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If the actual street price difference between a Camry Hybrid and a similarly equipped regular Camry is more than $5000, I don't think it's worth it.
Also, what's the acceleration performance gonna be?
Somewhere between the regular I4 and the V6? If the peformance is closer to the V6, then the premium might be somewhat justified.
I'd expect about $3000 difference.
"Somewhere between the regular I4 and the V6? If the peformance is closer to the V6, then the premium might be somewhat justified."
Herein you have the problem. In order to get better MPG, they have to use a smaller engine, and the HSD only partially compensates. I am not sure if the smaller engine will get high enough MPG, but it will probably be somewhere near the ICE I4 Camry in performance, perhaps a bit better acceleration. However, the acceleration would be at a high penalty in MPG; you would have to drive it hard to come close to the V6 capabilities.
As others have noted, all this is speculation until the car comes out and people actually drive it.
Ford escape 2.3 2WD = 22 / 25
Ford escape H 2WD = 36 / 31 (+64% / +24% )
RX3300 AWD = 18 / 24
RX400H = 31 /27 (+72% / +12%)
Highlander 3.3 2WD = 19 /25
Highalnder hybrid 2WD = 33 /28 (+74% / 12%)
Now, my guesswork,
Camry 2.4 = 25 / 34
Camry 2.4H(atkinson) = 43 / 41 , 0-60 in mid 8 seconds
Camry 3.3 = 21 /29
Camry 3.3H = 37 / 33, maybe 0-60 in 6.3-6.5
Ford escape H = 29-30
RH/Highlander H = 25-26
Accord H = 30
Prius II = 48
Prius I = 45
HCH manual = 48
HCH auto = 45
Most likely;
Camry 2.4 H = 38-40
Camry 3.3 H = 31-33
Interestingly, 2006 HCH is already here EPA 50/50
Actual mileage as tested in 55 mile loop side by side revealed HCH 43 and prius 42.
Both have similar prices, Prius has better interior space with folding rear seat but the HCH navigation option has better features. Mmmmmmm, time to hit the showrooms and compae.
This has been discussed ad infinitum in the Prius thread if you want more detail and more information.
Cheers,
MidCow
P.S. - Got infinite mileage this morning, rode a bike
Camry 2.4 H = 38-40
Camry 3.3 H = 31-33 "
This sounds right to me as well...
All cars get lower efficiency in town because they start and stop. When you accelerate, the engine converts chemical energy in the gasoline/air to kinetic energy. It is not lost until you stop, where the kinetic energy is converted to heat and "lost"-- meaning that it is no longer useful to the driver. All non-hybrid cars do this and this is why they do not get better gas mileage in town than on the highway. They will, however, get better gas mileage cruising at say 55 mph than they will at 75 mph.
In a hybrid, that energy is converted back into chemical energy and stored in the battery by the drivetrain, where it can again be converted into kinetic energy. This does not occur without losses since the motors are not 100% efficient and do create some heat. Synchronous motors tend to be around 90% efficient. This allows a hybrid to eliminate braking losses while driving in town.
Simply eliminating these losses, in the abscence of other factors, would make the in-town mileage equal to the highway mileage, which also does not incur braking losses. The difference is from the difference in losses that go to air and tire resistance primarily and to viscous losses in the engine at higher RPMs secondarily. The elimination of braking losses is enabled by the use of the battery and the electric motors, but the real mechanism which causes in town to actually be higher than (and not simply equal to) highway is air resistance, which was my only point.
Now shifting gears to dicission of highway speeds, yes wind velocity, rolling tire resistance ( i.e friction), and CD ( coefficient of drag, the lower the better) impact highway mileage. And yes at 75 you get poorer mileage than you do at 55 mph. But this is true of any car and has absolutely nothing to do with Hybrids. And LOL " viscous losses in the engine at higher RPMs secondarily" I do agree with your assessment of changes in highway efficiency , but what the heck does that have to do with hybrids getting better mileage in the city than ICE only cars??? The answer: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
YMMV,
MidCow
LOL Yes I understand, ICEs are about 60% efficient, diesels about 80%, and electric motors/generators are actually closer to 95% effciency.
The highest efficiency gas ICE is from prius and it is only 35%. Diesel holds the title at 38-40%.
All cars get lower efficiency in the City. The only reason the Hybrid HSD ( Toyota/Lexus) gets better mileage is because the electric motors use previously stored chemical energy ( batteries, i.e. potential energy) and convert it to motion (kinectic) through electric mtoors. The Honda IMA system is similar whereby the electric motor augments the ICE at low speeds;
The reason hybrid gets good gas mileage at city is due to 2 things. One is regenerative braking. The other is the ability to produce low horsepower efficiently (either ICE or electric) 2-10 hp, needed for low speed cruising.
Your regular engine is not efficient at that low hp running, city mileage/low speed mileage gets hurt. HSD and IMA has there own advantages and disadvantages. Toyota has better mileage but honda is catching up with the 06 HCH.
And yes at 75 you get poorer mileage than you do at 55 mph. But this is true of any car and has absolutely nothing to do with Hybrids.
True, Theoritically, the nonhybrid should even have better mileage at the highway since there is no added weight from the battery. But this is reality Roads have intersection, curves, stop signs, traffic jam. Even on regular travel to work most people only get city rating while on the highway. You have to keep up with the traffic and mileage becomes secondary to safety.
Now for the twist, hybrid are geared for economy and has to the ability to glide, just like shifting neutral on a stick shift. This helps a lot on highway mileage.
You can use a conservation of energy analysis to determine the mileage that you'll get. You can assume that the ICE produces energy at a particular efficiency. If there were no losses from friction, you would be able to travel at a particular elevation forever. Unfortunately, we lose energy in lots of places. The major ones that I can think of are:
--Wind
--Tire Rolling Resistance
--Transmission Losses
--Engine Losses (proportional to RPM^2)
--Alternator (your 10 kW stereo, AC)
--Water Pump
--Braking Losses
Now, to get higher efficiency, we need to eliminate or reduce some or all of the above. The hybrid reduces the Braking losses. It also reduces the engine losses, mainly through the use of a smaller engine, which will have fewer friction losses than a larger engine. Note that on the highway no car experiences the braking losses.
The energy recycled by the battery/motor combination was originally produced by the ICE so the fact that it is recycled simply reduces the braking losses that occur during the EPA's city driving test. If they just drove around in the top gear at 40 mph or whatever speed would make sense with the top gear's ratio, then they would achieve better mileage than on their highway tests, which do not have stops, but are done at a higher speed.
Now, this concept is the important one and requires some understanding of math. The friction in the fluids grows at the square of the velocity. That is why the wind makes a big difference at high speeds and almost none at low speeds. You get the same effect in the engine oil, transmission oil, and bearing grease.
Remember, we were talking about why the hybrid gets better mileage in the city as compared to the highway so there is no need to compare the hybrid to the non-hybrid. If we look at the losses that I listed above, the engine losses, transmission losses, and tire losses all get smaller on a per-mile basis at lower speeds. The fact that the braking losses are reduced (lets say eliminated, even though that isn't true, even if we use your 95% number) would simply make the city mpg the same as the highway mpg if all of the other losses stayed the same. They don't. They get worse at high speeds so that is why the city mpg is higher.
Your post is full of quite a few made up numbers. Lots of enthusiasm though.
"The energy recycled by the battery/motor combination was originally produced by the ICE so the fact that it is recycled simply reduces the braking losses that occur during the EPA's city driving test"
This is what I said all along, you sure have a funny way of admitting you were wrong and agreeing with me.
Yes, I threw out some numbers on the efficiency; it wasn't worth it to look it up. Gas engines are very inefficient, diesel are better and electric, at least brushless, are very efficient. However, no energy conversion is 100% efficient.
Anyway thanks for finally agreeing with me that the stored energy in batteries ,derived from regenerative braking, makes hybrids more efficient in the CITY cycle, which is why the EPA of the Prius is 60/51
YMMV,
MidCow
Eliminating the braking losses would only make city efficiency equal to highway efficiency, which also does not have braking losses because you don't use your brakes while cruising at a constant highway speed.
The hybrid system makes the vehicle more efficient in the city than it would otherwise be, but does not make it more efficient in the city than the same vehicle is on the highway. That difference comes from other factors, as I already attempted to explain.
1) Kinetic energy to AC current done by the motor (~90% efficient)
2) AC to DC conversion through full wave rectifier ( ~ 82 % efficient)
3) DC to AC conversion by PWM (~90% efficient)
4) AC to kinetic by motor (~90%)
To get the overall efficiency we multiply .9*.82*.9*.9=0.597. So the regenerative braking is only about 60% efficient. This is a best case estimate. Toyta only claims that 30% of the energy of braking is actually recycled. A large part of this is that the mechanical brakes do some of the braking in quick stops.
The regenerative braking is not as effective as most people realize. It is a concept which has been highly advertised and can be readily understood, at least in concept, by the general public. The problem is than many people think that this energy comes for free, which it doesn't. It was originally produced by the ICE. That is, unless you plug your modified Prius in at night. Then the energy comes from a power plant, which is far more efficient than the ICE.
That beng said with a 4 cylinder HSD type hybrid in the upcoming Camry is should get 45 city and 40 highway . 45 is 5 miles per gallon higher than 40 miles per gallon highway.
The normal 4 cylinder automatic Camry currently is EPA rated at 24/34 the city mileage is 10 less than the highway mileage because it is not augmented by electric motors.
Taking the ICE 4cylinder Camry as a base then the hybdrid Camry would be (45-24)/24= 87.5% more efficient in the city and (40-34/34) = 17.6% more efficient on the highway.
The Hybrid Camry will be more efficient in the City than an equivalent ICE Camry.
Also, comparing Toyota's HCS to Honda's IMA technoogy , Toyota as a full hybrid can run elctric only whereas the IMA (except for the new Civic hybrid) cannot. However, an interesting observation: Honda sems to do two things that Toyota doesn't: (1) It tends to meet EPA estimates and (2) tends to be more efficnet on the highway ( why spin MG1 when the traction battery is already fully charged ??).
Cheers,
MidCow
P.S.- It is hard to judge the knowledge and experience of forum particpants. I believe you may have misjudged me
midcow-
It has nothing to do with HSD; the HCH also gets better city mileage, as I recall, and it has a CVT. The higher mileage is achieved by the electric motors and turning off the engine while stopped.
The original statement--made by you-- was that the prius and other Toyota hybrids get better city than highway mileage. A statement followed that this was due to the electric motors and turning off the engine while stopped. I stated that the regenerative braking and turning off the engine while stopped can only explain parity between the city and highway mileage; not an increase. The increase comes from other factors.
If they use the same technology as the Hy-Highlander you can expect ~ 270 HP in the new V6 Camry. V8 power with Corolla/Civic gas mileage and emissions... and the styling of a Lexus.
Interesting thought. With the Hybrid Camrys being built in KY in 4c or 6c configurations ... Is the Prius long for this world?
People buy Camrys like they do any staple - with little or no hesitation. Imagine a long time Camry owner deciding between a Prius and a Hybrid 4c Camry with avg mpg in the 40's. It would seem to be a nobrainer.
The Prius attracted the 'early adopters' and the techno-philes and won all the awards. I'd venture that the Hy-Camry will bring the technology into the mainstream and possibly make it commonplace.
FWIW
kdhspyder
First let me say that I have a Toyota 4runner (2004) and I love it. I live in a part of the country where I wouldn't get out of my driveway 4 months out of the year without it!
As for gas-guzzling. Guess what i average 23 MPG with mix city/hwy.....better than some cars. "Overpolluting"??? Show me a statistic that labels my SUV as being more pollutant than another car such as a Camry. I believe Toyota is well known for building clean and safe engines.
If you really are concerned about pollution through automobiles then SUV's should be your least concern. Maybe you should ban all cars that are older than 10 years old......that would make more sense.
TY
Oh no, not MMO again. Please don't resurrect that horrible discussion.
MMO?
Huh? I thought the Camry Hybrid will be based on I4, not V6...
Toyota's Camry Hybrid page
Most of Camry Hybrid's electrical powertrain components will be imported from Japan, but the 4-cylinder engine will be assembled in Georgetown, Kentucky
Hong.
An HONEST, repeatable 35 mpg in a Camry with what would amount to nearly-6cyl performance would be a winner for me, and make all of the diesel alternatives that we still haven't seen mostly moot. Price it in the mid $20s - say a real-world transaction price of about $24-25k - and they won't be able to make them quickly enough.
We don't need another $30k performance exercise like the Honda - I like the car, but it doesn't represent for me what the potential for this technology really is.
Of course, If I were Honda I would be working on a 4cyl Accord hybrid also.
Cheers,
MidCow
In the end, real life fuel economy between HAH and Camry hybrid may be negligible.
What I'm really curious about, now, is HCCI (Homogenous Charge Compression Ignition) engine technology that Honda is supposed to showcase in its prototypical form early 2006. And I hope it would be ready by the time next HAH comes around.
Here is an article on it
Because of the low fuel economy readings in my test of the Toyota Camry Hybrid, I asked for, and received, the car for a quick weekend of re-testing.
We drove the car to my daughter's, a trip of 375 miles, more than four times the mileage of the original test.
My mileage in this second test was 37.4 mpg, and it consisted of mostly highway miles, not the hybrid's ideal environment since they usually do better in urban driving. According to the onboard computer, I nudged over 40 mpg with cruise control set at 70 mph for one stretch.
I feel this is a closer indication of the kind of mileage one might expect with the Camry Hybrid, not the mid-20 mpg I achieved in my original test.
So Sorry...but thanks to the sharpest Internet audience, I have been corrected.
John Heilig>
DrFill
I second that.
Pacific coast highway: 46.5mpg
Rush hours: 32.3mpg
Mountaineering/high-speed fwy: 38.3mpg
BTW,
0-60mph 7.3s
1/4mile 15.6s
Compared with Camry SE v6: 26.3mpg
0-60 6.1s, 1/4mile 14.6
It turns out to be true (2 years later). See the real world mpg for 2WD from http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/
Accord 2WD Auto Hybird - 29 mpg (ULEV)
Escape 2WD eCVT Hybrid - 31 mpg (AT-PZEV)
The SUV that is cleaner than a family car. A full hybrid vs. mild hybrid.
Dennis
Toyota even out-did my estimates. TCH ICE makes 147 hp and MG2 makes 105 kW.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Camry hybrid with 4 cylinder engine can have performance of an Accord V6 with fuel economy of a Honda Civic!"
It turns out 0-60 for TCH is 7.3 sec vs. Accord V6 7.0 sec and get better fuel economy than the Civic EX Auto (last gen Civic 32/37 mpg, as I made this statement almost 2 years ago).
We have yet to see 30-50, 50-70, and top gear acceleartion numbers.
TCH peaks power at 192 hp and Accord EX V6 peaks at 240 hp. Peak power say little about car's performance with the introduction of full hybrids.
Dennis
2 vehicles with equal weight. One has 253hp the other has 155hp. One goes 0-60mph in 6.1. One goes 0-60mph in 8.9.
Which one should get better fuel economy? It is a surprise that the numbers are so close.
A performance mild hybrid versus a slow full hybrid that weigh the same. Which should get better gas mileage? Obvious to some; a surprise to others.
Would the electric motors sustain running at 75 MPH without ICE for two minutes or so while the battery drained?
How do you define "run"? Prius' ICE will always run above 42 mph because how the PSD was arranged. It does not mean the gas is consuming all the time. There are times when I go downhill @70 mph and get 99.99 mpg. For Camry, it might be different since it has additional planetary gearset as a Speed Reduction Unit.
If the ICE is on when the battery is full (not really full, only 80%) then only the ICE is powering the car. Otherwise, HSD can use both MGs to consume the battery. HSD can use the battery at any moment on demand. It usually have the battery SOC of about 60% so when you slow down, regen brake can fill it up.
Dennis
Cheers,
MidCow
P.S.- If you will look back this has already been discussed ad infinitum and you were actaully in the discussions already so I am curious as to your questions ? :confuse:
I heard some guys could achieve 46MPG for their HAHs on highway. Is that possible? My HAH '05 never runs over 50 miles on highway so I dont know. But I did get about 38MPG on < 50 mile highway trips.
The point is, not always. Not when HSD is gliding -- going downhill, feathering acceleartor, etc....
When there is combustion in ICE, MG1 will always generate electricity. The reason is that only 27% of torque from ICE goes to the wheel. Prius ICE max torque is 82 lbs-ft. 27 percent of 82 lbs-ft is 22 lbs-ft of torque... max. You tell me if that's enough to keep 2,890 lbs car going on the highway at 50, 60, 70 mph! That's the reason MG2 needs to help out with it's enormous torque with electricity from MG1 (or battery).
"That is why Honda's IMA systme can achieve better highway than city mileage"
I disagree. On the highway, you are constantly loosing 15-20 hp keeping the car at a constant speed due to environmental / friction / rolling resistences. In city speed this loss is much less. Why IMA gets higher in the highway then? And why does 06 HCH get the same for both(50/50mpg)? According to your logic, 06 HCH is less efficient on the highway? And why Prius still beats it with 51 mpg on highway -- yet Prius has 1.5 liter displacement ICE compare to 1.3 liter HCH ICE?
Yes, we discussed this before and you either dismissed those questions or could not answer them.
Dennis
Does the TCH drive much nicer than the Hybrid Accord?
Is there any sportiness to it?
How does each rank on the LUXO scale? Do you feel like you are in an Accord or Camry, or do you feel like you are in a Lexus ES?
Are the seats supportive? I just rode in my buddy's Ininiti G35 and I was surprised at how crummy the seats are. (then again, we all know that Nissan put its money into horsepower and not much else in that car - not that that is a bad thing, but I am over 200 pounds and over 6 feet, and I need a decent seat)
Interested in overall perceptions of the TCH HAH and how each compares to other vehicles you considered.
Also (of course), real world highway MPG, city MPG, and blended MPG would be interesting.
My needs are not that extreme - I'd like 30 mpg (mixed), luxury and sportiness (and I want to carry adults in the back, on occasion - so a nice coupe would do). (yes, I know the GS450H will not get me 30 mpg mixed, but it is such a sweet car....)
I'm now getting 38.6 mpg AVERAGE over 7400 miles. I get anywhere from 37mpg in the hills to 41 driving around home. I had a run of 45 mpg while driving 300 miles at Nags head in flat land.
While I can't call the car sporty in handling, I do like the looks which I understand is a personal preference issue. The handling is acceptable, especially since I have slowed down. On the interstate it's not even an issue.
I especially like the fact that I can cruise 600+ miles on a tank of gas should I want to be able to get somewhere and back without having to get gas (like if / when long lines or shortages return?)
If we want to move away from dependence on oil and want better technology to move towards this goal, the best way to let the "big guys" know that this is what we want is by buying the existing hybrids. We cannot expect the car companies to invest in this techonology without any cost to us. Think about this as an investment in future better technology.
P.S. my mom owned an accord - no matter how good they get it, i will always second think it before buying. I have owned a camry for the past 7 years and have never given me trouble. so camry it it!
I am curious as to your statement "the best way to let the "big guys" know that this is what we want is by buying the existing hybrids. " People were buying Prius hybrids as fast as they could be produce. So according to your logic, Toyota should have ramped up the production of the prius and not developed any other hybrids.
I find it rather humerous that as Toyta passed Ford in sales and become larger that their QA has fallen off.
YMMV,
MidCow
i>When there is combustion in ICE, MG1 will always generate electricity. The reason is that only 27% of torque from ICE goes to the wheel. Prius ICE max torque is 82 lbs-ft. 27 percent of 82 lbs-ft is 22 lbs-ft of torque... max. You tell me if that's enough to keep 2,890 lbs car going on the highway at 50, 60, 70 mph! That's the reason MG2 needs to help out with it's enormous torque with electricity from MG1 (or battery).
Your calculations appear correct except you did not factor in a TCH using either a johnson rod or canutin valve technology. Either or these options will decrease the coefficient of drag on the windward side of the Jib therby causing a rebound effect to the axis of evil. When this occurs you may see the MG3 react with a slight thermonuclear reaction which in any case liquifies the ashphalt road surface therby reducing the drag on the right front tire. All other tires wanting to keep up will therby submit additional torque to the ICECUBE maker. This will supply 30 to 40 additional refreshing beverages per 600 miles trip. Although this does not increase FE it does make for a more enjoyable trip and after a couple of road sodas who give a snoot about 2-3 extra mpg! :P
ROTFLMAO
MidCow.
The thermonuclear reaction I refer to is almost imperceptible to all but the trained eye. That is in part why I believe the other poster's calculations are way off. Now you bring in Sunamis which have a terrible impact on FE particularly in low lying coastal areas. I am sure the other poster forgot to factor that in also when attempting to figure out how the damn MG1 and MG2 thing-a-ma-bobs actualy function.
I am more concerned that my NAV system be able to find the shortest route between two points, in particular taverns, not in low lying areas or those sucseptable to earthquakes. Second opinon is that there is no true global warming happening. It is only the perception that the earth has become warmer by the masses of people currently wearing flesh parkas. Enjoy!