#146;s we are all used to driving. Next year when the HH, RXh, or especially the Accord Hybrid becomes available, then there won&#146;t be this discussion on performance but today, you bet there is a difference. If you want to speak of fuel economy, feel free because that is where a Hybrid&#146;s strength really leys, not in its performance.

    ___MT&#146;s online article of the same albeit missing a ton of their more detailed performance information … Real world fuel economy of the 04 Prius is expected to be in the mid 40&#146;s. Performance? With a full pack, 0 - 60 in now 10.2 seconds, not 9.8 like before? Almost 15 seconds when drained? What happened? What makes a 10.935 second to 60 mph automobile when looking at MT, C&D, Motor Week, and Canadian Driver perform in the same league as the latest Accord/Camry contingent with low 8&#146;s and 9&#146;s to 60 using 4&#146;s? You are delusional if you think that stat is even close to comparable let alone in the same league.

    ___As for the $27,000 quote, the more I see of 04 Prius purchases, the more I see package 9&#146;s being offered with a take it or leave it from the Toyota dealers. Take a look for yourself here at Edmunds or any other Hybrid forum if you don&#146;t believe me.

    ___And finally, have you picked up your Prius yet?

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
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    motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Wayne:

    I agree that buying a non hybrid econo car like the Corolla or Civic probably makes more sense now than a hybrid Civic which is considerably slower than the non hybrid version and costs more or the Prius which is a tad slower than a Corolla or a 4 cylinder Camry and costs way more than the Corolla and as much as a Camry. Having said that, do you think gasoline prices are going to come down anytime soon? There might be some fluctuation every now and then, but the overall trend for future is nowhere but up. Demand for gasoline is going to skyrocket in the near future with China emerging as a major economic powerhouse. I wouldn't be surprised at all if 3 to 5 years from now $3 a gallon will be the norm. Under such a scenario, hybrids will be a very tempting alternative to a lot of potential customers. By then price differences between hybrids and non hybrids will probably be in the hundreds not thousands of dollars.

    Hybrid technology is still evolving and although it hasn't been perfected yet I think pretty soon it will be. In fact, Toyota plans an all hybrid line up within 7 years ( I think).
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Motownusa:

    ___Looking out 6 months at the NYMEX Unleaded Gasoline contracts; it looks like we might be back in $1.70 range for gasoline here near Chicago. The future does hold even higher fuel costs but that doesn&#146;t give the automobile manufacturers reasons to fleece the consumer.

    ___With the above, what if the Focus&#146;, Civic&#146;s, Corolla&#146;s, and Echo&#146;s had ICE&#146;s and drive trains with 0 - 60 times in the high 10&#146;s to 12&#146;s similar to the Hybrid&#146;s available to us today? What kind of fuel economy do you think a Toyota Echo would receive using the PZEV based Atkinsonized 1.5 like the 04 Prius uses now without the 100 &#150; 200 #&#146;s of Hybrid HW? The Prius&#146; ICE is already very similar to that used in the Echo now (same bore and stroke and possibly the same block!) minus the intake valve timing mods and the PZEV HW. 76 HP might not be a great deal for a 2,900 # 04 Prius but I am sure it would give the 2,050 # Echo w/ a manual a 0 - 60 time of 11 - 12 seconds and a highway mileage in the high 50&#146;s/low 60&#146;s? I would hope they would also remove the center mounted gauge cluster mess they created as well but I digress ;-) How abut the Civic HX ICE? What if the Civic LX was to use the Lean Burn ULEV rated HX&#146;s ICE but with the HCH&#146;s taller gearing? 50 mpg on the highway with 0 - 60 times still easily in the 11- 12 second range w/ a stick? And the Focus … The Mazda engineers aren&#146;t as good as the Honda or Toyota engineers but someone posted in the Escape Hybrid forums that an engineer received 60 mpg with the Atkinsonized 2.3 in a 2WD Escape Hybrid. Imagine the Atkinsonized (129 HP - 130 or so Ft.-Lb&#146;s of torque but I will have to look it up later) in a specialty high mileage version of the Focus ZX3/ZX5 with the thinner Integrity&#146;s of the 04 Prius and a taller fifth gear? 45 - 50 mpg on the highway and a PZEV to boot! What about Honda&#146;s recently in house developed 2.2 L iCDTi available in the Accord Saloon overseas now? If they were to make that in a 1.0, 1.3, 1.5 L variant, you are talking Euro V spec&#146;s with 60 + on the highway and 0 - 60 times in the 9 - 10 second range in a Civic or Fit/Insight sized automobile.

    ___This is what I am talking about. A Hybrid with its $3,000 to a possibly $6,000 premium (in the case of the RXh price premium being rumored) for such a small increase in fuel economy vs. the off the shelf capability the automobile manufacturers could have already given to us …

    ___What I am hoping for is that there will be Echo&#146;s, Corolla&#146;s, or Toyota&#146;s Hyper mileage Hybrid&#146;s w/ HSD available for a cost that makes sense and in quantities most can afford. Maybe a $2,000 premium but I highly doubt that this premium will be that low anytime soon … Honda is readying there non-Hybrid European import &#147;Fit&#148; with the HCH&#146;s 1.3 L gas ICE for US consumption but when it will arrive is anyone&#146;s guess. It should receive a 55 - 60 mpg EPA estimate on the highway (possibly?) and has 4 doors albeit a relatively small hatchback vehicle (Prius I size). In other words, small won&#146;t necessarily be in for everybody but for those wanting to increase fuel economy without having to pay in the low to mid 20&#146;s or higher for a Hybrid, there should be other much less costly options.

    ___On the clean the air front, PZEV&#146;s should be mandated for all 4 bangers to start. Even if the automobile manufacturers said they would only warranty the Emissions HW for 80,000 miles like the PZEV&#146;s are outside of Ca. and a few others, I would be willing to live with that knowing a PZEV is that much cleaner then ULEV or what is really on our highways and byways.

    ___What the above would do is lower our dependence on foreign oil supplies and clean our air immediately w/ the off the shelf changes any Honda, Toyota, or Ford engineer could do almost in his sleep. $20 - $27,000 for ULEV - PZEV based Hybrid&#146;s aren&#146;t the answer in my opinion irregardless of the 100,000 or so that will possibly sell this year alone. Get the inexpensive green high mileage machines to the masses now instead of the few very expensive hybrids would be a real start for all concerned. That is if you can live with 10 - 12 second to 60 automobiles we do with the Hybrid&#146;s available to us today?

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Let's take a few hours breather on the issue, shall we?

    Agree to disagree and move on.

    Just a few comments (pshycho-babble) to remember...there doesn't have to be a right or wrong; trying to be right doesn't have to mean making someone else wrong.
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Do we need to discuss 0-60 for Focus, Corolla, Civic, Prius etc. in a thread meant for Accord/Camry Hybrids?

    Well, when the Accord Hybrid does arrive this Fall, expect it to do it in 6.5s or less (with automatic transmission). That would be about the same or better than Accord V6.

    And not only that, I expect it to beat cars like Mazda3/Focus in terms of mileage (city and highway), have cleaner emissions, and at least match the mileage from cars like Civic/Corolla. That doesn't sound bad at all, does it?
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Robertsmx:

    ___Sorry, no we don&#146;t. Hopefully the 04 Prius stuff will fade away here as well as I am looking forward to the Accord hybrid myself.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
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    john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Hopefully the 04 Prius stuff will fade away

    Not going to happen.

    Real-World annual averages of around 50 MPG will be revealed. (My last 3 tanks have been 54 MPG.)

    The acceleration will be overwhelming confirmed as completely realistic. (Flooring it to merge onto the highway is totally unnecessary.)

    Supply will catch up with demand. You'll see them everywhere, especially with the new hybrid SUVs helping to endorse the technology.

    Then accept the fact that when the Camry & Accord hybrids become common, Prius will become the icon for change... the one that inspired this new age in automotive history.

    Get used to it.

    JOHN
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    rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    >> Prius will become the icon for change

    Thats the feeling I have, there will be lots of 'hybrids' out there but the Prius will be on the leading edge (or the bleeding edge if you prefer to look at it that way)
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    bamacarbamacar Member Posts: 749
    The point was this is the Accord Hybrid and Camry Hybrid board. Take the Prius stuff to the Prius board as the moderator said.
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    andy71andy71 Member Posts: 96
    Anyone knows if the Hybrid Camry will have a 4 or 6 cylinder gasoline engine? I hope they offer both.
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    moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Where are the specs. for these vehicles? What are the prices? Is there any value discussing two vehicles that are not even sold?

    I just read some of the posts at the start and end of this discussion and nearly every post was off topic. Why not just create an off topic hybrid discussion to argue in?
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    These are &#147;future vehicles&#148;, so it would have made more sense to see this topic in that forum. But, I understand why it sits here.

    Accord Hybrid arrives this Fall. It will carry the V6 with IMA and specs are speculations at this point. Knowing Honda, we&#146;re unlikely to know greater (official) details of the car more than couple of months in advance. Another month, or two, to go. Rumors are…
    260-270 HP
    $28K-$30K (this assumes Hybrid will match or beat feature content of EXV6)

    I don&#146;t think Camry Hybrid is due until sometime next year.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Was your post on-topic? If you don't like hybrids, why hang around hybrid boards making negative posts?

    Several sources, including newspapers and car mags, have stated the Camry hybrid would be coming as a 2006 model. But I have not seen anything as to when it would be released. Given Toyota's history in releasing new models, it could be anywhere from February 2005 to late 2005. The most logical initial powertrain for the CH would be the V6 HSD powertrain from the HCH, but since the 4-cylinder engine of the Camry is used in other models, and it has good power, that would be a good application for the CH too.
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    moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Backy- At no time have I ever stated I do not like hybrids. You are making an assumption and it is an incorrect one.

    Capturing previously wasted energy, storing it and using it at later time makes perfect sense to me.
    Prius Hybrid and Honda Civic Hybrid are great machines for improving upon mpg.

    When questioning the distorted data, false data, thinking driven by unabashed enthusiasm rather than objective analysis that is repeated every day is viewed as negativity, then I say take off your blinders.

    What I do not like is a comparison topic of A vs. B when A is not available for sale, specs. are not available, prices not available, performance not available and the exact same situation is true of B.

    Bottom line is there are 150 posts here in a topic that is a comparison of Accord and Camry hybrid and if you take the time to read all the posts you will find that 90% plus are not discussing the actual Accord and Camry hybrids specifically. Which is understandable as NEITHER OF THEM EXIST FOR PURCHASE AND COMPARISON.

    Do you even know with certainty how many cylinders the engine on the Camry will have?
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you don't like this topic, why don't you leave it to the people who do appreciate it and take advantage of the hundreds of boards here that deal with cars that are already for sale?

    I suggest you take your complaint to the Town Hall people, since they are the ones that support this board and many others that discuss vehicles that are not yet released to the general public. Most of these are in the "Future Vehicles" category, but the moderators decided for whatever reason that "Hybrid Vehicles" was a more appropriate category for this board.

    I assumed you don't like hybrids because I have yet to see a positive post from you regarding hybrids--until the previous post here. I am glad to hear you appreciate hybrids like the HCH and Prius.
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    moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Is the only reason to disagree with me? Is so, so be it.

    What are the specs. for the Accord and Camry hybrid?
    The content of this topic is everywhere and seldom focused on Camry or Accord Hybrid, though Ford Focus, Civic LX, Unleaded fuel futures, Prius, and Corolla are discussed.

    I do like hybrid technology though I do not like the price of entry. And it is not necessary to have a positive outlook on hybrids to participate in the discussion.
    Are only positive comments on hybrids the only allowed input?

    Would be contstructive to discuss the price of the Accord or Camry, unfortunately that is impossible as there is no pricing and all is conjecture.
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    midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Actually ,there is some information avaiailbe on the Accord Hybrid. It will be 270 hp based on current V6 with IMA added, It will use VCM (Variable Cylinder Management) to save on highway cruising and will be available fall 2005. It is speculated it will be fully loaded and be priced slightly under $30k.

    Now what is known about the Camry Hybrid. It will come out as a 2006 model. It will probably use the HSD system. Nothing much else is known.

    This is the way all future car discussions start. The specifices of A "Accord Hybrid" and B "Camry Hybrid" are not know fully immediately prior to the actual car release. As the date gets closer a better comparison data will develop. Honda is usually pretty tight about infromation until the car is availble to buy, Toyota is much looser on releasing information and will probably have public information on the Camry Hybrid first or second quarter 2005.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
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    usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Capturing previously wasted energy, storing it and using it at later time makes perfect sense to me."

    That's one of the many ways HSD, achieve to reduce emission and save gas.

    "When questioning the distorted data, false data, thinking driven by unabashed enthusiasm rather than objective analysis "

    Which specific data is false and distorted? Which points were not objectively analyze? I can revisit the case because I respect your views. Who knows, maybe you'll have a good point.

    Dennis
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